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View Poll Results: Would a Jedi Knight game in the NJO be...
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Thread: Jedi Knight Game in the New Jedi Order, anyone?
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Old 10-13-2003, 04:29 PM   #1
Master_Keralys
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Jedi Knight Game in the New Jedi Order, anyone?

I personally think setting a Jedi in the New Jedi Order would rock. It would be a lot more challenging: the only really powerful Force Powers would be speed and protection: the rest don't work against Vong. Totally new story. New Jedi. New worlds, and definitely on a new game engine. Comments?


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Old 10-13-2003, 08:49 PM   #2
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Force immunity would be silly.

Either they'd make all your powers useless or they'd have to give you new powers that would work (like the old JK1 Force Throw to toss objects at them), meaning their "immunity" would be pointless and they'd be just regular generic enemies.

Personally I don't see why the Vong are so 'cool'... they remind me more of Star Trek villians (like Species 8472 from Voyager) than something that is a part of Star Wars, and certainly not somebody who could take over multiple galaxies and cause trouble for the New Republic/Jedi.

Can't say about the rest of the NJO stuff since I haven't read the books. I just hear that (from what people tell me) about half the books are pretty crappy, so the fans are divided over whether they are really worth it (plus there's a ton of them... it's not the usual three book cycle that you can read fairly quickly to get the full story).


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Old 10-13-2003, 09:02 PM   #3
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Personally , if I were to make a game that takes place 30 years after ANH I'd just improvise something and ignore the Vong situation, for one too little gamers know about them, and like Kurgan said, opinions are very devided on them.

So..... nah.
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Old 10-14-2003, 01:59 AM   #4
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I agree with Kurgan and Pedro. Not a good idea.

I strongly agree that the Vong are really stretching it as SW villains, and have no place in a game about jedi. From what little I know about the whole NJO thing, Vong are force immune and their armor is lightsaber resistant. So basically, take the lightsaber and the force powers out of JA and there's your NJO game. No thanks.
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Old 10-14-2003, 02:17 AM   #5
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I already stated in the other thread that I think it's a bad idea. If you can't use Force powers or lightsabers effectively against your enemies, then it make the whole notion of being a Jedi pretty much redundant. The only reason to use Force Speed is to get away from them as fast as possible. I just can't see much 'fun' in a game based on around the Vong.

And I agree that they seem more like Star Trek than Star Wars. I pretty much stopped reading the EU novels after the NJO series started, because I thought it was starting to get a bit silly. If you're a fan of the series, props to you. Whatever floats your boat. But not everyone is a fan of the series.
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Old 10-14-2003, 02:37 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by StormHammer
I already stated in the other thread that I think it's a bad idea. If you can't use Force powers or lightsabers effectively against your enemies, then it make the whole notion of being a Jedi pretty much redundant. The only reason to use Force Speed is to get away from them as fast as possible. I just can't see much 'fun' in a game based on around the Vong.

And I agree that they seem more like Star Trek than Star Wars. I pretty much stopped reading the EU novels after the NJO series started, because I thought it was starting to get a bit silly. If you're a fan of the series, props to you. Whatever floats your boat. But not everyone is a fan of the series.
You sum it up quite well StormHammer. Star Wars is not science fiction. IMO, biotechnology and all the Vong stuff doesn't really fit into science fantasy. But that is all a matter of opinion.

Ultimately, it would be a silly move for Lucasarts to make such a game because:

Number of Star Wars fans > Number of SW EU fans > Number of NJO fans.

Why would they want to make a game with a more limited audience? If they make the sort of games they are now, they reach both the hardcore and casual fan. Remember, the majority of Star Wars fans have never read/heard of the NJO. Many people who pick up the game because it had Star Wars on the cover would be wondering where all the stormtroopers were and why their force powers didn't do anything.
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Old 10-14-2003, 08:43 AM   #7
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Could be cool!

I actually think it would be pretty cool. Of course i happen to be a fan of the NJO books so that helps...

As far as not having enemies to use any force powers on, the 'Peace Brigade' (mercenaries etc who want to hand all the Jedi over to the Vong) could make up quite a bit of the enemy roster. There are also the alien planets they visit where the locals turn out to be hostile that they can use force powers on.

As far as the Yuuzahn Vong go, they have a slave race of lizard like creatures they kind of use like infantry who you could use force powers on. Also, the lesser Vong can be beaten with a lightsaber rather easily.

I think if they focussed more on the Peace briagde, lizard things and the weaker Vong as enemies it would be pretty cool.

