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View Poll Results: The NJO was...
the best EU story ever told!!! 5 17.24%
pretty good; I enjoyed reading it... 11 37.93%
just okay. Not the best, but not too shabby... 4 13.79%
not my favorite. Could have been a lot better 1 3.45%
pretty bad. It sucked, the authors sucked, I didn't like reading it... 1 3.45%
the absolute worst thing that could have ever happened to the EU!!! 7 24.14%
Voters: 29. You may not vote on this poll


Thread: NJO brawl...
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Old 03-05-2004, 03:11 PM   #1
Master_Keralys
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NJO brawl...

Okay, since there seems to be considerable contention over the NJO - as there always has been - I figured I'd start a poll and general discussion over its ups and downs now that everybody's had a few months to recover from The Unifying Force.

I personally loved the NJO. It was a grander, more epic story than anything except the movies themselves and maybe the Sith Wars 4 millenia previously. It did have its downsides, though: the deaths of 2 major characters and the Yuuzhan Vong themselves not being conventional baddies from SW. However, I felt this was definitely outweighed by the fantastic job done by the series creators as a whole. I had my issues with certain books - I didn't think Vector Prime really felt like SW that much, and until Balance Point the series didn't truly hit its stride. Since then, though, I've liked every book except Dark Journey. I was enthralled by Traitor and loved both Destiny's Way and the paperbacks that followed it. Star by Star and The Unifying Force were both excellent books in general: they had great plots, action, and pacing; both equal Zahn in my book. Now, argue with me, people...


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Old 03-05-2004, 04:42 PM   #2
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I thought the NJO was pretty good. Not great. But better than many of the earlier books. They threw some jedi philosohpy curveballs with the vong, showed the characters from earlier novels and movies evolving and there some truly amazing moments. On the downside, there were a lot of false trails laid I think. The authors didn't build off each other's ideas and plots enough. They needed to colaborate more and they didn't. But otherwise it was a fun rid while it lasted. Traitor and TUF especially.


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Old 03-06-2004, 06:20 AM   #3
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The only thing I didn't like about NJO series was the Vong but once it was explained why they were not in the Force it made sence a little.







************ SPOILERS TO NJO *****************

(Just a friendly warning just to make sure but by now everyone should have read most of NJO)











I've been thinking, I know in the Sith/Jedi war started by Exar Kun that Ulic Qel-Droma was blinded to the Force by Nomi Sunrider. Now in NJO it said that the Vong Homeworld had stripped the Force from the entire race. What I have been wondering is how different was these two techniques to use and preform?



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Old 03-06-2004, 03:28 PM   #4
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***Heavy NJO Spoilers to follow***
Just figured I'd give you a warning...
















***
Actually, that was one of my first thoughts on learning that the Vong weren't in the Force: "Wait, that sounds like Ulic Qel-Droma or Callista." I dismissed it, though, because they were only kept from their ability to touch the Force, others could still sense them in it. So the biggest differences would be that, firstly, the Vong were stripped as an entire species - quite a difference in scale, and secondly, that they were completely removed from its presence: even Jedi couldn't sense them until Anakin, and later to a fuller extent Jacen and Tahiri developed their Vongsenses. So that's a massive difference in terms of what was actually done. It's actually the likely source of the genetic difference in them and their technology (which is what made Alpha Red possible, as you'll recall). I'd like to see future literature explore this point further...


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Old 03-08-2004, 12:43 AM   #5
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Re: NJO brawl...

Quote:
Originally posted by Master_Keralys
\It did have its downsides, though: the deaths of 2 major characters and the Yuuzhan Vong themselves not being conventional baddies from SW.
I actually enjoyed these aspects of the NJO. The deaths added a sense and emphasis of seriousness and a "this is not a game" factor to Star Wars. Also, even though the Vong weren't really that original (Borg), in the context of SW they brought something new,dark, and gothic into the saga. The NJO ended the repetitiveness of the usual "super weapon or dark jedi of the month" storyline and brought a fresh, new style into SW, and I think this change has been for the better. Those who dislike the NJO should embrace this new and exciting direction SW has taken and let go of their conventional, romantic style of SW. I also loved the epic feel of the NJO, though it was kind of frustrating to wait so long for the next part of the story.

9/10
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Old 03-08-2004, 10:11 AM   #6
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The NJO was out of the ballpark and scoring homeruns.

