lfnetwork.com mark read register faq members calendar

Thread: Staff butterfly counters
Thread Tools Display Modes
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Old 11-17-2003, 03:18 AM   #1
AnArKey
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 61
Staff butterfly counters

Anyone know any?

Background, I pretty much own staff and dual users, and any single user who doesn't know what they are doing very well.

However, without throw, I can't do anything against the staff butterfly. If someone uses it in a duel, and I mean NOTHING but butterfly after butterfly, I just run away to break the duel. Nothing else I can do. In FFAs where everyone is using it, I have to just leave or switch to staff and spam it too.

This is not a gut reaction to it. I have a effective counter or counters to just about every other move in this game. But after long experimentation, I can't find a weakness to the staff butterfly.

Here's my take on the move:

Unblockable: If you get touched by someone doing it, you WILL get hit.

VERY high damage: Not always a one hit kill, but 2/3 times it is.

Uberblocker: The person doing the butterfly blocks nearly everything. Even a saber throw gets blocked and your saber drops to the ground half the time. A wide horizontal red swing with a big windup gets deflected almost everytime. Once in a great while, it will hit.

The fact that it blocks nearly everything, combined with it's extreamly high damage, means trying to counter it will get you killed more often than killing him.

It's really frustrating, because I love to make people who spam anything pay for it. With butterfly, I can't.

I'd love to hear anyone who thinks they have a effective counter, that WORKS. If you haven't done it yourself, don't bother posting what you think should work ok?
AnArKey is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-17-2003, 03:43 AM   #2
Sam Fisher
eh.
 
Sam Fisher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 6,466
I just do a horizontal red swing intpo them, and it knocks them out of the move, then I get a free hit. Easy as that. Well, its not that easy.

BTW, if you spin while doing the red horizontal swing, you can block the staffs' butterfly. As, long as you are on the side of it, and not in front of it.




stuck in an eternity of sunshine and chocolate.
Sam Fisher is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-17-2003, 04:22 AM   #3
babywax
 
babywax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 259
Hold back, and do overhead red swipe. Keep backing up, and use your superior range to nail em all the way until they end it. It's hard to do, but if they're really spamming it you can do it. It takes practice though.

I think it would be a well balanced move if it either took 50 force or it didn't do damage at the end when you're twirling on the ground, so someone has time to counter it.
babywax is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-17-2003, 05:12 AM   #4
Kurgan
Headhunter
 
Kurgan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1997
Location: The Dawn of Time
Posts: 18,324
LFN Staff Member 10 year veteran! 
I simply avoid it. Don't think I've ever gotten killed by that move in all honesty.

Maybe that means I have yet to meet somebody who's good with it? Who knows, in any case, I don't even worry about it for the most part.

If I see the move come I just get out of the way then strike when they're recovering from the move. That's assuming it was a saber battle. If it's guns, I just take out an explosive and blast them to Kingdom Come whilst laughing... ; )


Download JK2 maps for JA Server|BOOT CAMP!|Strategic Academy|
(JA Server: 108.178.55.189:29070)


"The Concussion Rifle is the weapon of a Jedi Knight Player, an elegant weapon, from a more civilized community." - Kyle Katarn
Kurgan is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-17-2003, 05:17 AM   #5
Qaz
Rookie
 
Qaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 37
your main problem is that you kinda suck...

attack them right at the end

No 95% of the time u will not get hit...

thats the way i do it and it works...
Qaz is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-17-2003, 07:36 AM   #6
CapNColostomy
Custom User Title
 
CapNColostomy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Across your face.
Posts: 2,497
Quote:
Originally posted by Qaz
your main problem is that you kinda suck...

attack them right at the end

No 95% of the time u will not get hit...

thats the way i do it and it works...
Quote:
Originally posted by Qaz
your main problem is that you kinda suck...

attack them right at the end

No 95% of the time u will not get hit...

thats the way i do it and it works...
Your main problem is double posting. Which sucks.


