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Old 12-11-2003, 10:02 PM   #81
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Old 12-11-2003, 10:15 PM   #82
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Re: Hold the phone....!

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
So your innendo that I don't know anything because I'm a n00b falls flat. Next time at least try to provide some evidence before you bash me for no reason. [/B]
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Old 12-11-2003, 10:25 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally posted by TK8252MJL
Nope. But who says all n00bs just JUMP right into the game without a little research first? I know I read up a little before jumping in...
I do research about gameplay dynamics before I jump into games (Except new releases). Back when I started playing JK2, I did research on the moves, weapons, etc before playing but as I found out later, most of the moves possible to do in the game weren't even discovered/widely known. And much to my horror, there was an honor code not even talked about in the manual or any sites.

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Aren't you in the g// clan or something?
No, /<aoticz actually but that has nothing to do with this.


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Old 12-11-2003, 10:32 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally posted by TK8252MJL
Although I like the language filter in one of these mods... was it Xmod?

I'm praying that cHoSeN oNe will be adding a server setting which allows a player to keep their saber turned on in a Force grip.
xMod 2.1.0 has both of those features already. And the abusive commands are likely to be on the way out.

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Old 12-11-2003, 10:44 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
Personally I think the honor codes are an insult to the game and the hard work the developers put into it.
How so? It just shows that people love their game so much that they take the game to the next level...

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
They were created because people wanted to take 1% of the gameplay and do only that, most likely because they couldn't be bothered to learn to adapt to the complex tactics needed to win in a battle with all weapons and powers enabled.
We do our share of FFAing. Yes, REAL FFA. We use a code of conduct so other people can play at their own pace. Not forced to join the fight or die.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
The folks who promote honor codes as the greatest thing since sliced bread are the same people you hear saying "OMG ABSORB IS CHEAP!" "GRIP IS UNSTOPPABLE!" "QUIT SPAMMING!" "Taht wuz LAME! YOU CHEATER!" "U scripter KICK HIM!" and other familiar cries of the whiner.
I've never said any of these things in my life, nor has many other honor players.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
The "bowing" thing probably was to signal you were ready for a duel, but it's nonesensical because in a Saber Challenge the game already says "Begin!" and ignites both your sabers. What more signal do you need that you're "ready"?
Begin means start, not ready. I don't let my computer speak for me.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
And why do you have to show "respect" to a total stranger you're playing an online game with (99.99999% of people don't even use their real names as handles)? Isn't respect earned?
Well if your opponent is going to take 2 seconds out of the duel to bow to me, why not just bow back? Return respect for respect.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
It's not even part of Star Wars to bow before a duel, or to "show honor." Just watch the films again and you'll see how the movie Jedi/Sith MISERABLY FAIL to live up to the honor codes these guys in the community claim to follow like the Gospel Truth.
This is a multiplayer video game, not a movie. As the manual says:

Quote:
Remember, you're playing with other people.
Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
TK8252MJL
Call me TK.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
In the "Criticis Corner" forum and on these forums Hex made comments that he was going to remove the abusive admin commands in the next version.
Cool! That's some good news.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
Trust me on this, he's come around, he's implementing MUCH BETTER SOLUTIONS that will allow you to enforce your made-up honor codes all you want, WITHOUT resorting to the stupid pointless abuse-prone commands like amslap/slay/punish.
I never would think of using these commands on anyone but myself, my friends, or bots. Don't assume that all honor folks are 12 year old power tripping ass****s...
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Old 12-11-2003, 11:15 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally posted by TK8252MJL
How so? It just shows that people love their game so much that they take the game to the next level...
What? Standing around and chatting is taking the game to the next level?

Quote:
We do our share of FFAing. Yes, REAL FFA. We use a code of conduct so other people can play at their own pace. Not forced to join the fight or die.
I've seen honor FFA. It consists of combat inclosed in a small area where many people who have no idea what they are doing swing their sabers around randomly, hoping to hit someone while randomly switching force powers on and off.

Uh... If someone can't take the fact that they died, shouldn't they be 1) not playing the game at all or 2) in spec mode?

Quote:
I've never said any of these things in my life, nor has many other honor players.
I've seen those quotes said many times actually, all by honor players or friends of mine (and myself) making fun of honor players.

Quote:
Begin means start, not ready. I don't let my computer speak for me.
Neither do I or most other people but when it says "begin" I damn well better be ready or my turn might as well be given up. Making people wait is rude.

Quote:
Well if your opponent is going to take 2 seconds out of the duel to bow to me, why not just bow back? Return respect for respect.
I don't give my respect out just like that.

It doesn't seem to be based on respect, which is why I use the term "honor" very loosely. Bowing seems more like a ritual that most players seem to think is necessary or the game cannot go on, and it's implanted so deep in their heads that duels cannot start without bowing that they cannot start a duel without it. I base this off the fact that I've gotten a lot of honor players mad and cursing at me but whenever I'd duel them, they'd bow and after the fight continue cursing/calling me a "lamer."

