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Old 05-16-2004, 02:25 AM   #81
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luke - you HAVE to remember that there is no such thing as Heavy AA in my template, you are thinking in SWGB1 terms.
My research system does give the player control over how quickly they tech up, and what they want to concentrate on. I was also thinking of adding a military subsection of Infantry, Mech and Aircraft.

Vostok - it is nothing like RoN. Apart from there being 5 different researches in RoN, these are done using the old, clunky system of clicking on the research when you have enough resources, and does not include various upgrades like better armour, which are done at different buildings.

Again, my system is designed to allow the player to concentrate more on getting their base set up, collecting resources, and battle - which is the whole point of buying the game!


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Old 05-16-2004, 04:29 PM   #82
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That's beside the point. It was only an example. Change Heavy AA into AT-AT if you want but it stays the same.
They cannot go from A to C by skipping B. They have to do everything in the exact same order every time.
Controlling how fast it goes isn't control at all.

This feels a lot like Civ where you have to research almost everything in order to advance. Except that you had more control in Civ then here since you can choose your researches.


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Old 05-16-2004, 06:51 PM   #83
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Well dividing the Military thing up into Infantry, Mech and Aircraft is a start, but still not as good as the current GB system of "research stuff you want".


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Old 05-16-2004, 11:21 PM   #84
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I still think this system is a lot better.

luke - but why would you have the AT-AT before, for example, the AT-PT? Bad for gameplay, poor realism. Besides, you shouldnt have access to your most powerful units as soon as you start the game.

vostok - well, i disagree with you, i think it is far superior to the SWGB, RoN, AoE etc system.

The system that i am using allows the player to concentrate more on battle and base-building, not worrying about going to each individual buiding to see if there are technologies to research. If that is the sort of game you want, go play SimCity.

My system allows player many options. For example, are you going to concentrate on more effecient resource collection (Economic), higher pop slots (Civic), better units (Military) or more units (none)? The different research fields, and the ability to devote percentage values to each gives many varied strategies to players. Economic booming, rushing, teching-up etc are all possible in many times the number of combinations available in the older games.


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Old 05-17-2004, 07:57 AM   #85
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Funny thing is Windu your the only one who thinks its superior....

They implement tech levels for that purpose of not having a AT-AT at the start. Luke is basing it on that fact this system is only covering your arse cause you have no tech levels.
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Old 05-17-2004, 10:20 AM   #86
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Exactly. That's also why they created tech trees.

I never said we should have access to the most powerful units at the start of the game. That's again, why they created tech trees. But with this, the tech tree becomes kind of useless. It's like a continuous tech level advance.

Rushing is impossible. There's almost no way you can rush here. Everyone has the same units since military research all goes the same.

I've been thinking about this. Although it is true that this allows people to turn away from advancement from buildings, it doesn't make the player concentrate on war.
See, since the speed of your researching comes with the amount of ressources you put in it, the smart player will go look for more ressources and concentrate on his economy so he can get more powerful units earlier then his opponent. Since this is also true in every other RTS, I think here people will concentrate a LOT on economy.


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Old 05-17-2004, 12:28 PM   #87
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I agree with Luke's Dad. The economy side of things requires just as much attention in your plan as it does in other games, but is made a whole lot more restrictive and even boring.

And If you've played SimCity, you'd know it is actually more like your game, where you don't click on individual buildings but you put funds into different areas as a whole.


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Old 05-18-2004, 03:37 AM   #88
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FroZ - so then why are you objecting to my research concept when the effect is the same?

Luke - its a tech tree managed differently. Also, rushing would be possible. In term of research, you can but 90% of your credits into research, or 0%. If you want to rush, you just put a small amount in economic, or use all of your credits building a force straight off - your opponent wont have the same number of more powerful units to stop you.
Economically - not true. The smart player would have their worker's mining resources, and would be putting a lot of credits into Economic research while building spaceports to supplement the resources they collect.

Vostok - so the economy requires as much attention but micromanagement of research is significantly reduced? Good, that is what i was aiming for.