Better than the usual overused storyline of the month, and it was dark. Something the normal books lacked. I enjoyed reading it a lot, but like wassup said, it took too darn long for them to release the next book!
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Old 03-08-2004, 12:10 PM   #7
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NJO impressed me because of its sheer scope, and the fact that it was a great feat of planning and execution of behalf of LFL, the publishers and authors. Bravo ! For its detractors, all I can say is the SW universe *needed* something new ; clones of old villains, evil clones of good characters and stupid superweapons were turning it into a farce......


oh and BTW, did I mention 'Traitor' , the greatest EU novel of all time(IMO)....


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Old 03-08-2004, 02:55 PM   #8
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Not the best. I like the older ones where they have lightsaber battles and not lightsaber-against-yuuzhan vong staff-fights. That's what really made the whole thing boring.


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Old 03-09-2004, 05:48 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Miko_lover
Not the best. I like the older ones where they have lightsaber battles and not lightsaber-against-yuuzhan vong staff-fights. That's what really made the whole thing boring.
Boring? How are shape-shifting venom-spitting organic weapons boring?
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Old 03-09-2004, 03:37 PM   #10
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They're just not authentically Star Wars-ish enough for me.


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Old 03-10-2004, 03:25 AM   #11
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Truly great series for me.
This was coming from a dying fan who had just seen a lump of crap (Episode 1) and was rapidly losing interest in the whole Star Wars universe.
Read through Vector Prime in 2002, became shocked and sucked into the wave of the NJO. I stuck with the series until Agents of Chaos, but then got up to date with Rebirth and read every NJO book from there on (excluding Dark Journey).

As it has been said, the Yuuzhan Vong were inventive-original antagonists for the Jedi. The Imperial Remnant/Sith issue had been beaten to a strip and was of no more use; the Vong were the only answer.
Not only did the NJO open up the doorway to what really could lie in the other galaxies of the Star Wars Universe, but it added that darker/realistic feel to the entire franchise. We no longer had the 'feel-good' atmosphere where the central characters were protected in a bubble of immortality (which Han Solo brings up in his time of grief ), but real people forced into real conditions of warfare.

The NJO (IMO) was the best depiction of where the Jedi were headed after the Clone Wars, the Jedi Purge, their Resurrection with the Academy, etc. It clearly showed how times had changed, constantly reshaping the image and boundaries of the Jedi through novels such as Traitor and Star by Star

To me, the NJO will always kick-ass




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Old 03-10-2004, 04:02 PM   #12
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To me it was a logical development from the Bantam era series and it allowed for a further development of the Jedi order; it is now the next logical step of where it's been evolving to since the prequels. It's interesting that, of all the old order Jedi, only Yoda seemed to truly emphasize the Unifying Force; all others (think Qui-gon, for example) emphasized the Living Force. This is what Luke had to learn to master in order to win the war against the Empire. But the Jedi needed to return to their origin and find their place in the Unifying Force. I think it's awesome.

I find its depth amazing and inspiring; it's rather remarkable to see a series that huge, to be honest. And the deaths of major characters were disheartening, but I loved how they moved the story; they were good things, in my opinion.


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Old 03-11-2004, 10:32 AM   #13
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Yes, considering what they were fighting for, keeping the sacrifices of family and friends in the back of their minds, it must have been something to stand out there on the battlefields




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Old 03-11-2004, 03:04 PM   #14
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i don't like NJO at all.

its too star trekkie for my taste.
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Old 03-11-2004, 03:16 PM   #15
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I hate the NJO with a fiery passion that transcends time and space.

I haven't the words to describe it. If crap could crap, then that crap's crap would feel greatly superior and have a swelling sense of pride, when held in juxtaposition with the NJO.
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Old 03-12-2004, 05:30 AM   #16
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Oh thanks for that ummm... descriptive comment Rhett, I just love it when people are so precise and constructive.

Good point Keralys. From what I've read, which is very little, It does seem like Yoda was really the only one who emphasised on the Unifying Force in the period of time from the last Sith War on Ruusan to the NJO era.



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Old 03-12-2004, 02:51 PM   #17
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Exactly. Even before that, though, the Jedi were losing their touch with it. Fewer and fewer were focusing on it even from the era of Exar Kun onward, as the Jedi became more and more entangled with the affairs of the Republic. I think it'll be interesting to see where the characters go from here.

Rhett: nice post. Would you mind explaining your reasons why you hate the NJO instead of just saying it's crap, crap, and more crap? B/c I'd like to see a little reasonable debate over it instead of just slamming, you know? And most of the NJO haters never really say why they hate it; they just call it crap.


