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Old 06-25-2004, 02:12 PM   #1
KommisarPHD
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What happened to Outcast???

When i first purchased this game and played it, i loved it. The Multiplayer was tons of fun and it had a great single player game. As with many games, i got bored and eventually stopped playing. Just last night i reinstalled it and decided i was gonna go online and have some fun. Well little did i know, the Jedi Outcast community dosn't like having fun. Every server i go into, people are just standing around like this is some kind of MMO game, chatting it up and watching 2 people duel every 5 minutes. "ONLY DUELS" is what i see on almost all good saber servers. Well i finally find a decent one with some people that are actually fighting a FFA. And bam! i get put to sleep because i was fighting with 4 people. LOL. You people need to serously lighten up, IF YOU ARN'T DUELING, have a small FFA with a couple people in a different part of the map...and if you don't approve of that. YOU NEED A DIFFERENT GAME!! "So and so LAMED ME!!!" is what i see said about 30 times per game....feels like im playing with a bunch of 12 year olds. This is the kind of thing that destroys games and their communitys. No new players are gonna want in because your all so uptight, and when they do come in, they get insulted and banned from servers for attacking someone. Get over your Duels, have some fun. IT IS A FPS, NOT AN MMORPG.


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Old 06-25-2004, 07:34 PM   #2
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Hoo boy...

This issue has been brought up more times than I can count. Believe me, this is not something new by any means.

It's hard to say when the phenomena started exactly, but I would say shortly after the game became a year old. Some people/clans decided to create "honorz" servers. It's based on the idea that it's poor sportsmanship to frag someone while they're chatting. However, these servers take the "honor" concept to extremes, as you have no doubt noticed.

It quickly spread like a virus, and now you have to look very carefully to find a competitive server in JO.

JA suffers from the same problem. The whole thing's really divided the community. In fact, I tend to think "honorz" games were partially, if not mostly, responsible for driving away many gamers from JO and has probably done some damage to JA as well.

For competitive servers, try Amidala's Chop Shop servers. They're a blast.


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Old 06-26-2004, 02:57 PM   #3
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I've come to the conclusion that 95% of the players and admins these days are totally uptight nerds. The admins are on super dork power trips , they love to silence the server, or sleep everyone. Then they try to reason with everyone "You woulnd't stop fighting and spamming" well no ****, its a game, where you fight.


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Old 06-26-2004, 05:03 PM   #4
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Yeah, that kind of thing really bad in JO, with the possible exception of some CTF servers. The rest are just not even worth playing on except for the Chop Shop servers. In JA, you have another gametype that doesn't lend itself to 'honor', Siege. But the FFA in both games are really not FFA anymore, just dueling with 'rules'.


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Old 06-26-2004, 11:09 PM   #5
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From what I know of duel, it is fun if you're really good at it, because you can beat alot of opponents, but if you're crap, you will just die and die and die, and it's initially no fun. But, practice makes perfect and it is an art that needs to be perfected.

For people who can't perfect the art of duel, there's always ffa where even a n00b can win.

Quote: "It's based on the idea that it's poor sportsmanship to frag someone while they're chatting. However, these servers take the "honor" concept to extremes, as you have no doubt noticed."

- Err...maybe because it IS bad sportsmanship. I mean, we play jedis who wield lightsabers. To say that there is no sportsmanship in swordfighting (even in a computer game, and even with swords of light), is either you not wanting to admit the truth about this game, or just plain ignorance about swordfighting/fencing/etc.

If players can't own proper swords and feel honourable, I think jk2 is a supplement for this.

Just live with it or find another game.
You're fighting with swords now, not bfgs and quad dmg.
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Old 06-26-2004, 11:12 PM   #6
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Most ideas about swordplay is deriven from movies nowadays anyway and the concept of honour is strong in all of them.

Take: The last samurai, for example, or ANY of the kenshin anime series.

my god, there are loads out there with...omg...the INHERANT theme of honour. I wonder what would happen if you made a game where you fight with swords of light against other people also with swords of light, that...omg, could it be...it yet 'another' example!

Live with it.
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Old 06-26-2004, 11:20 PM   #7
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Still, it is kind of annoying, since the game is marketed as an FPS (first person shooter. The 'honor' people think that guns are 'lame', and are disgusting travesties of what makes the game 'fun' (only to them, of course, but who cares about anyone else?).