CapNColostomy is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-17-2003, 06:13 PM   #7
Chuahtemoc
 
Chuahtemoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: I am a domesticated cow
Posts: 234
Thumbs down

lol @ the double posting thingy.

but I usually just turn and run from those damn butterfly spammers if im on the light side (unless I have protect. Then i'll go straight at em) but if i'm on the dark side force push them, lightning them, or grip em. Even drain works, since it drags out the force mana, causing them to stop early.


YORIMOTO says SUMiSUMi!!!


"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation." - Thomas Jefferson

"It is vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, peace, peace; but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?

Forbid it, Almighty God -- I know not what course others may take; but as for me -- give me liberty or give me death!" - Patrick Henry


3x50p 11.21.03
Chuahtemoc is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-18-2003, 02:59 AM   #8
AnArKey
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 61
I have tested this with a friend for a good long while. Red horizontal swings get blocked outright by the butterfly, even at the end, 3/4 of the time. You are so much as a inch too close, you get hit for 100-200 dmg. In other words, far more risk than reward in trying to counter that way.

And no, I don't suck. Feel free to duel me anytime you see me. #1 on any server 9/10 times.
AnArKey is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-18-2003, 08:17 AM   #9
Akshara
 
Akshara's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: In your mind
Posts: 265
As a Staff wielder exclusively since day one, here's my experience on the subject from the receiving side...

*Single Saber Lunge timed well gets through the butterfly very effectively. It's extremely frustrating, 'cause you can see it coming just before the lunge but can't stop the butterfly motion once it's begun.

*Dual Roll Stab from the left side (my left) at the end of the Butterfly is very effective.

*At all times in the Butterfly there is a vulnerable side, so watch the arc of the saber and look for the negative space. There are only three Butterfly moves - Forward, Left, and Right. It's not difficult to learn their trajectories and practice targeting the weak spots.

*Leap over the Butterfly and attack from behind just before or after the final spin... if you miss you're probably dead though.

*Force Pull or Push and leap out of the way. Many times I've been knocked off course when my force is low... the Butterfly uses 25 force mana points, so on a normal force server there are several strategies for getting the Staff user's force low enough so that they are vulnerable during the move.

*Time the Butterfly, and then leap straight up so that you land behind them after the move is finished. Then do a backslash/stab.

*The trajectory is not a straight line, with limited movement capabilites. If they're attacking from a far range, at the very end of the move the Fwd Butterfly lands a little to the left (my left) of the original position, and many spammers or newbies might not realize this.. if one realizes this, they can evade the end move without running away.

*There's a Fwd/Rt kick just before the final twirl of the move.... if one's got really good timing a strike from below could take it out, though I've yet to see this happen.

*In general, when people see the Butterfly they run away. But remember, the Butterfly has a relatively fixed trajectory so it's highly predictable if one knows what to look for. The other night there was one guy who didn't move at all and at the last minute would do an upward lunge - it one-hit killed me just about everytime. So yes, it is possible to counter the Butterfly and it's not ustoppable.

With the Staff, it's also not difficult to take down other Staff Butterfly spammers. I enjoy doing it while holding Shift Walk down, or by kicking them on their butt. The Butterfly is not the most effective move in the Staff Wielder's arsenal.


Be Mindful of Your Thoughts...

-----

Online name: Zhen Jou

Last edited by Akshara; 11-18-2003 at 08:35 AM.
Akshara is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-18-2003, 08:37 AM   #10
Akshara
 
Akshara's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: In your mind
Posts: 265
Quote:
Don't think I've ever gotten killed by that move in all honesty.
Um... I think you might be mistaken on this point, Kurgan. At least if memory serves me correctly... I seem to recall a decapitated body falling to the floor clenching a thermal detonator.

When the Butterfly is done properly, you don't see it coming.



Be Mindful of Your Thoughts...