Quote:
This is a multiplayer video game, not a movie. As the manual says:
I think Kurgan was trying to point on that most honor players are deeply into StarWars and seem to think that not bowing would make this not StarWars-like.


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Old 12-12-2003, 12:01 AM   #87
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you shouldn't saber challenge if you aren't ready. you shouldn't come out of the spectator mode if you aren't ready and willing to fight.

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Old 12-12-2003, 12:05 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally posted by TK8252MJL
Nope. But who says all n00bs just JUMP right into the game without a little research first? I know I read up a little before jumping in...

Aren't you in the g// clan or something?
we used to be. we didn't get in it by chatting that is for sure.

and we had the most popular ffa/tffa server before we switched it over to JA and later shut it down. why? we didn't allow any references to laming, honor codes, or bowing. the server was packed 24/7. another reason why? there were only 7/8 servers out there that allowed this type of ffa/tffa types of play. if that many. real ctf servers never had a real problem with honor nubs.

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Old 12-12-2003, 06:13 AM   #89
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Rumor wtf, i am waiting for the challenge.
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Old 12-12-2003, 07:04 AM   #90
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Originally posted by Rumor
We challenged you months ago. You never responded.

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Old 12-12-2003, 09:06 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally posted by TK8252MJL
How so? It just shows that people love their game so much that they take the game to the next level...
What about the people who love the game so much they practice and get good at it, not just one small aspect of it (NF saber fighting) but the whole thing? Are their desires worthless or inferior?

"Honor" in JA/JK2 is the equivalent of paring down the game of Football (American for you soccer fans) to "playing catch."

Playing catch can be quite fun and relaxing, however it is intended as a training mechanism to improve your skills that are applicable in the real game.

The same is true for saber challenge dueling. It's applicable as training your saber fighting skills for use in other game types.

Granted though there is a gametype that features ONLY dueling, and that's... Duel.

The trouble is the "Honor" folks are taking one bonus feature of FFA (the saber challenge) and eliminating all other aspects of the game in favor of this feature, then heaping derision on the rest fo the community who isn't so (for lack of a better term) "narrow minded."

It's not taking it to the next level, it's taking it DOWN several notches.

The people who "take it to the next level" would be the tournament winners, the CPL pros and that sort of thing.

I suppose in a different way the RPG players might be taking it to a new level, but one that the developers of the game never intended....

Quote:
We do our share of FFAing. Yes, REAL FFA. We use a code of conduct so other people can play at their own pace. Not forced to join the fight or die.
Hey, that's cool. At least you admit there are other legitimate ways to play rather than the "honor or nothing" attitude exhibited by far too many "h0n0r d00dz."

Quote:
I've never said any of these things in my life, nor has many other honor players.
Good, because the large number that do say these things give the general impression that "h0n0r d00dz" are a bunch of self-righteous sore-losers who want to force their beliefs on everyone else. ; p

That's why many of us cringe when we hear somebody mention "honor" and "JA" or "JK2" in the same sentence.

Quote:
Begin means start, not ready. I don't let my computer speak for me.
When the gun goes off the race has begun. Nobody cares if you're not ready... YOU LOSE! The other guys are racing.

The flag goes down and everybody sets off. If you just stand there like an idiot, well, you just screwed up, better luck next time.

In a friendly pickup game, it's just rude and annoying not to be ready at the start like everyone else.

As a participant in a competition (yes, a Duel is a competition, by definition!), it is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO BE READY when the game tells you to start.

Besides, there is a delay of what.. 2 seconds between the time the other person accepts and you can actually start fighting? That's adequate time to get "ready." What do you need to do that's so important before the duel? If your controls aren't set, don't challenge the person until that part is completed, don't be rude wasting their time. Or just suck it up and fight, and when you die, fix it then.

If bowing is simply tapping the crouch key, that takes what.. 1/5 a second? It's not like you need to elaborately waste time then wait for them to do it. Just fight already...

It's bad enough having to wait in line for Duels, but when you have to spend time with all these elaborate rituals it just gets even more silly (doesn't matter if you're the only people on the server of course).

Quote:
Well if your opponent is going to take 2 seconds out of the duel to bow to me, why not just bow back? Return respect for respect.
Yeah, but the "h0n0r d00dz" always want you to bow first and they assume if you don't bow that you're a "lamer" and try to get you kicked or gang up on you. ; p

If he wants to bow to me fine, but why do I have to bow to him? Maybe I don't care about respect in a video game. He can show me respect by beating me, not by aiming his mouse downward or tapping the crouch key.

Quote:
I never would think of using these commands on anyone but myself, my friends, or bots. Don't assume that all honor folks are 12 year old power tripping ass****s...
No, but the ones that abuse these commands tend to conjure up that image in our minds.

They may not really all be bratty 12 year old's, but they have the same maturity level. ; p

The commands are too much of a temptation for people, that's why they should be taken out or reserved for a "cheats mode" (like devmap). The fact is too many admins can't handle them in a responsible manner.