It's kind of funny to watch these guys running around shouting 'lamer!' and assorted curses. Then you realize it's not a joke... Ugh. If they don't like major parts of the game, then why did they buy a first person shooter? There's no accounting for such foolishness.

Go play KotOR if you want to RP Star Wars. It might be a little better for these people, since its an RPG (Role Playing Game).


"Words are deeds." - Wittgenstein
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Old 06-26-2004, 11:41 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by HiveRougie
For people who can't perfect the art of duel, there's always ffa where even a n00b can win.

That's not true.

Quote:
Err...maybe because it IS bad sportsmanship. I mean, we play jedis who wield lightsabers. To say that there is no sportsmanship in swordfighting (even in a computer game, and even with swords of light), is either you not wanting to admit the truth about this game, or just plain ignorance about swordfighting/fencing/etc.

There's nothing in the manual or official literature for the game that states this, so it doesn't matter.

Quote:
If players can't own proper swords and feel honourable, I think jk2 is a supplement for this.

It's a supplement for wanting to be a Jedi.

Quote:
Just live with it or find another game.
You're fighting with swords now, not bfgs and quad dmg.
And Bryars, E-11 Blaster Rifles, and so on.

Quote:
Most ideas about swordplay is deriven from movies nowadays anyway and the concept of honour is strong in all of them.

Take: The last samurai, for example, or ANY of the kenshin anime series.

my god, there are loads out there with...omg...the INHERANT theme of honour. I wonder what would happen if you made a game where you fight with swords of light against other people also with swords of light, that...omg, could it be...it yet 'another' example!

Live with it.

But, OMG! That has nothing to do with this game! In fact, Vader struck Obi-Wan while he had his saber down!
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Old 06-27-2004, 12:15 PM   #9
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And onto this thread.

Quote: "There's nothing in the manual or official literature for the game that states this, so it doesn't matter."

^ in relation to being a good sportsman.

- I severely doubt that Raven even 'considered' many of the honour-elements that have 'developed' in this game. Otherwise they would have done something to create clear definitions between the two styles of play (honourable play, and unhonourable/FFA play).

Quote: "It's a supplement for wanting to be a Jedi."

- That's just one 'other' supplement, it does not mean it is the only one.

Quote: "But, OMG! That has nothing to do with this game! In fact, Vader struck Obi-Wan while he had his saber down!"

- That's the lamest arguement I've seen in some time.

And now to quote from Samuel Dravis.

Quote: "Still, it is kind of annoying, since the game is marketed as an FPS (first person shooter. The 'honor' people think that guns are 'lame', and are disgusting travesties of what makes the game 'fun' (only to them, of course, but who cares about anyone else?)."

- The honour-theme is just something that has developed as an un-planned culture within the game. Just because something is labled FFA, it simply doesn't mean that you can log in and go on a kill-spree. You are up against real people who have their own agenda, some of which is that they simply want to go on and watch a duel or be generally social.

I realise that alot of people actually 'want' to go on mad saber-rampages, but you just to live with the way the game has developed. I'm sure that if you put aside your no-skill kill-spree tendancies, you would start to develop actual skills with a saber through such mediums as duel.
And don't expect (as so many of my own padawan learners have done) that you will be a good saberist within a day, no, it takes months of constant duelling and practice, but when you are this good, you will go into duel and you will totally, and utterly enjoy the match 100x more than how you played before.

I am preaching this, lol.

Quote: "Go play KotOR if you want to RP Star Wars. It might be a little better for these people, since its an RPG (Role Playing Game)."

- Well KOTOR isn't multiplayer against other ppl (I don't think). And as everyone knows, bots suck.
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Old 06-27-2004, 01:23 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by HiveRougie
The honour-theme is just something that has developed as an un-planned culture within the game. Just because something is labled FFA, it simply doesn't mean that you can log in and go on a kill-spree. You are up against real people who have their own agenda, some of which is that they simply want to go on and watch a duel or be generally social.

I realise that alot of people actually 'want' to go on mad saber-rampages, but you just to live with the way the game has developed. I'm sure that if you put aside your no-skill kill-spree tendancies, you would start to develop actual skills with a saber through such mediums as duel.
And don't expect (as so many of my own padawan learners have done) that you will be a good saberist within a day, no, it takes months of constant duelling and practice, but when you are this good, you will go into duel and you will totally, and utterly enjoy the match 100x more than how you played before.

