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View Poll Results: Would a Jedi Knight game in the NJO be...
Great! 41 47.13%
Okay. 8 9.20%
Lousy. 12 13.79%
The worst thing possible in the history of Star Wars gaming. 26 29.89%
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Thread: Jedi Knight Game in the New Jedi Order, anyone?
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Old 10-16-2003, 06:42 PM   #41
Remirol Nacnud
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I haven't read the books btw, so this is just my first impressions.

The Vong seem a desperate attempt to keep the characters busy. Well, once they've pretty much conquered the galaxy, what is there left? Once all of the Emperor storylines etc are finished with(as I understand it, the remnant is fading in the NJO) so you have to bring an enemy in from another galaxy.

It just gives me the feeling of a childs fantasy. OK, SW is a fantasy story, but it's great because of both the detail of this whole new galaxy in our minds, and the basic storylines(good vs evil) that are shown within it.
But when you continue on to the vong.....it seems more like a kid having a fantasy. "and this happened, and then this happens, then this happens"
I'm not sure if you'll understand what I mean, but I hope you do.

And yes, being a Jedi where the force and your sabre aren't useful would be pretty boring.

But as I understand it the story ends up with Luke travelling to other galaxies to discover a way to defeat the Vong(is that correct?) So perhaps there could be a little something about him discovering a new attunement to the force....or something. Just to take away the "they don't exist in the force" thing.
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Old 10-16-2003, 09:43 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by Remirol Nacnud
The Vong seem a desperate attempt to keep the characters busy. Well, once they've pretty much conquered the galaxy, what is there left? Once all of the Emperor storylines etc are finished with(as I understand it, the remnant is fading in the NJO) so you have to bring an enemy in from another galaxy.
Yeah, I agree completely.

They couldn't end it when they finally finished beating the dead horse that was the evil Empire. Couldn't let the characters have only the problems of stabilizing and restructuring a Galactic Civilization (that's too easy), so gotta bring in the next horde of super-villain armies to put the fate of the galaxy in jeopardy! ...again.


Yeah, it's boring having the same ol' Dark Side adepts/etc. making a play for Galactic Dominance, but the Vong are different! Instead of the Dark Side, they exist outside the Force, and instead of technology, they use specially-evolved organisms and other organics! Wow!

Hmm. Maybe if the New Republic was called the Terrans, and the Jedi Order called the Protoss, it would all fit like a glove!

In any case, the whole galaxy-in-jeopardy situation is just as old as any plot lines anyone else is bored with. What makes the Zerg (oops, I mean Vong) different, is all on the surface, and not within their use in the flow of the storylines.

Not to say the Vong isn't interesting in and of itself, or certain characters/character stories aren't interesting in the NJO era, I don't think it, as a whole, really fits, or was even needed, in the Star Wars EU storyline flow.


And, more to the topic, it's not that a NJO game wouldn't be fun, I'd probably play it if it was a good game, despite my disliking of the whole NJO line...

But don't expect it to just happen, game developers need good markets for such things, you know? It's all about money. And besides, they don't make games FOR YOU. You have to make your ideal game - So in the meantime, look at community-made mods to get any NJO-game fix you have.


I don't like quake, never liked quake, and don't like Star Wars quake. So basically jk2mp.exe never gets used on my computer.

Shaving is not a high priority with Jedi. Would you want to shave with a lightsaber?
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Old 10-17-2003, 01:47 PM   #43
Master_Keralys
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Fitting in with the rest of the NJO wouldn't be that big of a deal. Nor would not reading the books have to be important. While there are certainly some distinct differences between the two, how much different would this be than the Clone Wars games having continuity with the book and comic series?

Now, before you all start yelling there are distinct differences. Namely, that picks up right after the movies and everyone knows all the characters and everything. That's great. It still introduced a lot of new content and ideas, especially for just casual fans. It did fine.

Likewise, the NJO game (regardless of whether its under the JK title or not, you should be a Jedi) could slowly introduce new content and ideas to a fairly familiar universe. You could actually start out doing basic Jedi work in the galaxy with the Empire not a problem, and then move on to the Vong coming in and all that. A slow introduction would solve most of the problems you guys have complained about.

And you guys are right about closing the series. Kyle's done, his story has been told. (Though I do want a book on him in the EU beyond the novelizations of the games ).


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Old 10-23-2003, 06:38 PM   #44
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up!


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Old 10-24-2003, 04:16 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by Master_Keralys
A slow introduction would solve most of the problems you guys have complained about.
But it doesn't solve the biggest problem where a large percentage of the Star Wars fan population is anti-NJO. Intorducing them slowly or otherwise is not going to solve this. And unless this is changed, it is less feasible for Lucasarts to make an NJO game instead of an game based in the traditional eras.
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Old 10-24-2003, 05:47 PM   #46
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True. Although I've had my complaints about certain parts of the NJO, I've never understood the hatred that people have for it. Perhaps it's because they have been happy with the secure, comfortable universe where everything ended up the same at the end as in the beginning. Now, though, people are at risk, as is the future; I think that many SW fans dislike that. But I love it; it makes the series more real in my opinion.

It's also possible that a game would actually help people to like the NJO better, by giving them another perspective on it. Just a thought....


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Old 11-10-2003, 07:31 PM   #47
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Bump! Bump bump bump!!!!!!

Don't let good threads die!

