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Old 12-14-2003, 12:03 AM   #121
Amidala from Chop Shop
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Quote:
Originally posted by TK8252MJL
LOL, good one! I think I just got pwned...

BUT... we're not bent on dominating the gaming community, we're just trying to host a decent (honorable) server.

Arg, am I sounding communist?
TK, if there have to be honor servers and admins, I wish they could all be like you.

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Old 12-14-2003, 02:28 AM   #122
Kurgan
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One last Force Long Post my friends, once more...

Quote:
Originally posted by TK8252MJL
The Jedi Knight series games are great, and those RP games are no where near as good.
My point was they are MUCH BETTER for Role Playing than JA or JK2 can ever be.

How many times in a Role Playing Game have you been "lamed" by somebody with your saber down for example?

The fact is that in Role Playing games people KNOW they are there to role play, and so the "shenanagins" that go on the supposedly require abusive admin commands and honor codes don't come up.

The RPG and h0n0r d00dz are trying to force a Square JA FPS Peg into a round Honor RPG hole.

And while they do it, they're pissing off all the people who are (rightly) trying to play the game the way it was designed.

Quote:
No, it's just that RPers want to do different things, rather than just what the game is meant for.
My point exactly. They want to do different things, rather than just what the game is meant for.

That's the crux of the whole argument. And that would be enough, but then there is the fact that many of them try to force their unorthodox treatment of the game onto others.

Basically "H0n0r d00dz" I consider to merely be "RPG lite."

They want to pretend to be honorable samurai or role play being Jedi and doing nothing but duel, in non-dueling gametypes. They want to only die from things that look "cool" rather than from the messy, sometimes random kills that occur in a complex video game like JA/JK2.

Not every kill can be 'cinematic.' And yet, if they get killed by anything but the most basic of saber attacks when they are fully ready and after much bowing, they cry "Lamer!"

Quote:
Wrong... once again, not ALL honor players have this idea to take over the gaming community.
No, but thanks to the widespread (ab)use of Admin Mods with amlaming, this has gotten far easier. And thus a minority of folks continue to erode the very fabric of the gaming community with their nonesense.


Quote:
So who says the game must be played exactly how it was intended for? Please answer me that.
The developers of the game (Raven Software) for one. LucasArts & Activision who planned, financied, liscensed or otherwise promoted and sold the game for another.

And any player with common sense!

If some smart person developed and "RPG Total Conversion Mod" for JA and everybody was playing that, that'd be different. But instead we get half measures like admin mods that on the surface look like the regular game, but in practice are used to enforce petty and arbitrary rules that kill competative play.

Quote:
People can have fun in their own way. For some people, fighting in real competitions is fun. For others, honorable play is fun.
The trouble is these folks seem to be determined to make sure that NOBODY ELSE can have fun but them. (Guess which group I'm talking about? Hint: It starts with an "H")


Let's use another analogy. Let's say some people like to watch television programs on their televisions. Other people like to fill their televisions with peanut butter.

Then let's say the peanut butter filler people break into people's houses and dump cans of Peter Pan into their neighbor's sets and stage angry demonstrations in front of the houses of others demanding they put the yummy spread into their boxes.

Then let's say peanut butter manufacturer's start including tool boxes with their nut spread jars that feature instructions on how to pry open a tv set and put the butter inside it.

Television viewers, angry at the abuse of both a wholesome snack spread and the ruin of many entertainment devices, stage a protest against the Peanut butter junkies.

They even petition the Peanut Butter makers to stop including tool sets and tv-buttering instructions with their jars.

Quote:
MULTIPLE DUELZ pWnZ j00!!!!!!!!!!11111
No argument there. The trouble is, it seems this is less focused on and the "wait in line while emoting and amsleeping" is the norm, even among admin mod users.

Quote:
Where I play we never wait in line to duel. But like in this mod, JAR, amlaming was taken out. Commands like slap, slay, punish, bunny, etc. are not needed.
No argument there.


Quote:
This is because you play differently than the honor folks. YOU don't need rules and admin commands because you have a REAL FFA server.
The trouble is, a lot of people can't host their own servers, and therefore they rely on us to provide them with real gaming servers, not honor or RPG servers. If admin mods with abusive commands continue to spread, these folks won't have anywhere to play.