And since we have no way to screen out the bad admins (there's no age restriction, background checks, etc for people wanting to host servers or give out subadmin positions)... it's much easier just not to give them these powers in the first place.


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Old 12-12-2003, 03:05 PM   #92
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actually the whole concept of the challenge is for when a leading player wants to see if he is better than another. its not meant to be used constantly. think of it as a "score settler"

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Old 12-12-2003, 03:19 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally posted by TK8252MJL
...never said any of these things in my life, nor has many other honor players.
I respectfully could not disagree more strongly.
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Old 12-12-2003, 07:07 PM   #94
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bowing is still gay.


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Old 12-12-2003, 07:10 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally posted by FK | unnamed
bowing is still gay.


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Old 12-12-2003, 07:34 PM   #96
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Thumbs up

Quote:
actually the whole concept of the challenge is for when a leading player wants to see if he is better than another. its not meant to be used constantly. think of it as a "score settler"
Conceded. I should have said "duels in general" (ie: the dueling gametype).


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Old 12-12-2003, 08:46 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
Granted though there is a gametype that features ONLY dueling, and that's... Duel.
Great thing about FFA mode... you can have MULTIPLE people dueling, and you are able to move freely around the map and engage in a real FFA, RPing, or private chats.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
I suppose in a different way the RPG players might be taking it to a new level, but one that the developers of the game never intended....
RPers have imagination. Anything wrong with that? They can think outside of the game.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
When the gun goes off the race has begun. Nobody cares if you're not ready... YOU LOSE! The other guys are racing.
This is a video game... not a professional sporting event.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
The flag goes down and everybody sets off. If you just stand there like an idiot, well, you just screwed up, better luck next time.
Not if everyone else just stands there "like an idiot".

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
In a friendly pickup game, it's just rude and annoying not to be ready at the start like everyone else.
Bowing is rude?

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
It's bad enough having to wait in line for Duels, but when you have to spend time with all these elaborate rituals it just gets even more silly (doesn't matter if you're the only people on the server of course).
This is one of the things the admin mods are for! Multiple duels at once! And waiting in line to duel in the duel gamemode is another reason why the "honor style" servers set up an FFA, not duel mode.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
Yeah, but the "h0n0r d00dz" always want you to bow first and they assume if you don't bow that you're a "lamer" and try to get you kicked or gang up on you. ; p
Not where I play...

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
If he wants to bow to me fine, but why do I have to bow to him?
You don't have to (where I play, at least).

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
They may not really all be bratty 12 year old's, but they have the same maturity level. ; p
I know that AmosMagee, M. Chrono, and ShroomDuck don't act like 12 year old brats, that's for sure.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
The fact is too many admins can't handle them in a responsible manner.
True. And it's pretty sad, really.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
it's much easier just not to give them these powers in the first place.
Well if no one comes to their server due to abuse, maybe they'll get the idea. Boycotts have worked before, and they'll work now!

Quote:
Originally posted by FK | unnamed
bowing is still gay.
You have a right to your opinion, but why must it be expressed with vulgar language? It just shows that you cannot find proper adjectives to describe your feelings towards something.
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Old 12-12-2003, 09:35 PM   #98
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Old 12-13-2003, 12:51 AM   #99
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Red face

Quote:
Originally posted by TK8252MJL Great thing about FFA mode... you can have MULTIPLE people dueling, and you are able to move freely around the map and engage in a real FFA, RPing, or private chats.
That's perfectly valid, however, it's chaos if everybody is doing something differnet. That's why the game is normally setup so that the majority of people are actually playing (FFA), with maybe one or two people spectating (to chat) and one pair of people "dueling" (saber challenge).

Server's that try to be a RPG-room, chatroom, dueling room AND FFA all at once follow the age-old saying... "jack of all trades.. master of none."

Can you say "lag"? I knew you could. Besides, it's inevitable that those RPGers, chatters, duelists and FFAers are going to get in each other's way and then you'll have whining, cussing and call-vote kicking. ; p

Better to have a specialized server that supports one type of gameplay.

Quote:
RPers have imagination. Anything wrong with that? They can think outside of the game.
LARPING in a first person shooter is a bad idea. Why? Because the game is not setup or intended for that kind of use. Take it to a place suited to role playing, such as an RPG newgroup, chatroom or actual LARP. Or maybe even an RPG online game (there are dozens out there, even ones that are... gasp! free!). There's even Star Wars role playing games!

And are you saying that non-RPG players lack imagination?

Frankly, imagination or lack thereof has nothing to do with it. It's that the game was made for people to FIGHT and BATTLE in, and that's what the majority of people seek to do and want to do. The few RPGers and "h0n0r d00dz" just get in the way.

If they want to do it on their own private specialized servers, fine, but they have this attitude that the worlds owes them and they need to convert the world to their style of "play."

Quote:
This is a video game... not a professional sporting event.
This is a first person shooter, not a LARP.
This is a video game, not IRC.
This is about defeating your enemies to score points, not show who is more "honorable."

