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Old 10-14-2003, 08:37 PM   #1
Master_Keralys
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How about REALITY (for SW, that is)?

Okay, did it strike anyone else as extremely odd that wherever you went there were no civilians? There were only lots of bad guys. Don't get me wrong, I like killing bad guys. But if you're on Coruscant, or riding a train through Corellia, or working your way around Ord Mantell, there should be civilians around. There should be people you have to protect from the depradations of evil ones. Think back to the way it was in JK. Sure, there weren't a lot of them, but they were there. And it added a lot of depth. Sadly, the series has followed most other FPS's and gone to the kill everything in sight mode (except when other Jedi are around). It doesn't feel right for the SW universe. That's what made SW great, it felt lived in. Now, this game rocks, but little things like that would really enhance the feel of the game.


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Old 10-14-2003, 09:22 PM   #2
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civilians = npcs, more npcs = lag = whiners = angry threads and emails = irritating


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Old 10-14-2003, 10:20 PM   #3
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Well, that wasn't the attitude of the JK1 team back when a Voodoo2 was top of the line...and they just so happened to make one of the best FPS games ever.
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Old 10-14-2003, 10:34 PM   #4
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what about the jawas, some droids and that dude uh forgot his name oh... kyle


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Old 10-14-2003, 10:34 PM   #5
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*MILD SPOILER*

There was the chiss Bartender in the Rancor level, the non mutant one the one where you saved the prisoners from the hutt. That was it though.....and I killed him anyway....he reminded me too much of some other chiss bartender.....yea...

D_P!


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Old 10-15-2003, 01:16 AM   #6
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Limitations of the engine...

JK1 wasn't as graphically powerful as Q3, so it had a lot less work to do, and could display more npc's... and when you think about it, it still didn't have a lot.

For now if you want more "realistic locales" in the Star Wars universe your best bet is a game like SWG.


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Old 10-15-2003, 01:25 AM   #7
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SWG? No Jedi (yet), imbalanced classes, and BUGS? I'll stay away until it becomes worth $14.99 a month, thankyewverymuch. No offense, but the press has been less than kind to it, and it'll be awhile before it gets good (like most MMORPG's).


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Old 10-15-2003, 02:31 AM   #8
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Quote:
SWG? No Jedi (yet), imbalanced classes, and BUGS? I'll stay away until it becomes worth $14.99 a month, thankyewverymuch. No offense, but the press has been less than kind to it, and it'll be awhile before it gets good (like most MMORPG's).
My point is, its RPG potential is far greater than JA will ever be, and it has the more realistic environments and "crowds" than you will ever see in JA.

Thousands of players interacting in a persistant online world vs. 16 players in a 'world' (more like a house or a small room) where most objects can't be interacted with and you have a tiny tiny number of npc's (if any).

It's like the difference between two kids playing on a jungle gym, vs. Disney World.


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Old 10-15-2003, 03:09 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
My point is, its RPG potential is far greater than JA will ever be, and it has the more realistic environments and "crowds" than you will ever see in JA.
I don't think it has anything to do with RPG potential, personally.

I too missed more neutral NPCs in the game. It's not that I wanted to go around talking to any of them - but they help to set the scene to make an environment more 'believable', while at the same time offering opportunities for you to either protect or kill them depending on your disposition.

The way that NPCs factored into the 'moral scale' in Jedi Knight, and thereby affected your path through the Force (Light or Dark side), was simply inspired, and I would personally welcome it's return for any further games in this series.

And the simple fact is that it was possible to include NPCs in JA. The Sandcrawler level is a prime example of this. On that map you had small groups of Jawas (in threes), who were being accosted by Sand people. Now - the second time I played through that level, I used Mind Trick on the Sand people - and by the time I reached the big wall (where it says you can't go that way), I pretty much had an army of them on my tail - and I could see them attacking all the Jawas I had passed along the way.

Needless to say - there were a lot of Sand people and Jawas on screen at the same time, and I didn't experience any slow down on my system - or if I did, it was hardly noticeable.

So in my view, it would have been possible to include more NPCs in more of the levels where they were sorely needed, like the 'tram' and Coruscant.

