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Old 11-30-2003, 06:00 AM   #1
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2 land or not 2 land that is the question....

Transports just dropped there cargo in SWGB should it still work that way or should they land and undeploy?

I think landing and undeploying is the more better option giving ground forces a chance to knock it down before it has totally deployed its load.

Also if units are given the oportunity to fire at aircraft and not making much damage would that damage increase while they get closer to the ground since accuracy would be alot better.....


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Old 11-30-2003, 06:45 AM   #2
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I'd like to see things work this way, though I know Sith is violently opposed to it, and I can understand his point. Still I think vulnerability when landing transports is an important part of warfare, which is why in Star Wars armies always land out of range then advance. The exception is of course the Gunship, though I think since it is heavily armed it might be okay to use as a mid-battle lander.


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Old 11-30-2003, 12:22 PM   #3
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Yep, he is violently opposed to it. I'd like to see it happen, but only graphically, and have it not take very long so it doesnt mess with the gameplay.


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Old 11-30-2003, 03:03 PM   #4
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Well it's not supposed to take a long time anyway. If you're unloading troopers it should just take you a sec.
I think there should be a different unload time(if the transport lands) for different units. Unloading an AT-AT and a few troopers is a different situation. The exception would be the Republic Dropship that can easily unload an AT-TE.


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Old 12-01-2003, 03:32 AM   #5
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Well, i agree with Vostok here. In warfare, transports are vulnerable when offloading their contents onto a battlefield, and this needs to be shown. It also makes the game more interesting by making players think more about where they are putting their transports, because you dont want to lose a transport just as it starts offloading, so players will target transports more (to kill the inside units) and also land further away, like in Ep2.

With the transports of different civ's, the only different one i see in the Republic. (In my idea) the Republic's transports carry a lot less than other civ's, but their Dropship drops its cargo and leaves more quickly, and of course the gunship can hold its own on the battlefield.


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Old 12-01-2003, 05:05 AM   #6
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Right. I never thought I'd live to see the day I agree with Windu, but here it is.


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Old 12-01-2003, 08:15 AM   #7
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I love those drop ships in Episode 2 that drop off the walkers into battle. They had ships like that in Dune 2000

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Old 12-01-2003, 09:07 AM   #8
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Well it wouldn't be vulnerable if your had fighters backing it up........


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Old 12-03-2003, 12:52 AM   #9
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Too bad Windu that this is a game, not real life, cause I'd agree that you were right if this were real life. Sadly, however, SW doesnt exist, not any more than Santa Claus or the bogeyman, and games are not real life. And you know the saying about what reigns over realism, so I wont repeat it (its in my sig).


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Old 12-03-2003, 04:09 AM   #10
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First of all, Santa does exist, so be nice...

Anyway, so sithy, you are saying that in SW transports are immune to any damage? That sounds GREAT for gameplay and realism...


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Old 12-03-2003, 09:55 AM   #11
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Well I say landing is the best thing if your dumb enough to land inside a army that your bad luck of course the transports would have some armor and take a fair few trooper and mechs shots And shields would add to that.


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Old 12-04-2003, 12:57 AM   #12
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Exactly Frozted. Actually I take back what I said before, I don't understand Sith's point of view.

Which makes better gameplay, Sith:
Use a transport to fly into a base and drop off all whole bunch of troops.

Use a transport to land your force in a strategic position, then use actual skills to progress from that position into the enemy base. Once a stronger position has been established, reinforcements can be transported in without the danger of enemy attacks.

Quite obviously this is good for Gameplay and Realism.


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Old 12-04-2003, 02:22 AM   #13
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The first scenerio by far.

What do you do then on small asteroids or islands, or when you need to send in reinforcements into a busy fight? Or saving dieing ones? Or picking up a cornered Jedi? Or doing just about anything that requires that enemy troops and transports be in range of each other? I oppose it because I feel that it is superfluous realism. Do we need to have transports be vurnable to land units while doing their little stunt? Has there been a problem with transports being able to land unassailed by land troops? No.


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Old 12-04-2003, 02:27 AM   #14
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Well nothing is stopping you from sending armies into a busy fight just land the transports further back and walk into battle not that hard....

And if your jedi was cornered any good player would kill it on the spot before you got a transport to pick it up.


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Old 12-04-2003, 02:28 AM   #15
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Hmm....unless you have mucho bounties, I doubt you are gonna kill a jedi "on the spot".


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Old 12-04-2003, 03:18 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sithmaster_821
What do you do then on small asteroids or islands, or when you need to send in reinforcements into a busy fight? Or saving dieing ones? Or picking up a cornered Jedi? Or doing just about anything that requires that enemy troops and transports be in range of each other?
Well, you may have to use *gasp* a strategy such as one they would use in a similar situation in the real world. But there is an issue that hasn't been addressed that I feel may set Sith's mind at ease.

