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Old 12-06-2003, 07:48 AM   #81
Elijah
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle
Oh my god, that girl has dark skin!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111 She must be suffering from a skin illness!!!!!!!!!!111

Oh my God, can you believe that guy just ATE a cow?????????!!!!!!! They just took a living cow and killed and ate it! Mental illness!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111111111111111111111 1111
I see the point you are trying to make, but those examples hardly cut it...

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Oh, and stop comparing pedophilia and animal sex with homosexuality.
Why? I have to agree with them on this... If homosexuality is so right, then what is wrong with having sex with a family member? I mean, if both family members agree, its ok isnt it?
Or how about an animal? I mean what if the animal likes it?
Or how about a kid? what if the child enjoys it also?

Rather then demanding everyone see it your way, look at how they see it, in hopes that you can better underastand the point you are trying to argue.
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Old 12-06-2003, 11:03 AM   #82
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I see the point you are trying to make, but those examples hardly cut it...
...on the contrary, I believe the analogies Dagobahn Eagle used were perfectly valid.

A lot of vegaterians do indeed see killing and eating a cow as barbaric and unmoral... Now I'm not one of them (I'm not a vegaterian), but it demonstrates the point were trying to make.

...if you have no better reason to 'ban' homosexual unions then 'you don't like homosexuality, it's revolting, disgusting blah blah blah' - well - plain and simply, that's just not a good enough reason. It would be the same as a vegetarian trying to tell me I have no right to eat meat JUST because they don't agree with it.

Do vegeterians have a point? In certain respects, they have very good points. But do they have the right to tell me what to do JUST because we have different moral outlooks?

...hell no is the answer to that...

Quote:

If homosexuality is so right, then what is wrong with having sex with a family member? I mean, if both family members agree, its ok isnt it?
Or how about an animal? I mean what if the animal likes it?
Or how about a kid? what if the child enjoys it also?

Rather then demanding everyone see it your way, look at how they see it, in hopes that you can better underastand the point you are trying to argue.
If you read my last few posts, you will see that I have already covered all this... do try and keep up...

Last edited by CloseTheBlastDo; 12-07-2003 at 03:23 PM.
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Old 12-06-2003, 02:13 PM   #83
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Quote:
Why? I have to agree with them on this... If homosexuality is so right, then what is wrong with having sex with a family member? I mean, if both family members agree, its ok isnt it?
Or how about an animal? I mean what if the animal likes it?
Or how about a kid? what if the child enjoys it also?
I'm not even going to answer this.

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and if its not an illness then why would you want to have sex with your own gender!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????
I want to further address this: The only argument you've used against gays is that they have a mental illness. So let's suppose for a second that that is true (which it isn't, and I should hardly have to point that out, should I?). Well, just that someone has a mental illness doesn't have to mean you have a sound reason to hate them.

Do you hate everyone who's bipolar or depressed too? Do you hate everyone who have Alzheimer's? Do you hate people who hear voices? Do you hate people with Post-Traumatic Stress Syndrome?

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Old 12-06-2003, 02:56 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally posted by CloseTheBlastDo
[B]...on the contrary, I believe the analogies Dagobahn Eagle used were perfectly valid.

A lot of vegaterians do indeed see killing and eating a cow as barbaric and unmoral... Now I'm not one of them (I'm not a vegaterian), but it demonstrates the point were trying to make.

...if you have no better reason to dislike homosexual unions then 'you don't like homosexuality, it's revolting, disgusting blah blah blah' - well - plain and simply, that's just not a good enough reason. It would be the same as a vegetarian trying to tell me I have no right to eat meat JUST because they don't agree with it.

Do vegeterians have a point? In certain respects, they have very good points. But do they have the right to tell me what to do JUST because we have different moral outlooks?

...hell no is the answer to that...
Ah ah ah, don't be hypocritical... You just told him that 'it isn't a good enough reason', in essence telling him to think differently as well. It is not your right to tell him if his reasons are good enough unless by a technical standpoint.


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Old 12-06-2003, 03:16 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally posted by ZDawg
Why? I have to agree with them on this...
Then my opinion of you isn't as high as it was before you said that.

Quote:
Originally posted by ZDawg
Or how about an animal? I mean what if the animal likes it?
Having sex with another species, one that isn't sentient, is hardly the same as falling in love and making a mutual commitment with an adult of your own species, now is it?

Quote:
Originally posted by ZDawg
Or how about a kid? what if the child enjoys it also?
Falling in love and expecting a commitment with a child isn't the same as two consenting adults agreeing that they are compatible for a long-term relationship. I think using the "child" analogy is a sign that your digging for straws.

Quote:
Originally posted by ZDawg
If homosexuality is so right, then what is wrong with having sex with a family member? I mean, if both family members agree, its ok isnt it?
Why would you assume that incest taboos that exist in families of heterosexuals wouldn't also exist in families of homosexuals. The fact of the matter is, the incest taboo has the hidden agenda of maintaining variation within the gene pool. In addition, incest taboos within families also prevent the complications that go along with intimate relationships (familial relationships can be complicated enough). But throughout history, this taboo has been ignored in the interests of socio-economic and political gain. King Tutt was likely husband to his sister as were monarchs in England or France in the past.