Apart from the Sandcrawler level, where I could protect the Jawas from attack - I didn't feel much like a Light-side Jedi for most of the game. When Luke tells you that you are going to planet X and you can practice your 'diplomatic' skills - and then just kill everything in sight, there's something wrong somewhere.
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Old 10-15-2003, 03:25 AM   #10
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I agree more NPCs, while a small thing in the end, would have made the game a great deal better. Especially, as Stormhammer pointed out, if they affected your dark\light status. Having one single event in an entire game decide something as huge as that is rather lame in my opinion.

Oh well...not long until KOTOR and Deus Ex 2. My copy of JA will probably start collecting dust right about then.
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Old 10-15-2003, 03:27 AM   #11
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I really miss the JK1 npc's too. And the bartender didn't even say anything. The jawas and droids squeaked a little I guess........ Something I've always wondered. You go through all these imperial outposts or whever it happens to be and you kill all the people in wonderful fps fashion. What do the droids do? Lord of the Flies: Droid Edition?


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Old 10-15-2003, 03:50 AM   #12
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceButler13
What do the droids do? Lord of the Flies: Droid Edition?


ROFLMAO! :haha: That is so funny. You just made my day.
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Old 10-15-2003, 08:21 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Darth_Pnut
*MILD SPOILER*

There was the chiss Bartender in the Rancor level, the non mutant one the one where you saved the prisoners from the hutt. That was it though.....and I killed him anyway....he reminded me too much of some other chiss bartender.....yea...

D_P!
I think it's the same one XD he decided to relocate after his run in with Kyle and since Reelo died he had no one to take care of his.... garbages. So why not relocate XD


Quote:
Originally posted by Stormhammer
When Luke tells you that you are going to planet X and you can practice your 'diplomatic' skills - and then just kill everything in sight, there's something wrong somewhere.
"You call this a diplomatic solution?"
"No I call it agressive negotiations."
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Old 10-15-2003, 03:03 PM   #14
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It is ironic that being a Jedi means killing everything in sight. This game seems to have gone the way of Quake and Doom. Unfortunately.

I don't think it would have been that difficult on places like Coruscant. After all
spoiler:
there were all sorts of Jedi on Korriban, fighting with all sorts of Reborn. Like, six of each at once at a couple points.
If the computer can handle that, which is probably the most graphically intense part of the game, then it ought to be able to handle a few more NPC's where they'd make a big difference.

I too miss the days of JK1 and a true choice between light and dark. One decision, not affected in the least by your choice of force powers, seems somewhat strange to me as well.


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Old 10-23-2003, 06:43 PM   #15
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Here's a thought: the modding ocmmunity could create mods with civilians. It shouldn't be that hard to program in more neutral npc's.

Maybe in the next game we'll get to protect people as Jedi really would.


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Old 10-23-2003, 07:38 PM   #16
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It WOULD be nice to have the option to go diplomatic on some missions, with NPCs and crud, although I would most likely slice and dice, it's more fun when you know there's the option. It would also be nice to be rated on how many people you killed when you didn't exactly have to kill them. Wouldn't be hard to program either, I don't think.
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Old 10-23-2003, 07:46 PM   #17
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I don't buy that "engine limitation" business. I just don't see why they couldn't add in a few civilian NPCs. Other than Jawas and droids of course.

Diplomacy would have been refreshing in this game. I know it's not supposed to compete with KOTOR (two entirely different games), but being a Jedi student, Jedi don't always resort to mass decapatations.

Oh well.

Oh, and for the record, SWG is great. Yes it has bugs, but you guys act as if no other MMORPG has had any problems.

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Old 10-23-2003, 08:27 PM   #18
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It couldnt have been the system resources. You know why?

The way it works is, there are triggers all around the level, before you walk into a room, you pass by a trigger, which is connected to a (some) NPC(s) When you walk through the trigger (it is as big as the room, so there is no way you can walk around it, unless you use noclip thats why your advised not use noclip, reasons for that include, no npcs will spawn, because you pass through the trigger, and cutscenes will screw up, because the npc may or may not spawn.) Anyways, back on the subject, you pass through the trigger which makes the npc(s) spawn. So before you pass by, the NPC doesnt exist, so it isnt drawn! No lag at all. After you pass by its drawn, once its dead it disapears so that it will free up video memory.

