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Old 10-02-2003, 08:35 AM   #1
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Korriban and Bombs

I think that all forms of bombs/mines should be removed from Korriban

every time i play, i get spammed by thermal detonators and trip mines....and attackers are helpless against them, because they have no guns..........

so either add guns to the map, or remove mines......cos sabers + mines only will just mean every1 defending will go demolitionist and just throw endless amounts of detonators at the attackers, which are helpless because they have nothing to shoot back


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Old 10-02-2003, 08:43 AM   #2
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Don't start whining immediately when you can't counter something.. Instead try to find solution such as using protection and jumping when not using it (like I do when Im not using demolitions class.) But I must admit that you are somewhat right, light side players need thermals too because few good darkies can take out a whole team of light siders.


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Old 10-02-2003, 09:26 AM   #3
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it would be nice if the dark jedi only had one typ of demo equip, but being dark they probably should be allowed to cheat
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Old 10-02-2003, 10:20 AM   #4
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that level appears flawed no matter what you do.

Removing explosives from that level makes it impossible to defend the 2, 3, 4, and 6 objectives. Too many passage ways and not enough effective ways to deal with absorb, speeding, or mind tricking (or any combination of the above) runners. There's very little saber combat as is, aside from the occasional twirling newbie who's usually attacking his teammates... and imperials using katas on the walkways for objectives 1 and 5.

AFAIK, you can saber throw detonators (and the defenseless demolition guys).

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Old 10-02-2003, 11:50 AM   #5
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Quote:
I think that all forms of bombs/mines should be removed from Korriban
That is your choice on your server, but I firmly disagree. Taking away explosives makes the Demolition class pointless. In addition, the map was designed with explosives in mind.

Without them the defending team has a much harder time stopping the attackers (chasing them down to saber them takes too long when they're speeding by or have Protect/Absorb and they're constantly healing each other).

The attacking team has too hard a time blowing up Ragno's tomb and other targets if all they have to use are sabers (especially with that Rancor eating everybody).

The bombs were put in the level for a reason, and it just becomes MORE frustrating if they're gone.


Quote:
every time i play, i get spammed by thermal detonators and trip mines....and attackers are helpless against them, because they have no guns..........
You can detonate enemy explosives with your own. In addition, you can survive some explosions by using Protect. Often an attacker will need to sacrifice himself by detonating the explosives so his allies can pass unharmed. That's just part of how Siege works. It's not all about individual glory.

A good point about saber throw, I'll have to try that next time I play. You can also Push people into their own placed explosives!

Quote:
so either add guns to the map,
The reason there aren't guns in the map is because you're all Jedi or Sith. The point is to have sabers, but the bombs are there for defense and for destroying targets. Raven knew what they were doing.

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or remove mines......cos sabers + mines only will just mean every1 defending will go demolitionist and just throw endless amounts of detonators at the attackers, which are helpless because they have nothing to shoot back
Not necessarily, if the defenders get past the explosives, the attackers need somebody strong to bring them in. And you are limited in the number of explosives you can use (notice there are no ammo recharge stations). Once you're out of explosives that's it, until you die, and that takes awhile to respawn in Siege as you know.

The map was intended to be played with explosives, which is why classes on both teams have them. Go ahead and disable them on your server, but don't be surprised if it's suddenly unbalanced and frustrating!

This reminds me of the people who disable force on their Siege servers (what's the point of that??).


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Old 10-02-2003, 03:00 PM   #6
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hmm i agree iwth Blankie's post, the map is kinda unbalanced no matter what (In my opinion)

i guess i'll just stick to desert and hoth


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Old 10-03-2003, 10:06 AM   #7
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If they keep on doing the same old thing, the it would be spam




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Old 10-03-2003, 07:44 PM   #8
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"If they keep on doing the same old thing, the it would be spam"

Spam gets such a bad rap.