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Old 03-12-2004, 03:25 PM   #18
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The Vong do not fit in the feel of the star wars universe. At all.

It's blatantly obvious that the people who conceived the idea of the NJO really didn't have a clue what star wars is all about. They saw it simply as another science fiction story. It's not. Just because it's background is set in space does not make it a sci fi story. They totally lost site of this. Rather than examine the original theme stick with that theme they started throwing out ideas just because they sounded neat, more than actually capturing the feel of the films.

"Hey, I know what we can do! Lets make some aliens from another galaxy who are unstoppable and have absolutely nothing to do with the rest of the universe! Yeah, that'll be great! And real creative too!"


They feel that telling "darker" stories and killing of our beloved heroes will somehow make it more mature and meaningful. Awful idea. Why not set the story in an entirely new era instead trying to totally change the feeling of the one already set up?

What if someone wrote a followup to LotR and it was about people who came in boats who could not be harmed by arrows and were immune to the effects of wizards and magic rings? It'd be the same damn crap that the NJO is.

I want them to create something original within the Star Wars universe already set up. Not make a totally new one to try and spice things up and draw in the younger folk.

The NJO is pulling Star Wars down to Trek's level with, "Trek" par plots, villians (bio-borg) and story arcs. Not to mention a dead wookie, dammit!

So, yes, I hate the NJO with a fiery passion that transcends time and space and so should others. That's all I have to say on this subject.
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Old 03-13-2004, 01:34 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Boba Rhett

"Hey, I know what we can do! Lets make some aliens from another galaxy who are unstoppable and have absolutely nothing to do with the rest of the universe! Yeah, that'll be great! And real creative too!"
Rhett in the EU forum, preposterous, outrageous, outlandish !

this is one of those times I wish I could give you the boot Rhett, Obviously not having read the NJO, you have no inkling, or perhaps are not acknowledging the fact the Yuuzhan Vong's absence in the force has a cause and reason..... it is a huge central plot point for the whole NJO series...

All of those characters whining that NJO is trek-like, perhaps you may acquiesce that it is just difficult to write sci-fi over a greater scope of time, than a mere 2 hour movie. How about *you* try it hmmm ??

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Old 03-13-2004, 07:11 PM   #20
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Give me the boot? Over books? Calm down.

But I don't want to try it. I'm not a writer, I'm a consumer. Your point is totally moot. It's like when contestants on American Idol yell at the judges at tell them to try singing. The fact is, they aren't there to sing, they're just there to see if the singers suck or not. I'm not here to write, nor do I want to write. I'm just here to see if it sucks or not.

And the part about it being "difficult to write sci-fi over a great scope of time". What kind of excuse is that. If they can't cut it, perhaps they just shouldn't even be writing anymore.
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Old 03-14-2004, 09:02 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Boba Rhett
Give me the boot? Over books? Calm down.

But I don't want to try it. I'm not a writer, I'm a consumer. Your point is totally moot. It's like when contestants on American Idol yell at the judges at tell them to try singing. The fact is, they aren't there to sing, they're just there to see if the singers suck or not. I'm not here to write, nor do I want to write. I'm just here to see if it sucks or not.

And the part about it being "difficult to write sci-fi over a great scope of time". What kind of excuse is that. If they can't cut it, perhaps they just shouldn't even be writing anymore.
I shouldve added I j/k to that 'boot' bit, sorry chief ! What I find even more upsetting is that you admit to watching American Idol !

**Astro's confidence in Rhett's amazing powers take a body blow**

ah well, you dont like the NJO. I hope Ep3 will be able to sate your SW appetite, as the EU will be the only thing left after that..... :cry:


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Old 03-15-2004, 08:42 AM   #22
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i agree with Rhetts first post.. i hate NJO.....
i LOVE Wraith squadron tho



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Old 03-16-2004, 12:52 AM   #23
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NJO is THE REASON why i stopped reading the EU


it was just plain horrible, im sorry, but i agree with Rhett


it ruined Star Wars, which i did not think was possible


Quote:
It's blatantly obvious that the people who conceived the idea of the NJO really didn't have a clue what star wars is all about. They saw it simply as another science fiction story. It's not. Just because it's background is set in space does not make it a sci fi story. They totally lost site of this. Rather than examine the original theme stick with that theme they started throwing out ideas just because they sounded neat, more than actually capturing the feel of the films.


i could not put it in better words. oh wait, heres some NJO WAS ABSOLUTELY REPULSIVE







hmmmm if any of you hate me now.... well then,


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Old 03-16-2004, 01:45 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wraith 8
i agree with Rhetts first post.. i hate NJO.....
i LOVE Wraith squadron tho
NJO sucks.