Now then, my idea is simple. Say your in a city, before you walk into a room or building, you hit the trigger that spawns a couple of NPCs 1 or 2 civilians, and maybe a dark jedi attacking them. When you walk in, i script them running away, into other room etc, and the dark jedi does whatever he wants to do... so you go in and kill the jedi. When your done, and leave the room, you walk out, and then as you walk further into the level, i tell the game to remove the civilians (if you killed them it doesnt matter) so once they are removed your vid. card gets some memory back (not that it will get that much, depending on the number of NPCs)

Its not that the game cant handle it, it just has to be done in the proper way.
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Old 10-23-2003, 09:30 PM   #19
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Does ayone remember Drazen Island mod for JK1? That was a good civilian interaction

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Old 10-23-2003, 11:09 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Master_Keralys

I don't think it would have been that difficult on places like Coruscant. After all
spoiler:
there were all sorts of Jedi on Korriban, fighting with all sorts of Reborn. Like, six of each at once at a couple points.
If the computer can handle that, which is probably the most graphically intense part of the game, then it ought to be able to handle a few more NPC's where they'd make a big difference.
I play JA with a 32meg TNT2, and the korriban map had no lag at all even with all the jedi running around (but only around 40fps...fast considering how old tat card is)(at 800x600 tho )
(but some parts the coruscant tram level had dropped to around 10fps......oi~)
so as long as the #of npcs are not tat much....it doesnt hit performance....
yea and i agree about having only 1 event determine light/dark
we should be able to kill rosh more than once! jk~
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Old 10-24-2003, 07:18 AM   #21
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Well, in a lot of levels you're supposed to be in a 'scummy' area, so most of the civilians ARE bad guys.
Obviously any random guy on the street in places like Nar Shadar or tatooine is supposed to say "hey look! I fight! I must join in! Oh look, that guy can't be shot at because he's using a light sabre! Oh look, that guy just got cut in half!"*runs in to the fight*
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Old 10-24-2003, 10:46 AM   #22
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There's always player-map sp levels in the future

Just look at Commenor, it MAY have some civilian treats in the further installments




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Old 10-24-2003, 03:28 PM   #23
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Are you hinting at something there, Pnut_Master?

Lag couldn't be an issue; I think it was probably just more than they wanted to deal with as far as scritpting. However, I feel that having other people around to deal with would have incredibly enhanced the feel of the game. I mean, how fun was it to go evil and kill all the civilians back in JK1? And it really meant something then. It also adds a lot of authenticity to the feel of a game when you have things like that. AFter all, being a Jedi is about protecting people. Killing should be a last resort, not the first thing that comes to mind. Now, since this is a shooter game, that's going to be different, but the aforementioned example with a dark Jedi going after civilians would be awesome - join him, or kill him to save the people!


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Old 10-24-2003, 04:03 PM   #24
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It is ironic that being a Jedi means killing everything in sight. This game seems to have gone the way of Quake and Doom. Unfortunately.
God forbid the first game in the entire Dark Forces series had you go around killing everyone...

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Old 10-24-2003, 06:00 PM   #25
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Ah, it finally comes up. I've been waitng for this .

There's a big difference between Dark Forces - where you're a merc and all you should really care about is getting paid - and Jedi Knight, JK2, and JA, where you should care about saving other people. That's the point of being a Jedi, isn't it?


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Old 10-24-2003, 06:28 PM   #26
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That true, but the scripting would be annoying. Plus ive heard the it was a rush job anyways. Scripting takes time (unless you want the civilians to just stand there!)
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Old 10-24-2003, 06:33 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
unless you want the civilians to just stand there!
like they do in galaxies?
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Old 10-24-2003, 07:37 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Master_Keralys
Ah, it finally comes up. I've been waitng for this .