The harder Vong would actually be quite a challenge as it would be more up to your dueling skills. Their fighting staffs (living creatures called Amphistaffs) can be sword like or whip like and spit poison so they would be a really cool opponent. And adding the force power of throwing stuff at them would be awesome.

So i think the game could be pulled off quite easily. As far as casual fans not really knowing what is going on, all of the stories from the Jedi Knight games are new so why couldn't people pick up on the NJO stories from the game?
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Old 10-14-2003, 09:44 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by masterofmayhem
So i think the game could be pulled off quite easily. As far as casual fans not really knowing what is going on, all of the stories from the Jedi Knight games are new so why couldn't people pick up on the NJO stories from the game?
For one thing, the Jedi Knight series games are pretty basic, almost cliche' in a way - and they are all self-contained stories: you don't need to read any EU to know what's going on, although it helps understand some of the specifics of the environment.

Whereas, a game based on the NJO series, would for one: need to be relative to that book series, which not everyone can relate to; and it would limit the storyline of the game - it would force it into continuity within that series of books.

But with the current series, and the self-contained story in each game, they can fit in between already established EU timelines and such.

I also don't like the NJO series, or the Vong as enemies. It feels pretty apocryphal to me, not very Star Wars like.

I mean, people were bitching so much about midichlorians, and I felt those took away from the whole mysticism of the Force, but the Vong are even worse. I mean, they are completely seperate from the Force! Atleast the yslamiri are still relative to the Force, but the Vong aren't affected with a lack of or presence of the Force.

I think that really takes out of the whole Star Wars universe. That's why I don't even consider the NJO to have "happened" within the timelines of the SW universe.


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Old 10-14-2003, 11:08 AM   #9
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Re-opening this villip are we ?

This has come up numerous times now..... As much as I love EU, and the NJO, I just dont see the Vong working in a game like this, particularly with the q3 engine..... maybe in something like the context of Republic commando, where it can be more of an issue of strategy rather than swinging a saber...who knows, its a curly one for developers.....

Also, re- what "idontlikegeorge" said
Quote:
That's why I don't even consider the NJO to have "happened" within the timelines of the SW universe.
If you dont like EU, that's always a personal preference of course.

However, NJO is as canon as you'll get in the EU... The decision to kill off chewie and anakin came form GL himself,(as stated in interviews on the official SW site)

I personally love EU, and the NJO is an amazing achievement of planning and storytelling, considering its a 19+ book story arc....

To each their own I guess...

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Old 10-14-2003, 11:43 AM   #10
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I love the EU up to the point where the NJO begins XD
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Old 10-14-2003, 01:18 PM   #11
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Quote:
Star Wars is not science fiction. IMO, biotechnology and all the Vong stuff doesn't really fit into science fantasy. But that is all a matter of opinion.
I beg to differ, Star Wars may be fantasy, but it's also definately Science Fiction.

Since when is Star Trek the only "sci fi" out there (or, as some assume, the standard by which to measure all of sci fi)? There's at least as much fantasy in Trek as there is in Star Wars. I think some people are assuming that "technobabble = sci fi," it doesn't.

Biotechnology is just one of the goofier and less believable parts of sci fi (think about it... soft squishy living tissue that's superior to titanium steel and high energy lasers? yeah whatever... if the Vong were real, 21st century chemical & nuclear weapons would make mincemeat of them).

Otherwise I agree.

As far as the EU canon, I could care less. Lucas approves all of it, but I highly doubt he actually reads it (except in the most general vague sense, signing on the dotted line). Remember he approved the Glove of Darth Vader and other nonesense, but then, he also invented Jar Jar Binks and the Star Wars Holiday Special, so even ol' George makes mistakes. ; )

With all the stuff that does get the SW logo on it these days, I'd hate to see the stuff that got rejected!


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Old 10-14-2003, 01:40 PM   #12
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90% of Star Wars fans have not ever heard of the Yvuushzan Hwok.

I, like many others, think that the whole deal with Vong's is silly. It's un-star warsy and just plain sucks.


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Old 10-14-2003, 01:43 PM   #13
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I've said it before in other similar threads and I'll say it again;

I DO NOT like the NJO series.

The whole Yuzzhan Vong thing doesn't feel like Star Wars. Since when has Star Wars villians ever practiced self-mutilation in the movies?! It's clearly stated in the movies that the Force is present in EVERYTHING. The absense of the Force in the Vong is a direct contradiction to the movies and undermines the Force's influence. And what's up with killing Chewbacca? He's survived for decades fighting the Empire, (and the Corporate Sector Authority in the Han Solo books) yet he can't withstand some Forceless aliens?