As far as online gaming is concerned, most (but not all) forms of 'spam' are simply moves/combinations that are used repeatedly because they are more effective than the alternatives.

You can't fault people for playing to win.

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Old 10-05-2003, 08:20 AM   #9
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Yeah exactly. If somebody is attacking my base, and if I let him get through I lose, don't you think I'm going to shoot him more than once?

I'll keep "spamming" until he dies and the threat to my team's victory is removed. ; )

I'd expect the same if I were attacking his base. It would be boring if I encountered no resistance and got through without anyone seeing me (funny once, everytime... boring).

I also did a test with another player on my server, and all Demolitions classes are limited to placing 10 explosives. Only ten!

If you try to place more, they start to disappear. In JK2 that number was like 20, so they actually limited you even more in JA.

Now of course if you have ten people on your team and they all are demolitionists, they can all theoretically place ten, which would amount to 100 bombs... heh, that might lag the server a bit!

The Dark Jedi Demolitionist starts with 20 Trip Mines. He can place a max of ten in the entire map at once and he doesn't get more until he dies (no pickups on the level). Ditto for the Light Jedi Demolitionist (and his Det Packs all detonate if he dies, as is fair, since he's the attacker, not the defender). Thermal Detonators are powerful and much easier to throw in JA (than JK2) but they are also much easier to push back in the face of the thrower.

But you get the idea. Usually there are maybe a max of two demos on each team, so that's 20 bombs. Big deal. Usually they're clustered so they all go off at once and kill maybe one or two guys at a time. One guy can sacrafice himself and detonate them all, so the others can rush through before the Demos have a chance to replenish the minefield.


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Old 10-05-2003, 12:13 PM   #10
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so yesterday, my team just *destroyed* a bunch of demo dark siders with ease. Finished in something like 5-6 minutes on a 10 player server.

Tip: JEDI TECH. Force protection level 3, just charge the trip miners as he's planting. He detonates himself, you take 10-15 damage. Tech's have increased force regeneration, so heal is actually super-effective (which they have level 3 of)... so just turn off protect, and heal back up to full. They also have team heal level 2. Tech groups are just abusive at that point. Top that all off with Absorb level 3 for any heavies you see

Mind trick is also helpful for dealing with those stationary kata users on the stairs (objective 1 + 5 usually). I haven't met one use sight, even after getting taken down like that. Most demo's are so self-absorbed with planting they don't even use sight. Better players will though.

Thermal detonators are a bit harder to counter... especially vrs jumping/throwers (moreso, when they come in packs). Luckily, the majority of players are still stuck on making huge chains of useless trip mines

Increased force regen also makes 'spamming' katas on doors/objects that require destroying super fast.

So give that a try.

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Old 10-10-2003, 10:24 AM   #11
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Yup, been playing some of the other classes now (not just Assault and Demolitions) and you're right, they have some pretty slick benefits.

The only thing I'm not sure about is the Dark Jedi Tech. He can dispense ammo but it doesn't seem to replenish anything for teammates... bug?


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Old 10-10-2003, 03:09 PM   #12
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Quote:
The only thing I'm not sure about is the Dark Jedi Tech. He can dispense ammo but it doesn't seem to replenish anything for teammates... bug?
yeah, like you said in the server.

Its useless.




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Old 10-10-2003, 08:58 PM   #13
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Hrm... that's odd. Then again, I don't think using the ammo dispensers ever gave throwable items. Maybe the tech's ammo is considered the same as the ammo dispenser?

That makes the dark tech just a tad bit more useless... I wonder if there's any point in using anything besides assaults and demo's. You could probably get away with pure demo on most servers too...

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Old 10-12-2003, 02:52 AM   #14
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Yeah, I played around with the Dark Jedi Tech and he can't repair walls or damaged crystal projectors (in the red crystal room) or Ragnos's coffin.

So essentially all he's good for is healing people he's near or energizing them (which can be beneficially for kata spamming).

