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Old 03-25-2004, 06:15 AM   #41
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He is probably only calling it a political hero which makes sense.

Not all of us plagiarize Windu.....
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Old 03-25-2004, 10:43 PM   #42
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Just to get back to the random names....

I just think it sounds better for a hero to have a name. I didn't like the system in RoN, so I thought that we could just use WC3's system.

On the Jedi/soldier stuff.....

I say keep the Jedi. A normal soldier would be quite boring (IMO), as it would be quite like the officer. A jedi, on the other hand, has some potential as a "warrior hero". We saw at the end of Ep2 Windu and some other Jedi leading a squad of clones, so having a Jedi hero could fit with the movies.

And on WC3 mistakes...

Blizzard always said that WC3 was an RPS, not an RTS. Therefore, heroes do have a lot of importance. However, that doesn't mean it's just a clicking fest. WC3 is not about clicking the spell as fast as possible (most have cooldowns anyway), but about how to use the right spells and the right heroes in different situations. Of course this kind of stuff doesn't fit with SW or any other large-scale RTS, but fits WC3's universe very well. (that was kinda off-topic, but I need to defend WC3 in these dangerous places of the net ).


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Old 03-26-2004, 03:07 AM   #43
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A Jedi hero for each Civ if I'm not mistaken I never saw a Gungan or Wookiee Jedi. Plus we never saw Darth Maul leading a group of droids into battle.
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Old 03-26-2004, 05:18 PM   #44
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Windu - I was completely unaware that an RoN expansion even existed. In what ways is my Politician similar?

Froz - I also think making a type of Soldier hero is a bit boring, and not really true to the movies. Jedi heroes work much better. In the case of Gungans and Wookiees, perhaps they're the only civs who don't get a Jedi hero? Or perhaps they get a different hero, like two Officer heroes instead of just one. Or perhaps in place of a Jedi, they get a Warrior hero, that isn't quite as good as a Jedi but is a lot cheaper. But this all depends on my question: does every civ have normal Jedi as they do now in addition to this Jedi hero, or would the Jedi hero be the only Jedi for a civ?

Also your comment about Darth Maul leading battles - I completely agree. That's why my Jedi hero does not grant benefits to those units around them, and are better used on their own. The Officer hero is the unit that leads battles.


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Old 03-26-2004, 09:28 PM   #45
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I only used Mace&Clones as an example to show that a Jedi hero would just fight with the units and stay with the "army" all the time. Like most of you, I don't think they should add any kind of bonuses (like you said, that's for the officer).

For the Soldier hero....

Like I said in my first post (p.1), I am against the idea of giving Jedi to civs who don't have any connection with Jedi. That is, I would only give Jedi to Republic, Empire, Rebels and perhaps the confeds (dooku!).

I just got a new idea though...

What if we actually scrap the Jedi hero, and replace it with the warrior hero (I seem to contradict myself, but read on).
Each civ would get their warrior hero. However, the civs that have some "connections" with Jedi (see above) would have a Jedi as their warrior hero. This would also help to create unique heroes (it's a must, btw), since there would only be like 3-4 Jedi/Sith to design.

Anyway, that's just a new idea to discuss on.


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Old 03-27-2004, 12:09 AM   #46
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When I said solider I ment anything besides a Jedi that can hold himself in battle. I didn't mean a basic trooper above the rank of the others. I'm still not so sure about Jedi heroes.
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Old 03-27-2004, 02:07 AM   #47
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I think buildable Jedi heroes can only work if there are no regular Jedi available. If you can build many Jedi anyway, a Jedi hero isn't that great. But if you can't build regular Jedi, a Jedi hero is that much better.


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Old 03-28-2004, 02:01 AM   #48
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How about making the Jedi hero a Jedi Master, that way you can still have generic Jedi Knights but they would be weaker than the master.

Also, if you did use movie based heroes, one way to balance them out could be something like this:

Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader (examples) they would be more powerful than the other heroes but if they come close to each other on tha map, the players lose control of them as they have a duel. Any bonus effects they had on other units would also be lost, they would be too busy with their confrontation to continue leading their troops.

I'm not sure how those battles would be resolved, maybe the loser escapes badly wounded and needs to be taken back to base to be healed (Luke after Bespin).