It all boils down to this for me: the NJO books don't "feel" like Star Wars, they feel like generic science fiction. The magic is lost, and the wide wonderful galaxy I've known since I was a little kid after seeing Star Wars for the first time has been defiled by the series. Consequently, I don't believe the NJO series ever took place. Ever.

However, if you want to believe in the NJO series, good for you, I won't stop you.

On a more practical reason why the NJO series shouldn't become a Star Wars game is that many people have never read the NJO series, and the Yuzzhan Vong would be unfamiliar and strange for them, thus alienating many gamers. (much as the series has divided the Star Wars community)
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Old 10-14-2003, 01:49 PM   #14
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as a matter of fact me and someone else are making NJO maps only 4 in total

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Old 10-14-2003, 02:18 PM   #15
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I've already started a NJO Mod for Jedi Academy... you can read about it here:

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthrea...9&goto=newpost
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Old 10-14-2003, 02:47 PM   #16
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Re: Could be cool!

Quote:
Originally posted by masterofmayhem
As far as casual fans not really knowing what is going on, all of the stories from the Jedi Knight games are new so why couldn't people pick up on the NJO stories from the game?
But the difference is that the vast majority of elements in the Jedi Knight stories can be found in the movies. Dark jedi, stormtroopers, crimelords, recognizable alien species, familiar worlds, and familiar (and SW feasible) weapons. The Vong replaces much that is familiar from the movies, and so is a much bigger leap for the casual fan.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
I beg to differ, Star Wars may be fantasy, but it's also definately Science Fiction.
Certainly finding a suitable definition of what is science fiction is likely impossible, IMO Star Wars is much more fantasy than science fiction. Here are some definitions that reflect how I view Science Fiction:

SCIENCE FICTION. Abbr. sf: Fiction in which scientific discoveries and developments form an element of plot or background; especially a work of fiction based on prediction of future scientific possibilities.
-The American Heritage Dictionary

Science fiction is a branch of fantasy identifiable by the fact that it eases the "willing suspension of disbelief" on the part of its readers by utilizing an atmosphere of scientific credibility for its imaginative speculations in physical science, space, time, social science, and philosophy.
-Sam Moskowitz

Science fiction is really sociological studies of the future, things that the writer believes are going to happen by putting two and two
together.
-Ray Bradbury

Science fiction is story-telling, usually imaginative as distinct from realistic fiction, which poses the effects of current or
extrapolated scientific discoveries, or a single discovery, on the behavior of individuals of society.
-John Boyd

Science Fiction: fiction based on rational speculation regarding the human experience of science and its resultant technologies.
-Reginald Bretnor


As far as these definitions go, I think it can be argued that Star Wars does not fit too well. Star Wars is not "a work of fiction based on prediction of future scientific possibilities." The technology in Star Wars is merely the background, and has very little effect on what the story is actually about. SW makes no real attempt to present a universe that may one day be possible (without getting into the "long time ago" stuff)

It does not "ease the 'willing suspension of disbelief' on the part of its readers by utilizing an atmosphere of scientific credibility for its imaginative speculations." Again, the "science" aspects of Star Wars are not used to give the story credibility. In fact Star Wars relies much more on very traditional fantasy elements, such as pricesses (for rescuing at whatnot), knights, magic, pure good and evil, and so on. At least for the story aspect, IMO Star Wars does not really use science as the basis for the story.

It certainly does not "pose the effects of current or extrapolated scientific discoveries, or a single discovery, on the behavior of individuals of society." Star Wars is not looking at all at how science affects the human condition. It's storyline is much more fantasy driven. Star Trek is but one example of a story that sometimes looks at how mankind might end up and how science affect the way we are (or will be). Star Trek has often looked at social issues that are relavent today and how they are affected by science, or how human issues affect the use of science. Star Wars does not really deal with anything like that.

Now, I'm not writing all this to say I'm right and you are wrong. There must be just as many definitions about science fiction that support your view, like the one below:

Science fiction is what you find on the shelves in the library marked science fiction.
-George Hay


Just kidding I'm just trying to show you where I am coming from and why I classify Star Wars as science fantasy and not science fiction.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
Since when is Star Trek the only "sci fi" out there (or, as some assume, the standard by which tomeasure all of sci fi)? There's at least as much fantasy in Trek as there is in Star Wars.
I never said anything about Star Trek in my original post, and I don't really hold it as a "standard." But I feel that Star Trek is much more science fiction than fantasy, because many of its stories are aided by explanations of what science/technology is doing and how it does it, as well as commenting on how it affects humanity. Star Wars does much less (if any) of this.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
I think some people are assuming that "technobabble = sci fi," it doesn't.
I agree. In my view how and for what purpose the technobabble is used to tell the story has more of an effect on whether a story is science fiction or not. You may or may not agree with this view.