I'm not sure what they intended with the ammo dispenser for that Tech... either they meant for him to give TD/Trip Mine ammo, in which case he'd be super super valuable, or they didn't mean to give him the dispensor, in which case they should remove it to avoid confusing people if it does nothing.

As to what classes to use for Dark Side, it seems liike you could probably get away with just Demo and Assault, although the other classes provide more "fun" ways to kill the Light Siders if you get bored (gripping them into lava, spamming katas, etc).

Though if you use non Demo classes, the Tech can at least keep their mana recharged.


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Old 10-12-2003, 12:16 PM   #15
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Does any class have grip level 3? I thought both assault/heavy had level 2 grip, which is painfully useless (moreso when every light jedi has access to atleast lvl 1 absorb). I don't understand why they couldn't mix powerups a bit more... like give darkside tech team heal. There's already a dark jedi class with a lightside ability. Some level 3 darkside abilities would of been great too... but they only get rage.

I would of loved to see heavies get lvl 3 lightning, drain, and/or grip... but without the increased force regen. Would make a tech/heavy combo viable. Right now it doesn't seem like any of the classes work together on that map... aside from light tech team healing chains.

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Old 10-14-2003, 01:41 PM   #16
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Working together, well that comes with practice and skill.

The Energizer Dark Jedi Tech theoretically can work together with all of the Dark Jedi classes other than the Demolitionist, both for Katas and Dark Powers.

Nobody has Level 3 Grip on that map, but remember, Crystal holders can only use Force Jump and have limited mana regen, so they're totally vulnerable to the power (and any others you choose to use on them). Also keep in mind that Absorb Level 1 won't block all the damage/effects from Level 2 Grip (or other higher level Dark side powers).

Besides, we all know the main thing that's good about Grip 3 is using it to toss people off cliffs. There are no bottomless pits on Siege_Korriban. However, you can easily grab somebody in mid-jump (over the lava) and release them, or simply hold them up for the other Dark Jedi to slice them to bits or shoot them full of lightning.

The Dark Jedi Scout and Heavy Weapons can themselves with drain, but the rest of the Dark Side team has to rely on their Techs to heal them at close range (not so hard if they're standing around, whereas the guys on offense need a team healer becuase they're running around all the time).


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Old 10-14-2003, 07:40 PM   #17
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blah... my response got eaten by the lagginess that is these forums

I'll paraphase what I wrote...

- Energizer hasn't worked for me in actual practice. Too many demo defenders (good thing probably, since they seem to be more effective at it). Kata spamming assumes an endless amount of lemmings running into you. More often than not, a kata will be avoided and the target will simply run past you.

In the case of door objectives, demolishers jump over kata user, drop det pack, repeat a few times, then detonate.

- Crystal holders have access to all force powers AFAIK. I didn't test mind trick, but I turned blue/green with absorb/protection and did the push/pull thing.

- Absorb1 stops grip 2 from gripping... might deal damage though, but for amount of force paid compared to damage ur probably better off with lightning. Regardless, the damage of grip and lightning are both too easily healed by a light tech. As far as I'm concerned, playing without a light tech is like playing without a demo as darkside.

- Grip 2 doesn't stop momentum well for me at all. Ill grip a guy, they're choking but momentum carries them out of my range. Regardless, all Light jedi with absorb negates the effectiveness of any level grip.

- Bottomless pits and lava are the same thing just with a different look. You die if you hit it.

- Kill yourself. Get more ammo after the "big rush" and your healed. You should play it the same way you would a guns CTF game playing defense. If you don't have time to respawn and defend, you probably don't have time to grab a tech and heal.

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Old 10-15-2003, 05:27 AM   #18
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Quote:
Crystal holders have access to all force powers AFAIK. I didn't test mind trick, but I turned blue/green with absorb/protection and did the push/pull thing.
I guess I need to test this again, I swear that only Force Jump ever works for me while holding a Crystal. But I'll try again and be sure I have absolutely 100 mana points just in case.

