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Old 04-12-2004, 02:52 PM   #41
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luke - actually, you havent criticised my idea at all after those few questions...

The whole point of creating this template is not to create MY perfect game, but to create THE perfect game. To do this, i would really like some (constructive) criticism from every forum member here!


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Old 04-12-2004, 10:06 PM   #42
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We all have different views. You can't create everyone's perfect game.


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Old 04-13-2004, 12:56 AM   #43
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luke - while that is true, the only way i can make my template better is by having it criticised, and at the moment that's not happening.

For example, the only person who has mentioned my 'Generals' idea was only asking why Obi-Wan was the Republic's General.


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Old 04-13-2004, 02:57 AM   #44
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Windu we could probably come up with alot of bad things in there but its not worth it you don't listen anyway.
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Old 04-13-2004, 04:58 AM   #45
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How do i not listen? The community decided it wanted 4 main civs, i modified my template to fit that. Vostok had issues with my 'Clone Factory' idea, so i modified that.

Besides FroZ, if you don't tell me what you think is wrong, there is no way for me to fix it is there?


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Old 04-13-2004, 02:47 PM   #46
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Admittedly you do seem to be listening a lot more than usual.

Well I think that the four civs are in general too generic. They operate the same way pretty much. Include more information about resource gathering, population accumulation, trading (if any).

saberhagen: You're a WH40K fan? Me too. I'm hanging out for the RTS too... though to be honest I don't have a whole lot of faith it will be great...


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Old 04-14-2004, 01:37 AM   #47
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Vostok - well that all good, but how are my civ's too generic? Also, with resources gathering etc, do you mean you simply want more detailed info, or do you want differences between the civs?


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Old 04-14-2004, 03:47 AM   #48
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How about both?
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Old 04-14-2004, 05:56 AM   #49
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I guess i can do that, not sure when though, because at the moment i'm re-vamping the Australian Constitution


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Old 04-14-2004, 01:09 PM   #50
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Okaaay...

Are you just going to copy bits from the best constitutions from the rest of the world? Just kidding.


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Old 04-15-2004, 02:03 AM   #51
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Very funny Vostok. No, it's for a uni assignment, we have to alter the constitution in some form to make it better, mine is to create a Republic.

But anyway, won't SOMEBODY comment of my Generals?


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Old 04-15-2004, 12:23 PM   #52
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Most of the Generals seem okay except for Luke Skywalker. I don't remember him ever turning Stormtroopers away from the Dark Side. His power makes no sense.

Now, with respect to being too generic:
At the moment everyone gets a single type of Worker, which are all the same from civ to civ, and Medics are also available to everyone except the Separatists. That is a bit too generic for my likes.

For example in C&C Generals (which your design has the most in common with) Workers are quite unique from civ to civ. The USA resource collector is the Chinook, which is an aircraft an a transport that carries 600 supplies. China has the Supply Truck, which is a vehicle that carries 300 supplies. The GLA has the Worker which is infantry and carries 75 supplies. As you can see, all different and all unique. When I put up my new design you'll see just how different and unique workers can be.

What about where the Workers drop their resources off to? At the moment it is very generic. Admittedly it was also quite generic in C&C Generals, but it doesn't have to be. One of the best things I like about Age of Mythology (although the game as a whole has fallen out of my favour) was that each civ had a different way of gathering resources. The Greeks built one building for Food and one for Gold and Wood together, while they had to worship at their temple for Favour. The Egyptians built separate buildings for Wood, Gold and Food, and had to construct monuments to amount Favour. The Norse had a mobile drop-off point that could be used for all resources, and got Favour in combat. The Atlanteans villagers actually counted as drop-off points, so while they gathered the resources were immediately added to the stockpile - no need to return to a building. Unfortunately I got so bored with Titans I can't remember how the Atlanteans got Favour... but I'm sure it was good.

