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View Poll Results: Should there be Naval Units in SWGB2?
Yes 2 20.00%
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Thread: Should there be Naval Units in SWGB2?
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Old 04-12-2004, 09:57 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by Darth Windu
Personally, i would gladly reduce economic micro-management for more battle-time, because really that is the whole reason people buy RTS' - to fight. Otherwise, people can go out and buy SimCity.
No, you missed it. You can have both.
Now you're comparing a strategy game with an RTS. Although they both have the word strategy in, they are two different genre.
By the way, where in SimCity do we see wars and huge battles? Nowhere.


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Old 04-13-2004, 12:40 AM   #42
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luke - what i'm saying is that the focus of the game should be on battle - because that's why people buy the freakin' game!

There will have to be economic micro-management when you first set up your base. You will have to ask 'where do i want this structure, how many credits do i want in this research, how many workers do i want collecting resources' etc. That is unavaoidable, and a good thing. But once you have that done, you shouldn't need to constantly be checking to see if your workers are idle, if you've run out of resources etc causing you to take your mind of battle.


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Old 04-13-2004, 12:56 AM   #43
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You do realize that's how war is right?

War ain't only about the Military, from the beginning to the end.


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Old 04-13-2004, 03:01 AM   #44
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Windu with one resource its impossible to run out of resources so you will be in battle 99% of the time games will last 20 mins tops I assure you.
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Old 04-13-2004, 05:03 AM   #45
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luke - no, it isn't. In Ep5, we don't see General Reikan saying 'we have to get those workers over the ridge to collect metal' or 'gee, where should i put these barracks'? War is about fighting, not building an economy. As i said, we shouldnt delete it, but it shouldnt require micro-management in the end game.

Also, with war being only about the miliatry, it depends on who we are playing as here. Are we playing as a Political leader or a Military commander? If it's political, the economy is very important, if it is Military, then battle is more important.

FroZ - how on earth did you come to the conclusion that having one resource means there will be a lot of that resource floating around?


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Old 04-13-2004, 07:19 AM   #46
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Windu you never think of gameplay you just want as much fighting and action as you can get if that means destroying the playability of games.
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Old 04-13-2004, 09:35 AM   #47
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FroZ - yes, i do want a lot of action and fighting, but how exactly am i "destroying playability of games" and "never think of "?


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Old 04-13-2004, 12:36 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by Darth Windu
War is about fighting, not building an economy.
There's no war if you don't have a good economy. You gotta pay and feed those soldiers, after all.

And I think one resource like in Generals is bad. I'd say two, plus housing/food (wheter you want to make it like AoE or SC/WC)

Perhaps we should create a new topic... the title doesn't represent what we're talking about


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Old 04-13-2004, 02:41 PM   #49
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Yeah, but we already have another naval combat topic. This is now the official resources topic.

Now, much has been said since my last post. Once upon a time I would certainly be in the three-to-four-resources camp, but I think I'm now in the one-or-two-resources camp.

It has been said that having more resources keeps the game more interesting, whereas only one resource leads to boredom. I disagree completely. Age of Mythology has three resources, four if you count Favor (which you should), but I now find that game boring as Hell (if indeed Hell is boring). C&C Generals on the other hand I love, and it only has one resource. I don't find it boring at all.
Quote:
Three or more resources slow down gameplay this is good because it keeps you interested in the game longer than just a credit grind....
Slowing down gameplay does not keep you interested, it makes you bored. C&C Generals is filled with action which makes it interesting, while the gameplay of Age of Mythology is slowed down so that it becomes boring.

On the other hand SWGB has four resources and I don't get bored with that either. My point is more resources does not equal more fun.

When it gets down to it, three or four resources don't require any more strategy to use than one resource. You really just mine all the resources you can get your hands on, and late in the game you've got enough to exchange for what you need. The difference is that with one resource you don't need to do the exchanging part.


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Old 04-13-2004, 03:46 PM   #50
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Vostok maybe if you played games longer than a week you would have a different thought. AoM is about gods not SW. C&C generals is very boring they couldn't even get multiplayer balanced thats how great it is.
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Old 04-13-2004, 04:56 PM   #51
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Must there be an insult in every post you make Froz?