Quote:
- Absorb1 stops grip 2 from gripping... might deal damage though, but for amount of force paid compared to damage ur probably better off with lightning.
I might be wrong, I thought that it still slowed you down, which was the point, not to kill them with Grip. If Absorb didn't work with Crystal users (like I thought) then it would have been useful. Again, I'll test that some more.

Quote:
Regardless, the damage of grip and lightning are both too easily healed by a light tech. As far as I'm concerned, playing without a light tech is like playing without a demo as darkside.
What about draining the Light Tech? I know their mana regenerates fast, but we have two Dark Siders with Drain, one with Level 1 (Scout) and one with Level 2 (Heavy Weapons). The other strategy would be to keep her away from her teammates somehow to stop her healing them.

Quote:
- Grip 2 doesn't stop momentum well for me at all. Ill grip a guy, they're choking but momentum carries them out of my range. Regardless, all Light jedi with absorb negates the effectiveness of any level grip.
Could be, probably depends a lot on the skill level of the person being attacked and doing the attacking.

Quote:
- Bottomless pits and lava are the same thing just with a different look. You die if you hit it.
I suppose, although the bottomless pits have a much longer delay between deaths, unless you tap a suicide bind the instant you miss the ledge. Though I guess in Siege you're right, because you already have longer respawn times. Conceded.

Quote:
- Kill yourself. Get more ammo after the "big rush" and your healed. You should play it the same way you would a guns CTF game playing defense. If you don't have time to respawn and defend, you probably don't have time to grab a tech and heal.
Sure. I was just pointing out a bug in the game, and speculating what they were trying to do. If a person didn't need to suicide to get more ammo, it would make them more powerful.


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Old 10-15-2003, 05:48 AM   #19
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Okay, you were right! I re-tested (making sure to have full mana) and ALL of the Force Powers and katas appear to work while holding a crystal.

The ONLY power that is disabled is Force Speed (so the Scout can't speed back with a Crystal).

I didn't try Team Heal, but I assume that works as well. When I played I just used the Scout and assumed since Speed didn't work that all other powers were disabled except Jump.

My mistake!


Btw, I also noticed that player tints (char_color_red/green/blue) work, so you can customize your character a teeny tiny bit in Siege (at least for the Jedi). ; )


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Old 10-15-2003, 06:34 PM   #20
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"I might be wrong, I thought that it still slowed you down, which was the point, not to kill them with Grip. If Absorb didn't work with Crystal users (like I thought) then it would have been useful. Again, I'll test that some more."

Use pull. It's effect is more obvious vrs someone using absorb, plus they get less force back then they would from a grip. Assuming your only goal is to slow the target.

I've had some luck with quick draining a guy seconds before he picks up a crystal leaving him dry... but I think a better method of protecting crystals would be prevention. Not allowing them to get that close to the crystals in the first place... that's the idea anyway


"What about draining the Light Tech? I know their mana regenerates fast, but we have two Dark Siders with Drain, one with Level 1 (Scout) and one with Level 2 (Heavy Weapons). The other strategy would be to keep her away from her teammates somehow to stop her healing them."

Once people get more use to Korriban, I forsee almost entire teams of light techs the same way you have almost entire teams of dark demos. Maybe with a lightside demo/scout here and there just to clear doors faster and retrieve crystals.

I'd love to try out some heavy/assault combinations on that map (drain and grip, assault rages), but most people like sticking to what they know works.... demos.


"The ONLY power that is disabled is Force Speed (so the Scout can't speed back with a Crystal)."

Speed before you pick up the crystal.



Since I'm here... do you know if there are binds to pick your class? I hate when I die and will respawn in 2 seconds but want to change my class but don't have the time to switch without RE-killing myself. Just a huge annoyance having to go to the join screen.

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Old 10-15-2003, 08:57 PM   #21
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Not sure about binding classes, I can't even get the Voice chat binds to work... ; p

Yes, prevention is best, but once they get the Crystal, you have to have backup options.