Quote:
Originally posted by ZDawg
Rather then demanding everyone see it your way, look at how they see it, in hopes that you can better underastand the point you are trying to argue.
The only "demand" is that the "moral majority" end it's illogical oppression of homosexuals. The institution of marriage belongs to the state, not the church. Laws of the state should should ensure that all people have equal access to the law itself. This means that marriage between two people of the same gender should be allowed. Ending this prohibition will most likely have lasting economical contribution to society in general as the number of "family" incomes will increase (A unit with $50 - 100 k income per year can afford to buy more than a unit with $25 - 50 k income per year).

MK finally posted some of the data, which I admittedly haven't had the opportunity to look at yet, but if Datheus' quote was accurate: "The median length of homosexual relationships in the SIGMA survey was 21 months," then one also has to consider that there is a full 50% of those surveyed that had relationships lasting longer than 1.8 years. One has to wonder how many of that 50% had relationships that were still on-going at the close of the study. I'll check the link later, perhaps it will give me a clue as to where I can find the actual peer-reviewed paper that includes all data and methodology......

An interesting point, too, is that the study group included "gay and bi-sexual men in England and Wales." Question: is same-sex marriage legal here? If not, wouldn't the study be affected by the stresses associated with couples who cannot finalize a legal commitment to each other?

Even not having the chance to read it yet, it looks like the SIGMA data favors the same-sex marriage argument.


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Old 12-06-2003, 03:58 PM   #86
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I wasnt planning on posting here.. because i truly think its pointless. but anyways..

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If thats not the case and you like your own sex, you must have been abused, raped, or have grown up in some way that damaged the way you think and behave.

I agree mostly with this, but i dont think that has to happen to be homosexual. You know how you can "convince yourself" of some things, im sure thats happend before. Also, ive said this before, but i know a guy in school thats homosexual, and his dad hates him. I think what happend was (i could be wrong, since i dont know the guy very well) he lacked the "male attention" from his father, so he decided to look elswhere for it, becoming homosexual. Like i said, it may not have happend, but I think its possible that it did. I dont know, maybe his dad hates him because he is homosexual.

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Old 12-06-2003, 05:29 PM   #87
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I don't think lack of male attention can be a reason of homosexuality. Love from a father and love from another man is very different.

I feel sorry for him that his father hates him...


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Old 12-06-2003, 06:59 PM   #88
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Quote:
If homosexuality is so right, then what is wrong with having sex with a family member? I mean, if both family members agree, its ok isnt it?
Except they will directly hurt the child they could have, because of genetic deficiancy.

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Or how about an animal? I mean what if the animal likes it?
Find me an animal that openly consents it, and then I'll listen to your point.

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Or how about a kid? what if the child enjoys it also?
Gee, that's why there are laws of consent. Children dont have the education nor wisdom to fully understand things like sex or alchohol.



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Old 12-06-2003, 06:59 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
I agree mostly with this, but i dont think that has to happen to be homosexual. You know how you can "convince yourself" of some things, im sure thats happend before.
Well, then perhaps you are convincing yourself that you are heterosexual when you are indeed homosexual. Maybe everyone is. And don't tell me that "it's not natural!" Hardly anything we do is natural anymore. If you want to go out and hunt for twigs and berries (the NATURAL way we get food) for a month, please do so. If you survive, I'd be willing to listen to your "natural" argument.

As humans, we are smart enough to have homosexual relationships yet still continue to populate the Earth.

Quote:
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
Also, ive said this before, but i know a guy in school thats homosexual, and his dad hates him. I think what happend was (i could be wrong, since i dont know the guy very well) he lacked the "male attention" from his father, so he decided to look elswhere for it, becoming homosexual. Like i said, it may not have happend, but I think its possible that it did. I dont know, maybe his dad hates him because he is homosexual.
Doctor Phil, there is nothing below the surface here. Plenty of fathers disown their sons and some of them are gay. Some of them are straight. Plenty of fathers love their sons. Some of them turn out gay. Some of them are straight. Some fathers are gay. Plenty of their sons are gay. Plenty are not.

You can't just draw a single line and say that A causes B. The human mind is much more complext than that. Hell, a monkey's mind is much more complex than that. A person is the collective sum of every nanosecond in their life. You can't just pinpoint one thing in someone's life and draw a conclusion. It doesn't matter if it homosexuality, pedophilia, inferiority complexes, superiority complexes, love, hate, or humor. Just because your nanoseconds equate to heterosexuality does not Billy Bob from High School's nanseconds are messed up at one particular sliver of time. It does not mean your nanoseconds are messed up either.

Just as there are universal laws that we are taught in science class, everyone's universe is their own. They have their own set of rules. Their rules do not apply to you. And you do not apply to them.
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Old 12-06-2003, 07:49 PM   #90
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Thank you to everyone who answered my questions, but you guys misunderstood what I was saying...

All I was trying to say, is I agree with them, in the sense of "well if this is right and acceptable, why isn’t this"
I understand there are health issues involved in incest, having sex with animals and mental problems with having sex with children... but I'm trying to see this from the view of all the anti homosexuals out there. As I've already seen it from the other point of view.