And with things like CPL and large organized tournaments, you can make it a "professional sporting event."

Or are you going to assert that only RPG players and "h0n0r d00dz" are in it to have fun? For most online gamers competition = fun!

Quote:
Bowing is rude?
In a manner of speaking, yes, yes it is.

When you're waiting in line for a duel, you expect the people ahead of you to play, and get their battle over with so you can have your turn. It's common courtesy. If they waste time chatting, bowing and doing elaborate rituals (ie: anything other than fighting) their wasting YOUR TIME.

You may like to wait while they do all this extra stuff that has no effect on the battle whatsoever, but most people don't.

You have to wait long enough as it is, without all this gabbing and crouch button tapping or people whining that they're "not ready" and that they were "lamed" and therefore deserve another chance (again while everyone else waits).

Quote:
This is one of the things the admin mods are for! Multiple duels at once! And waiting in line to duel in the duel gamemode is another reason why the "honor style" servers set up an FFA, not duel mode.
The trouble is people (mis)use FFA as a dueling server, and they wait in line for saber challenges. It's just like a Dueling server only laggier (since you have to render all those bodies with their sabers off and the glowy shaders around the duelists, plus the fact that FFA maps are much bigger and more complex than Duel maps, which are just arenas meant for 2-3 people to fight in).

The "multi duel allowed in FFA" option is fine. I can see how that would save waiting in line, however the majority of "honor" servers don't seem to take advantage of this. Instead they make rules that you have to "wait in line" to fight. Also, multi-duels may be a fun feature, but that doesn't mean you also need amLaming or even an "honor code" does it?

I do saber challenges all the time on my server, and I don't acknowledge any "honor codes" nor do I employ any admin mods.

Somehow I don't need those crutches and artificial rules to enjoy this bonus feature. Strange that some people insist they need them...?

In fact, multiple duels don't even require an admin mod. You could just make a mod with multi duels as a feature all by itself.

You act as if Amlaming, honor codes and Multiduels are an essential part of Admin Mods. They aren't and don't have to be.

Quote:
I know that AmosMagee, M. Chrono, and ShroomDuck don't act like 12 year old brats, that's for sure.
And yet, with few exceptions, the experiences of people on these forums have been overwhelmingly negative on Admin Mods that employ amlaming commands both in JK2 and JA.

Maybe some people are masochists and like this sort of thing?

My thing is that if a "good admin" doesn't employ Amlaming, then what's the point of having those commands in the first place?

And I know of admins who shun both honor codes and amlaming, so what's the point?

The point is that Admin Mods and AmLaming are ADDICTIVE. Thus, like other addictive substances with potentially harmful effects, their use by children should be regulated.

Thus it's the responsibility of the community members to let Admin Mod authors know that these sorts of things (amlaming) have no place in the community, they simply aren't welcome.

And it's the Admin Mod authors's reponsibility to make sure they don't put in easily abusable commands and they keep their source code private to prevent ignorant people from ripping off their code, putting in abusive commands and then releasing them for 12 year old maturity-level admins to abuse.


Quote:
Well if no one comes to their server due to abuse, maybe they'll get the idea. Boycotts have worked before, and they'll work now!
Sure, but the root of the problem is that Admin Mod Authors don't realize the harm their mods cause.

Rather than letting them proliferate unchecked and then try to shame a few admins into not using them, it makes more sense to convince Mod Authors that amlaming and other abuse is unacceptable.

Do you see what I'm getting at?

It's silly to give machineguns to kids and then assume that they'll all be good if we just scold them enough. Better not to give them the machineguns in the first place.

Admin Mod Authors won't stop the problem of "honor," but they can help put a stop to the problem of amlaming and other blatant Admin Abuse.

They say the best way to fight ignorance is with knowledge. So help spread the word of the destructive influence of "honor" and "amlaming" and help keep this FPS gaming community an FPS gaming community, and not an abusive bully community where only "h0n0r d00dz" and "RPGers" are welcome.


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Old 12-13-2003, 08:37 AM   #100
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rumor
We challenged you months ago. You never responded. /QUOTE]

When was this damit.
If it was in the game i must have not read it cause i never eject a challenge.
If you challenged me through this forum, i dont check it often so it most likely i never respond.
Stop saying i challenged u i challenged u and challenge me now. Now that i am actually reading this.
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Old 12-13-2003, 08:48 AM   #101
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Originally posted by Rad Blackrose
IF YOU DON'T CARE FOR <insert mod here> , AND PREFER SOMETHING ALONG THE LINES OF <insert mod here>, THEN GET OUT!


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Old 12-13-2003, 04:03 PM   #102
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The function of the oNe...

As I realize my purpose is to undo what damage these mods have done.

Let's just hope that enough server admins will switch to Reloaded and join the new revolution of admin mods. When Omnicrap and JA Mod copy++ are snuffed out; The war with admin mods could be over. Isnt that worth fighting for? Isnt that worth coding for?

Hee-hee...