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Old 05-18-2004, 06:44 AM   #89
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I object because people want control over what they research and build. If someone wants to go fast air they can't without all the other research before it gets there.
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Old 05-18-2004, 04:30 PM   #90
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Then what's the point in even putting anything in economic research?! People will just pump out units as fast as they can so they can slaughter the "econ" player.
That's ridiculous...

So now your game has a huge focus on economy. You have to build up all the time to get more ressources. That doesn't reduce micro.

Microing everything is almost everything in any RTS. You can reduce it but when it's too low and we don't even see a point in having an economy it turns into an RTT(real-time tactical game I think).
But yours is just like a bad attempt at an RTT while trying to push in some RTS elements. The two don't mix well.


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Old 05-18-2004, 06:13 PM   #91
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Windu, I never said micromanagement would be reduced. I said the tech side of things becomes boring whereas before it required some thought.

And as Luke's Dad says, what's the point of putting any money into econ when you can pump out a force faster without doing so? That's just rediculous.


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Old 05-19-2004, 06:52 AM   #92
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FroZ - but they do determine exactly how much is put into research, and which research to put that into. This system is superior to the old system in every way, except that the player cannot choose which individual technology will be researched.

luke - no. Using Economic research will generate more credits at spaceports, will make resources worth more, and will allow worker units to carry more resources. Hence, if you are econ booming, and you can hold off a rush, you should be able to crush your opponent - much like it is now.

Vostok - it would require thought. You have to decide what percentage of your money should go on research. Then, you need to decide what technology field you want to concentrate on, then you need to manage the rest of your funds by building structures, units etc.


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Old 05-19-2004, 10:38 AM   #93
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I still don't see how it is superior to the "older" research you still have not proven it. Your have proven the complete opposite....
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Old 05-19-2004, 11:24 AM   #94
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Okay, let me get this right:

Joe puts 90% into Econ. His workers carry more, his spaceports generate credits, he gets more cash flow in general.

Fred puts 90% into Military. He gets access to units quickly so he can mount a rush.

Fred mounts a huge attack on Joe using the units he was able to get quickly because he spent big on Military. Joe fights him off with... his ability to carry more resources?

Personally my money is on Fred.


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Old 05-19-2004, 04:19 PM   #95
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No, it will lead to people commanding big armies in epic battles. Pay attention.
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Old 05-20-2004, 06:08 AM   #96
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Vostok - no.
Because Joe is putting so much into Econ, he would be generating a lot more metal and credits than Fred, and with these extra credits would be able to build a defensive force.

Fred, on the other hand, would have access to more powerful units, but would have far less resources to use in constructing those units. A better rush tactic would be to dispense with research altogether and just build units, although that would really stuff you if the attack failed.


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Old 05-20-2004, 09:25 AM   #97
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But surely, because Joe hasn't researched any Military, his "defensive" force would be unable to defend successfully against Fred's more advanced force.

How can the best way to rush be to research nothing? I want to rush to get aircraft... so I research nothing?


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Old 05-20-2004, 11:16 PM   #98
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That all depends on how many units Joe has built, and what base defensive structures he has.

As for rushing, why would you want to rush with aircraft? Beside that being odd, with my system of building airbase's that would probably be difficult anyway.
With what i said about the best rushing, that would be best because then all of your resources would go into unit production, rather than more powerful units.


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Old 05-20-2004, 11:42 PM   #99
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Why would I want to rush with Aircraft? Because in every single game that features Aircraft it's a good tactic to rush to get Aircraft before your opponent has anti-air defense. Your research method doesn't allow for decent rushing, which is a valid and time-honoured tactic.

Your game makes less sense the more you explain it, Windu.


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Old 05-21-2004, 03:50 AM   #100
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Windu would not care if people were paralyzed from rushing in the first place. His ideas support nothing but booming, next idea will be a terrain boundary where the enemy can't pass until an hour is up........
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Old 05-21-2004, 09:59 AM   #101
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Vostok - but then Anti-Air defences and units are also part of military research. I should also point out that the Rocket Trooper counts as anti-air, so there would be very little chance of rushing with air the way you have explained it if we were using traditional researching.

FroZ - not true. If people want to rush, they can rush. As for boundries, i do have them, but all they define is where a player can build structures and mine resources.


On a side note, what does everyone think of my change to the Imperial Starfleet Uplink?