Quote:
Speed before you pick up the crystal.
I'll try that, I assume you know this works (ie: it doesn't kill Speed the instant you pick up the Crystal). With the Scout that may be enough to get you through the Green crusher tunnel and out the door on your way to the Pedestals.


Yeah, the whole idea of providing multiple classes would be for adaptation. They use one tactic, you use another to counter, etc.

Having different classes working together and complementing each other of course is also desirable.


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Old 10-16-2003, 11:59 PM   #22
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I really hope they included them but I can't find them anywhere if they were included

Do you know if there's a variable that changes the respawn time on siege games? I always thought it was like Day of Defeat's "reinforcements" system... where the first guy dead on your team would start a 10-15 second clock. Anyone who dies within that time will respawn when the first guy does.

But today, I was on a server where I'd respawn 15 seconds always... and the day before I always respawned in 3 seconds. I remember the 3 second one clearly, cause a guy was using a tech + kill bind to throw up layers of forcefields on the extended bridge on Hoth (4on4).

I'm starting to hate all the configurations guys are doing to there server. I can't get consistant saber damage (one server I'm getting whacked for 20 damage from a saber staff, another I die in a hit), consistant respawn time, auto-balanced teams, increased force regen for all jedi, etc etc. Blah....

BTW, do tech's "use" heal shields? I just noticed the dark heavy jedi on korriban has 25 shields but no place to fill them up. Wierd and ultimately useless, but it struck me as odd.

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Old 10-17-2003, 12:23 PM   #23
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Techs can only heal health if I'm not mistaken, unless it was some kind of weird console command for that.

I know for a fact you can alter the default siege respawn times.

There are different respawn times already... if you suicide on purpose its the shortest, longer if you switch teams or classes (IIRC) and longest if you get fragged by the enemy.

Also defenders have shorter respawn times than attackers if I'm not mistaken.

Here's the command as its found in my jampserver.cfg file (haven't tried messing with it yet):

seta g_siegeRespawn "20" (this is the default that I've had on my server since day one) so this must be the "average" time.

To know what settings a server is using before you join, you can click on "Server info" in your in game browser. All Seeing Eye also shows the settings in a little window at the bottom when a server is highlighted.

I'm glad we have the settings, but yeah, some settings are better balanced than others, and to people who don't realize you can check the settings it can be confusing.


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Old 10-17-2003, 08:01 PM   #24
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wierd... I wonder why they gave him 25 shields. Oh well.

you know, it never occured to me to look in all seeing eye for that info. I knew about the server info, but I never use the in game browser so...

and I found what I was looking for. The server was set to 5 for respawn time... explains the forcefield spam nicely.

If that's true about the switching classes/dying taking longer to respawn, I'll make sure my trigger finger is on my kill bind key Just kill myself before switching classes or just before that kill shot hits me.

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Old 10-18-2003, 03:08 AM   #25
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Yeah I'm not positive about suicides bound to /kill vs blowing yourself up stupidly with mines or something like that and if there are differences based on maps or where you are in the map, etc.

But something like that. ; )


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Old 01-28-2005, 02:10 PM   #26
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Post Updates! ; )

I know this is a big thread revival, but I wanted to update some things I said here:

1) The bug where Dark Jedi Tech's on Korriban couldn't provide ammo has been fixed in the 1.01 patch.

Their Ammo Dispenser batteries give explosive ammo to whoever picks them up (including enemy Demolitionists).

They can also "heal ammo" at close range, like they heal health, though sometimes this doesn't work (due to a random bug), but their batteries always work.

Thus the Tech is much more valuable in a support role than he was before.


2) Picking up a Crystal STOPS your Force Speed dead in its tracks and you can't use it again until you drop the crystal. All other Force Powers seem to work, but your mana regeneration is greatly reduced, so you may not have enough mana.


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