But in a similar vein, "spaceships and lasers != science fiction". Really, the stories in Star Wars could be translated to midieval/ancient settings without much effort.

As far as the Vong go, I will conceed that biotechnology is not the sole property of science fiction. But it is much more common in what I view as science fiction, and much less so in fantasy. Because of this, the Vong come across to me as sort of a poor hack plot device to really alter the Star Wars mythos in an attempt to make it interesting. I guess my biggest beef with the Vong is that I do not consider such a radical departure from traditional Star Wars stories necessary. The galaxy is a huge place, and there is a lot of room for stories that are just as fun and interesting as the originals. I don't consider big galaxy-threatening stories necessary every time. Smaller scale events and characters can be just as interesting, and can provide writers with just as much freedom.

Whew. Well that's my take
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Old 10-14-2003, 03:03 PM   #17
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If they are to make a game series based on NJO, then i think that they'll slap a New Jedi Order title instead of Jedi Knight, because that way us Jedi Knight & True Star Wars fans, can enjoy our True Jedi Knight game, and those who like the crappy, imatation, NJO series can enjoy that.
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Old 10-14-2003, 05:21 PM   #18
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Old 10-14-2003, 08:11 PM   #19
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complaining, irritating people....

I can understand why a lot of people dislike the NJO. I've had my own beefs with it; killing Anakin was about the dumbest thing anyone could have done. It's also had such tragedies as Dark Journey, the worst SW book ever written. No offense to Cunningham, but that one was just plain lousy.

On the other hand, it's had its bright moments (Traitor, for example, which gave us Matt Stover, the best SW author ever). And that the characters aren't invincible, etc.

I think a game in the setting would be perfect. You wouldn't have to overload the gamer with stuff he's never heard of before all at once. Think of how JA slowly introduced the cult. And how those familiar with the EU would pick up on certain references and whatnot, but they weren't critical. A similar set of devices could be used for an NJO game.

I'd actually like to see a combo of the playing styles of JA and JK2. You choose a character - less well known, but still familiar in the genre - and the story changes on that. Not on how your outfit looks. Don't get me wrong, I love the customizable part of JA, but it isn't nearly as important as your character's personality.

As far as Force powers go, it would require a lot more creativity with "boss" enemies than in Academy or Outcast, where you could just throw them around with Grip or blast them with Lightning. Those would work just fine on less baddies, but when you're up against a tough Vong, you have to be good with the saber.

And as far as "resisting lightsabers" goes, does anyone remember shadowtroopers? Or how about "Cortosis Armor" (which is a load of balogna, but that's a whole new thread). That actually makes things more interesting and challenging.


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Old 10-14-2003, 08:55 PM   #20
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It can't work. It'd be very much like the Tusken Raider level in JA- hordes of enemies with melee weapons and no defense against you. It would be very "Trek-like." Anyways, there aren't a lot of places to insert a new Jedi character in the NJO timeline without contradicting the books.


P.S. What would we call it anyways? "Jedi Knight: Attack of the Strange Aliens from Another Galaxy"?
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Old 10-14-2003, 09:59 PM   #21
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Re: Re: Could be cool!

Quote:
Originally posted by Prime
The technology in Star Wars is merely the background, and has very little effect on what the story is actually about.
I'd dissagree. The first movie was all about the Death Star, a "technological terror". The whole plot of ANH was about destroying the Death Star. Also the droids were a major part of the storyline, not to mention the ablity to travel at FTL speeds. Tractor beams, star fighters, star ships, ect... All were a major part of the first story, and all other stories really. These elements are as much a part of the storyline of ANH as techonogly is apart of most ST shows.

Quote:
SW makes no real attempt to present a universe that may one day be possible (without getting into the "long time ago" stuff)
A galaxy that is ruled by a "evil empire" that uses techonlogy to control it's subject planets though force, fits very well into a clasic SciFi deffention. Without technology with Empire would never of been able to maintain power. Without technology, the Old Republic would of never been founded in the first place.

Quote:
Again, the "science" aspects of Star Wars are not used to give the story credibility.
Again I would dissagree. Space travel is a major theam of all the SW movies, and required for the story to make sense. FTL travel, laser weapons, droids, ect, are all centeral points of the story. The force and other magical parts are also centeral points of the story, but are not nearly as present as the technological parts are.