My point was that many resources don't make a better game, but they don't make a worse game either.

The reason I like the single resource for my latest SWGB2 design is because it seems more Star Warsy. But I am open to suggestion. Let's review possible resources:

FOOD: I think this should really be the first to go. Food is represented by population - population represents both a place for the trooper to sleep and the rations they get each day.

CARBON: This works okay I think, though it is a bit of a stretch.

NOVA: Nova in it's existing form sucks. It is really too un-Star-Warsy.

ORE: The look of it (purple) sucks, but if it was a resource like Metal I think it could work.

GAS: One of the few resources we know they do mine in the Star Wars Galaxy. But how would it work? Would you have to build airborne facilities or just facilities that suck it down or have airborne workers...?

SPICE: Another resource we know they mine in the Star Wars Galaxy. If they mine it on the moons of Naboo, I don't really think it is too contraband, and perhaps suggestions in EU of it as such are incorrect, as much EU is. But the fact is Spice isn't found everywhere.

PLASMA: The Naboo plasma is a minable resource, but it is pssibly unique to Naboo, which means we can't stick it on every planet.

CREDITS: A while ago in a thread similar to this we determined Credits to be a better resource than Nova. In my original design I called it Wealth. Basically to recap what would happen is there might be a Wealth Resource, which would appear different on every map like Carbon does at the moment. So when on Naboo it might appear as Plasma, when on Kessel it might be Spice and when on Tattooine it could even be Water. Mining this resource instantly gives you Wealth/Credits. I like this one a lot.


So I think for a multiple resource model the best candidates for true Star Warsy-ness are Credits, Metal and Gas.

Maybe I'll change my single resource system into this...


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Old 04-13-2004, 08:52 PM   #52
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I'm also bored of AoM, but not because of its multi-ressources system. Well kinda...

It depends on whether we want tthe game to have a very fast pace, fast pace, medium pace, slow pace or turn-based.

Single ressources work easily in very fast paced games(name any C&C game), two ressources work well in fast paced games, 3-4 work well in medium paced games and more work for the slower paced games.

AoM faced the problem of trying to be a very fast paced game while having many ressources. Bad idea and problem.


Windu: Yes Windu. You who use so many real-life examples must surely know that a country with a good economy can get more supplies to their soldiers. Guess how did the Americans beat the Germans in WWII. They didn't have better weapons or better soldiers. They had endless amounts of supplies for them and their allies.
Thus, economy is a VERY important part of war.


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Old 04-13-2004, 09:26 PM   #53
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I didn't say AoM was boring because of it's multi-resource system, I was saying multi-resource games aren't necessarily more interesting because AoM has a multi-resource system and it happens to be boring.


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Old 04-14-2004, 01:35 AM   #54
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luke - i'm aware of that, but again, are we playing as a political or military leader?

vostok - the last time i suggested the Gas idea, you were one of thos eopposed to it...


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Old 04-14-2004, 12:22 PM   #55
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[Propaganda]

What? Some people are bored with AoM and Generals? Then come and join us in WC3! We've got anything you like, including skirmish, scenarios and automated tourneys!

[/Propaganda]

I have to agree with Vostok on this one. The only resources should be credit, metal and gas. Personally, since I like 2 resources, I'd say keep the credit as the general resource, and add the metal for more advanced stuff. Of course I'd keep the food/housing system of Bliz./AoE.


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Old 04-14-2004, 01:26 PM   #56
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Windu - I seem to remember I was the first one to suggest Gas as a resource. If you dig up the old thread on which this was first discussed you'll see that to be the case.

Darth - I thought about just the two resources, but the way my Credit resource works would make it a bit strange: every resource gives you Credits except for Metal, which for some reason you process yourself while all other resources just give you money. However if you have two resources in addition to Credits it seems a bit better. At least that's my feeling, which probably makes no sense to everyone else...


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Old 04-14-2004, 11:49 PM   #57
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OK, I'l step down from the huge multi-ressource throne I was sitting on.