The Rogues and the Wraiths rule \m/

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Old 03-16-2004, 11:12 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lynk Former
NJO sucks.

The Rogues and the Wraiths rule \m/
HELL YEAH!!!!



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Old 03-16-2004, 01:24 PM   #26
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meh, 'tis all good

the wraiths were great too
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Old 03-16-2004, 03:50 PM   #27
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Ah, but have you actually read all the way through the NJO, oh haters of it? Because what you come to understand is that it expands on what the universe already had, not changes it drastically in the end. Indeed, as Astro already pointed out, the relationship of the Yuuzhan Vong to what's already in the SW universe is one of the most important points of the NJO...

here's another thing: the universe can't stay the same, like it or not. Moreover, it is the same theme. The theme is still good v evil, courage v selfishness, etc. It's the same themes on a different background. And where the themes are different, remember, it would be a bad thing if every story had the same thing. Every story in any given universe can't, because then it's just stale (as the Bantam series books eventually became in many ways).

They're also writing a story that's actually larger in scope than that of the OT, just as the Sith Wars were larger than the OT - maybe no more important, but larger in scope. As such, they'll have different foci and different ideas in them. The themes of the Sith War were different, but I didn't here you complaining about them. And I think that you'd find, Rhett, that if you finished the series you'd be immensely satisfied with how the Vong tie in.

I'll gladly acknowledge that it had its down points. I hated Dark Journey, and I really don't even like Vector Prime very much. But it's set off by fantastic novels like Star by Star, Traitor (arguably the best SW novel ever written) and The Unifying Force. You guys who hate it haven't seen the whole picture. And that's your loss.


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Old 03-17-2004, 11:14 AM   #28
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there are a few points in the real world you have to consider.

People FEAR change. everything that is different then what they are used to scares people till hatred almost.

a working formula should not be changed. if coca cola would all of a sudden change their flavor.. ill bet you its gonna cost them.


i agree with a lot of your points ofcourse. but you have to realize that most of the EU readers are readers who LOVED the OT!. if you change the chars all of a sudden... they are gonna hate it.

my 2 cents



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Old 03-18-2004, 03:18 PM   #29
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A good point, of course. Luckily for them, though, the OT characters didn't really change that much except to get better and stronger. Thus, the OT people would love this, except they never gave it a chance beyond the first book or few. And the end of the series really brought the characters full circle. I honestly believe that, low points aside, those who didn't read it truly missed out.


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Old 03-19-2004, 01:32 AM   #30
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What I loved most about NJO was that it made the star wars universe evolve. I've heard so many peope who view star wars as an escape from reality get mad at the NJO series because it started to emulate one key aspect of reality. Change. Changes in the kinds of evils people face, the beliefs they embrace, and their understanding of their world. We got to see a maturing of a whole two generations of characters, some of whom we'd seen on film as kids. In the end I guess you just got to ask yourself, do you want an escape or are you willing to face the reality that NOTHING STAYS THE SAME.
Oh and traitor and TUF oh yeah were those books sweet! If you read about what a kick ass master Luke became your jaw would drop! Ahh I love feeling enthusiastic about good stories.


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Old 03-22-2004, 11:40 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wraith 8
there are a few points in the real world you have to consider.

People FEAR change. everything that is different then what they are used to scares people till hatred almost.

a working formula should not be changed. if coca cola would all of a sudden change their flavor.. ill bet you its gonna cost them.


i agree with a lot of your points ofcourse. but you have to realize that most of the EU readers are readers who LOVED the OT!. if you change the chars all of a sudden... they are gonna hate it.

my 2 cents
Well said ! Kudos to you too, Keralys !

Dont forget for a while the EU itself feared change too, so we had an endless procession of evil Warlords, a Grand Admiral who was soooo brilliant he was sent away during the Empires most desperate conflict (duh!).... and the occasional idiotic 'dark jedi', not to mention ridiculous superweapons...... no, EU needed a drastic change... thank the Maker it got one !

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Old 03-23-2004, 11:05 AM   #32
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well i think the corellian trilogy was nicely done... exciting.