Also instead of giving everyone a Medic (because even in EU, the only civ with field medics are the Republic) perhaps each civ could have different ways of healing. For example, because as I just mentioned the Republic are the only ones with a field medic, perhaps they're the only ones with a medic unit. The Separatist medic is their worker, as you've got already. The Rebels might have to build a Medical Bay, which is a building that heals nearby units. The Empire, because they have a never-ending supply of manpower, might not have any way to heal units. There you go for more uniqueness.

And what about trading? At the moment it's all the same for everyone. So there's room for more uniqueness. And while on the subject of trading it mentions that at the Spaceport you can buy and sell resources for credits. If there is only the one resource how exactly does this work?

You've also got power supplies very similar to C&C Generals, but whereas their power supplies differed from civ to civ the only place you've introduced uniqueness is that the Republic doesn't use power supplies. There is plenty of room for uniqueness there.

So forget your Uni work and get to making the civs more unique! Or better yet get your Uni work done and wait a couple more days for me to put up my new design to show you how it's done.


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Old 04-16-2004, 01:53 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by Admiral Vostok
(1) Most of the Generals seem okay except for Luke Skywalker. I don't remember him ever turning Stormtroopers away from the Dark Side. His power makes no sense.

Now, with respect to being too generic:
At the moment (2) everyone gets a single type of Worker, which are all the same from civ to civ, and (3) Medics are also available to everyone except the Separatists. That is a bit too generic for my likes.

For example in C&C Generals (which your design has the most in common with) (4) Workers are quite unique from civ to civ. The USA resource collector is the Chinook, which is an aircraft an a transport that carries 600 supplies. China has the Supply Truck, which is a vehicle that carries 300 supplies. The GLA has the Worker which is infantry and carries 75 supplies. As you can see, all different and all unique. When I put up my new design you'll see just how different and unique workers can be.

(5) What about where the Workers drop their resources off to? At the moment it is very generic. Admittedly it was also quite generic in C&C Generals, but it doesn't have to be. One of the best things I like about Age of Mythology (although the game as a whole has fallen out of my favour) was that each civ had a different way of gathering resources. The Greeks built one building for Food and one for Gold and Wood together, while they had to worship at their temple for Favour. The Egyptians built separate buildings for Wood, Gold and Food, and had to construct monuments to amount Favour. The Norse had a mobile drop-off point that could be used for all resources, and got Favour in combat. The Atlanteans villagers actually counted as drop-off points, so while they gathered the resources were immediately added to the stockpile - no need to return to a building. Unfortunately I got so bored with Titans I can't remember how the Atlanteans got Favour... but I'm sure it was good.

(6) Also instead of giving everyone a Medic (because even in EU, the only civ with field medics are the Republic) perhaps each civ could have different ways of healing. For example, because as I just mentioned the Republic are the only ones with a field medic, perhaps they're the only ones with a medic unit. The Separatist medic is their worker, as you've got already. The Rebels might have to build a Medical Bay, which is a building that heals nearby units. The Empire, because they have a never-ending supply of manpower, might not have any way to heal units. There you go for more uniqueness.

(7) And what about trading? At the moment it's all the same for everyone. So there's room for more uniqueness. And while on the subject of trading it mentions that at the Spaceport you can buy and sell resources for credits. If there is only the one resource how exactly does this work?

(8) You've also got power supplies very similar to C&C Generals, but whereas their power supplies differed from civ to civ the only place you've introduced uniqueness is that the Republic doesn't use power supplies. There is plenty of room for uniqueness there.

(9) So forget your Uni work and get to making the civs more unique! Or better yet get your Uni work done and wait a couple more days for me to put up my new design to show you how it's done.
1. I agree, but i couldn't figure out any unique power for him

2. Yeah, because i cant figure out anything else to do. I did have the Jawa Sandcrawler as the Hutt resource center which i thought was cool, but thats gone now

3. Well, a medic is a medic...

4. That really doesnt work in my template, because i have infantry collectors (workers) and aircraft traders

5. Again, i cant really think of anything unique to do. As i said, i did have the Sandcrawler, but not anymore

6. Not a bad idea, must take a closer look

7. Well not really. Everyone's trading vessel is different. For example, the Imperial Shuttle doesnt carry a great deal, but has self-defence weapons and is relatively fast. On the other hand, the Republic AA-9 Transport is slow, but has heavy armour and carries double that of the Imp's.