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Old 12-13-2003, 05:09 PM   #103
Amidala from Chop Shop
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Re: The function of the oNe...

Quote:
Originally posted by zERoCooL2479
As I realize my purpose is to undo what damage these mods have done.

Let's just hope that enough server admins will switch to Reloaded and join the new revolution of admin mods. When Omnicrap and JA Mod copy++ are snuffed out; The war with admin mods could be over. Isnt that worth fighting for? Isnt that worth coding for?

Hee-hee...
I second that emotion.

Server admins considering OmNi Admin Mod or JA+ Mod 1.3 should forget those (unless and until the abusive commands get removed) and go with Jedi Academy Reloaded instead. Forget the imitators, get the real deal.

Players should avoid servers running OmNi Admin Mod or JA+ Mod (again, unless the authors wise up and take out the abusive commands) unless they are masochists (people who enjoy pain and suffering) or sadists (people who enjoy inflicting pain and seeing others suffer). The All Seeing Eye http://www.udpsoft.com/eye2/index.html
tells you what mod a server is running (if any).

Boycott servers with abusive admin mods!

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Old 12-13-2003, 06:27 PM   #104
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This is starting to sound like some sort of parent protest against GTA games...


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Old 12-13-2003, 07:17 PM   #105
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Re: The function of the oNe...

Quote:
Originally posted by zERoCooL2479
As I realize my purpose is to undo what damage these mods have done.

Let's just hope that enough server admins will switch to Reloaded and join the new revolution of admin mods. When Omnicrap and JA Mod copy++ are snuffed out; The war with admin mods could be over. Isnt that worth fighting for? Isnt that worth coding for?

Hee-hee...
ACtually, I think you need to go a step farther and attempt to unite all the admin mods under one banner, perferably with OJP, but not nessecarily.

Unfortunately, admins have shown that they are more willing to host admin mods over mods that pass on admin tools and do other things instead. The result is that many cool mods get left in the dust.


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Old 12-13-2003, 08:13 PM   #106
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I consider the following admin commands to be valid...

- kick (easy to understand)

- ban (same here)

- kickban (same here)

- silence (silence whoever is cussing or saying other annoying things, not wanting to stop talking bull****, etc)

- freeze (many newbies have problems reading the chat for some strange reason, freezing them perhaps makes them notice the big MOTD that is right under their nose, or the simple chat message explaining the rules)

- rename (rename somebody that has a racist or offensive name, and refuses to change name, you can now just simply change their name into something more normal)

As for the slay and slap, I think they're not necessary at all.


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Old 12-13-2003, 08:33 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally posted by Master William
I consider the following admin commands to be valid...

- kick (easy to understand)

- ban (same here)

- kickban (same here)

- silence (silence whoever is cussing or saying other annoying things, not wanting to stop talking bull****, etc)

- freeze (many newbies have problems reading the chat for some strange reason, freezing them perhaps makes them notice the big MOTD that is right under their nose, or the simple chat message explaining the rules)

- rename (rename somebody that has a racist or offensive name, and refuses to change name, you can now just simply change their name into something more normal)

As for the slay and slap, I think they're not necessary at all.
Finally, some common ground has been attained.
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Old 12-13-2003, 08:34 PM   #108
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Re: Re: The function of the oNe...

Quote:
Originally posted by razorace
Unfortunately, admins have shown that they are more willing to host admin mods over mods that pass on admin tools and do other things instead. The result is that many cool mods get left in the dust.
Not necessarily true. I have two Disruption mod instagib servers that have no admin functions (unfortunately). I asked the author to add three essential admin capabilities:
1. Client IP logging
2. Moving the banlist out of g_banips to a file
3. Controlling the use of /kill (good for CTF, bad for TFFA)

Multi-line MOTD is also very nice but not essential. He said he is working on an admin mod (yes, just what the world needs) and might add those features to Disruption mod later.

There were a lot of really great mods in JK2, but a lot of them had the same problem: they weren't server-side only. In the real world, it is almost impossible to get players to download and install custom maps, much less download and properly install a client-server mod. Look at Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy: 99% of the servers that are running mods and have people playing on them are running server-side mods.

As for OJP, it is very interesting and I am watching it, but it isn't at the 1.0.0 version stage yet. When it is finished, I might host it just so I could have Holocron FFA back (and I would also inflict JediMaster on people because I like it). xMod2 is also open source. Have you talked to Master Hex about contributing code?


Last edited by Amidala from Chop Shop; 12-13-2003 at 09:21 PM.
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Old 12-13-2003, 09:17 PM   #109
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Check the server lists, how many run admin mods vs client/server mods?

And I'm confused how the version number has anything to do with OJP. Admitedly, it doesn't have any admin enhancements because noone has some submitted any, but everything else works fine.

I've talked to the authors of several of the admins and have gotten noncommital answers from all of them.

But I don't think I've talked to the xmod guy because I personally don't like the elitst attitude surrounding the project, the cvar overload, abusable admin commands, and the way they seem to think that reintroducing old unbalanced game elements without balances is the l33t3zt thing ever. Those are the sort of things that I beleive hurts the community in the first place.