There's a big difference between Dark Forces - where you're a merc and all you should really care about is getting paid - and Jedi Knight, JK2, and JA, where you should care about saving other people. That's the point of being a Jedi, isn't it?
Note to fool: Dark Forces 2: Jedi Knight. Ring a bell to you? Yes, that's right, the ENTIRE Jedi Knight premise is a subset to the Dark Forces series.

Hell, Jedi Knight II payed homage to the origonal Dark Forces, when you did not have force powers and the saber right off the bat while playing as Kyle.

And blowing the hell out of the Dark Trooper project, doesn't that count towards the saving people bit?

As far as your Jedi argument goes, check the last scene after you blow the Arc Hammer to oblivion, it comes out of Vader's own mouth.

So no, there is no difference.
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Old 10-24-2003, 08:19 PM   #29
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I understand that. I also understand that a mercenary has fewer commitments to that sort of thing. I also understand that the game engine DF was developed on was probably not able to do this sort of thing. This engine is fully capable of realizing it; the droids and jawas showed that.

Luke, that's a good call. It was a rush job. [sarcasm]Thank you so very much LEC. We love you![/sarcasm]

However, it would be nice to see that kind of attention to detail in future games of this series or even just games like it.

The point about the scummy areas is good too. However, I wasn't suggesting that those get the attention. I think that would have been better for Coruscant's underlevels, not its highest levels. (Speaking of which, why would a crimelord be at the top of the kilometers-high towers of Coruscant? It seems a little odd to me, since that's where the high end people live. Maybe he's in the government too. And if they knew about the crime lord before you got sent in, why did they wait till he was sending out assassin droids to take him out? Just a couple of thoughts) Coruscant's upper levels should have nice people around that you have to protect. Think about how much life there was there the movies!


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Old 10-24-2003, 08:47 PM   #30
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i like crowds and crap like that. since i dont have an x-box (lol) i cant wait for KOTOR to come out for PC
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Old 10-24-2003, 08:48 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Master_Keralys
I also understand that the game engine DF was developed on was probably not able to do this sort of thing.
You also have to take into consideration that DF is [b]how old?[b]

Hold on... let me get the CD case... around 1995, I believe. That's the days of Doom/Quake.
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Old 10-24-2003, 08:48 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by Master_Keralys
Coruscant's upper levels should have nice people around that you have to protect. Think about how much life there was there the movies!
On Coruscant you run from a roof to another and last time I checked there aren't much civilians that spend their day on a roof.

If you look below you will see all the Coruscant traffic, you may try to jump on one of those "cars" down below anakin-style and see if the driver is willing to talk with you

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Old 11-04-2003, 08:25 PM   #33
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Let's see if we can bump this You're on roofs, sure. But that doesn't mean that there are no civilians. Come on, it's Coruscant! Course, I still think we should have been a couple hundred floors down. And the layout of the level made little sense. There weren't even doors into the buildings - locked doors make sense. How else do the get outside - jump out the window? My point was that it would have made the game more real feeling if they'd had civilians here or there.


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Old 11-05-2003, 02:45 PM   #34
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I REALLY missed the civilians in this game. I mean for crying out loud, not even in mission 1 are there civilians. (Maybe it's just me, but it would be odd if the mercs had the authority to seal off the area because 2 Jedi and a monkey are spoiling their plans.)

As for Coruscant I was really disappointed. It is the biggest city in the universe but it is represented by huge black boxes with crummy yellow and blue squares as windows. Where are all the bars, shops and people? Where is the intense city speeder chase? Why can't I go pee on a public lavatory?

The motives of Raven and LEC are hidden, but not adding civilians is like... Indiana Jones without his hat


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Old 11-05-2003, 02:51 PM   #35
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yeah, i agree, civilian npc's should be there...the PS2 game Bounty Hunter has lots of npc's wandering around...try that one!


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Old 11-06-2003, 06:55 AM   #36
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The point of my comments was missed... if you want a game with tons of NPC's wandering around in a realistic environment, a dedicated FPS game like JA is not the place to look.

It might suck that SWG isn't an FPS, but it has loads of npc's and its multiplayer.

More graphically primitive games can also use the memory they save on eye candy to make more npc's wandering around in the environment.