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Old 05-21-2004, 11:06 AM   #102
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The whole point of fast air Windu is to kill as many workers as possible before the guy can get any rocket troopers or any aa out. "Traditional researching" is more possible to hit fast air than this system you have because people know which direction they are flowing and know the building blocks to hit that strat.
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Old 05-22-2004, 05:48 AM   #103
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FroZ - GOSH! SHOCK!! HORROR!!!

You might have to change the strategies you have been using for x amount of games. You do realise that NEW and ORIGINAL ideas are what keeps genre's and games fresh and interesting, dont you?

Regardless, you still didnt comment on my change to the Starfleet Uplink.

Also, i have added 'Movement Autonomy', 'Weapons Autonomy' and 'Orders' to my template which i think are quite nice.


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Old 05-22-2004, 10:18 AM   #104
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Well if they impliment new systems with every game as you put it how can I use the same strategy with all the RTS I supposedly play. Plus original ideas (don't go hurting yourself Windu mentioning that word) are not just a bunch of games you played for the last x amount of months and just changed unit names and added them together......
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Old 05-22-2004, 11:51 AM   #105
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The only "original" part of your research idea, Windu, is that you invest money in it rather than click it every time you want to go to the next level. Sure, it's a little more realistic, but it is dumbing-down RoN's idea. It requires absolutely no thinking. Most people will invest all their stuff evenly and not have to concern themselves with research for the rest of the game.

As for your other ideas:
I really don't like the new Starfleet Uplink. It gives you access to the Recon TIE, which I assume you made up and which violates Vostok's Laws of Non-Canon Units and Star-Warsy-ness.

I quite like your Orders idea, but as for Movement Autonomy and Weapons Autonomy I think the traditional Aggressive/Defensive/Hold Ground Stances do this better. They at least make more sense than red/yellow/green.


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Old 05-23-2004, 12:33 AM   #106
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FroZ - they HAVENT been implimenting new systems, thats the point

Vostok - why are you so obsessed with my research being similar to RoN - it isnt, get over it.

As for the Starfleet Uplink, i changed that because, quite simply, i thought it over-powered the Empire, and i dont like Superweapons. As for the Recon TIE Fighter, all it is is a TIE that reveals an area instead of shooting - not a big leap. I should also point out that you have non-canon units, such as the V-19, in your template.

As for the Movement/Weapons autonomy, the reason they are colour-coded is so people know exactly which is which in a hurry, thats all.


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Old 05-23-2004, 06:50 AM   #107
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But when you know the controls of an RTS and are in a hurry you don't look. You use hotkeys as much as possible and even when you have to click a button with a mouse, you often do it instinctively because you just know the position of the button.
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Old 05-23-2004, 05:24 PM   #108
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Who are you trying to convince that your system is totally dissimilar to RoNs? It isn't, get over it.

And while I do have non-canon units in my template, they all follow my Laws. Obviously you can't have a decent RTS without some non-canon units. Here's my Laws again to refresh your memory:

Vostok's Laws of Non-Canon Units and Star-Warsy-ness

1. It shall not replace or at least do-as-well-as a canon unit at a given task.

2. It is possible for it to exist as we did not see a type of warfare it excels at in the movies.

3. It shall not have some amazing ability that just about every army would have if they existed.

The Recon TIE violates Law Number 2. If Recon TIEs existed, they would have been sent into the asteroid field to search for the Millennium Falcon in The Empire Strikes Back.


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Old 05-24-2004, 11:27 AM   #109
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*cough* RA2 Soviet Spy Plane *cough*


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Old 05-24-2004, 11:03 PM   #110
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Hardly Vostok. The Empire was hunting to kill/disable her, and since the Recon TIE doesnt carry any weapons, it would've been useless in that task, especially considering that there was SD's there.
I should also point out that the Republic's V-19 violates that rule as well, if the Clones had a fighter they would've used it on Geonosis to cover the Gunships.

saber - then novice players have it a little easier, and it doesnt affact veterns - so its a good system then.


Anyway, i have updated my template on the website. I have now merged the Rebel Commando and Sniper, and given the Rebel's the Power Droid which could come in very handy. I'd also like to know if people think the Rebel Commando should capture or blow up buildings, and how capturing buidlings should work, if it is included at all.
I also changed my research to be divided into three section (Military) and two sections (Economic and Civic)
Oh yeah, i also included in-text links to make everything easier to find.