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Old 12-13-2003, 09:23 PM   #110
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Oops, you replied before I got my edit in. See my edited post above.

Well, again to repeat, the only really successful mods, admin or otherwise, are server-side only. That's just the harsh reality.

I have made unbelievable efforts just to get people to download and install just one map pack, but few do it. Even with the "official" Bonus Map Pack by Raven Software, I had automated server messages every 15 minutes for 2 days:

"The JA Bonus Map Pack will be added to the rotation this weekend"
"Download it at www.lucasfiles.com or www.pcgamemods.com/3378"

"The JA Bonus Map Pack will be added to the rotation this weekend"
"Download it at www.lucasfiles.com or www.pcgamemods.com/3378"

"The JA Bonus Map Pack will be added to the rotation this weekend"
"Download it at www.lucasfiles.com or www.pcgamemods.com/3378"

Over and over and over again. Then last night I started saying "Bonus maps start in 40 minutes, make sure you have them". I did a countdown every 10 minutes, and then when the first bonus map started, I went from a full server with 12 people to a server with 2 people.

Now if they won't\can't\don't download and install an "official" map pack from Raven, just imagine getting them to download and install a client-server mod. Forget it, won't happen. I tried that in JK2 with Dueler's Mod, a mod with a lot of great features and admin commands included. Lots of work and effort, very little to show for it.

Bottom line: if you want to make a mod that will get used, make it server-side. If you want all the cool things that a client-server mod can do, you will have to accept the fact that few people will ever enjoy all of your hard work.

P.S.- Go to the =X= forum http://x.fragism.com/forum/index.php and talk to Hex directly. I really don't think he is elitist at all. And he is bowing to the will of the people and replacing abuse commands with something better for the honor doods. I bet he will be the only "admin" mod author who will help you out.


Last edited by Amidala from Chop Shop; 12-13-2003 at 09:44 PM.
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Old 12-13-2003, 10:08 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
Besides, it's inevitable that those RPGers, chatters, duelists and FFAers are going to get in each other's way and then you'll have whining, cussing and call-vote kicking. ; p
With proper administration, it's possible. And if people could just follow rules, there would be no need for admins or mods. The admin mods are created to handle people who have an issue with following rules.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
LARPING in a first person shooter is a bad idea. Why? Because the game is not setup or intended for that kind of use. Take it to a place suited to role playing, such as an RPG newgroup, chatroom or actual LARP. Or maybe even an RPG online game (there are dozens out there, even ones that are... gasp! free!). There's even Star Wars role playing games!
The Jedi Knight series games are great, and those RP games are no where near as good.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
And are you saying that non-RPG players lack imagination?
No, it's just that RPers want to do different things, rather than just what the game is meant for.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
If they want to do it on their own private specialized servers, fine, but they have this attitude that the worlds owes them and they need to convert the world to their style of "play."
Wrong... once again, not ALL honor players have this idea to take over the gaming community.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
This is a first person shooter, not a LARP.
This is a video game, not IRC.
This is about defeating your enemies to score points, not show who is more "honorable."
So who says the game must be played exactly how it was intended for? Please answer me that.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
Or are you going to assert that only RPG players and "h0n0r d00dz" are in it to have fun? For most online gamers competition = fun!
People can have fun in their own way. For some people, fighting in real competitions is fun. For others, honorable play is fun.

Quote:
Orignally posted by Kurgan
When you're waiting in line for a duel, you expect the people ahead of you to play, and get their battle over with so you can have your turn. It's common courtesy. If they waste time chatting, bowing and doing elaborate rituals (ie: anything other than fighting) their wasting YOUR TIME.
MULTIPLE DUELZ pWnZ j00!!!!!!!!!!11111

Quote:
Orignally posted by Kurgan
The "multi duel allowed in FFA" option is fine. I can see how that would save waiting in line, however the majority of "honor" servers don't seem to take advantage of this. Instead they make rules that you have to "wait in line" to fight. Also, multi-duels may be a fun feature, but that doesn't mean you also need amLaming or even an "honor code" does it?
Where I play we never wait in line to duel. But like in this mod, JAR, amlaming was taken out. Commands like slap, slay, punish, bunny, etc. are not needed.

Quote:
Orignally posted by Kurgan
I do saber challenges all the time on my server, and I don't acknowledge any "honor codes" nor do I employ any admin mods.
Thats fine, you like to play your way, and I like to play my way.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
Somehow I don't need those crutches and artificial rules to enjoy this bonus feature. Strange that some people insist they need them...?
This is because you play differently than the honor folks. YOU don't need rules and admin commands because you have a REAL FFA server.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
You act as if Amlaming, honor codes and Multiduels are an essential part of Admin Mods. They aren't and don't have to be.
Amlame commands are BAD parts of admin mods. That's why cHoSeN oNe has taken them out!

