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Old 05-05-2004, 06:20 AM   #41
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there's the whole mel gibson quote about his wife being a much better person than him, but she is going to hell because she is the wrong sort of christian. sigh. Don't get that sort of thing at all.

Surely all these people who have faith in god have faith for a reason? Some experience they have had? (the whole born again christian thing).

If I have had no such experience then I have the option of either "pretending" to believe in god. (ie, going to church, saying "i believe in god and nothing you can say will change that") or continuing to question the world around me until i find an answer.

I know what the sort of god i would like would want me to do.

I'd like to know if mennonite or any of the others here have had any sort of religious "awakening", or if they are just christians because they were born and brought up in a christian society?

If it is the latter then surely they haven't "found god" any more than I have.



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Old 05-06-2004, 04:28 AM   #42
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Re: Is God's power really finite?

Quote:
Originally posted by Tyrion
I thought of this when I was remembering about how Sunday was created for God to rest on after his six days of work. Now..wouldn't he require no days, just a "poof" and the world would be created? If he has to work, then his power is ultimately infinitely more finite than everyone says...which means he isn't the Omega, not the Alpha, because the bible indirectly says that his power is limited, and that he cannot control time.

What do you guys think about this? Do I have a point, or have I had one too many of Rhett's jawa juices?

Wow. I never thought of that before. You've convinced me. I no longer believe in God. Instead, I'll worship the trees and the wind, listen to Godsmack, and be totally gay. Way to completely tear the myth that is creation down, Mr. Darwin.
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Old 05-06-2004, 08:45 AM   #43
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Originally posted by RayJones
or, to put it on the edge, i could be a "sinner" (the whole program, y'know) all my life, and when it's coming to an end i can "find my way to god" and will be "saved" because "all my sins will be forgotten". isnt that unfair against the "always doing good guys" who only dont believe, but will be send to hell, because they never will find a "way to god"?
Bluntly put, that's a political decision within the early Church. Fairness doesn't enter into it.

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Wow. I never thought of that before. You've convinced me. I no longer believe in God.
No need to be sarcastic. He's got a valid point.

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Old 05-08-2004, 12:15 PM   #44
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The Catholic church would've, at least once in it's entire exsistance, changed the bible to thier own benefit.
Actually, no - we have scrolls dating from the 1st century AD that are more accurate than any other historical document from that age to now. The Bible has not changed in nearly 2000 years. Specifically, the only differences are minor changes in phrasing or word choice that don't change the overall meaning of the text.

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If God is a loving being, he must presumably wish to rid the world of evil. If he is all-powerful, he must have the ability to rid the world of evil. However, evil - undeniably - exists in the world. Therefore, an all-powerful, loving God either does not exist, or this all-powerful God would have to be evil.
This has already been answered to a certain extent, but here we go: If God is all-powerful, He retains the ability not to act as well as to act. And if He wishes to create persons capable of fully realized interaction with Him, those persons must have free will. His intervention to prevent any evil from occurring - that is, to stop all humanity from acting - removes free will.

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because what one persons views as evil may be viewed by another person at another time and place as good
Here's the theologically based response to that: if God is real and all-powerful, then what any given person believes is good or evil at a given point in time doesn't mean squat. Period. Only what God says are good and evil matter.

Now, back to the point of the debate: is God truly all-powerful (this means that we're assuming His existence, not debating it... at least that's my take. Start another thread if you want to debate his existence). Simply because He does not choose to intervene constantly does not mean He is not all-powerful. Oh - and the seven days thing. Everyone consistently interprets that to mean both the American sense of "rest" - which it doesn't so much - and that it means He needed to rest - which isn't necessarily true. The actual word used there is more in the sense of simply being done with a job than needing to recuperate from it. Secondly, simply because one finishes a job doesn't mean one is tired or needs to rest...

Next, of course He could do it in a moment. But according to the Biblical account, He didn't. That doesn't mean He couldn't. Now, the logical response it "Then why didn't he if he could?" I'm not saying that's not a valid argument, but if you're going to assume there is a God, then by definition He is greater in abilities and intelligence than a human. That's what makes a god. So His motivations in taking His time is not necessarily something a human comprehend. Finally, we have the "length of the seven days" argument that comes into play - but none of these demonstrate that He is or is not all-powerful on a conclusive level. Technically, nothing can, because there is no test that can show it... (I can hear the epistemic naturalists screaming "See? We told you so!!" already...)