And it's a pity because if it weren't for them there would be no game to begin with. JA and JK2 were not made for RPG players and h0n0r d00dz. They were designed for FPS gamers who liked Star Wars! (*surprise!*)

Quote:
Amlame commands are BAD parts of admin mods. That's why cHoSeN oNe has taken them out!
And rightly so, amen to that.

Quote:
There is no point in amlame commands. And I never said there was.
Okay, I was getting the impression that you, like many other apologists for honor/RPG was saying that they were necessary to "keep order" and "make people obey the rules."

If you weren't, I'm sorry I misjudged you.

Quote:
All admins have their own rules, some have honor codes, others don't.
Right, but if the admin mods they use are setup to enforce "honor codes" by bully-like means, that's bad for everyone.

Quote:
Well cHoSeN oNe has seen the light, but we still have to get those others to see it!
Agreed.

Quote:
cHoSeN oNe is not releasing his source code, I think he's doing a great job trying to prevent admin abuse.
Agreed.


Quote:
I agree. Unload the gun first, such as cHoSeN oNe has done.
Well I would say don't give them the gun at all. By keeping it closed source and not including the commands he's effectively done that. The only controversial parts that remain are sleep and (IIRC) stuff like mute, which can still be abused, but not on the level of the other stuff.

So maybe he's giving them nerf guns instead of real ones, and that's an immense improvment.

Quote:
I've already started spreading the word to boycott abusive mods and commands. I've started right in my own clan forums.
You rock!


Btw, Amidala, your boycott post was dead on, nice job. I won't quote it here because this post is already way too long. ; )


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Old 12-14-2003, 02:53 AM   #123
TK-8252
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Re: One last Force Long Post my friends, once more...

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
That's the crux of the whole argument. And that would be enough, but then there is the fact that many of them try to force their unorthodox treatment of the game onto others.
This is true. But remember, I've said it many times... not all honor players try to spread it like an iron curtain.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
They want to pretend to be honorable samurai or role play being Jedi and doing nothing but duel, in non-dueling gametypes. They want to only die from things that look "cool" rather than from the messy, sometimes random kills that occur in a complex video game like JA/JK2.
Hmm... not where I play.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
Not every kill can be 'cinematic.' And yet, if they get killed by anything but the most basic of saber attacks when they are fully ready and after much bowing, they cry "Lamer!"
Hmm... not where I play.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
The developers of the game (Raven Software) for one. LucasArts & Activision who planned, financied, liscensed or otherwise promoted and sold the game for another.
Did they ever say we *can't* play other than how they developed the game for?

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
If some smart person developed and "RPG Total Conversion Mod" for JA and everybody was playing that, that'd be different. But instead we get half measures like admin mods that on the surface look like the regular game, but in practice are used to enforce petty and arbitrary rules that kill competative play.
Well here's the thing. As soon as you join an "honor style" server, you get this big message that pops up on your screen that will clearly state the rules. Now if someone would bother to read it, they'd know the rules, and follow them. And if someone disagrees with a server rule, they are always welcome to disconnect.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
The trouble is these folks seem to be determined to make sure that NOBODY ELSE can have fun but them. (Guess which group I'm talking about? Hint: It starts with an "H")
BULL****! Pure bull****. We play as we want, and you guys play as you want.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
Let's use another analogy. Let's say some people like to watch television programs on their televisions. Other people like to fill their televisions with peanut butter.

Then let's say the peanut butter filler people break into people's houses and dump cans of Peter Pan into their neighbor's sets and stage angry demonstrations in front of the houses of others demanding they put the yummy spread into their boxes.

Then let's say peanut butter manufacturer's start including tool boxes with their nut spread jars that feature instructions on how to pry open a tv set and put the butter inside it.

Television viewers, angry at the abuse of both a wholesome snack spread and the ruin of many entertainment devices, stage a protest against the Peanut butter junkies.

They even petition the Peanut Butter makers to stop including tool sets and tv-buttering instructions with their jars.
LOL!

Okay, first of all, this is a terrible example.