I see that two ressources aren't my big fun, being a Civ3 fan, but I think that I can like a two ressources game. 3 like Vostok said makes more even more sense then only two. Credits, Gas and Metal should be ok + population.
Food could be removed and included in population.

Credits and Metal only can also work.


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Old 04-15-2004, 02:42 AM   #58
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Funny how people are manipulated just to please others.....


The resources should be carbon,ore,credits,metal
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Old 04-15-2004, 09:35 AM   #59
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FroZ - why?
Carbon - unrealistic and unwanted
Ore - what exactly is Star Wars Ore?
Metal - obvious and realistic
Credits - currency of the Republic

So of the four you listed, only two make sence, which happen to be the two that my template uses

Everyone - with Gas, the last time i suggested we should have Tibanna Gas as a resource, i was shot down. The concept was to build the collectors we see in Ep5 at the Command Center, which automatically find and mine gas deposits in the air. As no-one liked that, exactly how would we use it?


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Old 04-15-2004, 12:22 PM   #60
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Vostok : I actually like your idea. Harvesting stuff would give you credits. That makes sense to me.

and no, I'm not being manipulated and we don't want the crappy 4 resources system from SWGB/AoE.


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Old 04-15-2004, 12:33 PM   #61
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Luke - glad you agree that more resources don't make fun or strategy. Look at RoN: Food, Metal, Wood, Oil, and about twenty unique resources. Fun? Not particularly. Strategic? Not in the slightest. There are many elements that make a game fun or strategic, and having several resources isn't necessarily one of these elements.

Froz - please explain the difference between Ore and Metal.

And it's not called manipulation, it's called changing your mind. You know, something you criticised Windu for never doing? You should try it yourself sometime.

Windu - yes, now I remember. I didn't like your model because no resources should be found automatically, that's just too easy. Pump out the collectors and don't think about Gas for the rest of the game... even single resource games have more econ micromanagement than that...

I have just fully integrated Gas into my design, and as you will see it is a resource quite unlike any resource in existing RTS games so far. I think people will like it.


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Old 04-15-2004, 03:43 PM   #62
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Ore- in SW is used on nearly all structures to keep them solid.

Metal- Is a weaker form than ore and used on heavy weapons,droids and mechs.

Carbon- used on troop armor, weapons, droids, light mechs and some structures.

Darth- I wasn't even referring to you...
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Old 04-15-2004, 04:26 PM   #63
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Oh okay. Might need a better name than Ore though, because in reality Ore is Metal.


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Old 04-15-2004, 08:19 PM   #64
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Instead of having Aerial Gas, why not have gas like in StarCraft?

It wouldn't be Tibanna Gas but it'll be gas.

Carbon is realistic. How come is it not?


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Old 04-15-2004, 08:58 PM   #65
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But aerial gas is Star Warsy while gas like in StarCraft is not. Plus StarCraft has done it already.

Check out my new design and see what I've done with resources, the link is in my sig.


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Old 04-16-2004, 01:55 AM   #66
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FroZ -
but what sort of Ore? I mean, in the real world, you get Uranium Ore, Iron Ore, Alumina Ore etc. What im asking is, what is this thing we are digging up? Incidently, i dont think i've come accross a single reference to it in EU

with Carbon, that really doesnt make sense either. Why cut down trees to make armour? I mean really, this is set in the future, and we have better methods now, besides this can be covered by Credits


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Old 04-16-2004, 03:38 AM   #67
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Well metal can be covered by credits as well but you still have them. I'm not having it taken from trees it is coming from rock deposits. Even if I wanted wood in my template I could it is made into structures also.

Corintium Intrusive Ore
Vintrium Extrusive Ore
Robindun Siliclastic Ore
Keschel Extrusive Ore
Unknown Sedimentary Ore
Malab Siliclastic Ore
Frasium Carbonate Ore
Chromite Carbonate Ore
Ostrine Carbonate Ore
Ilimium Extrusive Ore
Crism Siliclastic Ore
So all that I broke down into plain ORE!!!!!
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Old 04-16-2004, 04:05 PM   #68
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While those are all Ore, they are also all Metal. So the analogy of having both Ore and Metal to mine is a bit weak.


