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Old 12-11-2003, 11:32 PM   #41
lukeiamyourdad
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Blizzard doesn't do it 'cause the only game that used air transport was StarCraft and that was some time ago(unless WC3 used some too I can't remember but I don't think so...)

This actually all depends of the strength of the transport. If the transport is heavily armored enough then it shouldn't pose much of a problem. If they're weak, then it's a problem.

Besides, You have to clean up an area before you unload your troops or send in cannon fodder units first to avoid putting your troop carrying transport in harm's way. So whether or not we have landing transports, you'll still have to use some kind of strategy.


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Old 12-11-2003, 11:37 PM   #42
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Sith has got you there vostok Sith has been open minded into the realism ideas but you go to overboard about it. He is right about it but you do shut off if it isn't all based about realism we listen to your ideas start listening to ours.


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Old 12-12-2003, 02:15 AM   #43
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Frozted: I strongly resent that. Look through the comment boxes of my SWGB2 design and you'll see just how much realism I've dropped for Gameplay. Also count the heaps of different suggestions from the forum I've incorporated into my design after posting it for revision. I hardly think I'm immovable on any issues. Have a look at Windu and how he hasn't changed a single word of his design despite continual criticism from forumites, and then tell me I don't listen to people.

Sith: Like Luke's Dad said, it all depends on the relative strength and speed of the transport in question. Surely you're not suggesting every transport be the same like in SWGB1? I know games have to be balanced properly to be decent in MP games, but I don't see how adding these changes, accompanied by balancing other units, will totally throw off the whole game balance. I have faith and believe realism additions can be balanced in, you seem to think that because it would be unbalanced if added to SWGB1 then it will be unbalanced in SWGB2. They are different games that will (hopefully) operate differently, and SWGB2 will be balanced properly independent of SWGB1.

Or will they just re-release an existing game with unbalanced additions?


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Old 12-12-2003, 04:51 AM   #44
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Vostok - I strongly resent that. How dare you accuse me of ignoring the concerns of other forum members when you have obviously not read my template, and then go and do the same thing with ideas like Troopers shooting aircraft? Through discussions with other members, i have dropped a number of ideas what were objected to, such as the Republic having the only Jedi, the APT being good against Infantry and others.

Sith, Vostok - you both have tunnel vision. Vostok seems to want the most complicated way to do things humanly possible so it goes with realism, while Sith cant accept that some realism ideas are also good for gameplay.

Frozted - gotta agree with Vostok on that point, he has listed (although not as well as he should have) to you and other forum members regarding his ideas. No need to throw a tantrum about it.


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Old 12-12-2003, 05:18 AM   #45
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Sorry Windu, I was unnecessarily harsh on you. I was just pissed off at Frozted.

Maybe I do have a bit of tunnel vision, but I just can't see why people don't believe games designers are good enough to make a game that is both realistic and has good gameply. Am I too optimistic to think it can be done?


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Old 12-12-2003, 08:22 AM   #46
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Yea vostok I didn't get pissed when you said I think everyone plays the game **** cause they don't get on the zone. If your not prepared to get things thrown back at you when you dish when thats your problem.


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Old 12-12-2003, 11:16 AM   #47
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Perhaps with clearer grammar, I would be able to understand what the hell you just said.


As for the transports, I'm pretty much siding with Vostok. His ideas arn't that complicated. Maybe it's CnC thing. And if LEC doesn't make SWG2, I can always wait til the Imperial Assault Mod comes out.
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Old 12-14-2003, 03:33 AM   #48
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Luke-warcraft had transports to hire

Frosted-you don't have to flame to get you point across.

Vostok-Lemme get this straight. You want to add the "vurnable when landing" and "one at a time" stuff to only certain transports? I'm all for uniqueness (I started the unique unit and building set movement), but not at the sake of balance. People will just go for the ones with out the crappy realism gimmicks. Thats like saying we'll make the empire have the worst units in the game, because that will make them very unique. It doesnt matter if they are never played, as long they get inhibiting realism factors, we'll be jumping for joy. If its gonna be done to one, its gotta be done to all. The only way I could see the "vurnability" one working is if it has massive stats boost to counteract the fact that it cant drop off or pick up troops near enemy units. The one by one thing is a lost cause.