I am preaching this, lol.
'Saber mad', 'no-skill kill-spree tendencies'? I it takes some skill, at least, to get high in the kill rank on a 'true' FFA. Duel makes you where you limit yourself to one oppenent, and outlaws guns etc, so you effectively make the game easier than if you played it as a true FFA.

Quote:
Originally posted by HiveRougie
Well KOTOR isn't multiplayer against other ppl (I don't think). And as everyone knows, bots suck.
No, it isn't. Play NWN then. You can't have everything. You know, it's funny how bots have no idea of 'honorable' fighting. Maybe it was actually planned that way? Hmmm? I mean, they don't whine 'lame' all the time, they don't care about chatkilling...they're obviously very, very bad bots. I mean, the audacity to attack you when you have your saber down!

Lol, just harassing you. I don't really play anything but Chopshop occasionally in JO, and that's good enough for me. I play JA's Siege mode a lot more - which, I might add, is completely impossible to play with honor and win. What does that say to you?


"Words are deeds." - Wittgenstein
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Old 06-27-2004, 02:51 PM   #11
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One prevalent memory in my mind when it comes to FFA, is myself watching a full server of players just trying to DFA eachother in the courtyard. A whole serv, just dfa'ing constantly, all over the place.
At that moment, I said to myself that FF was a no-skill gametype.

Yes, you can have 1 on 1 FF fights with force and all that, but generally it degenerates into pp but with drain, or absorb. Most of those 1 on 1 FF fights end with someone pulling someone, then backslashing them. Of which requires no skill.

Quote: "You know, it's funny how bots have no idea of 'honorable' fighting. Maybe it was actually planned that way?"

- Lol, I don't think programmers are that good at AI to be able to pull it off.
The bots, even on jedi master skill setting, are just padawans really..
Dispose of them like all padawans and pull/backslash them.

btw, Haven't played JA except for the demo. Wouldn't be able to comment.
Although it does look like a very saber based game, with all those uber styles :O
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Old 06-30-2004, 07:56 AM   #12
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the thing that really drew me to jk mp was the dueling servers -- it's nice to be able to go on a server and not be constantly stressed out worrying about being shot in the back.

yes, the game was designed for total mayhem all the time, and no, the developers wouldn't have changed a thing even if they had known how the community was going to evolve. jka is basically the same game as jko -- they didn't add any "honorable" dimensions to it or make any concessions for how the jko community developed.

and that's fine. kommisar, you say you got bored of the game initially, but came back just for kicks (if i may paraphrase). and that's exactly what happens with fps games -- people play for awhile, then get burned out and move on to something else. i sincerly believe that the way the mp community has evolved has actually saved jko and jka from extinction -- everyone would be tired of them by now if they were played like other fps games.

as for the guns...well, go play a war-based fps if you want good guns. jk's suck.
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Old 06-30-2004, 05:30 PM   #13
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Thumbs up

Damn good reply there.
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Old 06-30-2004, 09:29 PM   #14
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Post You've heard this rant before haven't you?

Let's roll out the facts for those still in denial:


1) The Jedi Knight/Dark Forces series is about more than sabers. It always has been.

2) Jedi Outcast was designed from the ground up with multiple weapons, force powers and items. The lightsaber is just one of many weapons to be used in the game. This was intentional by the developers. This was not changed in subsequent patches or in Jedi Academy.
The Developers of the game never intended players to fight with "honor". Duels were setup to be seperate from the overall game, because the majority of the game is focused on kill or be killed using whatever weapons and powers come to hand. And since Duels are seperate, any complaints about not being able to duel in the middle of a warzone are just whining, frankly.

3) The majority of game modes are geared towards "all weapons" play. While it's possible to play sabers only, no force with most modes, this is not the default option, rather the game was built in "vanilla" mode with everyone on.

4) The Single Player game mode has NOTHING to do with the multiplayer game mode. In Jedi Academy and Jedi Outcast one can essentially win the game (especially in the former case) using only the saber and force once you get past the first couple of levels (in the case of JK2 especially since you don't get the saber right away). Single Player and Multiplayer are designed differently, so you have different moves, the damages are different, and AI behaves differently than human players and bots. So there is really no comparison between them. So what if the SP game is basically saber friendly? The guns in that mode suck compared to the MP guns.