Given that the NJO is now finished (and don't post spoilers on that!), it might actually be good tactics for LEC to make a game. It would get people to pick up the series that haven't read it and it would sell well regardless of the era. Especially if it wasn't advertised as an NJO game. Why not just a game in that era? It's not like all Jedi ever do is fight Yuuzhan Vong... there's still plenty of regular missions to do, and the political intrigue would make for an excellent situation.


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Old 11-10-2003, 08:07 PM   #48
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I don't know what people have against NJO but I just finished reading the Unifying force(the last book in the series) and I have to say a game based in that time period would be awesome. And I think you could play Klye Katarn because the Vong themselves aren't affected by the force, so being a Jedi master might be something of a good thing. Also there are enemies like the Peace Brigade(humans who are vong lackies) and the Vong's slave thrails(who would be harder to affect with the force but not impossible). What the game would require of players is less of an attitude of "Kill em all!" and more of an attitude of "How do I survive and fulfill my mission?" Personally I think its rediculous how in the Jedi Knight games you end up personally killing EVERY storm trooper, criminal, and dark jedi in a level. The higher challenge would make players THINK and maybe stealth would become more of an important factor too. All good points for a potential NJO game. Also powers like telekinesis could still prove advantagious to Jedi( a vong can still hurt when you hit him with a big rock ya know)

On a separate note, the reason SOME of the NJO books are bad is because the authors have such different writing styles and differnent goals when they write these books. Collaboration can only go so far when you've got that many different people writing for the same overall story.
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Old 11-10-2003, 11:55 PM   #49
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Thumbs down no no no no no!

the NJO story is anti star wars...
Why....
the force is irrelivant....
big time dumb.. star wars is about the jedi and force.
good and evil light and dark.
the force is every where (yoda said that one...)
force binds every thing together... plus the vong...
i dont care what explination is given
its just not star wars with the vong more like trek..
Having something that doesn't exist in the force is wrong to the star wars mythos and still a jedi able to move faster than perception can cut any vong down to size...even if this hairbrain i dont believe in the force so it don exist is BS..
read "heir to the empire" or some other good start wars books but not NJO its just not star wars.
the force tells/guides the jedi and helps the reaction to action.
with out the force it a jedi would be useless and star wars useless.
please no more of this Vong BS, its dumb and doesn't fit into star wars.
The force exists in all life thats just the way it is in the star wars mythos..doesn't matter what galaxy they are from the force is every where so again this vong thing is big time dumb
organic weapons ... cool
big ugly weirdos... cool
Force absent...HUH?
not possible in the star wars mythos...
repeat after me
not possible is star wars....
the NJO is over just forget it happened ...
I did


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Old 11-11-2003, 12:08 AM   #50
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Re: no no no no no!

Quote:
Originally posted by bodstevens
the NJO story is anti star wars...
Why....
the force is irrelivant....
big time dumb.. star wars is about the jedi and force.
good and evil light and dark.
the force is every where (yoda said that one...)
force binds every thing together... plus the vong...
i dont care what explination is given
its just not star wars with the vong more like trek..
Having something that doesn't exist in the force is wrong to the star wars mythos and still a jedi able to move faster than perception can cut any vong down to size...even if this hairbrain i dont believe in the force so it don exist is BS..
read "heir to the empire" or some other good start wars books but not NJO its just not star wars.
the force tells/guides the jedi and helps the reaction to action.
with out the force it a jedi would be useless and star wars useless.
please no more of this Vong BS, its dumb and doesn't fit into star wars.
The force exists in all life thats just the way it is in the star wars mythos..doesn't matter what galaxy they are from the force is every where so again this vong thing is big time dumb
organic weapons ... cool
big ugly weirdos... cool
Force absent...HUH?
not possible in the star wars mythos...
repeat after me
not possible is star wars....
the NJO is over just forget it happened ...
I did
I say you should only knock the NJO if you know enough about it to knock it ! Zonama Sekot(a planet) is very alive in the force. The Vong are very closely linked to Zonama Sekot. This is what the whole NJO series is about, and what the final book "THE UNIFYING FORCE" aims to illustrate...

I cant wait to finish it ...

To each their own, nonetheless

MTFBWYA


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Old 11-11-2003, 01:35 AM   #51
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nope nope nope

To each their own NJO isn't what im into...
dont care how it turns out got bored reading it..
Just not into it.


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Old 11-11-2003, 02:19 AM   #52
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I admit, I've judged the NJO as "stupid tripe" without having read (or even held in my hands) any of the books in the series.

The plot sounds like a bad Star Trek Voyager story-arc and I keep hearing of more crappy plot developments involving killing of main characters, contradicting themes and revelations from the canon films, etc.

I suppose if I were honest about critiquing it I'd have to read the entire series, but I don't have a desire to read 19 novels when there's more interesting sci fi out there to spend my time and money on.

I've been told certain books in the series are great and others are terrible, but then why would I want to break into the story in the middle having missed so much and thus be utterly confused?

I just have to say no thanks. I used to be a huge EU guy and read everything, but I've long since given up "keeping up" with all of the new books, comics, etc being spewed out to milk the Expanded Universe franchise and its ties to the Star Wars mythos for all its worth...