Invading someone's house to rip apart their TV and fill it with peanut butter gets you arrested. But ripping apart your own TV and filling it with peanut butter is completely fine! So if you're going to fill your server with honorable codes and rules you have every damn right to do so! But going into someone else's server and filling it with honorable codes is NOT right.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
The trouble is, a lot of people can't host their own servers, and therefore they rely on us to provide them with real gaming servers, not honor or RPG servers. If admin mods with abusive commands continue to spread, these folks won't have anywhere to play.
Ahh... kinda like communism ain't it?

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
Okay, I was getting the impression that you, like many other apologists for honor/RPG was saying that they were necessary to "keep order" and "make people obey the rules."

If you weren't, I'm sorry I misjudged you.
Apology accepted. Just ask Amidala! She can vouch for me.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
Right, but if the admin mods they use are setup to enforce "honor codes" by bully-like means, that's bad for everyone.
Slap, slay, punish, and bunny are evil.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
You rock!
You just found that out?!

Hehe
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Old 12-14-2003, 12:56 PM   #124
g//plaZma
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Re: Re: One last Force Long Post my friends, once more...

Quote:
Originally posted by TK8252MJL
This is true. But remember, I've said it many times... not all honor players try to spread it like an iron curtain.
Nope, not all but enough.

Quote:
Hmm... not where I play.
I've seen it happen a lot.

Quote:
Did they ever say we *can't* play other than how they developed the game for?
Nope, but a lot of "honorable" players come to non-honor servers and try to enforce their laws on them. You guys can play how you want to, but please at least clearly mark your servers.

Quote:
Well here's the thing. As soon as you join an "honor style" server, you get this big message that pops up on your screen that will clearly state the rules. Now if someone would bother to read it, they'd know the rules, and follow them. And if someone disagrees with a server rule, they are always welcome to disconnect.
You can't guarantee that someone will read them. I've had MotD's up on servers i'd admin and they'd clearly state that whining is not allowed, neither is use of the word "lamer" or anything remotely related to "honor." Guess what? I still got little honorable jedi missionaries coming in and trying to preech their honor religion or whatever.

Quote:
BULL****! Pure bull****. We play as we want, and you guys play as you want.
That's assuming none of you come onto our servers and try to make it an honorable server or whatever. And vice-versa.

Quote:
LOL!

Okay, first of all, this is a terrible example.

Invading someone's house to rip apart their TV and fill it with peanut butter gets you arrested. But ripping apart your own TV and filling it with peanut butter is completely fine! So if you're going to fill your server with honorable codes and rules you have every damn right to do so! But going into someone else's server and filling it with honorable codes is NOT right.
He was referring to going onto other peoples servers and trying to enforce honor onto it with a funny example.


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Old 12-14-2003, 05:41 PM   #125
TK-8252
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Re: Re: Re: One last Force Long Post my friends, once more...

Quote:
Originally posted by g//plaZma
I've seen it happen a lot.
Excuse me, not where I play.

Quote:
Originally posted by g//plaZma
Nope, but a lot of "honorable" players come to non-honor servers and try to enforce their laws on them. You guys can play how you want to, but please at least clearly mark your servers.
Clicking on the server info button in the server selection list, you can see if the server is running an admin mod or not. If it is running an admin mod, most likely it'll have some kind of code.

Quote:
Originally posted by g//plaZma
You can't guarantee that someone will read them. I've had MotD's up on servers i'd admin and they'd clearly state that whining is not allowed, neither is use of the word "lamer" or anything remotely related to "honor." Guess what? I still got little honorable jedi missionaries coming in and trying to preech their honor religion or whatever.
That's... pretty sad.

Quote:
Originally posted by g//plaZma
That's assuming none of you come onto our servers and try to make it an honorable server or whatever. And vice-versa.
Ask Amidala... do I ever spread honor in her server?

Quote:
Originally posted by g//plaZma
He was referring to going onto other peoples servers and trying to enforce honor onto it with a funny example.
Yes, I knew what he was saying. But here in the states, breaking into someone's house to destroy their TV gets you arrested.
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Old 12-14-2003, 05:51 PM   #126
Master William
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I'm an admin at different servers, from Siege servers with no rules to FFA servers with honor-rules. You can't blame me for what server I am an admin at. I am simply asked to administrate a place, so I do it. Don't tell me you wouldn't administrate a honor server, that would sound so childish.