Skinwalker, saying I agree with them, is not the same as me saying I support them... I was simply using the same reasoning as Dagobahn Eagle, if A can be right, why cant B?
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Old 12-06-2003, 08:51 PM   #91
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Post Okay, algebra time!

The Eagle theorem states that A might perfectly well equal B.

However, I never used it as broadly as you did. I maintain the Eagle Theorem is true, but it depends on what you use for B.

The full theorem states that
Quote:
In an equation where A=An accepted harmless act, and B=An unaccepted harmless act, A may equal B.
For example, if you let B stand for rape or child sex while you let A stand for petting someone you love, and who loves you, on the back when you both want it, you ruin the equation.

But if A=Traditional marriage and B=Gay marriage, it does. You see (and don't make me quiz you on this)?

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Old 12-06-2003, 10:29 PM   #92
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What makes you think Homosexuals don't want a lasting relationship? Proof from "studies"? Studies that asked homosexuals if they wanted to get married, when they knew full well they couldn't get married and would live with the stigma a "union" gave them?

Be reasonable. This is about the same as saying all bisexuals must be whores that will sleep with anyone, and all live in an "open relationship" - another popular myth.


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Old 12-07-2003, 03:48 PM   #93
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Ah ah ah, don't be hypocritical... You just told him that 'it isn't a good enough reason', in essence telling him to think differently as well. It is not your right to tell him if his reasons are good enough unless by a technical standpoint.
Sorry, my mistake.

I said you can't just 'dislike' homosexuality for so and so reason. Sorry, I typed the wrong thing. I meant to say 'ban' homosexuality (i.e. gay marriages).

...I've edited my post and corrected that...
I'm not saying people don't have the right to dislike gay unions - they do.
I AM, however, against people telling other people they can't have them, just because they don't personally like it.


And I also mirror C'jais and SkinWalker's worries about how accurate or 'meaningful' the stasistic mentioned is - concerning the frequency and duration of homosexual 'closed' relationships.

You DO have to take into account the fact that these homosexual relationships will be under immense pressure. I'm sure many of them are conducted in secret, to avoid condemnation from people such as those who post in this forum.
...and you thought celebrity couples had it bad!! I can only imagine what it must be like to try and hold a relationship like that together - with a good majority of the world looking down on you - and comparing you to animals...

..but anyway, in the end - the bottom line is I don't think the statistic even matters, even if it IS accurate, or representitive of the under-lying truth.
The fact is if two gay people ask for a marriage, but are told that they can't because statistically, the marriage isn't destined to last - that's just blatently irrelavent. WHy should a statistic decide the fate of THAT particular couple?

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Old 12-07-2003, 08:00 PM   #94
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I love watching people trying to justify forcing religious beliefs on others and then turning around and saying its not because of their religion....

Get my point? Overwhelmingly, the people who are against homosexuality are also Christian, or religious in some sense. They have already come to the conclusion that homosexuality is a sin, and it's wrong, and it's evil, and it's a choice, because an old book says so.

Based on this presumption, they then search for reasoning to back up their position. Of course, to properly come to a conclusion, they would have to have none to begin with....


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Old 12-07-2003, 10:23 PM   #95
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Ok, Gay couples "statistically" don't last, so what, neither do many heterosexual relationships. Hell my parents are divorced. So are we saying you can't get married unless you are destined to live a wonderful life in a monogamous relationship?

Why do many of these homophobic men say it's not right to be gay unless you're a hot blonde with huge assets and are kissing on another chick of equal hotness? I support all harmLESS "alternative" lifestyles (I use the word alternative loosely because who am I or anyone else to label peoples personal lives). People use the example of incest and child molestation, well I have statistics for you, child molestations and acts of incest are more often commited by the Heterosexual people. So if you are a heterosexual man you are more likely to rape a little boy than a gay man.

Now the thing about the argument of if we allow gay marriages we should allow child sex, well that's just complete and utter bullsh*t (as stated many times before), the point of allowing gay marriages is to give free rights to two consenting adults. Rape, incest, pedophilia, and beastiality are not harmless choices, they are damaging and life altering events.
I remember hearing of a time when whites were not allowed to marry blacks or anyone non-white people, Christians used the bible to protest interracial marriages, just as they do to say gays can't marry. I also remember when whites considered non-whites to be animals in a human shape, Christians used the same "unatural" case then as they do now with homosexuals. People need to understand that using religion to interfere with personal choices (of a harmless nature) is pure BS and complete fascism. Many of these people against gays are also the guys saying America stands for freedom of choice and religion and life, liberty yada... yada well I think they really mean America stands for freedom of choice and relgion unless it's not my religion and the same choice as me.

Personally I don't believe in marriage in the religious fashion, I just wish to be married to symbolize my love for the woman I love, and for those wonderful financial benefits (shared tax filing, lower taxes, lower mortgage rate, etc.)
Just because you allow gay marriages to be recognized by the state doesn't mean the church should be the place it's set at. Hell when I get married I'm getting married at the courthouse, marriage isn't just a religious ceremony.