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Old 03-28-2004, 03:16 AM   #49
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Yeah Master Heroes and Knight generic. Not a bad idea.

The duel thing seems fun but what happens when say Han meets Vader? How many chances does he stands against him?

And welcome(maybe welcome back) to our little gang. Your name seems familiar...


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Old 03-28-2004, 03:33 AM   #50
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Thanks for the welcome back, I have posted a few times in the past.

Anyway, I was thinking that it would only apply to the most powerful heroes but now that I think about it more, each hero could have a nemesis, when they meet the effect I posted above happens.

Luke and Vader
Han and Boba Fett
Leia and Tarken
Obi-Wan and Maul
Anakin and Dooku

etc

Another option could be Movie heroes or Generic, it would be selected before the game begins.

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Old 03-28-2004, 03:02 PM   #51
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Maybe we shouldn't give the option of both generic and movie heroes. There really won't be much of a point since most of the people will choose the movie heroes anyway. They'll want them in-game.

We, on the other hand, don't really want movie heroes since it hampers realism. Maybe I should post a poll about it.


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Old 03-28-2004, 05:54 PM   #52
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Thats true, hmm how about when you create the hero you could chose for it to be a movie character or a generic character.

If the characters are developed like WC3, it could be something like this:

Movie characters would have a much more limited range of skills to develop (Darth Vader wouldn't have much in the way of diplomacy based abilities for example). They also have the weakness of their nemesis.

Or the player could build a Generic hero which would have a random name generated (and players could rename them if they wanted, just double click on the name and type in the new one).

The player would then have to develop that hero by selecting skills to level up as the hero gains experience.

There would be several different skill trees, Force Powers, Political Abilities, Combat Abilities, Covert Abilities etc. The player would be only be able to max out one of these trees and maybe have a few extra abilities, or they could spread out the skills evenly.

The appearence of the hero would change depending on the choices made, if the player goes heavily into force powers, the hero would eventually change to a Jedi Master. If they went into politics the hero would eventually wear some elaborate clothes as we see in the prequels.

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Old 03-29-2004, 02:19 AM   #53
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See we are going backwards I don't want movie heroes in the regular rm in campaigns I'm all for it. I don't want the heroes to be anything like WC3. We want a RTS not a RPS
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Old 03-29-2004, 05:24 AM   #54
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I agree. I think what you've described, Angelus, is far too complicated for an RTS.

Now I find the idea of realism when it relates to the presence of the movie characters a bit perplexing. As a purist I am divided between two schools of thought:

1) It would be good if movie characters were included, because it relates the game more to the movies which is excellent. From this point of view having generic-named heroes distances the game from the movies and makes it "less-pure".

2) Including the movie characters "re-writes" the story of the movies, because if Luke Skywalker dies, well obviously that's not what went on in the movie. It doesn't matter if generic characters die because they aren't in the movies. So in this way including the movie characters makes it less pure.

I have been tossing up between the two schools of thought. Neither is better than the other from a Purism point of view, I think. So I think I'll turn to Gameplay rather than Realism, because lets face it, it is much more fun to play with the movie characters. This will also be more attractive to non-Star Wars fans.

So I want Movie characters, not generic characters.


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Old 03-29-2004, 03:14 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by Admiral Vostok
I agree. I think what you've described, Angelus, is far too complicated for an RTS.
Fair enough.

I think movie characters would probably be a more popular choice for most gamers and fans. Ok, so some of them will die but Rebellion used movie characters and they could (and did) die.

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Old 03-29-2004, 05:22 PM   #56
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Fair enough. Movie heroes it is.


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Old 03-29-2004, 06:43 PM   #57
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How about the nemesis idea?

I'm still trying to think of how to balance out the heros who wouldnt be connected, lets say a Trade Federation player vs a Rebel player would mean Maul vs Luke.

Hmm, something that just came to me, there could be a building somewhere on the map (Cantina?) where you can hire a bounty hunter (Boba/Jango Fett perhaps?) to hunt down an enemy hero.

You wouldn't be able to control the bounty hunter and it would be expensive. Maybe the price you pay could affect which bounty hunter you get.