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Old 05-24-2004, 11:56 PM   #111
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It's true the Empire needed something with weapons, but to me it would make sense to send in a ship that has advanced sensors and better manouverability to actually find the Falcon, then send in the armed ships. This would result in less losses from the asteroid field. When the Falcon was hidden, we see TIE Bombers flying over dropping bombs. They were trying to find the Falcon by flushing her out, they weren't actually thinking the bombs would kill anything. A Recon TIE would obviously be much better at this task.

As for the V-19, it doesn't contradict anything. First of all, the Battle of Geonosis was the first conflict involving the Clones, so it's possible the V-19 wasn't in use yet, but more importantly fighters like this are not used for ground support in Star Wars. If they were, we would have seen TIE Fighters on Hoth, Droid Starfighters on Naboo and Geonosian Fighter in support of the Separatist army on Geonosis.

Or are you suggesting the Republic Army just relies on Jedi Starfighters for space combat?

As for the Rebel Commando, they should blow up buildings, not capture them, because this is what we see them do in Return of the Jedi.


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Old 05-25-2004, 08:26 AM   #112
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With the TIE Recon, it does however fall under what i call 'Extrapolated EU'. Basically, this is EU that follows logic, such as the V-19 Clone Fighter. Why i say the TIE Recon falls under this is that the Empire would want a way to find rebel installations without putting their SD's, Bombers etc in danger, hence the TIE Recon. I should also point out that a huge amount of aircraft in the real world, from WW1 to the present day, were converted from Fighters to Recon birds by simply replacing their weapons with photo equipment. If it helps at all, just think of them as standard TIE fighters that dont shoot.

As for the V-19 i didnt say it contradicts anything. Besides, you saying 'it might not have been in service at Geonosis' could just as easily changed to 'the TIE Recon wasnt in service until after Hoth' like the TIE Interceptor.

With the Rebel Commando, i might change that, but then that brings up the question of should buildings be capturable, and if so, how?


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Old 05-25-2004, 11:55 AM   #113
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You do realize that they can easily use probe droids?


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Old 05-26-2004, 07:05 AM   #114
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I realise that, but then you have to build (and hence pay for) probot's, which also take up pop slots. The TIE Recon's dont cost anything and dont take up pop slots, so they are more economical.


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Old 05-26-2004, 10:02 PM   #115
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Ah yes, the Probe Droid. Hence the Recon TIE would violate rule number 1.

1. It shall not replace or at least do-as-well-as a canon unit at a given task.

Why not just replace the Recon TIEs with Probe Droids, and make Probe Droids otherwise unbuildable?


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Old 05-27-2004, 05:10 AM   #116
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No, they do a different job. TIE Recon's can go where probe droids cannot, and i should point out that while the TIE Recon's dont cost the player anything, they also only give occasional recon.


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Old 05-27-2004, 06:23 AM   #117
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Seems kind of forced............


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Old 05-27-2004, 06:39 AM   #118
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Quote:
Originally posted by Darth Windu
TIE Recon's can go where probe droids cannot
Like where?
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Old 05-27-2004, 09:31 AM   #119
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...anywhere. An example of course being that Probot's cannot climb cliffs. With my change to the Starfleet Uplink though, if anyone has a better idea, im open to suggestions.

I should also point out that i have updated my template, which is now available at my site. I have added a section explaining the different sorts of blasters, added 'Automated Light Blasters', formations etc.

Also, i've just started work on a template for a Space-based SW RTS, i only started it today, but i've already outlined the different fleets, and now getting onto what each ship does.

BTW what does everyone think of the modified Republic Cruiser below as a unit for the Republic Fleet? I figured they needed a light cruiser, so i modified one of models to suit it. (it's at the bottom of the page)

Republic Cruiser


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Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges

Last edited by Darth Windu; 05-27-2004 at 10:02 AM.
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Old 05-28-2004, 07:31 AM   #120
saberhagen
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 407
Probots can ****ing fly! In JO they seemed to be able to go anywhere and could be seen a long way off the ground.
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