5) The Movies are no field for comparison with this. Movies have storylines and character development. The heroes have what we like to call "character shields". After all, we know that Obi-Wan and Anakin can't die in the Prequels, for example. But it's worth pointing out that in the movies, the JK fans' concept of "honor" does not exist. No Jedi/Sith ever bows except in the cases of bowing to Senators and the Chancellor (NOT before or after a saber duel). There is no "chatting" or "saber down = peace" rule in the movies or the Jedi Code. There is no "sabers only" rule for Jedi either. Rememer we see Luke using a blaster, even after he's become a "Jedi Knight." The Jedi/Sith also use Force powers on each other during "duels" so this can't be put forth as the model for honor either.

6) Jedi Academy/Outcast are not RPG's. Thus role playing that you are a Jedi fighting in honorable combat against other honorable Jedi adhereing to some made up honor code is completely in the mind's of players, not part of the game. These games are first person shooters with melee combat bolted on.

The only "role playing" elements that exist in the game are in the SINGLE PLAYER component. Note #4 above.
Since SP & MP are so completely different, it makes little sense to try to force the round SP peg into the square MP hole.


Notions that Jedi are Samurai or Kendo Masters don't stack up either. The Jedi are a secret police force/enforcers for the Republic, not feudal lords or warrior farmers who go to battle for their Emperor. There's no sepuku in the Jedi philosophy. And Samurai/Keno masters don't have the Force. Swords are nothing like lightsabers in their properties (even if they are both technically melee weapons). Etc...


"Sportsmanship" doesn't enter into it either, because in this game you're SUPPOSED to be killing players and the weapons are designed for that purpose.

This would be akin to complaining about being tackled in American Football. It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Sportsmanship is not whining when you lose and not gloating when you win. It's following the rules of the sport (and the rules of this sport don't include "honor"). Making up rules as you go along and then getting angry when other people don't follow them is silly. It's the "honor" people who are unsportsmanlike when they get killed and then whine "oh, but you didn't REALLY win, because I was typing/had my saber down/you forgot to bow/you used a cheap power or move I couldn't counter." It's the honor people who are unsportsmanlike when they ban/votekick somebody for beating them fair and square according to the rules Raven built into the game. If you don't want guns on your server, then turn off guns on your server! If you don't want duels to be interrupted, switch to Duel mode! So easy and let people continue to whine and moan that their rights are being violated because "honor" is not respected.

And everybody knows that if you are calling time-out constantly you're going to piss people off who actually want to play the game.


"Honor" in Jedi Outcast is an outdated concept that is really infuriating to those who wish to play the game as it was designed.

While "honor" has basically taken over the Jedi Outcast community, the majority of Jedi Academy servers still aren't setup for it. That is, most servers have all weapons and most force powers enabled and a large percentage are non/Duel and non/FFA.


It's telling that in order for "honor" to work you have to be using an admin MOD (key word here is MOD, that is a modification of the game that Raven had nothing to do with creating).


Wanting to make up "honor" rules and play by them in a game is a person's choice, but to whine and moan when others don't follow them and say that the community has "gone to hell" is just ridiculous.

It's also unrealistic to say "if you want to play that way (without "Honor") go play some other game" too because there are plenty of reasons to play these games besides wanting to roleplay honorable Jedi.

For instance, the majority of characters in the movies are NOT Jedi or Sith. They use non-saber weapons for the most part, and other things. This is Star Wars. So there aren't a lot of online Star Wars games that are first person shooters to choose from. As of now, JK2 and JA are it (JK/MotS exist, but they are very small due to the fact that they are over 6 years old and lack dedicated server support). Playing Quake3 just doesn't cut it if you want Star Wars FPS action. You don't get Force powers either. Force+Guns is very different than just Guns in some other game. Quake3 and UT2k4 don't have Star Wars weapons, characters or locations. It's just not the same.

Honor isn't part of the game, it's made up by some players. Not everyone agrees with it! "Non-honor" is actually the default state of the game, so those who don't adhere to the honor code are actually the "right" ones, and the "honor" people should be more accomodating.

"Honor" players are basically being elitest snobs, by saying their highly limited choice of play method is the only one, and anyone who disagrees isn't a true player/fan of the series. What a load of BS.