1000 Nova - Dengar
2000 Nova - Bossk
4000 Nova - IG-88
8000 Nova - Boba Fett

The bounty hunters could only be hired by one player at a time (so there wouldn't be 2+ Boba Fetts running around)

Worf


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Last edited by Lord_Angelus; 03-29-2004 at 07:11 PM.
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Old 03-29-2004, 10:35 PM   #58
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Not a bad idea with the bounty hunters. Similar to some of the other ideas floating around here.

As for the nemesisisisies idea, it's not a bad concept but it could get a bit weird. What if you've got two players playing as Rebels? Would Luke fight Luke? Or if you've got two Rebel players and two Imperial players, then you have two Lukes and two Vaders and something weird might happen.


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Old 03-30-2004, 01:14 PM   #59
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I'm not settling with movie heroes in normal rm it may be fun but its definately not what most gamers would want. And from a gamers stand point its if you play online I would rather some made up hero in a civs arsenal then a movie hero.

Movie heroes are campaigns and scenarios. Normal are with random maps.

WC3 had half the idea they did not mix there hero units from the campaign into a races normal army. But it still had the same skin and powers just a different name so they were half way there but not the full distance.
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Old 03-30-2004, 08:14 PM   #60
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I dont see people accepting a character that looks like Darth Vader but uses the name Darth Random.

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Old 03-30-2004, 10:36 PM   #61
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From a marketing standpoint it's logical to use movie heroes.

On the box what do you think would attract a Star wars fan:

-Unleash your randomly generated heroes against your foes?

Or

-Unleash heroes such as Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader on your foes?


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Old 03-31-2004, 03:28 AM   #62
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I didn't say randomly generated heroes......

I guess Ill have to finish my template before any of you understand.....
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Old 03-31-2004, 04:52 AM   #63
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The difference is that ALL of the characters in Warcraft III were made either specifically for the game, or were made specifically for it's predecessors so they must appear in the sequel. With Star Wars, the characters already exist, the game is just using them.

No-one would have cared if the back of the WC3 box said "play as Prince Arthas!" but people would care if the back of the SWGB2 box said "play as Darth Vader!"

And I don't see how playing on the zone gives you any better judgement on what the name of a character should be. It might give you insight into how people play, but not what the name of a character should be. That's just taking things too far, Froz.


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Old 03-31-2004, 08:50 AM   #64
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Ever considered minor movie characters? (eg Eeth Koth, General Dodonna, Queen Jamilla etc)


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Old 03-31-2004, 10:15 PM   #65
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Just to get back for a sec to movie heroes :

Are you guys sure that having movie heroes in RM games is "more-pure"?

For me, games and movies should not interfere (i.e.: Luke shouldn't be in a RM because he's not in a RM in the movies).

That's just my point of vue... I would keep movie heroes for campaigns.


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Old 03-31-2004, 11:18 PM   #66
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We have to think that not only Star Wars purist will play the game. Many others will and having movie heores in RM will have more appeal to these people(who, if I dare say, composes the majority of buyers).


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Old 04-01-2004, 02:57 AM   #67
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Well sorry to say but I don't post ideas to keep you people happy........
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Old 04-01-2004, 11:47 PM   #68
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Froz - That's for sure.

Windu - The problem is people would much rather play as major characters than minor characters. Minor movie characters would be fine for campaigns but I wouldn't think they'd make good buildable heroes. Read on for clarification...

Darth54 - Yes, movie characters in RM are more pure because of the following reasoning: the campaigns tell a story that either goes along with the movies or expands on them. RM games have no bearing on the movies because they're essentially fantasy battles - if you can have the Rebellion fighting the Republic then no-one should be under the impression the game is consistent with the movies.

Quite often campaigns will feature parts from the movies but alter them to make a better game. Because of the alterations, the games become less pure, so the presence of movie characters can really effect purity. In RM movie characters can be fine because you're not playing as part of the movies, you're just playing a "what if?" battle.

So I think buildable heroes should not be available in the campaigns, instead you start with a few heroes important to the story, which may or may not be movie characters depending on the plot of the campaigns. In RM you get to build movie characters, because RM is the most played part of a game and movie characters will be popular.