Quote:
It certainly does not "pose the effects of current or extrapolated scientific discoveries, or a single discovery, on the behavior of individuals of society." Star Wars is not looking at all at how science affects the human condition.
I think Star Wars is very much about how technology can be used to take power, and keep it though the use of it's force. Without technology, the Empire would of had no power, the major point of it, was to do away with the 'old magic' used by the Old Republic.
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Old 10-15-2003, 12:11 AM   #22
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Re: Re: Re: Could be cool!

Quote:
Originally posted by Vanor
I'd dissagree. The first movie was all about the Death Star, a "technological terror". The whole plot of ANH was about destroying the Death Star. Also the droids were a major part of the storyline, not to mention the ablity to travel at FTL speeds. Tractor beams, star fighters, star ships, ect... All were a major part of the first story, and all other stories really. These elements are as much a part of the storyline of ANH as techonogly is apart of most ST shows.
I know what you are saying, but IMO these things you mention are the background I am talking about. Things like tractor beams, spaceships, droids, and so on fill out the universe, but are not what the story is actually about. No effort is made to explain how hyperspace and starships work or how they affect people of the galaxy. They are simply used as a means to get the characters around from place to place. The droids were just characters, and the fact their were droids really is irrelavent. It helps to define the characters, but the fact that they are droids doesn't affect the outcome of the story. Do you see what I'm getting at?

Quote:
Originally posted by Vanor
A galaxy that is ruled by a "evil empire" that uses techonlogy to control it's subject planets though force, fits very well into a clasic SciFi deffention. Without technology with Empire would never of been able to maintain power. Without technology, the Old Republic would of never been founded in the first place.
But the Empire doesn't rule because of technology. Hell, the rebels had X-Wings, B-Wings, and A-Wings which were all superior technologically compared to Tie Fighters. The Empire maintained control because the Emperor had taken control politically, and thus control of resources. But there is nothing the empire had that was technology-wise much more advanced than what the rebels had. Just bigger guns and bigger ships. But this is besides the point I am trying to make. The story on the large scale was about fighting for freedom against tyranny. Again, it isn't really about how science and technology affects things. Technology is used as the setting and to help move the plot along.

Quote:
Originally posted by Vanor
Again I would dissagree. Space travel is a major theam of all the SW movies, and required for the story to make sense. FTL travel, laser weapons, droids, ect, are all centeral points of the story. The force and other magical parts are also centeral points of the story, but are not nearly as present as the technological parts are.
The Force isn't as present as technology? I disagree. The main focus of the story is how Anakin Skywalker falls to the Darkside, and how Luke Skywalker overcomes it. I would say that the Force is much more relavent to the basic good vs. evil plot than are droids, for example. Does it matter that the characters use blasters? Would the story be any different if the used slug throwers instead? Not really. Would it matter if C-3PO was some kind of alien and not a droid? It wouldn't really affect the outcome of the story, would it? But take away the Force, and now you don't have a reason for why Anakin becomes totally evil, and so on. Again, I think technology helps move the plot along and provides wonderful texture to the universe the story takes place in.

Quote:
Originally posted by Vanor
I think Star Wars is very much about how technology can be used to take power, and keep it though the use of it's force. Without technology, the Empire would of had no power, the major point of it, was to do away with the 'old magic' used by the Old Republic.
But Palpatine didn't use force to take power. It was mostly political brilliance in manipulating the government that allowed him to take control. Remember, he ultimately controlled both sides, clonetroopers and droids alike. Palpatine himself didn't fire a single shot. He rose to power on his own without technological or military might. He got the military might once he got there. The Force, however, had much more to play.

The point wasn't to do away with old magic. Palpatine used the "old magic" help get control of the galaxy. He tried to get rid of the Jedi not because he had something against the Force in particular, but because they were defending what he was trying to take. These defenders just happened to use the Force to be effective. The Empire maintain control through sheer resources and numbers.
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Old 10-15-2003, 12:21 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Master_Keralys
(Traitor, for example, which gave us Matt Stover, the best SW author ever).
I hand that one to Zahn, but that's me. Sorry to get off topic there.
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Old 10-15-2003, 12:35 AM   #24
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Perhaps, setting it in the same time period as Kotor would be a better idea?

Anyway, there's still much to do in the JA time period. Hey, I wanna visit Dagobah!


