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Old 07-13-2004, 01:03 AM   #41
Skinkie
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The real way that music hits the top 40:
Quote:
From the New Yorker magazine, by James Surowiecki.
Pop music thrives on repetition. You know a song's a hit when you've heard it so often that you'll be happy never to hear it again. Even by Top 40 standards, though, the playlist adopted a few weeks ago by the Nashville radio station WQZQ was extreme. On May 23rd, Billboard reported, the station played Don't Tell Me, the new single by Avril Lavigne, three times an hour, every hour, between midnight and 6 a.m. This didn't have much to do with the tastes of WQZQ's d.j.s or listeners. Instead, an independent promoter working for Lavigne's record label had effectively paid the station to play the song. "Don't Tell Me" had been hovering just outside Billboard's list of the country's ten most frequently played songs, which radio programmers use to decide what singles get airtime. The extra spins the promoter bought—sometimes called "spot buys," because what's really being bought are blocks of ad time, as with an infomercial—were meant to bump "Don't Tell Me" up the list. By early June, Lavigne had a Top 10 hit.
She also had a lot of angry music fans to contend with. Spot buys may be legal, but to most people they're the "new payola," a modern-day equivalent of Alan Freed's taking money under the table to play rock-and-roll records. (Freed called the payments "consulting fees.") It's an obvious comparison, but a misplaced one. Spot buys aren't the same as old-fashioned payola. They're worse.
"Payola" became a household word in the fifties, when a host of d.j.s were found to be playing songs in exchange for favors and money, but the practice is as old as pop music itself. A century ago, songwriters routinely paid vaudeville singers to perform their tunes, hoping to goose demand for sheet music. In the thirties, music publishers paid off radio bandleaders. And although some forms of payola were outlawed after the mid-century scandals, various loopholes allowed other incarnations to thrive, under the guise of independent promotion. With money from the record companies, promoters used oblique tactics—subsidies, gifts, "research funds"—to encourage radio stations to add new singles to their playlists. By 2000, tens of millions of dollars a year were being spent on what you might call legal payola, and although bad publicity has severely curtailed the promotion business, paying to play is still integral to the way radio works.
Despite its sleazy reputation, payola has a certain rationale. In a typical year, upward of seven or eight hundred CDs are issued each week. Not even the most dedicated program director can hope to sift through all the new songs. So stations need a way to filter the possible hits from the certain bombs. Pay-for-play schemes provide one rough-and-ready way to do this, because they involve what economists call signalling. By putting money behind a record, a label signals its belief that the record has a chance to be a hit; no company will spend a lot of money trying to sell something it doesn't have high hopes for. And hits, of course, are the only thing that radio cares about.
You can see the same process at work in many other businesses, too. Supermarkets and drugstores accept billions of dollars a year in "slotting fees" to position products at the end of an aisle or at eye level. Book chains sell space on the tables at the front of their stores. And record stores accept advertising dollars from labels to push certain albums. Here, too, being willing to shell out for a good space on the shelf is a statement about how much you think people will want your product.
This is, at best, a flawed way to find hits. Unless a record label has a good sense of what people want to hear, it could be buying airtime for flops. And labels that don't have the cash to promote their records are out of luck. But the surprising truth is that, historically speaking, payola has often fostered musical diversity, rather than squelching it. In the fifties, the music industry was dominated by a few giant labels, much as it is today; because of payola (and payola-takers, like Alan Freed), the smaller labels that revolutionized the industry—including Atlantic, Chess, and King Records—were able to get their music on the air. In retail, too, paying for space hasn't necessarily hindered innovation. Even as slotting fees have become more common in supermarkets, for instance, the number of new products that reach the shelves each year has exploded. And the same is true with books. We tend to assume that payola favors the big players because they are the ones with the big money. But the big players also have big sales forces, big brand names, and big connections. They'd win without having to ante up to get in on the action. Paying to play, then, creates a rough marketplace democracy: if you can come up with the cash, you get a shot. But that's all. Labels can buy themselves exposure; they can't buy themselves a hit. If people don't want to hear a record, radio stations won't keep playing it of their own accord.
And that's where spot buys come in. Unlike conventional pay-for-play deals, spot buys like the one that propelled Avril Lavigne into the Top 10 aren't meant to introduce listeners to songs; they're meant to game the playlist system. It's a salient feature of modern media that being thought to be popular can make you more popular. Best-selling books and records are discounted more than slow-selling ones and are positioned more prominently. Songs in Billboard's Top 10 automatically end up being spun more. And if you invest lots of money in creating an illusion of popularity—by, say, buying hours of airplay on the radio—you may end up making yourself more popular. In the process, what real listeners want matters less than it ever did. In "Payola Blues," Neil Young sang to Alan Freed, "The things they're doing today / Will make a saint out of you." He didn't know the half of it.
— James Surowiecki.
stolen from www.melodicrock.com


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Old 07-13-2004, 02:07 AM   #42
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Now I'm disillusioned.