I play all ways possible that JA has to offer. FFA, Siege, honors, no honors... Well, the list goes on.


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Old 12-14-2003, 06:16 PM   #127
Amidala from Chop Shop
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Quote:
Originally posted by Master William
I'm an admin at different servers, from Siege servers with no rules to FFA servers with honor-rules. You can't blame me for what server I am an admin at. I am simply asked to administrate a place, so I do it. Don't tell me you wouldn't administrate a honor server, that would sound so childish.

I play all ways possible that JA has to offer. FFA, Siege, honors, no honors... Well, the list goes on.
OMG, he just can't help himself!

Master William, you have frequently told people to stop saying the same thing over and over again. We know you are an "admin", OK? Perhaps you skipped over my post on the previous page. To save you the trouble of paging back, I'll quote myself here (to avoid saying the same thing over in a different way myself).

Just imagine if tomorrow there were no more admin mods and subadmins. OMG, Master William would lose his "job" and have to be just like everyone else. He couldn't say "I am an admin" anymore. That's what a lot of this is really about.

Quote:
Originally posted by TK8252MJL
With proper administration, it's possible. And if people could just follow rules, there would be no need for admins or mods. The admin mods are created to handle people who have an issue with following rules.
And if there are no added-on made-up rules (to speak of) there is even less need for abusive admin mods or the admins to enforce them.

It seems to me that some of those who most ardently and at great length defend honor codes, rules, and admin mods are those who, like Soviet apparatchiks

ap·pa·ra·tchik ( P ) Pronunciation Key (äp-rächk)
n. pl. ap·pa·ra·tchiks or ap·pa·ra·tchi·ki (-ch-k)
1. A member of a Communist apparat.
2. An unquestioningly loyal subordinate, especially of a political leader or organization.


have the most to lose from the elimination of an oppressive totalitarian system: those "admins" (really subadmins because in most cases they don't pay for\host the server AND have rcon access AND have FTP access to server files if it's a hosted server) who would lose their "jobs" and have to go back to being regular old players if there were no more honor codes or admin mods.

For example, someone like this (sorry TK)
Quote:
Originally posted by TK8252MJL
I just want to be an admin because it would be cool to have infinite power over people. Not that i'd be a power abuser, it's just that I want to be incharge.

BTW, there are servers that are meant for all out war, so join those.
or this (sorry Master William):
Quote:
Originally posted by Master William
Even if they are, I am admin at that server (it's a gameservers.net server) so I don't have to worry about getting kicked or chased or stuff like that.
Quote:
Originally posted by Master William
I do like it, but I've never seen such a complicated... yet whiny... community for a game. I see it as a fight- and chat arena, sometimes I just screw fighting and I just watch other people fight, and I just sit and relax in a corner or something. This of course being at the server I am admin at, of course. (This meaning all gameservers.net servers)
Quote:
Originally posted by Master William
Hmm... Gameservers.net FFA (03) is the server I am admin at. (i'm an admin for gameservers.net), and it's the one i play at mostly I guess.
Quote:
Originally posted by Master William
Nothing annoys me with lamers. It used to, in my very best JK2 old days, I used to run around screaming 'lamer! OMG!!!' etc.

Anyways, what DOES annoy me with JA is when you have set your own server rules (or when I'm admin at the gameservers.net servers, which I am) and people just jump in and break the rules, even though I press the + key (bind + key say ^4Breaking these rules will get you kicked.... etc).

Otherwise, I'm fine with it. Just hate the rule breakers who can't read the chat messages when it's necessary.
Quote:
Originally posted by Master William
If they do that ''saber off'' trick against you, you should kill them for that. A guy at the server I'm administrating (gameservers.net server) ....
Quote:
Originally posted by Master William
I understand how it is being an admin at those servers. I am an admin at the public gameservers.net servers, and heck do I get tired of telling people the same thing. Retards run around breaking the server rules, totally ignoring my damn spammage of the rules (I have to spam if they don't stop it), and I end up warning them 2-3 times. They don't seem to give a ****, so I kick them. They come back asking why they were kicked. I explain that he/she must follow the server rules, or get kicked. He/she starts cussing, and disconnects.