Though I think churches should accept gay marriages like they eventually did interracial marriages, but as I've said before, this is America: where everyone has a choice and a voice, NO ONE can force their opinions on anyone.

I believe in freedom of speech but I also believe in courtesy and being polite.


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Old 12-08-2003, 12:02 AM   #96
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Christians used the bible to protest interracial marriages, just as they do to say gays can't marry.

....

Christians used the same "unatural" case then as they do now with homosexuals.
When? Where? Link? Ive never ever heard about that? Not even in school... or anywhere. Im not saying it didnt happen, but I just want to know what happend. How did they use the bible to back themselves up? I've never read anything in the bible (that i can remember) that says whites and blacks cant mix. Now, i have read, there is no male nor female, no jew nor greek, no slave or free... so that basically says everyone is equal... ill stick with that. Also, im not sure if i said that right, im not sure where its at (dont remember) but the meaning is still the same.

Even if it did happen, if they didnt actually have something from the bible, its most likely a "false prophet" whos just starting trouble If they did, ill check it out.

-luke
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Old 12-08-2003, 01:57 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
When? Where? Link? Ive never ever heard about that? Not even in school... or anywhere.
It was a pretty common thing back in the day I was in school, but perhaps not so common now... I think it can be found in Alabama and other "deep South" states.

Basically, the idea stemmed from passages in the Bible that stated that Christians should marry only Christians. Since Christianity was largely a "white" institution back in the middle ages (at the era of the Protestant Reformation for example), non-whites were generally considered to be non-christian.

A look at the OneHumanRace website will show both sides of the argument (they present the other side but argue against it).

Basically, some fundamentalists, even today, use argue that because of Acts 17:26 and the mention of "one blood," people should stick to their own race. This bible verse must really be read into to get that, however!


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Old 12-08-2003, 05:18 AM   #98
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I love it that every debate in this forum turns to an anti-Christian argument...

Insanesith, please do not mistake the Old Catholic church of England, for the modern day Christian churches of America.

The Catholics also burned anyone they thought was a witch, and many other ridiculous things.

Interracial? please do read some of the old testament before you say that people would not marry out of race... try the story of Sampson for example. Among many other story’s, even before the old law was fulfilled
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Old 12-08-2003, 08:40 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally posted by ZDawg
I love it that every debate in this forum turns to an anti-Christian argument...
This has much to do with how almost every Christian's religiously enforced morals shine through in every ethical and scientific debate we have here. When we point it out, some people get obstinate.

Quote:
The Catholics also burned anyone they thought was a witch, and many other ridiculous things.
So did the protestants.

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Interracial? please do read some of the old testament before you say that people would not marry out of race... try the story of Sampson for example. Among many other story’s, even before the old law was fulfilled
The Bible also says you shall never kill, not even in self defense. It also tells us to be very nice to our neighbor. It even commands us not to pass judgment.

The Bible is just a book. It's not the Bible that's going around voting against homosexual marriages, refusing to take down a monument of the Ten Commandments, blowing up abortion clinics and murdering doctors.


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Old 12-08-2003, 12:06 PM   #100
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It's not the Bible that's going around voting against homosexual marriages, refusing to take down a monument of the Ten Commandments, blowing up abortion clinics and murdering doctors.

True, and I doubt God ment for "christians" (keep in mind, i seriously doubt they are christians) to blow up abortion clinics, and murder doctors.

Actually, interesting. You say homosexuality is harmless, and theres nothing wrong with allowing it. But, the ten commandments statue wasnt exactly doing anything wrong.

Remember, its not the bible's fault or God's fault that people do things. He commands, we can obey, or not obey. Hes not responsible for it.

Quote:
Basically, some fundamentalists, even today, use argue that because of Acts 17:26 and the mention of "one blood," people should stick to their own race. This bible verse must really be read into to get that, however!
A christian cant use that to say you cant marry a black or white person. Think about it, according to the religion Adam was the first man, whether he was black or white is irrelavent. He was the first, therefore everyone is related, included blacks and whites.

Quote:
Basically, the idea stemmed from passages in the Bible that stated that Christians should marry only Christians.
Yeah, think about how much we argue/debate online, and we dont even know each other. You think 2 people married together could live "peacefully" unless they both believe the same thing? Im not saying it couldnt happen, because it could, but it could also fail.
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Old 12-08-2003, 12:49 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally posted by ZDawg
I love it that every debate in this forum turns to an anti-Christian argument...

Insanesith, please do not mistake the Old Catholic church of England, for the modern day Christian churches of America.

The Catholics also burned anyone they thought was a witch, and many other ridiculous things.

Interracial? please do read some of the old testament before you say that people would not marry out of race... try the story of Sampson for example. Among many other story’s, even before the old law was fulfilled
ZDawg, I AM talking about the AMERICAN protestant churches in the 40's all the way to the 70's. In the south there is still the conservative denomination called Southern Baptist, They use the bible to claim interracial marriages are against god, just as many people say gay marriages are against god.