So yes, I will continue to promote the gospel of "anti-honor" as long as there are people out there whining about "being lamed" etc. Thankfully many admins are waking up to the fact and hosting "no rules" servers and promoting it. It's ridiculous if players who buy the game can't find servers to play it on, finding only people h0n0r dueling and chatting.


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Old 06-30-2004, 09:38 PM   #15
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With my rant out of the way, the thing that kept me going with JK2 was CTF.

Full Force CTF with all weapons was simply a unique way to play an FPS, and a lot of fun for me.

With JA, it's Siege. You have force, guns, sabers, vehicles, all in the Star Wars setting.

Dueling can be fun, but for me it's the overall scope of things, not just one on one. I got bored with one on one in the early days of JK2, for the most part. I still do a challenge now and then, but that's it for the most part.

If the game were only about dueling, they could have saved a lot of time and money by leaving out everything else and they could have refined the dueling aspect so more people would like it. Obviously its not to everyone's liking, evidenced by the dozens of "saber modifications" out for both games, with several in the works.


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Old 06-30-2004, 10:02 PM   #16
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*sniff*

that was beautiful, Kurgan. Just simply beautiful!
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Old 07-01-2004, 12:25 AM   #17
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^^^

Indeed, great post Kurgan. After reading HiveRougie's other posts on this board all I can say is, "Ahhhh the "honourz" are comin back to 1.02? Bummer...."

*Rushes off to reinstall JO & "lame" the servers*

l-o-l (<0>) l-o-l

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Old 07-01-2004, 12:43 AM   #18
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What i really love are the admins that run around empowered "laming" everyone then refuse to duel you.....and when you finally kill him after he loses emp while hes running around with his saber out, he kicks you....rofl gotta love it. A lot of you need to learn to lighten up about dieing in this game, you don't lose anything and it dosn't even set you back....so whats the big deal? you can still chat while dead....it dosn't take loading time to spawn


"I'm hip about time, but i just gotta go"
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Old 07-01-2004, 12:55 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by KommisarPHD
What i really love are the admins that run around empowered "laming" everyone
Thats 1 of the main reasons I stuck with 1.02. None of those ignorent admin mods. I'd of probably given .04 a chance if it wasn't for getting slapped, slept, exploded, then banned from the 10 servers I tried. & it seems most of the whiners migrated on to .04, glad I didn't have to deal with them

Your completly correct when you say "players" gotta lighten up. Your pixel character dies, s/he respawns no big deal. Play the game, have some fun. Thats what they bought it for, right?

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Old 07-01-2004, 01:19 AM   #20
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If Jedi Academy had been an expansion pack for Jedi Outcast then we would all still be playing on the same servers and we could all enjoy the same game.

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Old 07-01-2004, 01:36 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by RoxStar
If Jedi Academy had been an expansion pack for Jedi Outcast then we would all still be playing on the same servers and we could all enjoy the same game.




I don't mind the honor thing, it's a game about Jedi, fighting...

The rules come from medieval England where duels were the proper way to settle things, duels with swords, to the death.


Some people like that idealistic England, and are just trying to portray it in a game.

If you don't like it, move on to another server.

Personally, I like ffas with no rules, and I like the honor thing. It is once again, all dependent on the server.




That's the last time I buy anything just because it's furry!

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Old 07-01-2004, 08:59 AM   #22
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I haven't played Jedi Outcast in forever, and I'm not planning to play it for a while. I play Jedi Academy, but the same crap has happened there.

Just some words from me:

HONOR STUFF IS CRAP, WHICH NEVER HAPPENED IN THE MOVIES, NOR SHOULD IT BE HAPPENDING NOW.





- Former Star Wars: Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy, Star Wars: Battlefront, and Star Wars: Battlefront II modder. Used to go by the name "Majin Revan."
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Old 07-01-2004, 01:22 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
1) The Jedi Knight/Dark Forces series is about more than sabers. It always has been.
Exactly. Kyle wasn't exactly sabering opponents in Dark Forces. The entire game was guns-only. Even the first few SP levels for JK and JO are guns-only affairs.

Quote:
6) Jedi Academy/Outcast are not RPG's. Thus role playing that you are a Jedi fighting in honorable combat against other honorable Jedi adhereing to some made up honor code is completely in the mind's of players, not part of the game. These games are first person shooters with melee combat bolted on.
I've never really understood why someone would try to make JO and JA into an RPG, especially since they could get KOTOR. Not only is it a great RPG, but it's one of the best Star Wars games out there. Then they could choose the "honorable" paths and choices in the game...though it's worth noting that the game has no "Saber down=peace" rules.