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Old 05-08-2004, 02:20 PM   #45
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No I'm not a "beleiver", but i think if God existed/exists and created the world, maybe He did it over a period of time becuase although He could have done it by the whole "poof and it's there" it would have been boring otherwise. Maybe God limits His own power so as to make things more interesting for Himself.


However that does bring in the fact that if His power was infinite, he could clap his hands and it would be physically impossible for Him to be bored at any given time.


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Old 05-09-2004, 02:31 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by ShadowTemplar
No need to be sarcastic. He's got a valid point.
That's a matter of opinion. As a former atheist, I too used to try and be cool and say "how about this?" "how about that?". The list of holes in religious documentation goes on and on. I made my wife cry once just mentioning "where are dinosaurs in the bible?" My point, though it may not be deemed "valid" by you is this: Why do atheists care? Why not just be content with your smugness? I mean, according to faith and doctrine, Christians are required to try and convert people. But what, other than spite, drives the atheist? All I can come up with, is a need to look down at someone. A need to feel like everyone you don't agree with is a fool, and/or somehow less intelligent, and a need to point that out. And everytime I see something like this thread, I think that surely I'm not the only man to have ever had a faltering in my own faith. A moment where I said to myself "this is nonsense. How can any of this crap be true? How can I be expected to believe it?"

I don't need "a valid point" to ask my own questions. Or find my own answers. Or form my own opinions. I realize this is a public board, moreover, a public debating board. So things like this will come up. I just always wonder why these ultra-trendy-hipster-know it all-atheists give a rats ass what I believe? Yeah yeah yeah, I know. "well if not for religion, all the wars would never happen", and blah blah blah. Nonsense. I've heard that argument a dozen times over. If you honestly believe that if everyone in the world suddenly renounced God, or whoever they worship, that all of the worlds troubles would just *POOF* dissapear, you're a bigger fool than anyone you point down and laugh at from your Darwinian throne. You could be killed today, by someone very close to you, in a very nasty fashion, over your damned tennis shoes.

So pick a noble cause. Give a meal to a homeless guy. Donate something you don't need to the Salvation Army. Open up a halfway house, or a home for retarded kids, if you're just hell-bent on helping someone out. Making attempts to destroy someones faith reveals not only a persons lack of respect, but also the incredible ammount of free time they have. And it helps no one, except you and your precious ego.
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Old 05-09-2004, 11:47 AM   #47
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That's a matter of opinion. As a former atheist, I too used to try and be cool and say "how about this?" "how about that?". The list of holes in religious documentation goes on and on. I made my wife cry once just mentioning "where are dinosaurs in the bible?" My point, though it may not be deemed "valid" by you is this: Why do atheists care? Why not just be content with your smugness? I mean, according to faith and doctrine, Christians are required to try and convert people. But what, other than spite, drives the atheist? All I can come up with, is a need to look down at someone. A need to feel like everyone you don't agree with is a fool, and/or somehow less intelligent, and a need to point that out. And everytime I see something like this thread, I think that surely I'm not the only man to have ever had a faltering in my own faith. A moment where I said to myself "this is nonsense. How can any of this crap be true? How can I be expected to believe it?"
In a way, we're trying to do the same favor for you. You (well, the general christian really) spend at least three hours every week at a chruch spending time praying to your god. It would be essentially wasted if there was no god; you could use that time to instead spend time with your family, or work during those hours and perhaps donate the money earned to charity?

Quote:
I don't need "a valid point" to ask my own questions. Or find my own answers. Or form my own opinions. I realize this is a public board, moreover, a public debating board. So things like this will come up. I just always wonder why these ultra-trendy-hipster-know it all-atheists give a rats ass what I believe? Yeah yeah yeah, I know. "well if not for religion, all the wars would never happen", and blah blah blah. Nonsense. I've heard that argument a dozen times over. If you honestly believe that if everyone in the world suddenly renounced God, or whoever they worship, that all of the worlds troubles would just *POOF* dissapear, you're a bigger fool than anyone you point down and laugh at from your Darwinian throne. You could be killed today, by someone very close to you, in a very nasty fashion, over your damned tennis shoes.
Religion was essential back before there were real capitalistic economies and democratic governments. In Egypt, the average citizen lived poorly in huts or sometimes small brick homes. The slaves were even worse. Now, what way could they give them hope, what way could they have held actual power over them? Saying that if they didn't work well, they could burn thier bodies and thier soul wouldn't go and live in the afterlife. Same with peasants in the middle ages; a good way to deal with them is to make them believe that if they do anything wrong, they will go to hell.