8. I guess...

9. Yeah, THAT's going to happen . I actually figured out i have an extra week to do these assignments so i might edit my template today.


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Old 04-16-2004, 02:31 AM   #54
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4. I know you do. My point was you don't have to.

1-3,5-8. So your answer is "I couldn't think of anything better." Well take a look at my design and be in awe.

9. Yay.


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Old 04-16-2004, 05:07 AM   #55
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UPDATE AVAILABLE

Actually i've taken some of your criticisms onboard, i've givena lot more detail to the end-game resource problem, removed most of the Jedi, and overhauled the 'medic' question.

With Medics, they are gone from my game, with healing now performed by-

Confederacy - workers heal all units

Empire - no healing units

Republic - units riding in Gunship and AT-TE are gradually healed

Rebellion - rebel infantry gradually heal themselves (due to their essential knowledge of battlefield medicine)

Also, i have slightly changed the gathering of resources, with the Empire and Republic replacing their Worker Droid's with the AT-CV (All-Terrain Construction Vehicle) which is larger and more expensive than WD's, but holds more cargo and is harder to kill. Also, the Imperial version has slightly more armour, slightly less carry capacity, is slower, and has self-defence weapons as compared to the Republic version.



But anyway, there is an update available at my website, so everyone check it out!


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Old 04-17-2004, 05:45 AM   #56
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Come on people, COMMENT!


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Old 04-17-2004, 09:41 AM   #57
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I dont like any of the new healing, in through template for confed everything is a droid so its really repairing not healing.
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Old 04-17-2004, 11:25 AM   #58
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FroZ - okay then, what would you suggest as a better system?


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Old 05-01-2004, 11:46 PM   #59
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UPDATE 30/04/04

Hi people. Just letting everyone know that i have updated by SWB2 idea. The changes include-

- specifying exactly how airfields work, i quite like the system

- addition of two new units, the Jedi Starfighter Pilot and Rebel Pilot. Besically, the JSFP can (but doesnt always) eject from a JSF, then becoming a standard Jedi (Padawan, Veteran Padawan or Knight depending on JSF rank) when they hit the ground. The Rebel Pilot can eject from the X-wing, Y-wing, B-wing, A-wing or T-47, and keeps the aircraft's rank with him/her. The Rebel pilot can then garrison any other aircraft, transferring their rank onto that new aircraft.


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Old 05-09-2004, 06:23 PM   #60
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Some questions about the airfields system:

1. Is there a limit to how far away the aircraft can fly?

2. Is there a limit to how long they can fly for?

3. What happens if an airfield is destroyed whilst aircraft are out on a mission?


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Old 05-09-2004, 11:27 PM   #61
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Okay, well thanks for showing where i need more detail

Anyway,
1. Nope, they can fly as far as they want

2. Yes, for Bombers and Fighters anyway. For transports (eg Gunship, Imperial Lander) are always in the air unless they are loading/unloading. Fighters/Bombers would remain in the air for the same time (approx) as in C&C: Generals.

3. They would retern and land where the airfield used to be, or where you choose. However, they would not be able to take off again until a new airfield in built, at which point they will automatically go to those new facilities.


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Old 05-10-2004, 01:07 PM   #62
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1. Good. Distance limitations was just another aspect of RoN that was crap that I hoped you didn't include.

2. Well I suppose that will do. I'd prefer them to not have a time limit, but I guess it will start getting weird if they're just hovering around doing nothing.

3. I like this idea rather than crashing like in Generals. But what happens if the airbase is destroyed while they're landed?

4. Can't remember if you addressed this, but how many fighters and bombers can each airbase support? Will it vary from civ to civ?