Windu-I'm not any where as near as secular as you guys are. I represent the multiplayer community of the game, essentially the mainstream people that game makers court with patches and multiplayer balance. I am one of the only people here who has to make sure your ideas stay in-check with what would be acceptable in a game with MP support. I dont want to see a game made chalk full of your realism ideas only for them to be patched out in a month. I am one of the only people here who still thinks that changes should be made based on balance problems, not realism disputes. Thats the essence of the gameplay>realism idea that you guys throw around without understanding it. Its not "Let's think of a realisyic idea and mold it so it fits" but "Let's find a problem with the current build, and make a solution that fixes the problem, doesnt cause other problems, and stays as realistic as possible without jepordizing the first 2 points".

Is there currently a screw with transports? No. Is it a problem that they can pick up and drop off in hostile territory? Not in the leats bit, its a lot more helpful and less burdensome that way. Do troops unload so mindbogglingly fast that it frys slower comps, or makes it harder to comprehend whats gonig on? Not that I know of. Are people abusing the "prowess" of the transport's transporting abilities? Are there "nerf the transport threads flooding the forums? No and no. So are short-sighted changes to transports in the name of realism necessary? Hell no.

Thats how a game designer's mind works, and thats how some one who wants their game to succeed should think. That, my friends, is gameplay>realism.


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Old 12-14-2003, 05:43 AM   #49
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That was so moving, i had tears running down my cheeks near the end...

Getting back to reality, Sith, you cannot claim to represent the online community any more than i can claim to speak for every Australian.

What we're trying to do here is not destroy balance or gameplay, but to alter that gameplay to make the game more realistic. So long as gameplay isnt negatively affected, im really not seeing a problem here.


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Old 12-14-2003, 06:22 AM   #50
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Sith: It would appear you're looking at it from the angle of "Let's take the current game and only change the stuff that's not that great". I'm looking at it from the angle of "let's make a completely different game".

As for vulnerability, I'm not saying only a few transports are vulnerable when landed, they all abide by that rule. The difference between transports, making each unique, is their unloading time.

We all want unique unit sets. But if each transport takes exactly the same time to unload when they all differ in speed, armour, hit points, shields, line of sight and capacity, how can gameplay balance be achieved? You seem to at least be indifferent towards the vulnerable-while-on-the-ground idea, so let me go from there. A Republic Gunship is a relatively fast transport, with a small capacity, with low armour and hit points and no shields. A Rebel Medium Transport on the other hand is slower, but has greater capacity, strong armour, average hit points and is shielded. If they both take equal time to drop their cargo, surly the Gunship is disadvantaged? As a way to balance these, it just makes sense to me to have the Gunship's passengers all jump out at once (as they can in the movies), while the Medium transport takes longer to unload, perhaps not one at a time but certainly not all in one go. Is my reasoning faulty?


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Old 12-14-2003, 08:12 AM   #51
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Well, as i've said, i prefer my own model for unloading. But anyway, the problems with your example Vostok, are that-

- the Medium Transport is too big to be a tactical transport
- Medium transport would get hit far more frequently than a Gunship
- the Gunship is more agile
- the Gunship has strong armour, infantry weapons cannot penetrate


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Old 12-14-2003, 06:45 PM   #52
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I agree that gameplay must come first but we must take time to innovate too. If we stuck to the same old same old all the time, we stop going forward and we stay behind. SWGB had a major problem where a lot of people claimed it didn't do anything new, it was the same old RTS as everyone knew and the only real reason people would buy it was for the Star wars name.

If we go down the same road, people will also say this. It's same thing as other games, it didn't do anything new.

However, landing to unload is one thing but different unload times is another.

I think they should just land and unload, that's it that's all. No single line unload or different unload times. That's a bit too much.