Quote:
So pick a noble cause. Give a meal to a homeless guy. Donate something you don't need to the Salvation Army. Open up a halfway house, or a home for retarded kids, if you're just hell-bent on helping someone out. Making attempts to destroy someones faith reveals not only a persons lack of respect, but also the incredible ammount of free time they have. And it helps no one, except you and your precious ego.
Once I get a job, I plan on donating money to the Salvation Army. And what's with you and thinking we have big egos; I participate in the theological discussions as much as I participate in political discussion here. Unless political discussion just boosts my ego too; please tell that to everyone in congress if you do think that.



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Old 05-09-2004, 02:26 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tyrion
In a way, we're trying to do the same favor for you. You (well, the general christian really) spend at least three hours every week at a chruch spending time praying to your god. It would be essentially wasted if there was no god; you could use that time to instead spend time with your family, or work during those hours and perhaps donate the money earned to charity?
What "same favor" would that be? If you're implying that the purpose of this thread was to get Christians to donate money to charity, then I must get myself to a wash room to make sure I don't have the word DUMBASS tattooed across my forehead. The purpose of this thread is to shake peoples faith as far as I can tell. If you have a better excuse, I really want to hear it. And besides, everyone knows that the people wasting their time in church donate to charity all the time. Even if all they do is give money at collection time.


Quote:
Originally posted by Tyrion
Religion was essential back before there were real capitalistic economies and democratic governments. In Egypt, the average citizen lived poorly in huts or sometimes small brick homes. The slaves were even worse. Now, what way could they give them hope, what way could they have held actual power over them? Saying that if they didn't work well, they could burn thier bodies and thier soul wouldn't go and live in the afterlife. Same with peasants in the middle ages; a good way to deal with them is to make them believe that if they do anything wrong, they will go to hell.



Once I get a job, I plan on donating money to the Salvation Army. And what's with you and thinking we have big egos; I participate in the theological discussions as much as I participate in political discussion here. Unless political discussion just boosts my ego too; please tell that to everyone in congress if you do think that.
Yeah, I'm on the phone with congress right now. I don't know if you suddenly lost your mind, or that was some silly ass attempt to be funny, but either way I can't make any sense out of it.
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Old 05-09-2004, 02:46 PM   #49
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Quote:
]What "same favor" would that be? If you're implying that the purpose of this thread was to get Christians to donate money to charity, then I must get myself to a wash room to make sure I don't have the word DUMBASS tattooed across my forehead. The purpose of this thread is to shake peoples faith as far as I can tell. If you have a better excuse, I really want to hear it. And besides, everyone knows that the people wasting their time in church donate to charity all the time. Even if all they do is give money at collection time.
Yeah, they do collect money too. But still, you spend alot of time in church just praying, which could be used for other things(like earning money to donate).

Quote:
Yeah, I'm on the phone with congress right now. I don't know if you suddenly lost your mind, or that was some silly ass attempt to be funny, but either way I can't make any sense out of it.
What I meant was that I don't have a big ego trying to dissuade Christians, since I argue as much about Theological arguments with political ones(in other words, I'm not fixated on "breaking" Christian beliefs).

The whole point of this forum is to discuss these things, wether it's if the Bible is in of itself a contradiction, or if it's about guns are wrong. If you don't like it; leave. No one is forcing you to read this thread, heck you don't even need to go through these discussions to read the threads in the swamp.