[/End Cynical Rant]


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Old 11-11-2003, 05:38 AM   #53
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hey, i think this game would be a great idea...first, b/c i love NJO and secondly because i agree with those above that stated the challenges of fighting the vong in hand to hand combat.
also, what no one mentioned is that the vong have the "masquers" and you might have to use your force sense to "sniff" them out of crowds, etc.

I also think that if an expansion is made to JA, it should focus on the "Academy" aspect of it....or if there's a new game in the JK series, maybe it should follow a young padawan learner thru the progression of becoming a jedi...then being a master and going on missions with your padawans, etc (though that is a VERY ambitious plot)

Back to the NJO thing...i too am a little tired of weequay and rodian villains...i mean there are thousands of species (not all "humanoid" either, that could be used. i think that the settings and backgrounds (worldships, coral skips) for a NJO /JK game would rock.

here's what i think the different ememies in the NJO/JK game would be like:

peace brigade: (gun toting guys...different species... similar to rodians/weequay in JK)

Vong slaves: like stormies...easy slash and they're no longer a problem...arm them with....whatever

Lesser Vong warriors: comprable in difficulty to the new reborn, but instead of using force powers, they have amphistaffs and razor bugs...also, they are "heavier/bulkier"

Higher Vong warriors: very difficult, always surrounded by lackeys that join the fight...fight with amphistaffs...crushingly powerful.

Friendlies:
Ryn, lots of cool jedi, leia, han, wedge, etc.

Also, like the "choice in JA" to become dark or light....maybe one would have to chose to become a half "vong" like tahiri or something.....o and dont forget using masquers yourself to sneak around

last thing...those of you that said the Vong are "star trek", i'd have to disagree with you and say that they are a ripoff of the "Cobra-La" from the GI JOE movie....remember that...


Dennis
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Old 11-11-2003, 02:31 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by tnd
Back to the NJO thing...i too am a little tired of weequay and rodian villains...i mean there are thousands of species
Why don't you replace them you replace them yourself. I have done a lot of this already. It's easy as pie. Right now I replaced the reborn with new models, most of the weequay with battledroids, and most of the Jedi with some of the great JO jedi models (including Jaden), amung other things. JA is so flexible you can set it up however you like...

Quote:
Originally posted by tnd
last thing...those of you that said the Vong are "star trek", i'd have to disagree with you and say that they are a ripoff of the "Cobra-La" from the GI JOE movie....remember that...
Oh, that makes it better...
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Old 11-11-2003, 06:42 PM   #55
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Oh and on another note, how many of those people who bashed NJO on this thread actually read any of the books? Cause if you haven't read them you really shouldn't be putting them down.OK?
Oh and like I said earlier, just because you can't use the force to affect the Vong directly doens't mean you can't use the force to affect objects and the enviroment around you. A jedi would still be able to throw boulders at Vong soldiers or mind trick a rancor into attacking them or any number of other options. Its called being CREATIVE.
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Old 11-11-2003, 07:03 PM   #56
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yeah, the GI Joe thing doesnt really make it better, just thought i'd point out another Vong precursor.


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Old 11-11-2003, 08:15 PM   #57
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I thought the next Jedi Knight game could be about Qu Rahn during the Clone Wars and Jedi Purge and could lead up to him and Morgan Katarn finding the Valley of the Jedi. Call it Jedi Prophecy or some nonsense.


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Old 11-11-2003, 08:54 PM   #58
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not bad, but i just think it'd be too similar to everything already in the JK series.....dark jedi around....clone troopers instead of stormtroopers,etc.



dennis
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Old 11-11-2003, 08:54 PM   #59
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JediLiberator while I have not read the books themselves, I've read all of the detailed synopsis of each book up until the final two which hadn't been done at the time and have also researched sites such as the NJO encyclopedia. I believe I have at least a somewhat fair amount of knowledge of the series to comment about it and personally I do not like it, like the majority of people I have met. My comments are not meant as disrespect to anyone who likes this series, only my personal views on the subject and my reasoning for my opinion of it.

I do not find the concept of the Vong to be creative nor original, I find them quite cliche and out of place within the SW universe. Firstly they are invaders from another galaxy bent on the complete destruction of anything different from them, way done before in other Sci-fi venues. They worship their gods by mutilating their bodies as well as their social status or ranks, perhaps new to SW but hardly original in concept. Then they live outside of the Force or on another level, this is just laughable considering the source of the material they are working within, the SW universe where everything from sentient beings to nature are connected by the Force, in fact the Force is the essence of all life and existance, so the concept of Vong or anything living outside of this is just absurd again given the universe they are supposed to exist within. The way I see it is that the writers wanted an enemy to be so powerful that they could easily threaten everything within the SW reality, but failed to come up with something within this universe that would fit such a threat so instead opted to just change or disregard it for what eventually became the Vong. It also feels "how typical" that the Vong would decide Coruscant is the location they wanted for their new Homeworld. The whole Jedi splitting into two factions (pacifists vs combatants) was very uncharacteristic of Jedi, then the Jedi becoming exiled and hunted by the Republic felt like they were attempting to create too much of a sense of desperation for the Jedi but to me it felt hollow. I don't care what kind of alien the amphistaff is (as all Vong equipment are organisms), a lightsaber should slice that thing in a single swipe, organics never would be able to act as conductors or resistors to energy weapons such as saber blades, same with Vong armor as it is also a living organism.