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Old 03-27-2004, 09:44 PM   #33
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Yeah, I'm on The Final Prophecy. I've read every NJO book besides the two pointless e-books. The NJO series owns. It is the best. Vergere's telling of the Force not having a dark side really made me start thinking and enjoying the power of the dark side.
These books rock. I have read almost every Star Wars trilogy/duology/series that count:
Bounty Hunter Wars Trilogy
Corellian Trilogy
Dark Fleet Crisis Trilogy
Jedi Academy Trilogy
Thrawn Trilogy
Hand of Thrawn Duology
NJO Series
The New Rebellion
Cortship of Princess Leia
Jedi Apprentice Series
Jedi Quest Series
Boba Fett Series
Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter
All of the Journals
Tales from the New Republic
Tales from Jabba's Palace




- Former Star Wars: Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy, Star Wars: Battlefront, and Star Wars: Battlefront II modder. Used to go by the name "Majin Revan."
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Old 04-05-2004, 03:02 PM   #34
Master_Keralys
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Yeah, Vergere threw a serious twist into absolutely everything. But it was all cool in the end. Enjoy TUF; it's pretty sweet, trust me... almost my fav in the entire NJO. All the arguers seem to have disappeared in the face of irrefutable logic... to bad.


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Old 04-06-2004, 12:23 PM   #35
Sam Fisher
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Yeah, I have read almost all of the NJO books, and have liked em all All fairly written (an average), especially the last ones that I'm on right now ^^

Its just new, some people just don't like new.




stuck in an eternity of sunshine and chocolate.
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Old 04-07-2004, 02:05 AM   #36
Skinkie
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Quote:
Originally posted by majinrevan

These books rock. I have read almost every Star Wars trilogy/duology/series that count:
Bounty Hunter Wars Trilogy
Corellian Trilogy
Dark Fleet Crisis Trilogy
Jedi Academy Trilogy
Thrawn Trilogy
Hand of Thrawn Duology
NJO Series
The New Rebellion
Cortship of Princess Leia
Jedi Apprentice Series
Jedi Quest Series
Boba Fett Series
Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter
All of the Journals
Tales from the New Republic
Tales from Jabba's Palace

I notice you did not list the X-Wing sereis. You have a thing or two to learn about what series really matter.


Just because people think what I say don't make sense, doesn't mean I don't like popsicles.
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Old 04-07-2004, 02:40 AM   #37
El Sitherino
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I loved Darth Maul: ShadowHunter.
I usually stick to the comics though, I love tales of the jedi and the Darth Maul comics. >_>

I've kinda stayed out of EU for a while. I hated NJO, they killed off chewie for goodness sakes.


“This body is not me. I am not caught in this body.
I am life without limit.”
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Old 04-07-2004, 04:45 AM   #38
ET Warrior
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I read a lot of the NJO books. Like, 4 or 5 or 6? Maybe more, I dont remember, I read to the one past Traitor. But....I stopped. For a reason. And those reasons have been stated eloquently enough by Rhett that I needn't repeat.

Suffice to say, the NJO is not STAR WARS to me. I really hate the way they vong unrealistically went from being the absolute end-all badasses that nobody could kill, to an enemy that was relatively evenly matched with the republic. Furthermore, I pretty much just hate everything about the Vong. Their technology, the fact that they aren't even from the same galaxy strikes me as stupid, and so on and so forth.

Vergere also pisses me off. Worst. Character. Ever.



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Old 04-07-2004, 03:32 PM   #39
Astrotoy7
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Quote:
Originally posted by ET Warrior
...Vergere also pisses me off. Worst. Character. Ever.
ET ! Your regal title bears no authority the minute you are out of that murky mess of a swamp !

Too bad you dont like Vergere. She and Jacen are what *made* the NJO for me. I was really dreading the 'good guys are gonna win and everything will be alright' conclusion to the NJO, but what those two characters alone added has given it a momentum that has a great potential for future writers to explore

I love the NJO...... nah.....nah-nah....nah-nah! A pox to your kingdom sir !

mtfbwya


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Old 04-07-2004, 03:50 PM   #40
Master_Keralys
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Yeah, Vergere was a make-or-break for you in that series. But she also gave a lot of new ideas to the entire SW universe. And actually, if you finished the series, they got back to being the end-all bad guys who kicked some serious butt. Parity was only established for about 8 months of SW time, actually, before the Vong hit back with their own technological (or biological, if you will) improvements that rendered the Republic less than equal.

No offense, but I honestly don't believe Rhett did a very good job of stating much at all. I've never heard a reasonable I dislike the NJO because of such and such except yours and maybe two others, ET... everybody just says "It's unoriginal Borg **** and I hate it!"


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