If you lived in Texas you can still see this racial fiasco crap still going on. I can't even walk down the street talking and holding hands with my Japanese girlfriend without some people looking at me like I'm a traitor to some cause. You want proof of what I'm talking about? read some books on the 50's and the KKK's reign of terror age. Christians much like yourselves (not accusing you all of being racist, just saying was a mainstream thought of many christians that are much like you all) were supporting the KKK because they believed the bible said non-whites could not have the same freedoms of whites, nor could they marry whites. The sad truth is many people still hold that opinion today. Now, they seemed to have expanded it to gays cannot marry. Technically by not allowing gays to marry the organized religions and governments (state and federal) are reviving assimilation.

PS: In the 50's a majority of all protestant denominations felt non-whites shouldn't have the same rights as whites, but after the civil rights movement people wisened up and went back to being the good people they were supposed to be, but the people that still felt segregation was the way of god, they became the Southern Baptist denomination of Christianity.

Oh, one of my mom's friends (a devout christian, much like you lot here) was appointed to work at an abortion clinic, that was understaffed (the UTA rapes brought in A LOT of pregnant teens who were victims of rape), It was later attacked with bricks thrown in windows, gas bombs thrown in, 3 people died including my moms friend and a nurses baby was killed. People who say they are pro-life really piss me off when they say they want everyone to have an equal chance at life, yet they bomb, assault, and flat out murder staff members of abortion clinics, patients at abortion clinics (many who have not yet had the abortion, thus making the pro-lifers the abortionists!), they also kill innocent people who are just walking infront of the damn building.

You probably won't hear about these stories unless you are a medical professional or have a parent or someone you know that is in the medical profession, many of these stories are actually kept quiet unless public awareness of the incedent is an absolute.

Oh and for those who don't realize the racial hatred in America during the 50's and 60's I recommend Ghosts of Mississipi. Hell check out the Rodney King story, one of the officers who beat him said Blacks were against god and unnatural.


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Old 12-08-2003, 01:09 PM   #102
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They use the bible to claim interracial marriages are against god, just as many people say gay marriages are against god.
Whats your point? The bible says homosexuality is wronge like 3 or 4 times. the main times i can think of is in Leviticus, and Romans. It never says you cant marry a person of different color. I dont care what they say, I care what the bible says, and as far as I know it doesnt say I cant marry someone who is a different color.


Also, you may be confused with the mormons (im really not sure if they consider themselves christians or not) but i *heard* (correct me if im wrong...) that they believe that blacks are "demonic" people or something.... and whites are pure... idk.
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Old 12-08-2003, 01:19 PM   #103
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Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
Whats your point? The bible says homosexuality is wronge like 3 or 4 times. the main times i can think of is in Leviticus, and Romans. It never says you cant marry a person of different color. I dont care what they say, I care what the bible says, and as far as I know it doesnt say I cant marry someone who is a different color.


Also, you may be confused with the mormons (im really not sure if they consider themselves christians or not) but i *heard* (correct me if im wrong...) that they believe that blacks are "demonic" people or something.... and whites are pure... idk.
I'm not confused with mormons. And I'm not saying you should agree with them, I'm just stating the similarity of their believing non-whites shouldn't have the same rights as whites, with the claim of gays shouldn't have the ability to marry. It's from a book. I don't disagree that Christianity has helped a lot of people, but like anything else in this world it has also hurt a lot of people. I won't say Christianity is the worst religion because it's not, all religions are bad together.

I'm just more prone to using Christianity as an example because I live in Texas, member of the bible belt.
I have equal amounts of problems with all religions. It's just people who criticize are more likely to criticize what they are surrounded by.

And my point is just because The Bible say something doesn't mean it should be law, it doesn't mean it's always black or white on the issue, there could have been a different intended meaning to the lying with men as one lies with a women thing. People make mistakes, it's called Misunderstanding, hell I'm a victim of it all the time and I misunderstand alot.


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Old 12-08-2003, 03:18 PM   #104
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Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
True, and I doubt God ment for "christians" (keep in mind, i seriously doubt they are christians) to blow up abortion clinics, and murder doctors.[/B]
Take a look at this Salon.Com. In this, the brother of Eric Rudolf (the abortion clinic, lesbian bar, & Olympic bomber) is quoted:

Jamie attributed his brother's anti-government views to a period in the early 1980s when his mother hauled them off to a Missouri commune run by the "Christian Identity" movement, which espouses militant white-power views.

It doesn't matter how much you don't agree that he's "christian," but he thinks he is. A christian is one who believes that god sent jesus christ to earth to do his work. Period. Simply disagreeing with one christian cult's perception of christianity doesn't invalidate them. THAT is the same fundamentalist bull that keeps occuring in the Middle East among Muslims. The Shiites don't think Sunni are legitimate, the Wassabi don't like either of them..., etc.

The fact is, Christian Fundamentalism is a very dangerous movement in our country. Timothy McVeigh is a prime example of it. Eric Rudolf is another. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of Rudolfs and McVeighs just waiting for the right stimuli to start their terror.