But hey, even if you wrote it in the sky with smoke, they wouldn't understand it, because they would rather scratch their asses instead of looking up.

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Old 12-14-2003, 06:31 PM   #128
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Cut a bit of slack on him, he likes to be admin and so do you amidala from chop shop with the 100 chop shops server ips in your sig

I agree with him it beeing a chat and fight server, not a star wars galaxies server with experience points


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Old 12-14-2003, 06:32 PM   #129
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lol thats one hell of a way to prove a point. Sorry I know this is a serious discussion / arguement, but that made me laugh as the examples kept rolling in.


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Old 12-14-2003, 07:00 PM   #130
Master William
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What's your point? I spam the fact that I'm an admin too much? And the servers I play at don't use a single admin mod


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Old 12-14-2003, 07:20 PM   #131
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Re: Re: Re: Re: One last Force Long Post my friends, once more...

Quote:
Originally posted by TK8252MJL
Excuse me, not where I play.
You've made that point already but jk3files isn't the only "honor" server.

Quote:
Clicking on the server info button in the server selection list, you can see if the server is running an admin mod or not. If it is running an admin mod, most likely it'll have some kind of code.
We weren't using one.

Quote:
Ask Amidala... do I ever spread honor in her server?
No, and I wasn't accusing you of anything like that. I'm talking about the "honor" community in gerneral.

Quote:
Yes, I knew what he was saying. But here in the states, breaking into someone's house to destroy their TV gets you arrested.
Maybe but how does arrest relate to the game? BTW, you won't get arrested for just breaking their TV, the arrest comes from breaking into their house.


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Old 12-14-2003, 07:32 PM   #132
Amidala from Chop Shop
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Quote:
Originally posted by Master William
What's your point? I spam the fact that I'm an admin too much?
Yes.
Quote:
Originally posted by Master William
And the servers I play at don't use a single admin mod
Yet. When the real admins (the ones who, as I do, actually pay for\host the servers, configure them, and maintain them) chose an admin mod (if any), I hope you can persuade them to use a less abuse-prone one like Jedi Academy Reloaded or the next version of xMod2. Or at least disable the abuse-prone commands in other admin mods so subadmins won't be tempted to abuse players.

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Old 12-14-2003, 08:41 PM   #133
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Quote:
Excuse me, not where I play.
Want a cookie?

Quote:
Not every kill can be 'cinematic.' And yet, if they get killed by anything but the most basic of saber attacks when they are fully ready and after much bowing, they cry "Lamer!"
These are probably the same people that want a crowd around their deathbed because they were an honorable person and their touch meant they were gifted or something... Want the truth? I'm borrowing this from a movie I have a paper on due Tuesday.

Quote:
Suppose nothing happens to you. Suppose you lived out your whole life and nothing happens you never meet anybody you never become anything and finally you die in one of those New York deaths which nobody notices for two weeks until the smell drifts into the hallway.
Guessing where that quote came from gets you another cookie.
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Old 12-14-2003, 09:13 PM   #134
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Quote:
Yes, I knew what he was saying. But here in the states, breaking into someone's house to destroy their TV gets you arrested.
That is true, and you know what? It's NOT ILLEGAL TO INVADE SOMEBODY'S SERVER AND DEMAND THEY HONOR (no pun intended) YOUR PERSONAL HONOR CODE AND CALL THEM A LAMER!

Breaking into somebody's home is llegal, but it's not wrong merely because it's illegal.

It's rude, disrespectful, hateful, etc.


Likewise, invading somebody's server and harassing them or their guests is not illegal, but it's similarly rude, disrespectful and hateful.

If you want an admin to change his rules, here's an idea, EMAIL HIM/HER or otherwise contact him/her and talk about it in a civilized manner.

Unfortunately large numbers of honor dudes don't get it, they invade public servers and use mob rule and profanity to try to force their beliefs on others.