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Old 05-11-2004, 03:13 AM   #63
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3. If that happens, the aircraft are destroyed as well, otherwise it would be somewhat tedious trying to destroy each aircraft, and it would also be extremely unrealistic.

4. Well, airbase's in my template are very flexible. Initially, you build the airbase which takes up four 'squares' and has a control tower, hanger (both for decoration) and two landing pad for two aircraft. BUT then you can add landing pads to the existing airbase, building around other structures or terrain problems such as rocks. Airbase's will therefore vary in both size and shape depending on how the player builds them. Also, when you build an 'extension' it is built as only a landing pad (no tor hanger) and becomes part of the exisiting structure (same health bar) and so lets you have more aircraft ladning space for less money. HOWEVER if the airbase is destroyed, the extensions are destroyed as well.


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Old 05-11-2004, 10:58 AM   #64
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First of all they are not airbase very unstarwarsy, space ports hangars, landing bay ect is better.

Why can't they take off if the hangar is destroyed? What is stopping them we have all seen fighters take off with no port I dont see how this matters. Destroying a hangar should just mean they lose there ability to use ships and bombers stop spawning bombs.
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Old 05-11-2004, 11:00 AM   #65
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Hmm, quite interesting. To destroy the airfield does the enemy have to attack the control tower bit, or can they just attack a landing pad and it will destroy the whole airfield?


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Old 05-12-2004, 06:39 AM   #66
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FroZ - they are airbase's, it doesnt matter what you want to call them, they are still airbase's.
Anyway, with the hanger bit it's because otherwise, what is the point of having airbase's? Aircraft also need to rearm and refuel before they can go out again, which is why the player cant order them to take off again, but they can still find their own way to an airbase.

Vostok - to destroy the airbase, the enemy can attack any part of it. Remember that when extra landing pads are built onto an exisiting airbase, they become part of the structure. This is one of the advantages and disadvantages players have to negotiate, deciding whether to expand their airbase's to build new ones.


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Old 05-12-2004, 08:53 AM   #67
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Thats where gameplay is taking over realism after each fighter/bomber run you think we should go back and refuel and rearm before going out again?

The point of hangers are to unlock the air tech tree and research air upgrades. SW ships are not limited to refuelling all the time and rearming there weapons like jets in reallife. It kind of makes it to much like RA2, where once you use your missiles you return to base. But if they don't return then we have the same problem where they are hovering in midair not doing anything.

How about if they are idle for lets say 10 seconds they return to the hanger or something but no refueling or rearming is needed just keep using them. The only exception would be bombers they would have to go back spawn new bombs then head out.
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Old 05-13-2004, 06:11 AM   #68
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FroZ - you are thinking in SWGB1 terms. In my template, there really is no air tech tree.
As for aircraft returning, yes, i think they should return after every attack. We see in TPM (Naboo), AotC (Jedi Temple), ANH (Yavin), and RotJ (Home One) that aircraft use airbase's and their equivalents, and we also see in ANH the X-wing's being fuelled and readied for the attack. Furthermore, we can extrapolate that bombs have to be replaced after they are used, so therefore the logical conclusion is that aircraft should return to base to re-arm and re-fuel.

I also dont see how this is gameplay is taking over realism. It is realistic in that they need to be rearmed and refueled, and it is good for gameplay in that while powerful, aircraft can be destroyed on the ground and cannot be used constantly.


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Old 05-13-2004, 09:20 AM   #69
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They do refuel and rearm after an attack yes but not one strike and head home....

Naboo were fighting until the TF ship was destroyed you want them to return after one strike and thats it. AIR IS USED CONSTANTLY IN STAR WARS!!!! Gunships did not rearm or refuel in the whole Battle of Geonosis and made countless strikes at the Confed forces. I agree with rearming rockets but not basic lasers they should be used as much as they want, once rockets are all used they must return to the base to rearm them.