As for the game, while I can grant you that you could still use the Force to manipulate the environment, such as rocks, somehow it would leave a very empty feeling to me as a Jedi player not being able to use push, pull, and any other power character of a Jedi's ability in combat. Unless the Vongs were using sabers also, it seems unnatural to fight against them with it, being as sabers should have gone through Vong weapons easily. I do like the look of the Vong model for JK2 (though I read it was an inaccurate representation of the real Vong look) and had the Vongs been the Sith equivalent of orcs I would definately have liked them much better.

I hope you don't think I'm criticizing the tastes of people who like the NJO or the EU for that matter, hardly. These are the reasons I don't like the NJO and would be uninterested in seeing a game featuring them. That said, if you want to create an NJO mod for JA or JK2 or whatever, why don't you guys try recruiting a team and create it yourselves. There are plenty of NJO skins/models available which you could use if you get permission from their authors, then you'd just have to make maps and somehow convey the NJO story in MP, seige mode maybe, though that would limit the mod only to player vs player games, if AOTCTC can figure out a way to deliver a storyline in MP so can you guys, give it a shot. In any case good luck if you decide to try it, if not then hope some team in the future decides to take up your venture.
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Old 11-11-2003, 09:07 PM   #60
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Archonon,
i appreciate your respectful disagreement....some others on this board are just plain mean when they make posts regarding difference of opinion.

anyway, i can understand someone not LIKING the NJO, afterall, it is quite different for starwars. the only comments i have regarding your opinion are that

1) i think the reason the NJO/JK game would be cool is that you get an "empty" feeling not being able to use the force against vong. and

2) regarding the NJO series (not the game idea). I think you might be missing the idea that , they dont have "FORCE" essence BECAUSE they're from outside the galaxy ..those arent two separate occurances.

I think its' a cool idea, but i dont think it's somethign LUCASARTS would ever do.

dennis
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Old 11-11-2003, 10:11 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
[/End Cynical Rant]
Boy KURGAN you must've gotten on up on the wrong side of the Dawn on Time this morning !

For some reason I keep thinking your avatar is actually YOU - and in that case was thinking that the only use you would have for books is to tear them apart(eg. the white pages) to work those 20"+ biceps

But of course, thats not you in the avatar, is it K ?

BTW, a special Hello to all those kids that are getting a thrill out of the NJO ! To those that aren't, well, to each their own.......

MTFBWYA


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Old 11-12-2003, 01:59 AM   #62
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Okay, so here's my counterpoints.(Spoilers for NJO below! Be warned!)
Also note before reading this that I am NOT attacking anybodies' right to have an opinion. I just got a little miffed because people talk about this set of books with comments like "well I heard this about NJO from so and so and I don't like that idea." Those kind of comments are not based on the facts and THAT annoys me. And I just read Archonon's post so i figured I'd respond to that too...
Begin Rant



1) If you read the synopsis to Traitor or The Unifying Force both books deal with the concept that the Jedi's perception of the force is incomplete(a.ka. the Jedi ain't perfect!)
2)The Unifying force suggest that the Vong got stripped of the force intentially as punishment for becoming a race of savage warriors. Although they were a little sketchy on this point it suggests the "will" of the force is willing to take a hand in mortal affairs.
3) If an inaminate element like cortosis can resist lightsabers(like the armor the shadowtroopers use in JO) why couldn't a living weapon or piece of armor do the same thing? Especially as the Vong have been working with their bio tech for a few millenia and all it is possible.
4) George Lucas himself stated in one of the extra commentaries for the Ep1 DVD that the sith in fact split from the Jedi order. If that's true why is so hard to believe the New Jedi Order would start to fracture when they face an enemy they can't feel through the force?
5) As for choosing coruscant as the "prize" of the campaign it kinda makes sense. I mean, as a base of operations for ruling the whole galaxy(which was the vong's plan from the get go) could you think of a better place?

End Rant
P.S.-Whomever started this thread, i hope you realized this was gonna degenerate into a debate about the NJO book from the beginning. Inevitability is a sad state...
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Old 11-12-2003, 05:24 AM   #63
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@tnd I don't see any reason why I shouldn't like the fact you or anyone else likes the NJO, in the same spirit I tried to say why I don't. The empty feeling would probably be a turn off for many people who like playing as Jedi including myself. The whole point of playing a Jedi is to wield a saber and use the Force. Take away part of that and it's just incomplete and unsatisfying for a lot of us. As to the essence, the fact they come from another galaxy hardly qualifies them as beings that don't qualify to have the Force. In SW the Force is life and the nature of beings themselves, suggesting something is apart from that is suggesting they don't exist because they are not part of life. I wish I could properly explain this so it makes sense but there is not enough board and this post will be lengthy enough already.

@JediLiberator, I appreciate your position and respect your opinions. Yet I disagree with your point of view. I'll address my interpretation to your points as listed:

1. I did read the synopsis to Traitor which is where I mentioned that the Vong might exist in another level of the Force, meaning the Jedi didn't understand the Force completely. While I can visulaize that the Force is probably something that can't be ever fully understood or even known, it does not allow venue for the kinds of contradictions that NJO establishes. EX. The Force is within everything in the universe, NJO is Force universe + Vong. Contradicting something established in the movies, ie canon.