A very good post indeed, Kurgan.


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Old 07-02-2004, 05:22 AM   #24
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Re: You've heard this rant before haven't you?

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
It's ridiculous if players who buy the game can't find servers to play it on, finding only people h0n0r dueling and chatting.
and what you are refusing to accept is that server owner who pay for their server they host are unwilling to let destroy the gameplay they choose by ppl who didn't respect that...

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Old 07-02-2004, 09:40 PM   #25
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Well let's get something straight here.
There is nothing this thread can do to change the game to cater for either side of this discussion, no matter what is said.

Now, you can argue all you want about 'vaguely' related (so-called) 'facts', like:

"Jedis don't fight with honour, therefore nobody in Jk2 should fight with honour."

- Where any simple leap of realisation can show us that we may control 'jedi' characters, but we are 'not' jedis IRL and therefore we are not bound by whatever code of conducts George Lucas defined for them. For all I care, Luke Skywalker can gank every other jedi in sight and I don't care. I'm not going to act like him. I'm going to act like 'I want to act', and if that means that I want to play with honour in the game, I can do so.

Does this automatically mean that it applies to all other players? - No. It just means that if they do not follow similar lines of honour or go away when I tell them to, I will deal with them ffa-style until they get the point.
Because, getting the point of the matter that some ppl want to play one way and others another, is what this whole thing is all about. People wanting to play jk2 like it's quake, and others wanting something deeper and more involving.

Now to quote:

"1) The Jedi Knight/Dark Forces series is about more than sabers. It always has been."

- They just wanted players to have a wider choice of weaponry in the 1-9 list than just a lightsaber. However developer choices of what a game should be like, by no means reflects player-caused development-over-time. Ie. Developers may make a game one way, but as the game 'matures' it changes in ways that the developers didn't predict.

Quote: "The Developers of the game never intended players to fight with "honor". Duels were setup to be seperate from the overall game, because the majority of the game is focused on kill or be killed using whatever weapons and powers come to hand."

- The developers have no say in how players should act once a game has been released. I could play jk2 just for the RP aspect if I wanted to (Not that i would, but still...).
You must understand that the 'majority' as you say, who are focused on kill or be killed, are basically sheep who are playing the game as the developers planned and not thinking or acting outside the box (As so to speak).
The majority don't want to see or just don't realise that there can be more to a game than what the developer initially intends. A developer will create a game in a specific way, just to cater for as many people as possible.

ie. What would be more profitable and cater for the majority of gamers? - A game that was (For example) 100% Roleplay, but you could hold guns and sabers, although never shoot them, just talk, OR, a game where you can use those guns and shoot whoever you want in typical run-of-the-mill quake-style (Which has already proven to be a popular method).
And so, the developer chooses the popular method.

Although, IMO, the developers didn't even think of the honour concept, and if they did, they probably didn't think it would cater for the majority.

JK games are made to cater for the majority, that is ALL. If the majority were honour gamers, I don't even have to guess what they'd make the game like.

3) was basically just answered, and so..

quote: "4) The Single Player game mode has NOTHING to do with the multiplayer game mode."

State the obvious.

quote: "5) The Movies are no field for comparison with this."

- You are a hypocrite because you contradicted your own words in the rest of 5) which said...

"5) (Follow-up) But it's worth pointing out that in the movies, the JK fans' concept of "honor" does not exist. No Jedi/Sith ever bows except in the cases of bowing to Senators and the Chancellor (NOT before or after a saber duel). "

- This is just nit-picking really, but I thought I should point it out to discredit your post in regards to your credibility.

Quote: "6) Jedi Academy/Outcast are not RPG's. Thus role playing that you are a Jedi fighting in honorable combat against other honorable Jedi adhereing to some made up honor code is completely in the mind's of players, not part of the game. These games are first person shooters with melee combat bolted on."

- I might as well reiterate this fact, since Kurgan was so kind as to make a post with the 'same' arguements, all with the same inherant flaw in them.
That flaw being that 'games change', and if an online game is any way the same to the online game that developers made years ago, I am pretty god damn impressed with the development 'genius' of the developers, because, it would take, a genius, perhaps even a psychic to predict how an online multiplayer game will morph/change as it's released.