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Old 10-15-2003, 04:17 AM   #25
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Ho hum

Quote:
I hand that one to Zahn, but that's me. Sorry to get off topic there.
I think Zahn sticks out more in people's minds because he wrote entertaining novels early in the post 90s SW EU literature 'revival.' He gave us Thrawn, and Jade, and many other wonderful characters, but go back and read it, it really feels dated.... Its very 'cartoonish', and as for that whole "Joruus" and "Luuke" crap, that was embarassing - enough with the clones already... not to mention the YOU MUST KILL LUKE SKYWALKER thrown in here and there, painting a detailed picture of Mara's mental anguish.........not. Compare this to Jacen's ordeal in Matt Stover's 'Traitor" and it gets knocked on its ass flat. I'm looking forward to Zahn returning with his new novel, writing about the outbound flight project I believe.......heaven forbid he has to come up with something *new*

I did meet Zahn(and Stackpole) when they came to Australia , they were nice enough to sign some stuff for me Still, SW EU lit and its characters have developed, the authors need to as well,,,,,,

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Old 10-15-2003, 03:19 PM   #26
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On topic, please?

It would actually be a more balanced game, IMO. No throwing reborn off of cliffs with ease. It would also be something new. In the past it's always been Jedi v. Sith. Don't get me wrong, I love that part, it's what makes Star Wars so cool. But having something different would aslo be cool. That's one of the neat things about KOTOR, is that it's the same universe, but you're not killing stormies, and everything's just a little bit different. Something similar could work for the NJO. Or, who knows, maybe they could do a Galaxies game for that! J/k. Seriously, though, I think a JK type game would be interesting. And who says you can't start off with full force? Start as Kyle and develop newer, deeper skills, or something. That'd make everyone happy, it'd really be JK3 then.


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Old 10-15-2003, 06:24 PM   #27
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I thought that the new Jedi Order was what Luke founded after Return of the Jedi. In which case, all the Jedi Knight games have been set during that time.

If you mean a JK game based on those books, where they fight those weird Klingon wannabes, the Yahsagasa Vong, then no. That's pretty much the worst idea ever. A fighter sim based on that storyline might work, but not a Jedi Knight game.
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Old 10-15-2003, 06:40 PM   #28
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Arthur C. Clarke said in 2010: A second Oddysey that the events depicted could be thought of not neccisarily as a sequel, but could also be thought of as events in a different Universe or such. This is how I choose to view the entire NJO storyline - it may happen in one possible set of circumstances, but thats just one dimension.....

Makes me feel better

Anyway, as you can see Keralys, making a mod of such a kind would have a massive polarised response, you'd have a load of people that would hate it and a load that would love it as an idea. On a purely technical point of view - it would be a massive leap as you'd need a tonne of new models, skins and such - wheras most mods can re-use a good deal of what is already in JA.


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Old 10-15-2003, 07:10 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kengo
This is how I choose to view the entire NJO storyline - it may happen in one possible set of circumstances, but thats just one dimension.....

Makes me feel better
I just crack open a case of beer, and eventually I forget the NJO exists.

That makes me feel better
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Old 10-15-2003, 07:11 PM   #30
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I am curious though, what do fans expect to see in the next Jedi Knight Sequel?

The Dark Jedi Groupee has been used- Dark Forces II
Jedi turning to the darkside and going back to the light- Mysteries of the Sith
Jedi returning to the force, fighting huge dark jedi group- Jedi Outcast
Jedi Academy fighting huge dark jedi group- Jedi Academy
Jedi Academy fighting even larger dark jedi group- Jedi Knight 3- NO..Just no...

I'm not too sure what the Jedi should be fighting, besides the Yuuzhan Vong. You may say they're some crazy star trek ripoff, but from reading the 'good novels' in the njo, i've firmly held the belief that the Yuuzhan Vong are the deadliest things ever to invade the galaxy. If you want to talk about ripoffs, then refer to the most recent Star Trek Movie, now that's a Yuuzhan Vong ripoff if you ask me.

Fighting against Yuuzhan Vong, creating strategy to overcome amphistaffs, thud bugs, finding and utilizing weak spots on the Crab armor; sounds like a solid game to me. Not to mention the True Natures of the force glimpsed in Traitor, Dark Jedi, Light Jedi, or a Vergereism Force User




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Old 10-15-2003, 08:22 PM   #31
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Personally, I don't see why a Star Wars Jedi based FPS has to be set post ROTJ.

Why not one around the prequel times? Or around the time of KotOR? Or how about one, without Jedi?

I was thinking, a cool storyline for a fps game, would be set far back in the SW timelines, when the Sith empire had no contact with the Republic for some time: maybe a story of some clan chief or local boss man, getting killed by a rival clan chief, and the young player character seeks revenge, becomes stronger in the darkside, and eventually rises enough to make a play for the throne of the Dark Lord of the Sith.

I mean, there are plenty of stories you could do that doesn't involve the fate of the galaxy. Like, I don't consider DF2: Jedi Knight to be about saving the galaxy - I mean of course Jerec would cause some **** if he wasn't stopped - but the story was more about Kyle Katarn himself, and his personal quest.