2. To suggest that something or someone can strip the Force from an entire race is absurd in my pov to say the least. In SW there is no actual God like there is in actual religions, so that some diety or worse race punished the Vong by eliminating the Force within them is ludicrous, such a thing would just suggest the entire race became nothing, not real because they are no longer part of life.

3. Cortosis is a mineral, there are minerals that can act as natural resistors or conductors of energy which would reduce damaging properties of energy. A sentient being of corporal form is unable to withstand the temperatures of heat produced by something like a lightsaber, an elemental being like a Balrog from LotR on the other hand might be able to resist fire and heat based damage.

4. I have not seen this documentary you mention, I'll check it out. Regardless. from everything I've read about the Sith, they were originally a race from Korriban who practiced the Force for darkness, some Jedi discovered them and succombed to the Dark Side, these were then exiled from the Jedi and they went to Korriban where they mixed with the native Sith thus developing the Sith religion, the counterpart to the Jedi. What the NJO put was that the Jedi were as inept in their decision making as the corrupt senators from the Old Republic, half wanted to seek peaceful negotiations with the Vong after they had slaughtered what thousands, hundreds of thousands, come on. Just look at the movies the Jedi seek peace until the outbreak of war, once that is inevitable they get down to business. Further Kyp Durron's brigade disagreed with this peace initiative so the went rogue and split the Jedi into the two factions, sorry don't buy it. The Jedi would not have remained as uninvolved as they did after the events of Vector Prime, much less however many other events it took for them to finally take action. The others might as well be traitors or in the least deserters, such events just don't appear to me as something that would happen in the Jedi.

5. Coruscant is the center of the Republic and Empire, the Vong could have chosen any planet to make their base of operations from, would they have attacked and conquered the planet sure, but it is hardly a necessity from a strategic point. Actually Coruscant should have been the most difficult target being the base of the Republic and home to its military, that should have been their final goal. But my point was that it was just too typical that they chose Coruscant instead of any other planet in the galaxy because of course Coruscant is the only one that has the suitable conditions to reproduce their former homeworld of Yuuzhan'tar.

In any case, it wasn't my intent to form another debate from this subject. I only expressed my point of view because everyone else did also. As I said, if you want to make an NJO mod go ahead, there are plenty of people who'll play it. I hardly believe you'll have people opposed to you doing it, there's just many who like me are not interested in that particular scenario of the SW EU. That should hardly discourage you from trying to do it if you really want it done. Nice chatting with you, good luck with the NJO proyect.
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Old 11-12-2003, 09:30 AM   #64
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Originally posted by Archonon
I hope you don't think I'm criticizing the tastes of people who like the NJO or the EU for that matter, hardly.
It think one thing that can be said with alot of certainty is, most SW fans are highly unlikely to be discouraged from checking out developments in their beloved universe... Its like not going to a movie solely because someone else didnt like it

First and foremost, you really need to be an EU person to be into the NJO. Secondly, you need to get your mind around the fact that the NJO, EU novels cannot continue in the vein of the films forever. the SW saga is only 6 films. This is a relatively small creative universe(comparing to something like Trek, for example) So it is inevitable you will get ppl who switch off the EU/books in particular that begin to venture outside this. This extends to include the empire. Some ppl cant get their heads around a SW without Xw v Tie dogfights, nasty imperial villains or brilliant tacticians.... Times change. Even in the SW universe....

Many ppl like NJO, most for different reasons. The Yuuzhan Vong isnt the first and wont be the last time in science fiction where you get an enemy from "parts unknown" who are tough as nails. This is far from the reason I read NJO. I dont sit there reading and drool over the biotechnology or ritualism which is part of the Yuuzhan Vong's beliefs and practises. I am more intrigued by the *characters* and their motivations. In any piece of media, be it film, TV, fiction, anything, what draws many to it is the insights it gives into our own experiences and how this relates to what we enjoy/or not...

This does NOT mean NJO is social commentary, far from it, it is escapism, and a melodrama on a galaxy wide scale...

What has the NJO taught me ?? - nothing new - but what I learnt about the *characters* was definitely interesting. All of these themes are recurring tenets of literature from day 1....... for example,

a)Nom Anor : there will always exist selfish individuals, willing to exploit any situation to their benefit.....

b)The Vong Philosophy of conquest : there will always be a group or faction that is determined to exert its will and philosophy over others. This is paired with a lack of tolerance

c)The Heretics/Shamed Ones : there will always be underpriveleged/persecuted elements of any society that are striving to achieve equality

d)Jacen Solo : personal reflection is a tool to strengthen the will. Face it, the guy reflects *alot* and in 'Traitor' he showed an amazing strength of will......

AND, MOST IMPORTANTLY, after all that, for me, reading the NJO is FUN. If its not fun, then its just homework !

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Old 11-12-2003, 04:05 PM   #65
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Wow!

I didn't expect half this much interest. And I did know that it'd end up being an NJO debate.

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I do not find the concept of the Vong to be creative nor original, I find them quite cliche
Aren't you missing the fact that all of Star Wars is cliched? The whole thing is ripoffs of other ideas, but it's the presentation that makes it matter. I don't buy that argument for that very reason.

They chose Coruscant because it was a way of humiliating the Republic: we took your capital and made it ours. That's very logical, especially from a strategic perspective.