Quote:
Orignally posted by Kurgan
My thing is that if a "good admin" doesn't employ Amlaming, then what's the point of having those commands in the first place?
There is no point in amlame commands. And I never said there was.

Quote:
Orignally posted by Kurgan
And I know of admins who shun both honor codes and amlaming, so what's the point?
All admins have their own rules, some have honor codes, others don't.

Quote:
Orignally posted by Kurgan
Thus it's the responsibility of the community members to let Admin Mod authors know that these sorts of things (amlaming) have no place in the community, they simply aren't welcome.
Well cHoSeN oNe has seen the light, but we still have to get those others to see it!

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
And it's the Admin Mod authors's reponsibility to make sure they don't put in easily abusable commands and they keep their source code private to prevent ignorant people from ripping off their code, putting in abusive commands and then releasing them for 12 year old maturity-level admins to abuse.
cHoSeN oNe is not releasing his source code, I think he's doing a great job trying to prevent admin abuse.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
Rather than letting them proliferate unchecked and then try to shame a few admins into not using them, it makes more sense to convince Mod Authors that amlaming and other abuse is unacceptable.
I agree.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
It's silly to give machineguns to kids and then assume that they'll all be good if we just scold them enough. Better not to give them the machineguns in the first place.
I agree. Unload the gun first, such as cHoSeN oNe has done.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
So help spread the word of the destructive influence of "honor" and "amlaming" and help keep this FPS gaming community an FPS gaming community, and not an abusive bully community where only "h0n0r d00dz" and "RPGers" are welcome.
I've already started spreading the word to boycott abusive mods and commands. I've started right in my own clan forums.

Quote:
Originally posted by Master William
I consider the following admin commands to be valid...

- kick (easy to understand)

- ban (same here)

- kickban (same here)

- silence (silence whoever is cussing or saying other annoying things, not wanting to stop talking bull****, etc)

- freeze (many newbies have problems reading the chat for some strange reason, freezing them perhaps makes them notice the big MOTD that is right under their nose, or the simple chat message explaining the rules)

- rename (rename somebody that has a racist or offensive name, and refuses to change name, you can now just simply change their name into something more normal)

As for the slay and slap, I think they're not necessary at all.
Dude... do we think alike or what? And see, these are the commands that cHoSeN oNe has in JAR.
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Old 12-13-2003, 10:17 PM   #112
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Real admins think the same

Just joking there
I think the bunny/slap/slay stuff are just for fun, not really needed. I would perhaps use such commands at friends I know(just to annoy them for fun ), not at some poor newbie.


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Old 12-13-2003, 10:20 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally posted by Master William
Real admins think the same
I'm sorry, I don't follow...

Nothing new there!
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Old 12-13-2003, 10:54 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally posted by Amidala from Chop Shop
Oops, you replied before I got my edit in. See my edited post above.

Well, again to repeat, the only really successful mods, admin or otherwise, are server-side only. That's just the harsh reality.

I have made unbelievable efforts just to get people to download and install just one map pack, but few do it. Even with the "official" Bonus Map Pack by Raven Software, I had automated server messages every 15 minutes for 2 days:

"The JA Bonus Map Pack will be added to the rotation this weekend"
"Download it at www.lucasfiles.com or www.pcgamemods.com/3378"

"The JA Bonus Map Pack will be added to the rotation this weekend"
"Download it at www.lucasfiles.com or www.pcgamemods.com/3378"

"The JA Bonus Map Pack will be added to the rotation this weekend"
"Download it at www.lucasfiles.com or www.pcgamemods.com/3378"

Over and over and over again. Then last night I started saying "Bonus maps start in 40 minutes, make sure you have them". I did a countdown every 10 minutes, and then when the first bonus map started, I went from a full server with 12 people to a server with 2 people.

Now if they won't\can't\don't download and install an "official" map pack from Raven, just imagine getting them to download and install a client-server mod. Forget it, won't happen. I tried that in JK2 with Dueler's Mod, a mod with a lot of great features and admin commands included. Lots of work and effort, very little to show for it.

Bottom line: if you want to make a mod that will get used, make it server-side. If you want all the cool things that a client-server mod can do, you will have to accept the fact that few people will ever enjoy all of your hard work.

P.S.- Go to the =X= forum http://x.fragism.com/forum/index.php and talk to Hex directly. I really don't think he is elitist at all. And he is bowing to the will of the people and replacing abuse commands with something better for the honor doods. I bet he will be the only "admin" mod author who will help you out.
make your server, just the map pack maps.

Did you make a mod?


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Old 12-13-2003, 11:59 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally posted by TK8252MJL
With proper administration, it's possible. And if people could just follow rules, there would be no need for admins or mods. The admin mods are created to handle people who have an issue with following rules.
And if there are no added-on made-up rules (to speak of) there is even less need for abusive admin mods or the admins to enforce them.