So in your template there is no aircraft research at all?
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Old 05-13-2004, 11:48 AM   #70
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I'm with Froz on this one. There is no reason for fighters to return straight to base. Bombers should return after a bombing run to reload their bombs, but fighters should not. Perhaps after making an attack, the fighters will hang around the area flying in a holding pattern. As Froz said, if you don't tell them to do anything after a while (maybe as long as 30 seconds) they'll return to base just because they aren't doing anything. However if you keep giving them targets they can stay out there forever.


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Old 05-14-2004, 01:15 AM   #71
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Well, with fighters that only use lasers (X-wing, A-wing, Jedi Starfighter etc) they would be able to stay out longer, but would still be subjected to the time limit placed on all aircraft. They could fire as much as they wanted, but would still have to return to base.

FroZ - sort of. In my template, players invest a percentage of their credits into Research, one of which is Military Research. This covers new units, upgrades etcso that ishow you would get things like the A-wing, Gunship etc - they wouldnt be available straight off.


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Old 05-14-2004, 06:37 AM   #72
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If invest in military research you start climbing the military tree? So troops and basic training would come first and you have no control on what comes next?
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Old 05-14-2004, 10:02 AM   #73
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Yeah, the process sucks, but Windu likes Rise of Nations.

And I still think fighters should be able to stay out there forever. If they need to return for re-fuelling, why don't ground vehicles need to as well? As long as they are doing something, the fighters should not have a time limit, because none of the ground vehicles do.


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Old 05-14-2004, 10:02 AM   #74
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Yes. This system is designed to allow the player to concentrate on other matters, such as producing units and fighting battles.
Although you lose control of which technology is researched, you do have control over how frequently you gain these new technologies, which depends on the amount of credits you invest (more credits = faster research)

So basically, at the start of a game, using the Empire as an example, you would only have access to Stormtroopers, possibly Rocket Troopers and Scount Troopers. Then, you will gradually gain access to AT-PT's, AT-ST's, TIE Fighters, TIE Bombers etc, and then finally the AT-AT. Then, the military research will shut down with no more funds devoted to it once everything is researched.


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Old 05-14-2004, 11:31 AM   #75
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I hate that idea it Vostoks saying it sucks is still giving it to much credit. I hate that idea and I'm glad my friend bought it and told me it sucked before I wasted my money on it.

Air should be able to stay out as long as you want it to. I think giving them a time limit is not realistic to SW and is not supporting gameplay either.
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Old 05-14-2004, 11:48 PM   #76
Admiral Vostok
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I agree completely with Froz. I think this is the first time such a thing has ever happened


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Old 05-15-2004, 04:41 AM   #77
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FroZ - where did you get the idea that this is how RoN's research works because...it isnt. Apart from not being able to tell if a game is good or not without playing it, my research system is unique (as far as i can tell) in that ive never seen it in an RTS.
As i said, you simply invest in research, which is produced automatically. Better for gameplay, more realistic.

As for aircraft...no. As i've said, aircraft are powerful, but are vulnerable when on the ground and should not, and hence cant, be used constantly. With ground forces, it is a very different matter, but the fact is that aircraft cant keep flying all the time.


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Old 05-15-2004, 10:30 AM   #78
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Windu - Your researching idea is remarkably similar to RoNs. The only difference is yours is done automatically while you have to manually perform RoNs. In that case, yours is even worse than RoNs because it requires even less thought to do.

As for Aircraft, you still haven't come up with why they can't be used constantly. They are powerful? So is the AT-AT. Does the AT-AT need to return to base at inopportune times to refuel? No. Neither should the X-Wing or TIE-Fighter or any other aircraft without a payload.


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Old 05-15-2004, 11:00 AM   #79
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Windu, your researching systems gives the player absolutely no control on what he wants to get. Let's say I want to get so heavy AA as fast as I can. Can I do it? Absolutely not because it has to go through 17 other researches before I can get there.
It's one of the most pathetic anti-rush system I've ever seen.


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Old 05-16-2004, 12:17 AM   #80
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Damn Luke you beat me

I would think it would encourage rushing since thats all you have until the mech research order comes in.
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