The NJO makes the point that the universe isn't just as cut and dried as Jedi vs. Sith. It also makes the point that Jedi have limitations. That's the whole point of having the Yuuzhan Vong exist outside the force. Vergere comments that "If the Force is life, can there be life outside the Force?" in Destiny's Way. And here point is right on: just because they don't appear in Jedi senses, that doesn't mean that they aren't in the Force at all. I haven't gotten to TUF yet so don't spoil it, but I think that it will answer a lot of those questions.

Actually, the suggestion of the Force having a will isn't that far out: think about the "living Force" that Qui-Gon refers to in Ep. 1. It very much has a will. Moreover, many people dislike this idea because it makes the Force something different than what they've always thought it was. People have to get over their own misperceptions. Finally, like it or not, Lucas approved all of this.

There are critical differences between the Old Jedi and the New Jedi; that's another point of this story arc. It also goes to show how the JC is needed, and it makes the point that the Jedi are human like everyone else. Finally, there have been great schisms in the Jedi before; the battle that brought about the Valley of the Jedi was one such. The old Jedi wouldn't have splintered by the time of the prequels, but the new ones don't have the same history or foundation as the new Jedi.

As far as the game goes, those traits could actually make for a better game, with less trooper slashing and more skill required. And you could play as Kyle again, he should have plenty of challenges against the Vong...


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Old 11-12-2003, 08:10 PM   #66
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Originally posted by JediLiberator
Oh and on another note, how many of those people who bashed NJO on this thread actually read any of the books? Cause if you haven't read them you really shouldn't be putting them down.OK?
If I see a trailer for a movie, and I think it looks stupid, does that mean I can't not like it unless I see it?

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Originally posted by tnd
yeah, the GI Joe thing doesnt really make it better, just thought i'd point out another Vong precursor.
I know. I was just teasing you

Quote:
Originally posted by tnd
not bad, but i just think it'd be too similar to everything already in the JK series.....dark jedi around....clone troopers instead of stormtroopers,etc.
But a lot of people, including me, like those things that are already in the JK series. Personally, one reason I wouldn't want a game where I fight the Vong is because I am perfectly happy to fight stormtroopers and Dark Jedi. I've played the whole series, and so I have been fighting stormtroopers for years now. I still have fun doing it now. I guess I see an NJO game as getting rid of most of the elements I enjoy about Star Wars games, like stormtroopers, lightsaber battles, dark jedi, effective force powers, and scenes/locations familiar from the movies.

Just MO.
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Old 11-12-2003, 08:53 PM   #67
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I guess I'm a reluctant fan of the NJO series. Some were written very well, and that kept my interest. However there are just to many inconsistancies, like creatures that create black holes to use as weapons and shields? Where does the mass and/or radiation go? Anyone hear of conservation of energy?
No a biological based society will fall to a technological one, becaue the tech side is much more adaptible and flexible. They use flying insects for guns, we'll spray the battlefield with RAID.

Now I think that a future JK series game should take place afte NJO, and concern itself with all the dark little force users running around the galaxy causing mischief while the Jedi have been busy fighting the Vong. The advantage would be that such a game would be more open-ended. A game that takes place prior to the movies will eventually run up against "canon" and that's the end of that. But a game taking place afterwards... You can have a slew of villians to choose from, sith, ex-Imperial, pirates, slavers, cloners, Vong remnants, those reptiles that used souls to power their war droids, crime lords etc.
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Old 11-12-2003, 09:25 PM   #68
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@Astrotoy7 Though there are several concepts that I have liked about the EU (Dash Rendar, Thrawn, Korriban) a lot of the way things are executed in the EU are to my dislike. For one too many clones, I know the films opened this with the Clone Wars but these clones had a specific purpose in the general arc of the SW story (they were the tools for Palpatine's rise to power), but the EU is way too exagerated with the villain of the week clone (Palpatine, Thrawn, Jorus C'Baoth, Luke and God knows how many others have all been cloned). I agree with you 100% that it is escapism and should be fun, which is why it doesn't bother in the least that you like the NJO or EU, but for me it isn't fun, I find the Vong as a desparate creation for something to be a challenge for the Jedi, I do not find them interesting nor appealing as a race or group like the Sith in SW, the Harkonnens in Dune or the Shadows in B5. I like the Solo children but I do not like several of the NJO characters, so I never got attached to them. Finally, I found the Vong too over the top in their victories, they are too invincible against everyone beyond the point of reality. Every planet pretty much falls without exception to the Vong, neither a Republic, Remnant, Jedi, Chiss and Hapan alliance can stop them, I just don't buy it. They are resistant to sabers, they are outside the Force, they resistant to blasters in the head? Because they seem like it with everyone losing all the time. I prefer stories where there is a balance between victory and loss, that things can go desperate and the tide turns in favor of one side and the other is doing whatever possible to regain advantage sure, that's great. But I find it unappelaing to have one side losing all the time to then come up with a Hail Mary victory at the 11th hour, another reason I don't like the NJO or even RotJ for that matter. But this is a subjective thing, that's what I like, if we all thought alike there would never be variety.