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Old 04-16-2004, 04:12 PM   #69
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There shudn't be any ships unless we see naval combat in episode 3 which is unlikely. Just use admiral vostok's plan and the game will be the best ever!!!!
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Old 04-16-2004, 04:29 PM   #70
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Welcome, holy knight. Another Star Wars Purist? Ah, my legion grows ever larger...


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Old 04-16-2004, 09:13 PM   #71
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keep the navy! just for flavor.


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Old 04-16-2004, 11:38 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally posted by the_holy_knight
Just use admiral vostok's plan and the game will be the best ever!!!!
Ass-kisser

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Old 04-17-2004, 02:51 AM   #73
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Old 04-23-2004, 06:29 AM   #74
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No naval units in a Star Wars Galactic Battlegrounds 2 or next Star Wars Strategy Game. Just make the aircraft more powerful vs. ground units. Make certain ground units able to move through shallow waters. The troops will have to garrison inside large mechs or aircraft like AT-ST or AT-AT or Imperial Lander, etc.


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Old 04-23-2004, 12:52 PM   #75
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Quote:
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@ mastern64 :

Yes, it's a strat game, but it's also a SW game. If we include naval stuff, we take the game away from the SW universe.
No no no. Taking away stuff from the SW universe would be taking away jedi or clone troopers. Naval combat adds to the SW universe.


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Old 04-23-2004, 12:58 PM   #76
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Actually Mastern, it does take away from the SW universe because we have never seen Naval combat, intergalactic naval combat doesnt make sense, and we have seen a total of three naval units in 5 films.


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Old 04-23-2004, 03:51 PM   #77
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How does it take away from the SW univrese? Just cause we didn't see it the movies doesn't mean we can't have it in a game. There is a lot in this game that isn't in the movies. Such as...

Confederacy/gungan/Republic fighters.
Naval Combat
Some Mechs
Most Bombers
etc.

Course without all this the game would be small and well, dull. AND think of all the other SW games that have EU stuff in 'em.
(Just to let ya know, KOTOR is 100% EU and it was one of the best-selling games that year.)


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Old 04-24-2004, 02:02 AM   #78
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There's a huge difference between KotOR and SWGB2. First off, KotOR can be totally EU since it's 4000 yrs before the rise of the Empire. Second, we are making a game centered around the movies so the movies should come first. Have we seen naval combat in Star Wars(The Clone Wars cartoon is not cannon and anyway there's not enough in there to make naval combat important)? No.

Finally, is naval combat necessary? No. We can do just fine without it.


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Old 04-24-2004, 01:49 PM   #79
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If there is no naval combat, i don't see the point of even having water. Therefore, all the maps in SWGB II will be land maps. Doesn't seem so bad does it? But, of course, some planets are centered on water, such as Naboo. And if your civilization is living around water, you would think that they would develop some kind naval units. In the first SWGB I think LA thought just to make it even, and that naval combat is a part of war, strategy, and a little star wars, they put naval for all. Did they make it even for all? No. Thats where the strategy part comes in. You use your strongest units against what they are good at killing (Not much strategy in there, but in this game, there are more techniques) Naval combat is not before or aftr the movies. Its filling in the gaps of the movies that you didn't see beforehand. And who knows? There may be naval combat in Ep III.


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Old 04-24-2004, 03:38 PM   #80
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Mastern, obviously you've never played WarCraft III or C&C:Generals. Neither have naval combat but they still have plenty of water.

Until naval combat is in the movies, it should not be in a game.

The reason naval combat was in SWGB1 is because it was just a professional mod for AoC, which had naval combat in it. But despite the inclusion of naval combat in SWGB, it isn't really used all that often. When combined with the fact we just have no evidence naval combat even exists, it means there should be no naval combat in a Star Wars RTS.





And EU sucks.


Admiral Vostok, Star Wars Scholar and Lord of the Star Wars Purists.

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