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Old 12-14-2003, 09:55 PM   #53
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I love how you guys are saying that we have to innovate, and not do as other games have done, and then, in the same thought, go around stealing things blatantly from other games.
Quote:
A Republic Gunship is a relatively fast transport, with a small capacity, with low armour and hit points and no shields. A Rebel Medium Transport on the other hand is slower, but has greater capacity, strong armour, average hit points and is shielded. If they both take equal time to drop their cargo, surly the Gunship is disadvantaged?
Thats where the magic of balance comes in. You see, games aren't equalized by adding realism gimmicks and limits, if that were so, then the game would suck. The gunship will probably be cheaper, or faster to make, or take less pop, or *gasp* have an attack (but now we're going down a road we've been through many times). No stupid "gunship pops everyone out at once" complications and limitations needed.

Quote:
That was so moving, i had tears running down my cheeks near the end...
I'm glad you can get so emotional over posts on a gaming forum

Quote:
Sith, you cannot claim to represent the online community any more than i can claim to speak for every Australian.
There are only like 300 people in the online community (less if you count scenerio players as half a person), while like 100 million people in Australia. Also, there is a general consensus in the gaming community over balancing mechanics and prevalence, and also on what things are/anre't balanced (to a certain extent), so I think that I can represent the multiplayer community much better than you can Australia.


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Old 12-14-2003, 10:07 PM   #54
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And is SWGB really a unique RTS or a very well made mod of AoK?

Is a landing transport a rip-off of any kind?

Oh god that trooper uses a gun, let's try to innovate and give him a wooden stick because all the other games are using guns for troopers...

There's a difference in stealing and simply getting an idea from another game. If so then all games should be banned and considered rip-offs because they steal stuff from another. Oh god, this FPS also uses guns, oh god this car game also uses car...

If one game has landing transport can it really be considered stealing if another game has them too?


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Old 12-14-2003, 10:30 PM   #55
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Firstly, let me just clear up that Australia only just hit the 20 million mark the other day. But it's an acceptable mistake considering you were educated in the USA, Sith .

Now:
Quote:
The Medium Transport is too big to be a tactical transport
Exactly! That is why it will have a slow unload time to discourage it's use as a tactical transport.
Quote:
the Gunship has strong armour, infantry weapons cannot penetrate
Strong armour? Just because infantry weapons can't penetrate it doesn't make it strong. It only took a couple of shots from a Geonosian Fighter to kill one. And comparing it to the Medium Transport, as I was doing, it does not have strong armour at all.

Windu's other points agree with what I said so I'm not sure why he noted them as counting against me.

But, since there is overwhelming opposition I am willing to concede my point. I think different unload times is a great way to add more uniqueness while at the same time becoming even more faithful to the movies this game is meant to emulate, while at the same time not screwing up balance. You said it yourself, Sith, that balance is found through cost and build time. I've always believed the same and as such believed anything can be balanced into the game this way. But if everyone thinks otherwise I'll give up.


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Old 12-15-2003, 02:25 AM   #56
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I am glad we all agree *group hug*

About the Australia thing, I was certain that it was lower than that, but I didnt want to insult the many Aussies on these boards.

Oh, and build time means the time taken to construct a unit, not the time it takes to do stuff


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Old 12-15-2003, 02:42 AM   #57
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Yeah I know that's what build time means. I think most things that aren't rediculously over or under powered can be adequately balanced through build time and cost, and surely different unloading times falls into this category.

Note I'm not still pushing for acceptance of my idea, I can leave it behind, but instead I pose a new question: can differences between units (such as unload time) be balanced through build time and cost?


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Old 12-15-2003, 04:31 AM   #58
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Well, i would think that instead of being balanced against build time and cost, unloading time would be balanced against armour and firepower, which in turn would be balanced against cost and build time.


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Old 12-16-2003, 12:40 AM   #59
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Depends on the differences. It is better that the differences are a plus not a minus (i.e. some unit is really expensive/weak, but can do something really cool vs something cheap and strong but has some frustrating limitations). If we are talknig about positive differences, then I could see it happening, or even certain negative differences. The key is whether people will pay whatever the price/weakness for the uniqueness, or, conversely, are the limitations low enough that people wouldnt mind the cheaper unit. For example, in AoM, Medusas are some of the most expensive units in the game, have low stats, but people build them because they can insta kill units. An example of a negative difference that works would be the minimum range of assualt mechs.


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