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Originally posted by lukeskywalker1 Actually, interesting. You say homosexuality is harmless, and theres nothing wrong with allowing it. But, the ten commandments statue wasnt exactly doing anything wrong.
By that, I'm assuming you're referring to the stone idol of christianity in the Alabama courthouse? Perhaps they should have left it in place. But then every other religion represented in the state should have the opportunity to place their own idols there as well. How do you think the "moral majority" would have responded if each of the 15 or so major Hindu gods had an effigy in place there? I'm a bit partial to Shiva, the Destroyer myself. Add a Buddha statue, a stone effigy of the Koran for effect and round it off with a statue of Ba'al in case he has any worshipers left.

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Originally posted by lukeskywalker1 Remember, its not the bible's fault or God's fault that people do things. He commands, we can obey, or not obey. Hes not responsible for it.
I've yet to hear even one command or request made by any god. I've read and heard a few people claim various god's have commanded various things....

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Originally posted by lukeskywalker1 A christian cant use that to say you cant marry a black or white person.
I'm in agreement. I can even show in the christian bible where that shouldn't. But I can also see the passages that are misrepresented by many christians (whether you agree with their flavor of christianity or not) to do so. What I was saying wasn't that "one could argue against interracial marriage," but rather there are those that do.

Quote:
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1 Yeah, think about how much we argue/debate online, and we dont even know each other. You think 2 people married together could live "peacefully" unless they both believe the same thing? Im not saying it couldnt happen, because it could, but it could also fail.
Where do you draw the line on beliefs? One thing I'm sure about in this world, is that there are no two people who believe in the same things. They might agree more than disagree, particularly with regard to religious sect/denomination/faith, but there will be disagreements within these agreements as well. If you say, "true Christians all agree....." then you are being naive or hopeful. Or both. I've seen it within this very thread.

Quote:
Originally posted by ZDawg
I love it that every debate in this forum turns to an anti-Christian argument...
[personal opinion]Only because every debate ends up with someone quoting a biblical reason for a prohibition or taboo or other action. Ethics in modern society should be devoid of cult influances by christianity, islam, hindi, etc. Instead, the needs of the society should be considered above all else. If these needs create ethics and values that concur with one or more religious doctrines, then fine. If not.... throw the religion out.[/personal opinion]

Quote:
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
The bible says homosexuality is wronge like 3 or 4 times.
That quote is the reason for me trying out the new personal opinion tag. It doesn't seem to be working right....

And herein lies the cause of the fundamentalist movement within the United States. The so-called "moral majority" or "religious right" consists of christians who generally stop their accredited educations at the high school level but continue on with their anecdotal educations through bible studies, political functions, prayer breakfasts, Saturday morning hair-cuts, etc. There's certainly a lot to be said positively in regard to this kind of social education, but there is a lot to critique about it too.

The result is a small percentage of the anecdotally educated population moving toward a fundamental christian perspective. Add to that the fact that the majority religion in the United States is Christian and you get a small population within the larger that can bend their ears and influance policy.

In fact, policy makers are greatly influanced by this fundamentalist movement, particularly right-wing conservatives of the Republican Party, but also a limited number in the Democratic Party. There is evidence that President Bush (the current) is recently influanced in this way. He made comments in the past that were counter to the fundamentalist movement and caught a lot of flak over it. He has since done a 180 degree turn and mentions god and evil like a Prophet of the Law. He's even been quoted to say something (paraphrased) like, "I've learned my lesson about criticizing their agenda."

This is dangerous for society as it will impede progress. Impediment of progress can greatly affect the nation's ecconomy. We are fast becoming a nation of limited progress and will be outpaced by Germany and Japan, both of which were greatly behind the United States in technology and ecconomy only 50 years ago. The newest innovations in technology are not largely American in nature. The future will include genetic technology, which is also frowned upon by the "religious right" and has it's own thread.

As a society, we can't even let our baseless predjudices go regarding homosexuality. To me, homosexuality is counterintuitive. I don't practice and cannot understand why someone would. But I don't think that is a basis for restricting their equal access to the law and legal advantages if they want to form relational unions and even create families.

In fact, I see it as an ecconomic advantage to the nation. More family units means higher spending on big-ticket items. More comprehensive insurance policies.

So, yeah, ZDawg, this is a anti-christian argument. I'd rather it weren't, but christianity has proven throughout history that it needs to be forced into submission to society and to yield to progress. I personally see religious texts such as the christian bible as valuable sources of wisdom, history, and ancestory. But I also see them as obstacles to the progress of humanity.


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Old 12-08-2003, 06:37 PM   #105
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Not allowing Interracial marriage was a cultural thing, as was MANY aspects of the bible... My best friend is half white, half black, is he any less of a Christian than I am? no. Is he any less important in God’s eyes? No. Here’s how it is, Christians are divided into hundreds of denominations... I don’t represent any of them. I represent someone who has studied the bible, and made my own opinions.
So frankly, I don’t care what the Christians of the 40's did back east, or what the Christians of the 21st century do... I am my own, and I believe what I believe, and I disagree with ALOT of Christians today.
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Old 12-08-2003, 06:43 PM   #106
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Being the "Venusian" I am, I may be spinning off on a tangent here with my comments but...