Maybe more small scale stories about an individual's personal quest? Being a small scale, you can fit it anywhere and not have many continuity problems as well - between the movies, and most EU material, there are plenty of gaps where small stories can fit in on their own.

To reiterate my argument from my first post; which has nothing to do with my opinion of the NJO series, but a logical hurdle I can see with the making (and marketing) of an NJO game:

"Whereas, a game based on the NJO series, would for one: need to be relative to that book series, which not everyone can relate to; and it would limit the storyline of the game - it would force it into continuity within that series of books."


I don't like quake, never liked quake, and don't like Star Wars quake. So basically jk2mp.exe never gets used on my computer.

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Old 10-15-2003, 08:55 PM   #32
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Hmmmm

Well, looks like it got a bit off the track up there.

I still say it would be a cool idea. I like the idea of some different enimies for starters. The fighting against reborn etc is getting a bit old.

Also, why can't the game have it's own little sub stories that take place during the whole NJO time period? It doesn't have to follow everything that happened in the books. If i remember correctly, there may even be some sort of reference to Kyle Katarn in those books???

It would be something new! Not the same old boring stormtroopers and reborn!
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Old 10-15-2003, 10:30 PM   #33
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Oh how about setting it at the time of the Episode II, where you get sent on missions to prevent unrest throughout the galaxy. Then in the final mission, you get to fight as one of the Jedi on Genosis!


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Old 10-16-2003, 09:43 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by Prime
I just crack open a case of beer, and eventually I forget the NJO exists.

That makes me feel better
The NJO has driven Prime to drink...see what it does to people?

Good point there Pnut_Master, I think its fair to say they could do with something a little more original for a future JK series game if indeed there was one. Everyone seems to love the way KOTOR took things to a time no one else had used, whilst setting it in a recognisable Universe. That would be a good one to try. All the games actually set in the SW original trilogy that I can think of were like on the old consoles such as the SNES and stuff and ...well they were amazing


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Old 10-16-2003, 10:31 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pnut_Master
I am curious though, what do fans expect to see in the next Jedi Knight Sequel?

The Dark Jedi Groupee has been used- Dark Forces II
Jedi turning to the darkside and going back to the light- Mysteries of the Sith
Jedi returning to the force, fighting huge dark jedi group- Jedi Outcast
Jedi Academy fighting huge dark jedi group- Jedi Academy
Jedi Academy fighting even larger dark jedi group- Jedi Knight 3- NO..Just no...
I agree with what you are saying. To reuse the 'Cultist' and 'Reborn' angle yet again would simply be a cop-out, and very unoriginal.

And I don't think everyone here is saying 'Don't make an NJO game at all'. If the NJO is as popular as you say, then fine, they should make a game about it. But it doesn't really have to be a part of the Jedi Knight series. It could use similar concepts, to be sure, but it could still form part of a completely new series focused around those novels.

As others have stated...there's no reason why the next Jedi Knight game can't be set in an entirely different time period. Personally, I don't even think there should be a 'Jedi Knight III'. The numbers are now becoming meaningless, IMHO. I think they've made the right move my dropping the number from Jedi Academy. As far as I'm concerned, Kyle's story has been told, and it's time to move on.

Rather than simply have another Jedi Academy game, where you become yet another student fighting Dark Jedi...it needs to now step beyond it's bounds, and venture further afield.

Taking up on what idontlikegeorge said, the next game in this series really needs to refocus on characterisation. Jaden Korr was basically a cardboard cut-out with no depth whatsoever, and that, in my view, was a major mistake. People followed Kyle's exploits because they grew interested in the character, the decisions he had to make...and find out where his story would end. Well, I did anyway.

I want to see another strong character come into the limelight, with a history, some emotional baggage, and a personal quest to fulfill that ties into the narrative of the current story. And that can be done in any number of ways, and in any time period. I personally like the Jedi Knight style, where your character has no formal training in the Force, but is nevertheless able to use the Force. Someone who has a different life, different concerns, who is suddenly thrust into a dangerous situation and has to use powers they do not fully understand to help them through. Maybe they stumble across an old lightsaber and realise they can use it.

Personally, I'd like to see a lot more stealth and exploration in such a game. Someone who's being oppressed, and has to fight to free his/her own people from tyranny, perhaps.

Basically, the story does not have to tie-in to the main characters in the SW universe. There are other tales, and other heroes, and other events that transpired on other worlds, while Luke and Co. were fighting the Empire on Hoth and Endor.