A way to think about it is the way Jedi were used in the Rebel and Imperial Campaigns of SWGB1. In both of these campaigns, you could not build a Jedi Temple, because that would be horrifically impure... in fact now I think about it you couldn't build Jedi Temples in any of the SWGB Campaigns, only in the Clone Campaigns. Yet Jedi and Sith Temples are buildable in RM, because RM is just for fun, and isn't trying to be consistent with the movies.

I hope everyone could understand what I was on about. Basically what I'm saying is this: I'm Lord of the Purists, so if it's okay by me I don't think other purists will mind. I'm fine with playing Echuu Shen Jon in the campaigns but I'd rather not build him in an RM...


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Old 04-02-2004, 10:18 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally posted by Admiral Vostok

if you can have the Rebellion fighting the Republic then no-one should be under the impression the game is consistent with the movies.
Alright, you've made your point. I'll shut up now


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Old 04-03-2004, 12:41 AM   #70
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Vostok you said you wanted movie characters now you don't........
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Old 04-03-2004, 10:00 PM   #71
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I agree, it is possible that the movie characters might recreate historical battles using holographic technology in their spare time (between movies, books, games etc), or maybe they are training simulators where they are helping the new recruits train for combat.

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Old 04-04-2004, 03:02 AM   #72
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Froz: No I still want movie characters, but only in RM. In the campaigns, I think there should be no buildable heroes, but you start each scenario with the relevant heroes for the storyline of the campaign. These heroes in the campaigns could be either movie characters or made up ones or both.


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Old 04-04-2004, 01:04 PM   #73
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Again Vostok you throw words into my mouth, what I ment was that you start off or gain heroes through the campaign but not building them. In RM its different you hire a non movie hero but it is buildable.
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Old 04-05-2004, 06:13 AM   #74
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Froz, I was just referring to the fact that you suggested I didn't want movie hereos, when in fact I do. What do you mean I throw words in your mouth? I'm confused...


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Old 04-05-2004, 11:07 AM   #75
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So you want movie heroes in RM and campaigns......

For a purist thats very un pure.
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Old 04-05-2004, 06:50 PM   #76
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How so? I explained above my Purist thoughts on including characters. Please explain.


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Old 04-07-2004, 03:35 AM   #77
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And I don't see how playing on the zone gives you any better judgement on what the name of a character should be. It might give you insight into how people play, but not what the name of a character should be. That's just taking things too far, Froz.
WTF is that ment to mean?

I didn't even imply that cause I play on the zone that you won't understand its just to hard to explain. My template has nothing to do with SWGB 1 and it has no heroes so what are you on about?

Well you are not the purist you make yourself out to be. You want movie characters in RM but if Luke SKywalker dies 1000 times he still leads the rebellion to victory.........

The heroes from the movies get old they are great for scenario players but not rmers. I'd rather generic heroes or no heroes at all. You can make up a history for a character and fit them into a story line quite easily. With Sev'Rance Tann she is ment to be Count Dooku's apprentice and she is from EU so if they can bring a EU character into it why can't they mak up there own and add them in.
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Old 04-07-2004, 04:56 AM   #78
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Quote:
And from a gamers stand point its if you play online I would rather some made up hero in a civs arsenal then a movie hero.
Sorry, I interpreted this remark as saying "The point of view that matters is gamers who play online. I play online and I would rather some made up hero in a civ's arsenal than a movie hero." If I interpreted incorrectly, I apologise.

As for Purism, you're looking at it the wrong way. In RM, the Rebellion can fight against the Republic, which doesn't follow the movies at all, so it is quite acceptable for Luke to die 1000 times as you put it. RM is like what-if battles, just for fun. But as a Purist I'd much rather use characters from the movies than non-movie characters, because the movies are supreme and nothing can compare to them. While most people are not Purists, I'd wager most people would rather use movie characters than characters they've never heard of as well.


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Old 04-07-2004, 06:05 AM   #79
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I don't mind them in terminate the commander but in an RM it seems weird to be building a Luke Skywalker or a Yoda.....
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Old 04-08-2004, 12:32 AM   #80
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Well it's far better than having a no-name character no one cares about like Echuu Shen Jon or Ziff Kalasco.

Yes I did make up Ziff Kalasco. He's my generically-named hero.


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