Fighting against the honour-concept is basically saying: "Look, I play this game the way the developers said I should. You better stop playing it a different way, or I'm going to have to impose myself on your game style until you quit it."

You are stopping creativity and 'game development' in a sense. A weak arguement, that's true, but it's also true that some people can't think for themselves and can't compete either. So they get pissed and come to these boards and compain about other people doing something you can't/don't want to.

Quote: "Notions that Jedi are Samurai or Kendo Masters don't stack up either. The Jedi are a secret police force/enforcers for the Republic, not feudal lords or warrior farmers who go to battle for their Emperor. There's no sepuku in the Jedi philosophy. And Samurai/Keno masters don't have the Force. Swords are nothing like lightsabers in their properties (even if they are both technically melee weapons). Etc..."

- Again, IRL ppl are not jedis, we just play jedi characters, so applying George Lucas' jedi ideology to real people, is stupid imo. People will play the game the way they want. If that means that they play it like their samurai/kendo heroes (most likely from anime or some movie), then let them.

This arguement is basically about two beliefs.

One side believes this game should only be played with all weapons, everyone versus everyone, and the other side believes that the game should be played with honour since we go around with lightsabers which are basically swords (not matter what physics you say negate the matter).

The only way to solve this thread is to segregate the two sides and let them go their own ways, but unfortunately that'll never happen, because this isn't a perfect world.

Oh, and I love this one...

Quote: "Honor" in Jedi Outcast is an outdated concept that is really infuriating to those who wish to play the game as it was designed."

- No. Honour is a new concept that was made to segregate n00bs from people who actually knew what they were doing.
So how a new concept is 'outdated' in comparison to 'the way the developers intended' (Which would be the first concept), is just beyond my understanding. Either I don't understand what you meant, or you (Kurgan) are a hypocrite yet again.

Quote: "HONOR STUFF IS CRAP, WHICH NEVER HAPPENED IN THE MOVIES, NOR SHOULD IT BE HAPPENDING NOW."

- lol, that reply sounds like we actually play the movies themselves, maybe IRL too :P haha

Yes, yes, this honour 'crap' should not be happening! IT'S BAD!! BAD BAD BAD!!

Down doggie down.
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Old 07-02-2004, 10:03 PM   #26
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How about we settle this properly?

I'll duel anyone (Server ping permitted) in Jk2 v1.02 who thinks honour-gaming/duel is 'crap'..
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Old 07-04-2004, 04:12 PM   #27
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No wonder your whining about pulling and backstab, play Jk 1.04 and then shut up.
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Old 07-04-2004, 08:31 PM   #28
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Quote:
No wonder your whining about pulling and backstab, play Jk 1.04 and then shut up.
1.04 is a different game completely. You'll never catch me playing that PoS.

Fine for them to make a patch to fix problems, but change the entire physics engine in the process and you've got an entirely new game.

Wtf @ 1.04's version of DFA + Wtf x2 @ 1.04's version of a saber physics engine.
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Old 07-05-2004, 06:29 PM   #29
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lol, 1.02 is a joke. If you enjoy someone turning in the air while dfa'ing and the saber not even having to hit you to kill you, then you're welcome to it. Not forgetting to mention the broken combo chaining and the bug where you can have all force powers at once. Yeah, 1.02 lol.. gg hf. You must just be one of the bitter players who refused to adapt to the updated and above all, FIXED and REPAIRED gameplay.


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Old 07-06-2004, 11:58 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by vert1go
lol, 1.02 is a joke. If you enjoy someone turning in the air while dfa'ing and the saber not even having to hit you to kill you, then you're welcome to it. Not forgetting to mention the broken combo chaining and the bug where you can have all force powers at once. Yeah, 1.02 lol.. gg hf. You must just be one of the bitter players who refused to adapt to the updated and above all, FIXED and REPAIRED gameplay.
Firstly, people who use high sensitivity to dfa are complete idiots. They totally uncoordinate their strike and are dazed for seconds after dfa'ing. For a skilled opponent, an enemy who does this can easily be killed. I've duelled near 10000 times since I came back online about a month ago, I haven't seen one person do it. I think they learnt their lesson that it's no effective.
Granted, some still use high sensitivity for backslash, but it generally only hits you once anyway and it's your own fault if you get backslashed.