It seems to me that some of those who most ardently and at great length defend honor codes, rules, and admin mods are those who, like Soviet apparatchiks

ap·pa·ra·tchik ( P ) Pronunciation Key (äp-rächk)
n. pl. ap·pa·ra·tchiks or ap·pa·ra·tchi·ki (-ch-k)
1. A member of a Communist apparat.
2. An unquestioningly loyal subordinate, especially of a political leader or organization.


have the most to lose from the elimination of an oppressive totalitarian system: those "admins" (really subadmins because in most cases they don't pay for\host the server AND have rcon access AND have FTP access to server files if it's a hosted server) who would lose their "jobs" and have to go back to being regular old players if there were no more honor codes or admin mods.

For example, someone like this (sorry TK)
Quote:
Originally posted by TK8252MJL
I just want to be an admin because it would be cool to have infinite power over people. Not that i'd be a power abuser, it's just that I want to be incharge.

BTW, there are servers that are meant for all out war, so join those.
or this (sorry Master William):
Quote:
Originally posted by Master William
Even if they are, I am admin at that server (it's a gameservers.net server) so I don't have to worry about getting kicked or chased or stuff like that.
Quote:
Originally posted by Master William
I do like it, but I've never seen such a complicated... yet whiny... community for a game. I see it as a fight- and chat arena, sometimes I just screw fighting and I just watch other people fight, and I just sit and relax in a corner or something. This of course being at the server I am admin at, of course. (This meaning all gameservers.net servers)
Quote:
Originally posted by Master William
Hmm... Gameservers.net FFA (03) is the server I am admin at. (i'm an admin for gameservers.net), and it's the one i play at mostly I guess.
Quote:
Originally posted by Master William
Nothing annoys me with lamers. It used to, in my very best JK2 old days, I used to run around screaming 'lamer! OMG!!!' etc.

Anyways, what DOES annoy me with JA is when you have set your own server rules (or when I'm admin at the gameservers.net servers, which I am) and people just jump in and break the rules, even though I press the + key (bind + key say ^4Breaking these rules will get you kicked.... etc).

Otherwise, I'm fine with it. Just hate the rule breakers who can't read the chat messages when it's necessary.
Quote:
Originally posted by Master William
If they do that ''saber off'' trick against you, you should kill them for that. A guy at the server I'm administrating (gameservers.net server) ....
Quote:
Originally posted by Master William
I understand how it is being an admin at those servers. I am an admin at the public gameservers.net servers, and heck do I get tired of telling people the same thing. Retards run around breaking the server rules, totally ignoring my damn spammage of the rules (I have to spam if they don't stop it), and I end up warning them 2-3 times. They don't seem to give a ****, so I kick them. They come back asking why they were kicked. I explain that he/she must follow the server rules, or get kicked. He/she starts cussing, and disconnects.

But hey, even if you wrote it in the sky with smoke, they wouldn't understand it, because they would rather scratch their asses instead of looking up.

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Old 12-14-2003, 12:10 AM   #116
TK-8252
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Quote:
Originally posted by Amidala from Chop Shop
And if there are no added-on made-up rules (to speak of) there is even less need for abusive admin mods or the admins to enforce them.
What about language rules? We need admins to make sure that the server is clean and acceptable. And if people could just have a clean mouth, we wouldn't need admins to enforce language rules.

Quote:
Originally posted by Amidala from Chop Shop
(sorry TK) ... or this (sorry Master William):
You act like being an honor admins is something to be ashamed of.
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Old 12-14-2003, 12:14 AM   #117
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Quote:
Originally posted by TK8252MJL
You act like being an honor admins is something to be ashamed of.
Couldn't agree more.

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Old 12-14-2003, 12:16 AM   #118
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Quote:
Originally posted by Amidala from Chop Shop
Couldn't agree more.
Do I and Master William seem very abusive?
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Old 12-14-2003, 12:37 AM   #119
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Quote:
Originally posted by TK8252MJL
Do I and Master William seem very abusive?
Not at all, that's not what I meant.

I am sure there were East German border guards at the Berlin Wall who were nice people (as I am sure you and Master William are) and who were fair and even handed and never actually shot any of their own countrymen who were trying to escape. Doesn't change the fact that they were helping to support an oppressive totalitarian system, and that they lost their "jobs" when the Wall came down, and had to go back to being average Joes (or Karls in their case).

Of course, I am exaggerating to make a point, the most abusive admin in a computer game is nothing compared to the horrors the people who lived under Soviet domination had to endure. My apologies to anyone who lived through that or had relatives who did.

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Old 12-14-2003, 12:41 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally posted by Amidala from Chop Shop
I am sure there were East German border guards at the Berlin Wall who were nice people (as I am sure you and Master William are) and who were fair and even handed and never actually shot any of their own countrymen who were trying to escape. Doesn't change the fact that they were helping to support an oppressive totalitarian system, and that they lost their "jobs" when the Wall came down, and had to go back to being average Joes (or Karls in their case).
LOL, good one! I think I just got pwned...

BUT... we're not bent on dominating the gaming community, we're just trying to host a decent (honorable) server.

Arg, am I sounding communist?
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