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I'm a bit partial to Shiva, the Destroyer myself.
I wonder what he has been destroying...
Quote:
Add a Buddha statue, a stone effigy of the Koran for effect and round it off with a statue of Ba'al in case he has any worshipers left.
Oh sure, I guess fair is fair. I guess the courthouse is going to get a bit crowded.
Quote:
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1 Yeah, think about how much we argue/debate online, and we dont even know each other. You think 2 people married together could live "peacefully" unless they both believe the same thing? Im not saying it couldnt happen, because it could, but it could also fail.
Well but we like to debate things of interest. Some couples do not engage in much discussion at all, which would be very dull. So long as they respect that the other party can differ, and it not be a personal attack, no problem.

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Where do you draw the line on beliefs? One thing I'm sure about in this world, is that there are no two people who believe in the same things.
A curious statement. I disagree. Perhaps you meant that no two people believe in everything the same.


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Old 12-09-2003, 12:01 AM   #107
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A christian is one who believes that god sent jesus christ to earth to do his work.
Yeah, thats a christian.. I should be more specific "born again christian"

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Timothy McVeigh is a prime example of it.
Wasnt he responsable for the Oklahoma City Bombing (might have the name mixed up) and got the death sentense back in 2001? Well.. I think blowing up a building speaks for itself... he disobeyed God. He murdered people, and rebelled against the government (i think he did that right?) If he called himself a christian, then let him, but im just not quit sure how God planned for him to blow up a building... and if he did, im sure God would have "bailed him out" if it was really God's will.



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I've yet to hear even one command or request made by any god. I've read and heard a few people claim various god's have commanded various things....
Well, you dont believe in him (right?) Also, if you think the bible is true, then you will read several commands given by God.

Quote:
That quote is the reason for me trying out the new personal opinion tag. It doesn't seem to be working right....
New feature? Or just something you made up to say "its my opinion"? Either way, nice idea.

Quote:
Well but we like to debate things of interest. Some couples do not engage in much discussion at all, which would be very dull. So long as they respect that the other party can differ, and it not be a personal attack, no problem.
Well, not talking a lot isnt healthy for a marraige anyways (ok ok, im not married, what do i know?)

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We are fast becoming a nation of limited progress and will be outpaced by Germany and Japan, both of which were greatly behind the United States in technology and ecconomy only 50 years ago.
Well, I think they are kind of smarter and more motivated than us anyways. In fact, i view them as the smartest people on the planet... afterall, just look at what they accomplished. It was only about a couple hundred years ago Japan didnt have guns. Plus i view America as "spoiled" and i think a good deal of the people are lazy. Not all, just a lot. Could be wrong...

Quote:
By that, I'm assuming you're referring to the stone idol of christianity in the Alabama courthouse?
Strange.. Idol? Im not sure, but if God viewed it as an idol, then maybe he would wanted it gone? But it wasnt worshiped... it was symbolic. Why did you use the word idol?
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Old 12-09-2003, 12:26 AM   #108
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Yes, that was the one he was referring to. Idol or not, it didn't belong... not in a country where religion is supposed to have no say in the creation and execution of laws.


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Old 12-09-2003, 01:04 AM   #109
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Originally posted by ShockV1.89
Yes, that was the one he was referring to. Idol or not, it didn't belong... not in a country where religion is supposed to have no say in the creation and execution of laws.
Ah ah ah. Hypocrisy. Then by default no law can be passed banning Christian Christmas symbols in New York high schools while leaving symbols of Islam and Judaism intact.


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Old 12-09-2003, 01:09 AM   #110
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*shrugs* all perspective shock.

I got this in an email so i dont know how true it is:

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part of some email I got

James Madison, the fourth president, known as "The Father of Our Constitution" made the following statement "We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."

Patrick Henry, that patriot and Founding Father of our country said, "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religions but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ".

Thomas Jefferyson worried that the Courts would overstep their authority and instead of interpreting the law would begin making law....an oligarchy...the rule of few over many.

The very first Supreme Court Justice, John Jay, said, "Americans should select and prefer Christians as their rulers."

How, then, have we gotten to the point that everything we have done for 220 years in this country is now suddenly wrong and unconstitutional?


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Yes, that was the one he was referring to.
I knew what he was refering to, i wanted to know why he used the word.. if there was something historical behind that statue that would make it an "idol"
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Old 12-09-2003, 01:11 AM   #111
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Don't call me a hypocrit for that. I don't think that any religious simbols should be displayed in such a manner that is representative of the school. Christian, Islam, Jewish, or any other kind. (Unless it's the artwork of another student, in which case it is not considered part of the administration or faculty itself).

If the law you refer to makes such discriminations as the one you mentioned, then it is wrong. It should apply to all religious symbols, Christian or not.


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Old 12-09-2003, 01:19 AM   #112
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James Madison, the fourth president, known as "The Father of Our Constitution" made the following statement "We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."
Yes, and the author of the Declaration of Independence and major contributor to the Consitution, Thomas Jefferson, was a Deist, not a Christian. The "natures god" he mentiones in "Declaration" was supposed to apply to the Gods of all religions. It was as broad as possible, so more people would take it seriously.