Admin Mods with their amslap commands seem bourne of this same "angry honor dude" mentality. That's why I link the two. Honor is a more widespread problem, but I can ignore it (except on servers with voting enabled), however Admin Mods I can't, because a server that has them has the power to humiliate me at the drop of the hat, for no reason at all.

It's as if they were made by some honor guys so they could have "revenge" on all the "lamers" who ignored them. Yet the trouble is the admin mods don't care if you're a lamer or not, they just give you the power to BE a lamer, unopposed.

Ironic, isn't it, that the supposedly "honorable" players and admins are also the first ones to resort to callvote-kick and the use of amslap/sleep/slay/kickban when they encounter somebody who has different ideas? Doesn't sound so honorable to me...


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Old 12-14-2003, 10:36 PM   #135
Master William
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Quote:
Originally posted by Amidala from Chop Shop
Yet. When the real admins (the ones who, as I do, actually pay for\host the servers, configure them, and maintain them) chose an admin mod (if any), I hope you can persuade them to use a less abuse-prone one like Jedi Academy Reloaded or the next version of xMod2. Or at least disable the abuse-prone commands in other admin mods so subadmins won't be tempted to abuse players.
We aren't using any admin mod, just original JA, as I said. There are two ranks of admins (usually), and a ''real'' admin is not one of them. And I am telling them to use JA Reloaded, because it has only necessary commands.

And all the times I said I was an admin was necessary to be said because my otherwise my post would appear a little bit confusing.

I'm just a normal admin at GameServers.net, what do you want me to do? Break the rules and edit the configs? Pay for a public server? I think the words you are looking for can be either dedicated or better, not real.
A real admin is just one who doesn't abuse and is good at doing his/hers stuff, like kicking the right persons, telling people the rules, etc.

No offense intended, but it's just annoying how you just stormed in and started calling me a bad admin and that I should stop spamming it, totally off-topic.


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Old 12-14-2003, 10:43 PM   #136
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@ Kurgan: I stumbled upon people who called me ''lamer" in a no rules server. The MOTD clearly showed the rules such as ''The word 'laming' is not recognized here'' or ''this is a no rules server, so don't scream the word 'lamer' here''.

Still, the admin told me to shut up for some reason when I told the honorists to read the rules, and they still went: ''lamer! we make the rules!''

Hah, my and my friend at school even use the word as a joke, we laugh our butts off when we hear somebody in JA going "lamer!".


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Old 12-14-2003, 11:07 PM   #137
Amidala from Chop Shop
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Quote:
Originally posted by Master William
No offense intended, but it's just annoying how you just stormed in and started calling me a bad admin and that I should stop spamming it, totally off-topic.
I never called you a bad admin. I've never seen you doing it so I have no idea whether you are good, bad, or indifferent. I will assume you are good.

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Old 12-18-2003, 02:27 AM   #138
Kurgan
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Quote:
@ Kurgan: I stumbled upon people who called me ''lamer" in a no rules server. The MOTD clearly showed the rules such as ''The word 'laming' is not recognized here'' or ''this is a no rules server, so don't scream the word 'lamer' here''.

Still, the admin told me to shut up for some reason when I told the honorists to read the rules, and they still went: ''lamer! we make the rules!''

Hah, my and my friend at school even use the word as a joke, we laugh our butts off when we hear somebody in JA going "lamer!".
Sadly, there are always going to be people like that.

My guess is that either the admin was away, or there was a subadmin in position (that maybe let his power go to his head now that his boss was away).

I read the logs from my server and I've occasionally seen funny things, like people pretending to be the admin (for some reason people assume that a high scorer or somebody who talks a lot is automatically the admin!) or people yelling about honor and trying to convince everyone that they're right. Then I've had people get pissing angry at bots and yell stuff at them.

Finally, I've had a few people defend my lack of rules and shout down honor players on my server (which is fine by me, muahhahaha!).

That's the thing about h0n0rz d00dz.. they think their rules are universal (or they think they "ought to be") and try to spread their propaganda everywhere, even where it's obviously unwanted.

And they accuse US of "laming" and "ruining the fun."
Hypocrites... ; p


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