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Old 05-09-2004, 02:59 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tyrion

The whole point of this forum is to discuss these things, wether it's if the Bible is in of itself a contradiction, or if it's about guns are wrong. If you don't like it; leave. No one is forcing you to read this thread, heck you don't even need to go through these discussions to read the threads in the swamp.
I thought that's what we were doing here. Discussing things. But now you're telling me I gotta leave? Maybe you need to haul ass. I never said I "don't like it" here. Or that anyone is "forcing" me to read this thread. In fact, I don't even know what brings that up. Are you angry at someone or something? And on what authority do you tell me to leave?
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Old 05-09-2004, 03:17 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by CapNColostomy
I thought that's what we were doing here. Discussing things. But now you're telling me I gotta leave? Maybe you need to haul ass. I never said I "don't like it" here. Or that anyone is "forcing" me to read this thread. In fact, I don't even know what brings that up. Are you angry at someone or something? And on what authority do you tell me to leave?
If you want to discuss things here, then I apologize. I don't think however, saying:

Quote:
Wow. I never thought of that before. You've convinced me. I no longer believe in God. Instead, I'll worship the trees and the wind, listen to Godsmack, and be totally gay. Way to completely tear the myth that is creation down, Mr. Darwin.
is really participating. From my point of view, it looked like you're angry at me.



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Old 05-09-2004, 03:21 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tyrion
If you want to discuss things here, then I apologize. I don't think however, saying:



is really participating. From my point of view, it looked like you're angry at me.
Appology accepted. And point taken. Perhaps a little more tact could've been execised in my original post. So allow me to appologize as well.
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Old 05-09-2004, 04:16 PM   #53
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MODERATOR COMMENT:

At first I was getting a little irked at the tone you two were taking and trying to decide whether to edit or delete anything, but I see you guys worked it out.

Let's keep a couple of things in mind, everyone.... no flames, no insults. Discussion can be heated and polar without being ad hominem.

Also, try not to quote more text than you write... not a firm rule, but one that is a good norm to follow if just to keep the threads neat.


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Old 05-10-2004, 03:55 AM   #54
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Something else I'd like to add. It's said that he used the sabbath or seventh day to rest. It doesn't say he used it to "regain his strength" or collect health and power ups. Maybe he just wanted a day where he had nothing at all to do? A blow-off day of sorts.
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Old 05-10-2004, 05:03 PM   #55
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who would deny "him" that..?

anyways..

i think there could be some good explanation why god, if existing, could not do it within a *poof*. time is one of the basic components in the universe as we know it. it would be only logical if time is needed to "create" it. other theories support this thought too..
how long this process lasts is another thing. fact is, we can say, because of our experiences and our actual state of knowledge, how long it can last or could have lasted.

regardless of how long "creation" lasted, maybe the "six days of work, one day 'let it hang, bro'" story just wants to say "hey, do it like this and you can achieve anything!"

well.. we mostly did it like this, and err.. here we are.


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Old 05-11-2004, 09:56 AM   #56
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surely, before he created the sun there weren't any days?

Still, i guess he would want to sit back and admire his creation.

And it is a "him", because it says in the bible that he created man in "his" image. And we are taking the bible to be the literal, unaltered truth.

Still no answer about whythe bible says the moon is a source of light?

What i don't get though is why we need to rest too! Just cos god had a rest on the seventh day, that is no reason why man shouldn't do any work on the seventh day. That logic doesn't follow.



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Old 05-11-2004, 11:15 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by toms
surely, before he created the sun there weren't any days?
one day is the time the earth needs to rotate 360. so the sun is no very much involved here. also this certain interval of time (ca. 24 hours) exists without the earth needing 24 hours to rotate 360.

and surely the sun was there before any planet of our solar system was.

Quote:
What i don't get though is why we need to rest too! Just cos god had a rest on the seventh day, that is no reason why man shouldn't do any work on the seventh day. That logic doesn't follow.
i have no problem with working on the seventh day. from a certain point of view, cooking a meal is already work. i usually cook meals every day of the week. so from that point of view i work every day. ok it's not the work i earn my money with, but its work.


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Old 05-16-2004, 05:16 PM   #58
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One thing that I am really, gobsmackingly tired of is Christians (and Muslims, and Hindus, and [blank]) complaining how they're being discriminated against. Take a shallow look at the history of humanity, and if you still want to discuss discrimination, let's talk about the Middle Ages/Taleban/Shatila/Kashmir/whatever.

As for this whole six-day creation thingy, well, you've got two different versions in Gen1. And if you look at them from the POV of an anthropologist/historian, you'll notice that they are written at two different times by two different people in two radically different environments and cultures.