Quote:
Patrick Henry, that patriot and Founding Father of our country said, "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religions but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ".
Many of the founding fathers were Deists, not Christians.

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Thomas Jefferyson worried that the Courts would overstep their authority and instead of interpreting the law would begin making law....an oligarchy...the rule of few over many.
How does this apply to the debate at hand?

Quote:
The very first Supreme Court Justice, John Jay, said, "Americans should select and prefer Christians as their rulers."
Then he was wrong. Americans should select and prefer the best candidates for the job as their rulers. Religion should not be a factor. Ones status as a Christian cannot be any indicator of his qualifications, as history has shown Christians to be just as capable of gross error and wrongdoing as any non-christian.

You can't simply quote someone who happened to be old and speak long ago and end it there. George Washington and John Jay have just as much the capability to be wrong as you and I.


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Old 12-09-2003, 01:30 AM   #113
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i didnt call you a hypocrite...


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Thomas Jefferson, was a Deist, not a Christian.
Well, i figured he wasnt.. he rewrote the bible, taking out and adding what he wanted. Its not used by anyone, i think its in a museam.


Quote:
Then he was wrong. Americans should select and prefer the best candidates for the job as their rulers. Religion should not be a factor. Ones status as a Christian cannot be any indicator of his qualifications, as history has shown Christians to be just as capable of gross error and wrongdoing as any non-christian.

You can't simply quote someone who happened to be old and speak long ago and end it there. George Washington and John Jay have just as much the capability to be wrong as you and I.
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Old 12-09-2003, 01:31 AM   #114
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Quote:
Originally posted by ShockV1.89
Don't call me a hypocrit for that. I don't think that any religious simbols should be displayed in such a manner that is representative of the school. Christian, Islam, Jewish, or any other kind. (Unless it's the artwork of another student, in which case it is not considered part of the administration or faculty itself).

If the law you refer to makes such discriminations as the one you mentioned, then it is wrong. It should apply to all religious symbols, Christian or not.
It is the last in the last paragraph, yes. Sorry, went a bit overboard, since I feel rather strongly about that law. A teacher can't even give out fuggin candy canes!

ACLU: "OH SWEET BIN LADEN SAVE US! Candy canes favor Christianity! BAN THEM BY TIMING COMPLAINTS SO SECULARIST JUDGES GET IT! BAN THEM NOW!"

Anyhow, your last post before this implicated that you were directing it solely at Christianity. Thus my response. I also can argue in a twist that secularism and atheism are religions...


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Old 12-09-2003, 01:46 AM   #115
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Yes, and you could also argue in a twist that jesus was gay.

The last post of mine you referred to did, in fact, refer to Christian influence on the creation of laws. But I wouldn't feel any differently if someone tried to pass a law based on, say, the Quran.

LS1, I was referring to to Lathain in my "hypocrit" statement. Not you.


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Old 12-09-2003, 01:50 AM   #116
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...You do know that Canada is imposing Sharia Law in some cases? Hehe...


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Old 12-09-2003, 01:57 AM   #117
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Really? How odd.... I would have thought that Canada would be a bit more forward thinking than that.


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Old 12-09-2003, 02:20 AM   #118
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Yes, that was the one he was referring to. Idol or not, it didn't belong... not in a country where religion is supposed to have no say in the creation and execution of laws.
It is a curious thing, then, that our money reads, In God We Trust.


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Old 12-09-2003, 02:27 AM   #119
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Quote:
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
Strange.. Idol? Im not sure, but if God viewed it as an idol, then maybe he would wanted it gone? But it wasnt worshiped... it was symbolic. Why did you use the word idol?
Have you not seen the news clips where people were infront of it praying and bowing?

Quote:
Originally posted by Lathain Valtiel
Ah ah ah. Hypocrisy. Then by default no law can be passed banning Christian Christmas symbols in New York high schools while leaving symbols of Islam and Judaism intact.
If they have any religious symbols it is against the law.

Quote:
Originally posted by Lathain Valtiel
A teacher can't even give out fuggin candy canes!

ACLU: "OH SWEET BIN LADEN SAVE US! Candy canes favor Christianity! BAN THEM BY TIMING COMPLAINTS SO SECULARIST JUDGES GET IT! BAN THEM NOW!"
uhmm... how is a candy cane related to christianity? It was originally made just as a normal candy but eventually people used them to put on the Tree to count down the days until christmas.

These tired traditions are what make me despise the holiday hub-bub. -_-
People then end up associating freeish things with certain religions, I remember in the 80's when they made the Christmas marshmallows, and for a while (up until about 93') alot of people associated marshmallows with Christmas because it was frequently used in hot cocoa but then they kind of gave up that thought.

Oh, and Christmas is more commercial than religious now anyways.


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Old 12-09-2003, 02:30 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally posted by NileQueen
ShockV1.89

It is a curious thing, then, that our money reads, In God We Trust.
This we can trace back to the 50's when non-christian meant communist, atheistic (which wasn't very happily looked upon), and anti-american. Hypocracy is a mainstream flow in American government, and pretty much any other government for that matter.


“This body is not me. I am not caught in this body.
I am life without limit.”
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