@Master_Keralys I tried not to form a debate but alas it always happens, as neither side can ever just accept the different point of view. I realize that all SW characters are cliched, in fact it is unprecedented how many similarities there are between the entire SW anthology and Frank Herbert's masterpiece Dune. I'm not saying that basing themselves on pregenerated concepts is a bad thing and I agree that presentation makes up for lack of originality. My comment about the Vong was because they keep being referred to as something new and never before seen and in my opinion they are far from that which why I called the cliched. I read they chose Coruscant because of sometyhing in the agriculture or atmosphere being correct for them to recreate the conditions of their homeworld once they moved it closer to the sun. Nevertheless, from a military strategic standpoint, the capitol is the ultimate objective to win the war because it's supposed to be the hardest to conquer, like Berlin in WW2, the allies didn't start by tring to conquer Berlin or even Germany for that matter, first it was Africa, then Italy then France and eventually Germany. But that is irrelevant, my point is that how typical in any kind of sci-fi invasion that the hero's homeworld/capitol is always the specific target the enemy needs, not wants, needs. I'm not suggesting that the universe remain stale of Jedi vs Sith or Empire vs Rebels but I would have preferred that the universe remain true to its original concepts (all living beings are connected by the Force, etc). While I understand what you mean about the Jedi of the era, nonetheless remember that in SW things are always taken to somewhat extremes, if you do good then you are on the light path, begin to slip up and you head down the dark path, now I don't agree with this myself, I see the Force as neutral in its essence which is why I laugh at the concept of Light and Dark powers, but the movies push in the direction that paths are ver black and white, again this is something I'm flexible in. Still, I consider the Jedi as following training similar in fashion to soldiers, which means I do not believe they would suddenly split in two over the politics of warfare, firstly as I mentioned because I do not believe the Jedi would have not gotten involved against the Vong even half before they did, thousands or maybe millions dying and the Jedi insisting No there is a peceful solution, hardly. Luke himself was very much involved in the Rebellion and never suggested well let's make peace with them, since the Vong are supposedly much worse I doubt Luke would keep twidling his thumbs while the galaxy was on fire. Hence I do not think there would be a split in the Jedi because of discipline of training as well as I don't believe it would have ever gotten that far. But hey that's just me. As for the game, well I think I've eplained why I wouldn't find it interesting to play a game under these conditions; lack of Force, uninteresting character developemt and storyline (to me), and honestly I'm way tired of Kyle, he's fine as a mentor but I wanted to stop being him all the way after JK1. For a third time, if you want a JK series mod of the NJO organize it yourself. Trust me sitting here debating why it would be good to have an NJO mod will not have it done any time soon, try recruiting a group to make it so you can enjoy Vong slicing action. So good luck on that.
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Old 11-14-2003, 03:44 PM   #69
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I disagree...

I disagree, Archonon. I think that you're right about us not getting it anytime soon, but I don't think that's the question. Correct me if I'm wrong, Keralys, but I think it was a hypothetical question: what would the community think?

The Jedi do win victories. But one of the points of the series is that the Jedi and the rest of the galaxy must work together. The Jedi usually win when they and the Republic work together all the way. That's been the problem the whole time: the NR gov. And it makes the point well, because a lot of governments have the same problem of hesitation. Moreover, those victories have been awesome... the battle in the Black Bantha, the Battle of Borleias (which was "technically" a loss, but the NR won), and the battle at Talfaglio to save the refugees. And don't forget about Ebaq 9. It's gone both ways; the Chiss repelled most of their initial advances, so...

Finally, the point isn't to have a mod. The point was that he wanted to know what the community thought. And obviously, by the votes at least, a fair number of people liked the idea: more than didn't. Thus, your argument that he whould just set aside his hopes (and the rest of us too) because you don't like it is rather silly, I think...


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Old 11-14-2003, 07:59 PM   #70
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Firstly, I fully respect your disagreement. Secondly, I have no idea what you are talking about. I do not think I ever told him to set aside his hopes for an NJO mod, if anything I'd like to think I've tried to encourage him to take an iniciative at beginning one. The fact that I do not like the NJO makes absolutely no consequence to whether a mod is made or not about it, the very simple solution for people who are not interested such as myself is to just not download it. Most of these threads led to requests at making NJO mods for either JO or JA, and being in the JA forum I believed he was polling whether there would be interest in such a mod aside from just a game. Reading his original post I see he only asked about a JK game in this timeline, well I apologize then for misinterpreting this I thought I read that somewhere in this thread.

I think you should read more carefully before commenting about what I said. I fully encourage his desire to have a mod done, what I said was if he wanted to see one made that why didn't he get involved. Start recruiting, talk to some modders, see what happens. The fact remains that remaining here debating on whether the NJO is good or not (a subjective thing) won't help any the progress of an NJO mod being made, so I suggested he get involved.

I'm happy for you that you like the NJO, and in the same spirit of disagreement with my opinions I disagree with yours. Naturally I've seen Republic/Jedi victories, nonetheless they remain way too unbalanced imo for credibility. You do not need to agree with my opinion but in the least respect it as I do yours. Anyways, it doesn't really matter to me one way or another. His query was for an opinion on the community's interest in an NJO game, well though I believed I read something about a mod somewhere before I began posting (maybe its backlag from the last NJO mod thread from long ago), my opinion remains the same. Am I opposed to an actual NJO game? No. Am I interested in seeing the JK series go in that direction? Absolutely not. Since he asked for an opinion on this I believe any answer should be acceptable even if it is opposing an NJO mod/game.

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Old 11-18-2003, 03:38 PM   #71
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Some good points, Archonon. Dreith was right, I was thinking a game. I would love a good mod (quality like the AOTC:TC team is doing) but I just haven't seen another crew like that that would want to do this particular mod.