I wish they would expand on more of the other planets and systems mentioned in the movies and EU. Not just a fleeting visit. I mean, how much of Corellia did we really see? Just a tram. How much of Ord Mantell? A small uninhabited corner...

Let's have an epic battle elsewhere in the universe, with a mixture of all the different races we've come to know.

I'm tired of seeing Grans, Trandoshans and Rodians as stock villains. By the same token, I'd be disappointed to see the next game feature the Vong.

One thing is certain...they need to shed the stale trappings of the past and widen the potential, or I'd rather not see another game in the series at all.
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Old 10-16-2003, 11:49 AM   #36
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Primal

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Quote:
I just crack open a case of beer, and eventually I forget the NJO exists.
Poor NJO, always getting knocked about, even by the mighty Prime !

But, apart form the books/rpg side of things, the NJO hasnt flooded over into any other media, not comics, not (video)games, I cant figure out why LFL would do this...... Can you remember how many games TPM had released with it !!! 90% of them crap, except (pod)Racer, which was old skool racing fun SW style.....

MTFBWYA

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Old 10-16-2003, 12:26 PM   #37
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Re: Primal

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Originally posted by Astrotoy7
But, apart form the books/rpg side of things, the NJO hasnt flooded over into any other media, not comics, not (video)games, I cant figure out why LFL would do this...... Can you remember how many games TPM had released with it !!! 90% of them crap, except (pod)Racer, which was old skool racing fun SW style.....
Yeah, but the marked difference there is that TPM was a movie made by GL himself. There were bound to be games to tie-in to the movie, no matter how bad they were.

NJO is just a part of the EU, and not popular with everyone.

It's probably taken Raven some effort simply to get a lot of the EU content into Jedi Academy as it is...
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Old 10-16-2003, 01:44 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by idontlikegeorge
I mean, there are plenty of stories you could do that doesn't involve the fate of the galaxy.

Maybe more small scale stories about an individual's personal quest? Being a small scale, you can fit it anywhere and not have many continuity problems as well - between the movies, and most EU material, there are plenty of gaps where small stories can fit in on their own.
I agree completely. Just because a story is grand in scale doesn't garruntee that it is good, and small scale doesn't make it bad. Stories that deal with one planet or one small area of the galaxy can be just as interesting, and give a lot more freedom. One thing I loved about the Dark Forces story was that it tied into the movies but was rather small scale.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kengo
Everyone seems to love the way KOTOR took things to a time no one else had used, whilst setting it in a recognisable Universe.
The big difference between a game like KOTOR and an NJO game is that all the elements in KOTOR have a direct connection to the movies. Even though the droids, ships, Sith, and so on are all different styles, they have for the most part a counterpart from the movies. Many NJO concepts and enemies have no connection to the movies, and an in some cases conflict with movie canon.

For the casual fan, the jump to KOTOR is much smaller than the jump to the NJO would be.

Quote:
Originally posted by StormHammer
But it doesn't really have to be a part of the Jedi Knight series.
If the story isn't going to be about Kyle Katarn (either directly or indirectly), I don't think it should be a part of the Dark Forces/Jedi Knight series at all. Jedi Knight is about Katarn and his legacy. If a game is going to take place in a different era with different characters, it should be under a new series.
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Old 10-16-2003, 02:35 PM   #39
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Too divisive, perhaps.

However, I think some game in the time needs to happen; it has the potential to be a great field. Maybe an RPG or something would work better. Or maybe, a Jedi Knight type game, just not under the title. I also think an "x-wing" style sim in that era would be interesting.


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Old 10-16-2003, 03:07 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by Prime
If the story isn't going to be about Kyle Katarn (either directly or indirectly), I don't think it should be a part of the Dark Forces/Jedi Knight series at all. Jedi Knight is about Katarn and his legacy. If a game is going to take place in a different era with different characters, it should be under a new series.
Then perhaps it is time to make another series, because I really had a sense of closure to Kyle's story in Jedi Academy. To continue Kyle's story in any way would really require you to have access to the full range of Force powers he displayed in Jedi Academy. He is a Jedi Master - and there is not a great deal that he would not be able to handle with ease.

That has always been the problem inherent with the series - making the character too powerful to begin with. Frankly, it would be rubbish if they reduced his powers yet again - and I have a feeling a game where you have full access to all of his powers from the very beginning would require the gameplay to be extremely challenging from the very start.

I'm not saying it would be impossible to make such a game...but it would certainly require a great deal more creativity to realise appropriate challenges, and it would most likely alienate any new players because it would necessarily require prior knowledge in the use of Force powers and saber combat.
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