The question is: should transports land to offload troops and if so should they become vulnerable to ground fire whilst doing so? Well something we haven't thought about is when a landed transport is destroyed what becomes of its cargo? Most RTS games in the past (including SWGB, I believe) has the troops disembark as soon as the transport is destroyed, or even when it is severely damaged. I think a similar option is viable for these transports: when an Air transport is killed on the ground, the passengers will immediately disembark, and maybe take a little damage from the blast. They will not be killed instantly as though they were airborne.

This way things don't really change from the way they were before. You can still use them to pummel drop, for example, but the transport most likely won't survive whereas the pummels would. So it encourages you to use tranports realistically (setting passengers down away from battle) but still can be used in emergency cases where troops need transportation to or from the heat of battle.


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Old 12-04-2003, 04:00 AM   #17
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I agree with Vostok here. I would like to see Transports destroyed while flying to have their contents blown up too, but if landed then have the contents exit still, a little worse for wear.


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Old 12-05-2003, 12:31 AM   #18
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I think that I could concede to Vostok's idea in the face of all this opposition, but I still think that a quick graphical demonstration is the way to go.

Vostok, changing strategies/tactics doesnt necessarily make them better. For example, I could say that all ranged units have 1 minimum range, give a perfectly valid realism explination, and claim that it is both gameplay and realism, because it has you change tactics and strategy. In fact, that idea addresses something that any of the realism freaks ever do: a current balance quirk. Ranged units are much better than melee ones ATM. But it still is not a good idea, and still represents meddling with gameplay in the name of realsim.


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Old 12-07-2003, 01:08 AM   #19
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What exactly do you have against realism, Sith? What we're proposing improves realism, and while gameplay may be different I certainly don't think it's any worse. How can that be a bad thing?


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Old 12-07-2003, 01:29 AM   #20
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Sith does have a good point you can't just make everthing in the game realistic which is what most of you want (which can never happen for balance issues). For me gameplay rules over realism you have to draw the line between the two you can't have full realism or full gameplay for a star wars rts to work.


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Old 12-07-2003, 07:12 AM   #21
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I realise that, but I don't see why you can't have more realism when gameplay, though different, isn't worse.


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Old 12-07-2003, 07:51 AM   #22
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SWGB 1 had heaps of realism just not all the units were in the movies. And the gameplay was excellent


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Old 12-08-2003, 11:54 AM   #23
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Cause, Vostok, typically it is worse, because when you delve furhter into realism, you are adding the limitations and endless variations that are applicable to real life. When you add these limitations or other added layers of needless crap like "well technically troopers could shoot at airplanes" and "technically a trooper could destroy a AT AT with a lucky shot" and then the game turns out crap, cause you have too many rules and limitations and quirks and special cases, and everything is complicated cause realism is complicated.


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Old 12-08-2003, 09:17 PM   #24
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I would not say "typically". It can be worse, but doesn't have to be. In my experience realism is just as much reverred by critics and gamers alike as gameplay is.

But as I said before I don't want to turn this into a realism debate.


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Old 12-08-2003, 11:28 PM   #25
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But do the gamers/critics prefer a game with realism over a one with good gameplay. No. They like realism (mostly with FPS's, though), but not if it impedes with gameplay. In fact, in RTS's, most reviewers look negativley on games that include more realism than the typical RTS, and much of the gaming community has little regard for realism. Thats why games like War Craft are popular while Empire Earth sits in the discout bin.


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Old 12-09-2003, 12:42 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sithmaster_821
They like realism (mostly with FPS's, though), but not if it impedes with gameplay.
I agree with this statement entirely, but I believe some realism doesn't necessarily have to make bad gameplay, whereas you believe realism always makes bad gameplay.

Getting back on topic, do you accept the proposed model of reality-based transport usage? That is:
Air transports need to land whilst unloading cargo, and while they are landed they are vulnerable to ground attacks that would otherwise be able to shoot Aircraft.
If the transport is destroyed while in the air, everything on board the transport dies. If the transport is destroyed while on the ground, everything on board the transport bails out just in time, but takes a small amount of damage.

Here's another transport-based reality question: should units disembark all at the same time (like SWGB and AoM) or should they file out one at a time like in the real world (like C&C:Generals)?


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Old 12-09-2003, 04:49 AM   #27
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Well if any unit is inside while it is destroyed they die non of this bailing out in time but crap once it blows up they all die.


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Old 12-09-2003, 05:42 AM   #28
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But therein lies one of Sith's biggest objections, and I agree with him in part. If your cargo can still die while the transport is on the ground and vulnerable to enemy fire, transports will be less useful.


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Old 12-10-2003, 01:36 AM   #29
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Well you don't land your aircraft if your not planning on deploying your cargo.


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Old 12-10-2003, 08:25 PM   #30
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All at a time. One at a time is very useless realism.


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Old 12-10-2003, 09:48 PM   #31
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It isn't useless, again it encourages strategy because you can't just dump units in the middle of a battlezone, you actually have to think about where you land.