Precisely what do you mean by "unbalanced", Archonon? I've see the balance coming back, but it's kind of like the Americans invading the Indians - except the NR does have matching technology. It's a situation of technological superiority (at least temporarily), a fractious government, and sheer weight of numbers. If the government had had its act together, it would never have been a problem. Same with the Jedi, who were held back by Luke's hesitancy to possibly unleash Dark Jedi on the galaxy. And Kyp Durron didn't help the situation, so...

I think perhaps a Jedi game would be cool. But maybe not in the Jedi Knight series. Similar concepts and whatnot, but newer engine, all that kind of stuff. I've also said before that I would love to see an X-Wing style game in the NJO, and even a KOTOR in the NJO wouldn't be bad...


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Old 11-18-2003, 11:54 PM   #72
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How bout just a mod for NJO? That way, everyone is happy


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Old 11-19-2003, 10:17 AM   #73
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probably not

As much as I love EU and the NJO(only 130+ pages into TUF), I dont see it fitting in as a JO/JA mod. Probably not enough modders are fans of the NJO, and most will be at odds about how to deal with the force absence thing. Hopefully a future game may include them..., not necessarily a FPS though

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Old 11-19-2003, 07:32 PM   #74
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Unfortunately, I have to agree with Astrotoy7. There may e a great deal of support for it, but it's really not enough. I also agree with Keralys: even a KOTOR type game would be cool. But whatever they did, you'd have to be a Jedi. It's just no fun to try to kill Vong with a blaster pistol, you see!!!


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Old 11-26-2003, 09:06 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally posted by Blitzkrieg_vs
How bout just a mod for NJO? That way, everyone is happy
Some one seems to be keen after all..... follow....

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthrea...64#post1388764

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Old 11-27-2003, 02:52 AM   #76
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idontlikegeorge said this:

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I mean, they are completely seperate from the Force! Atleast the yslamiri are still relative to the Force, but the Vong aren't affected with a lack of or presence of the Force.
i would have agreed with that statement 6 months ago. but i actually had the guts to pick up an NJO book not too long ago; Traitor, by Matthew Stover. in it, Jacen (the male twin) is captured by the Vong for some obscure religious reason. anyway, the basic plot of the book is irrelevant for this post. however, along the course of the book, Jacen learns to interact with Vong-life forms using the Force. once he eventually discovers how to do this, his "teacher" likens the Vongs' lack of a force presence to the electro-magnetic-spectrum. the idea being that just because all we see is white light (and its component colors) doesnt mean that the other forms of light (x-ray, infrared, UV) dont exist.

so the whole premise behind what Jacen learns is not so much that the Vong are untouchable by the Force, but just that they are untouchable by the Force all the current Jedi know.

so a story could be conceivably be weaved around Jacen returning and teaching his Jedi comrades how to effect the Vong using the force.

but thats just my opinion.


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Old 11-27-2003, 07:10 AM   #77
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Quote:
like Species 8472 from Voyager
those r very annoying jumping around corners and hard to kill (star trek elite force) probably the most annoying monster in that game lol

anyway NJO game sounds good but it will be like what people were saying before JA kyles a jedi master hes finished no more playing him so basicaly in NJO u would need to be trained as a padawan which would be exactly the same as JA
if a game was made as u being a jedi master the dark jedi would have to be very hard and stormtrooper would have to be like the droids in TPM that being always in groups of about 4 or 5 and have tanks backing them up anyway for a game like this to be good it wouldnt be very newbie friendly and only die hard jedi knight fans would like it
i like the old mercanary jedi knight 1 feel of the game where a lightsaber wasnt "uber" but then again its fun to run into a bunch of stormtroopers deflecting there shots before cleaving them into a thousand pieces


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Old 11-27-2003, 12:15 PM   #78
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Here one second..... Gone the next

Im still meandering through the final NJO book, "The Unifying Force", one revelation was (major book spoiler) :

spoiler:
The yuuzhan vong are absent from the force because it was stripped from them as a punishment for their aberrant ways


I havent finished reading the book, but it can safely be assumed that there will be greater clarification of where the Vong stand w regards to the force. This would obviously affect any other EU/gaming representation of them.....

Still that above mod/project sounds interesting, and ambitious.... I would definitely give it a go, if it ever gets completed......

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Old 12-01-2003, 03:40 PM   #79
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Does anyone know what happened to Prime's NJO mod that he talked about early in the thread? It's been kind of silent on that thread for a while... For that matter, where' Prime? Hmm...

I can't wait for TUF <no spoilers, no spoilers, no spoilers... grr. Focus, Keralys!!!>

Astro, go check out my Jacen Solo thread in the EU section... Just watch out for the ridiculous quantities of literary analysis. It's a good thread, though.


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Old 12-01-2003, 04:52 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally posted by Master_Keralys
Does anyone know what happened to Prime's NJO mod that he talked about early in the thread? It's been kind of silent on that thread for a while... ...
Wha? Unless I seriously misintrepreted what Prime meant when he said " I guess I see an NJO game as getting rid of most of the elements I enjoy about Star Wars games, like stormtroopers, lightsaber battles, dark jedi, effective force powers, and scenes/locations familiar from the movies." it doesn't make much sense for him to have started an NJO Mod? Am I missing something here?


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