-----

Online name: Zhen Jou
Akshara is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-18-2003, 03:53 PM   #11
Kurgan
Headhunter
 
Kurgan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1997
Location: The Dawn of Time
Posts: 18,324
LFN Staff Member 10 year veteran! 
Wink

Was that before or after I posted? ; )

Maybe my memory just slipped, hehe


Anyway, good counter (used on me a lot earlier today) is the Blue Lunge (vs. butterfly).


Download JK2 maps for JA Server|BOOT CAMP!|Strategic Academy|
(JA Server: 108.178.55.189:29070)


"The Concussion Rifle is the weapon of a Jedi Knight Player, an elegant weapon, from a more civilized community." - Kyle Katarn
Kurgan is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-18-2003, 09:22 PM   #12
DarthCobra
 
DarthCobra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: USA
Posts: 380
Butterfly counters are about the most difficult thing to accomplish in this game i think. I've found 2 moves that are very hard to time but very effective if placed properly. I belive the lunge was mentioned, but it usally takes 2 of them and your almost always likely to take alot of damage if not outright killed. My fav is a red kata, if you wait for just before the last turn an start it on the open side and you continue to aim it thru the butterfly spamming joker it can kill them. Again these counters are extreamly difficult to time. Its best just to avoid them all together. Also I find that the double saber barrier if spun correctly works best.



The Goal of a Sith is to fight without thought.
There is no pain where strength lies.
DarthCobra is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-18-2003, 10:05 PM   #13
AnArKey
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 61
I admit lunge CAN work, but you are certain to get hit and take massive damage or get killed outright. After a lunge, it takes about .5sec before the animation is over and you can jump/roll away. So in that time, he will spin back around and hit you.

I see two possible outcomes:

1. He gets hit bad, you get hit bad.
2. You miss, and get hit bad.

Still not worth the attempt. Better chance of dying than killing.

I'm not sure if butterfly will block lunge, knocking your saber away, and you STILL get hit. Have to test it. I think that can happen.

I think this move would be far more balanced if they removed how well it blocks and knocks sabers away for just about any attack on it. The blocking is bad enough, then when your saber gets knocked away the other side of the staff comes around and ZAP, dead.

You can keep the high damage it causes, but it should be made more vulnerable. All the katas have vulnerability holes a mile wide, why shouldn't butterfly which only costs half as much mana?
AnArKey is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-18-2003, 10:18 PM   #14
Chuahtemoc
 
Chuahtemoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: I am a domesticated cow
Posts: 234
Lunge works, but you need to start right when the saber is spinning at you, or you won't make the tiny hole you need. Also, if it's a team game, it helps to find thermal dets, a repeater, or something that does big damage from a long dist. Another thing--being a sniper I thought of it pretty much immeadiately--get a disruptor and disintegrate em, full power! You've got the time, why the hell not?


YORIMOTO says SUMiSUMi!!!


"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation." - Thomas Jefferson

"It is vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, peace, peace; but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?

Forbid it, Almighty God -- I know not what course others may take; but as for me -- give me liberty or give me death!" - Patrick Henry


3x50p 11.21.03
Chuahtemoc is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-19-2003, 12:22 AM   #15
Akshara
 
Akshara's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: In your mind
Posts: 265
AnArKey...

Those weren't hypothecial moves I listed above; they are actual situations I've encountered ingame that were done by really good players and took me out. The only one I haven't personally encountered was the upward attack beneath the kick before the final spin, but it would work.

I'm a good Staff wielder - not the best by far, but pretty good. It's not as "all-powerful" a move as you perceive it to be, and I often encounter other players who can cut through the butterfly regularly. The ones who have the most difficult time defeating me are other staff users quite honestly... usually because they time their butterfly or kata really badly and I take advantage of it.

Load up an MP map and use the Staff for a little while, putting it thorugh it's paces. That's probably the best way to find it's weaknesses... and strengths.


Be Mindful of Your Thoughts...

-----

Online name: Zhen Jou
Akshara is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Go Back   LucasForums > Network > JediKnight Series > Help Center > Strategy Shack > Staff butterfly counters

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:59 AM.

LFNetwork, LLC ©2002-2011 - All rights reserved.
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.