And creating those huge environments and supporting all those players comes at a price... hence why you have a monthly fee with SWG.

For now, you just can't have your cake and eat it too. Sorry...


But, if you can point me to another FPS game with graphics comparable to JA that offers npc's and realistic environment akin to something like Galaxies or KOTOR, be my guest and show it to me. I'll concede the point.


If you're justing wanting the number of npc's in a map that JK/MotS had, you can already do that if you make your own maps though.


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Old 11-06-2003, 07:16 AM   #37
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Playing this game through, I remember there being about 12-20 NPCs in some areas, I have some screens of many more than that on my system, which isn't exactly state of the art (GeForce 2 GTS). It didn't lag, this was in multiplayer with about 30 NPCs on screen. In the beginning of the map t2_trip, I spawned a TON of rebels and droid assassins, HUGE battle, until my game crashed, but I think that was a bug with the npc spawn cheat code.
With about 30-35 NPCs on screen, I lost about 5 FPS! That's on my old system too.

It's easily do-able. We're not asking for huge expansive land scapes Kurgan, we just want a little life in the game! It IS Jedi Knight, isn't it?
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Old 11-06-2003, 05:06 PM   #38
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Exactly. I made that point earlier. The engine can easily handle the NPC's. Think about the battles on Korriban. And a couple open areas would be nice, with a little less linearity. The engine should be able to do that, too.


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Old 11-06-2003, 06:35 PM   #39
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SW:KOTOR will be JA with npc's and D&D rules. And lots of other rpg stuff...

JA could do with some, and some of it's levels (like coruscant) could do with npc's. But remember the starting level from MoTs and the spaceport one, where you played Mara Jade.

Those were both great levels and JA should be more like them. In the old SW films, you often saw the characters in towns (the cantina in ANH for example).

Hopefully KOTOR will bring this kind of gaming, and leave JA to do what it wants.


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Old 11-06-2003, 07:15 PM   #40
G_Moo
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As far as the "Kill Everything in Sight" problem:

Hey, you guys aren't thinking like Jedi's. You don't have to kill everyone you see. All you have to do is disarm them, like a nice little good Jedi would do. Force Pull the weapons out of there hands, and they'll surrender, instead of fighting you.
I first noticed this when I was running around with the same mentality: "Gee, if I'm such a good guy, and not using my force power to attack, like Obi Wan said, why are all these guys dying?"
Then, in the last level of JA, I noticed that the students of the Jedi Academy weren't killing everyone; instead the stormtroopers were running around with their hands in the air. That's when I figured it out.
'Pull' the weapons from their hands, use a bit of ammo, and do it again (you have to deplete your ammo, otherwise when you pull the weapon out and, instead of picking it up for yourself, it'll sit on the ground, and they'll grab it back and use it against you again).
There, now you're a good Jedi, and the game becomes alot harder.

I agree that it seems a bit silly that its one event that turns you from Light to Dark. Perhaps it should've been a build up of various things like which force powers you choose, which you use, and how you deal with combat, but that smacks alot of an RPG, which I think is something the designers wanted to avoid.

By the way, when exactly were you going to interact with nuetral NPCs? To me, the dumb droids and jawas just got in the way. I mean, were you going to strike up a coversation?

"Hey, how ya doin'?"

"I'm alright. Say, I was wondering, did you see any cultists running around, trailing chaos and havoc behind them?"

"Oh, yeah, I did. As a matter of fact, there's one now, sticking his lightsaber into your back."

"Gee! Thanks! Excuse me now while I die and restart this level."

Ummmm... Did you get anywhere, here?

Yeah, it would've been cute to see a bunch of people running away from the combat instead of joining in, but why, really, is that so neccesary?

And how exactly would diplocamy work? You get into a conversation, and pick your response from a list (ala 'Fallout', if any of you played it), and see what happens? If you mess up, then you failed the mission and go on? So? Pick another mission and continue. Because you'll never be back around that part of the galaxy, your failing will have no meaning in the long run, so why bother including the idea?
Instead, the designers chose to to allow missions that you had to complete using skill, not picking random conversation quotes.
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