Also, what we know as OT only came into being during the 1st cent. AD. Before that a plethora of different stories and myths existed within the Jewish faith. But because Christianity had the Book, and because of the exile from Palestine, the Jewish Diaspora needed a Book too; hence the need to establish a canon. But that involved cutting out a lot and probably editing a whole lot more. So what we know as OT really is a patchwork of different myths and legends from the tribes of Palestine/Saudi Arabia, chosen by a bunch of (very fallible) priests (who were very suceptible to the all-too-human desire to tweak the story to their own shortterm political advantage).

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Old 05-18-2004, 01:59 PM   #59
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Quote:
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there's the whole mel gibson quote about his wife being a much better person than him, but she is going to hell because she is the wrong sort of christian. sigh. Don't get that sort of thing at all.
Gibson explained his belief that he is simply accepting a teaching "from the chair."

Meaning, a Pope 40+ years ago said it and that's how he interprets it (ie: non Catholics don't go to heaven).

However he (Gibson) contradicted himself in public earlier when he agreed with Dianne Sawyer that Muslims, Jews, everyone can get to heaven.

Though the quote with his wife makes me think he doesn't personally believe it, but he "submits to the authority" because he trusts that the Pope is right.

Where most Catholics would disagree with Gibson's minority sect is that since then, this teaching has been interpreted differently by subsequent popes including the current one, so really it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

In Gibson's sect the "real" Catholic church has been outside Rome for the last 40 years. We haven't had a real Pope since Pius XII (1960's). My question for them would be who do they think the real Pope is, and why isn't he doing anything?


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Old 05-20-2004, 07:37 AM   #60
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it seems strange that the bible has become this "untouchable" tome that is the "undisputed word of god".

It appears that it wasn't always this way, and it might even have not been its intended purpose. It used to be debated and interpreted, and it seems to me it might even have been intended to be a "compilation of thoughts and knowledge" to be passed down and added to, rather than an inviolate rulebook.

At some point the church seems to have picked one of these interpretations and decided that that is the correct one.



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Old 05-26-2004, 11:34 AM   #61
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And you can almost put a date on it: AD 400, where Christianity usurped power in Rome.

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Old 06-13-2004, 08:03 AM   #62
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Didnt read through it all...but just FYI.....to whoever said He can't control time...according to the scriptures, he pro-longed a day during a battle...I believe with Gideon.


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Old 06-19-2004, 03:49 AM   #63
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I see absolutely no point in debating this. In terms of religion there is no right or wrong. Obviously some people will take this thread as correct, and other will disagree or even regard it as blasphemous. It all boils down to religion, and this is one of people's core religous and personal beliefs...it isn't going to be changed by some thread on the internet. Everyone interprets scripture differantly, and between christians, other christians, and jews the old testament can be interpreted in totaly differant ways. And who is to say either of those religions are correct? There are plenty of other religions out there. Plenty, from atheism to zoroastrianism they all have differant beliefs. ...nothing can be proven.
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Old 06-19-2004, 11:43 AM   #64
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In the end there really isn't a point to debating anything on this forum if you look at things your way. Very few of us here will ever have our opinions swayed by the arguments on the other side, but what we CAN do is refine our arguments, weed out the useless drivel that we sometimes spout, and learn more about our OWN beliefs.

Quote:
And besides, everyone knows that the people wasting their time in church donate to charity all the time. Even if all they do is give money at collection time.
NOTE: I do not care if you are religious or not, I have no personal vendetta against religion, and I do not believe I've taken part in this thread, and typically steer clear of religious debate.

That being said, if an Atheist HAS taken it upon themselves to try and get christians to see things the way that they do, then those people who are donating money to the collection plate are, in their minds, wasting that money that could be sent to starving children in third world countries, but instead is being used to help perpetuate the church.



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Old 06-24-2004, 07:14 PM   #65
ShadowTemplar
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Quote:
Originally posted by ET Warrior
That being said, if an Atheist HAS taken it upon themselves to try and get christians to see things the way that they do, then those people who are donating money to the collection plate are, in their minds, wasting that money that could be sent to starving children in third world countries, but instead is being used to help perpetuate the church.
"ET makes a great point, as he so frequently does"

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