High-sens dfas just don't happen anymore in 1.02.

Secondly, I have no idea what you're on about with chained moves. Yellow and Blue styles do them rather standardly and predictably.
Predictability is a bad thing also though. If the enemy knows what you'll swing like, they can counter your angle.

Thirdly, I dunno about that force power cheat. I've had it myself a few times, never been able to replicate it and don't really think it affects the game that much because it isn't widespread at all.

Fourthly, 1.04 is a nerfed Jk2 for n00bs who didn't like getting backslashed and dfa'd by far more skilled players.
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Old 07-07-2004, 12:55 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by HiveRougie
10000 times since I came back online about a month ago,

High-sens dfas just don't happen anymore in 1.02.

Fourthly, 1.02 is for n00bs who like getting backslashed and dfa'd by far more players.
10000 times. Right. No one can duel that much.

Erm, yes it does.

Let me edit that paragraph.
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Old 07-08-2004, 02:13 AM   #32
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"N00bs"

A couple of points:
With regards to being a "N00B", heh. Yep, after all this time, I've finally felt flush enough to drop the change on this game. Feels good to have a new game, lots of new aspects to explore, no boredom yet, all that. Being a JKII "N00B" is fun.
In gaming, I've been playing since I stumbled on something called "Pong" in 1975. Asteroids, Joust, and a lot of others followed. Many Quarters lined up. PC's lagged behind Arcades for many years in graphics before taking the lead.
Online gaming for me started kinda late, in 1996 with QuakeWorld. I well remember playing "hide-and-seek" in supposedly FFA servers and berating newcomers who spammed grenades like diarrhea. So the notion of "honor" as a grass roots movement among players, staking out new turf against the grain, is no more new to me than gaming itself.
Uptight was the word that jumped out at me when I got berated for plunging in (with more than a single beer in me, I must admit) sabering everything in sight for my first online JKII game. I took that approach out of the exhilaration of using a saber on real players for the first time; doubtless inconcievable to folks playing an ageing game like JKII, but hey, it takes all kinds. That's the philosophy that made me take a step back and play it thier way, if only to give it a chance.
I like it, but not for all occasions.
Furthermore, there is a dimension to honor that seems to be lacking: noblesse oblige. Where are the charitable knights helping the padawans learn the techniques that will help them to survive? Where is the reserve, the refusal to rush to snap judgements, the willingness to believe that today's padawan can be tomorrow's master? I don't believe mastery begins and ends with how one uses a saber. Mastery begins in the heart.
HiveRougie stated that this thread will not solve the issues or change minds. Doubless this is true insamuch as one expects to move one's opponents- but- "there is another."

If there is a fashion of combat that is being under-served in the JKII community, build it, and they will come. See if you can't cultivate allies amongst server admins, or heaven forbid start one up! If you really have the numbers, start up a thread for recruiting like-minded warriors.
The "honor" crowd being reviled has built something for themselves - the best revenge is living well: build your own. If you don't have the vision or the gumption to create the environment you want and need, you are the whiner, not them.
I say this as a friend; I'd like some more variety in the server scene. But as the saying goes, there ain't no such thing as a free lunch. Thier servers belong to them: find or roll your own.


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severely punished.
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Old 07-08-2004, 12:24 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by RojaN
Furthermore, there is a dimension to honor that seems to be lacking: noblesse oblige. Where are the charitable knights helping the padawans learn the techniques that will help them to survive? Where is the reserve, the refusal to rush to snap judgements, the willingness to believe that today's padawan can be tomorrow's master? I don't believe mastery begins and ends with how one uses a saber. Mastery begins in the heart.
And that, I believe, is the root of the problem. I honestly think "honor" servers wouldn't get such a bad rap if they tried to be friendlier and more understanding towards other gamers. The problem is that so many of them are run by people who just want to run their own little virtual world where they're a dictator, ruthlessly humiliating and crushing bewildered newcomers who were never explained the server rules. Such behavior poisons the minds of some gamers, who try to impose the same rules on competitive servers. Now I understand that not all "honor" gamers are like that, but too many of them seem to fall under that generalization.

Quite honestly, if "honor" servers were just more understanding and if they limited establishing such rules to their own servers, there wouldn't be as much of a problem.

Btw, welcome to Lucasforums, RojaN.


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