However I think for Star Wars one-at-a-time filing out is rarely the case. Perhaps disembarking would be different for each transport? Complicated but it means more uniquness and that different transports warrant different strategies. Let's look at a few of the major transports:

Republic Gunship: Units would instantly deploy from the Gunship, but that's an advantage you get from the open bay design, which makes it weaker and less survivable.

Rebel Medium Transport: This has a big bay door, so you could probably deploy five or more at a time. It is a bit slower but the added armour balances it out.

MTT: Ideally it would be awesome to at least have some eye candy of a droid rack extending out. I think maybe when you give the deploy order, there will be a delay (which is the droid rack extending) then all the battle droids will instantly deploy. Perhaps for other units being transported (Sith, Droidekas, Bounty Hunters) they could file out two at a time. Although deployment is slow from the MTT it makes up for it by being extremely tough with great armour.

AT-AT: I believe Stormtroopers deploy from AT-ATs via ropes. Perhaps deploying four at a time would be good.

I think having different deployent methods is more fun that every transport being the same. I would also help balance the heavier armoured transports with the lighter ones. If it's more fun, that to me is better gameplay.


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Old 12-11-2003, 12:41 AM   #32
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It has little strategic impact on gameplay, and would just be annoying. Also, if we go with your first idea too, then transports will be very vurnable ships.


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Old 12-11-2003, 12:43 AM   #33
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Well that's kind of true but transports are supposed to be vulnerable ships anyway.


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Old 12-11-2003, 01:19 AM   #34
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Sith, I suggest you expand your tunnel vision a bit. Play Command and Conquer Generals and see some other ways Transports can be used in a realistic and fun way.


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Old 12-11-2003, 02:05 AM   #35
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Well Vostok, although that would be nice, it seems rather complex. Instead i would go for a different system.
In my template, there are 6 categories of ground units which are-
1. Trooper
2. Other Infantry
3. Light Mechs (Droideka)
4. Medium Mechs (AAT)
5. Heavy Mechs (AT-AT)
6. Super Heavy Mechs (SPHA-T)

All i think should happen is that each class of unit, rather than the type of transport, deploys at a different speed. By this, i mean that Light Mechs deploy faster than Heavy Mechs, and Troopers deploy faster than Light Mechs.

This would be less complex and easier to implement as it would be a universal system.


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Old 12-11-2003, 11:06 AM   #36
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Jeez soon noone will be using transports since you guys are stripping the gameplay outta it. Again you guys are putting realism before gameplay and to be honest its pissing me off.


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Old 12-11-2003, 02:16 PM   #37
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I prefer the CnC: Generals way of transports. The soldiers take up one slot, the tanks took up 2 or 3. Pretty Simple. And the Transports were vulnerable all the time. Wether they were landing for unloading or loading, repairing, or just hovering there, bu I believe only missile troopers and AA weapons could shoot at them.
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Old 12-11-2003, 07:14 PM   #38
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Somehow I have to partially agree with Frozted here.
The concept of different landing time for different unit is too complicated.
There's a difference between landing transports and this.


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Old 12-11-2003, 09:45 PM   #39
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Well different disembarking times wasn't too complicated for C&C:Generals, and I doubt anyone would call that a complicated game. I'll admit my idea probably is too complicated, but I would like to see some transports with single-file disembarking while other have all at once disembarking. Of course if the transport is destroyed while on the ground everyone bails out instantly.

Let me illustrate the dimension it can bring to the game by using C&C:Generals. The GLA Technical can transport 5 infantry units, and when they disembark they all jump out at the same time. This is because the Technical is a very fast but very lightly armoured vehicle. On the other hand the Chinese APC carries eight infantry who disembark one at a time. However the APC is relatively slow, but has thick armour. This emphasises the fact that there are two types of transport: those for mobility, which are fast and can deploy passengers quickly, and those for protection, which are tough but slower to move and deploy.

I retract my previous complicated example (though I still want droid rack eye candy) and suggest instead that some transports deploy instantly while others do it one at a time.


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Old 12-11-2003, 09:58 PM   #40
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Phreak-I agree that different units should cost different transpot slots, and that transports should always be vurnable to AA.

Vostok-It's not me with tunnel vision, its you. Just because one game does something realistically, and everything turned out (somewhat) ok, in comparison to other games in that series, doesn't mean it will be that way with other games. Hell, not even Blizzard makes units come out one at a time. It will make transports, especially when coupled with the "vurnable when landing" crap, essentially useless when they aren't absolutely required (like in non-space maps), and horribly underpowered when they are absolutely needed, swinging the balance of the game tremendously in favor of the defender, so that space games become stagnant staring contests, like in pre-AC SWGB. You can't just keep spitting up realism ideas, especially when their stolen from other games, just because it would be "cool" or "tactical" to have them, without the faintest concern for balance, specifically MP balance. It is the MP balance that gives a game a good or bad rep, it is the MP balance and fun factor that decides whether a game is a one hit wonder, or a continuing success. EE was an ok game SP, but, thanks to balance problems and poor MP support, it was transformed into a pitiful one.


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