But I always thought Avril Lavigne was just another girlie. She just has a different style.

Nelly Furtado roxors.

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Old 07-13-2004, 02:18 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by edlib
4.) I think song popularity charts, Top 40 radio, TRL, and the like are the worst things to ever happen to music. These things aren't designed to promote music, but to sell radio and TV advertising. The music is secondary, if even that. It's a lowest common denominator thing...
that's exactly what think about the Top 40, too...


Quote:
Originally posted by edlib
So we all end up with lots of obviously crafted and super-produced 3-minute pop songs performed by pretty, young, barely talented (but photogenic,) interchangeable mannequins who can be taught which end of the mic to sing in and a couple of dance steps, and who can be promoted the hell out for a year or two, then quickly disposed when the public's interest wavers for even a millisecond and replaced with someone exactly the same while real musicians with real talent toil thier lifetimes away largely unrecognized.
i don't know about other countries, but you can see this in germany very well.

Top 20 in germany (afaik)

01 O-Zone - Dragostea Din Tei
02 Eamon - F**k It (I Don´t Want You Back)
03 Haiducii - Dragostea Din Tei
04 Mario Winans Feat. Enya & P. Diddy - I Don´t Wanna Know
05 Britney Spears - Everytime
06 Nightwish - Nemo
07 Usher - Yeah
08 Big Brother All Stars - Unser Haus
09 Söhne Mannheims - Vielleicht
10 De Randfichten - Lebt Denn Dr Alte Holzmichl noch ...?
11 Soul Control - Chocolate
12 Oomph! - Brennende Liebe
13 D-12 - My Band
14 Sido - Mein Block
15 Sandy - Unnatural Blond
16 Blue - Breathe Easy
17 Max - Can´t Wait Until Tonight
18 Baby Bash - Suga Suga
19 Christina Feat. Samy D Milan - Dip It Low
20 Maroon 5 - This Love

as you can see, there's pretty much "easy listening" music that is produced to make much money in the charts... (with the "Big Brother All Stars" being the cheapest rip-off (they just took this 80-years song "our house" (i don't really know from whom it's originally... it this "our house, in the middle of the street" thing...), wrote an easy text about how great the big brother house is and let these guys currently sitting in this house "singing" it...) and Nightwish and Oomph being an exception (they both existed for some year and never really gave a damn about the charts afaik...))
there's also the said "Dip It Low" in the charts, which i don't know at all... (because i don't care about the charts myself (i had to ask the guy sitting beside me where i can find them...))




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Old 07-13-2004, 06:48 AM   #44
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why is it a good song?

because it's featured by sammy deluxe.

why isn't it a good song?

because there are versions which are not featured by sammy deluxe.

seriously it can be a good song but after listening to it three times christina's vocals and the whole stuff becomes boring.

the only one who lightens it up is sammy..

^_____^;;


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Old 07-13-2004, 07:26 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by DrMcCoy
as you can see, there's pretty much "easy listening" music that is produced to make much money in the charts... (with the "Big Brother All Stars" being the cheapest rip-off (they just took this 80-years song "our house" (i don't really know from whom it's originally... it this "our house, in the middle of the street" thing...), wrote an easy text about how great the big brother house is and let these guys currently sitting in this house "singing" it...) and Nightwish and Oomph being an exception (they both existed for some year and never really gave a damn about the charts afaik...))
"Our House" was written my the ska band "Madness".
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Old 07-13-2004, 09:59 AM   #46
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Quote:
02 Eamon - F**k It (I Don´t Want You Back)
this song sucks ass.

anyway...about edlib's comments...

Quote:
Everybody is influenced by someone else, and in turn their influence was influenced by someone even further back.
i saw the radio station on a commercial, and since i live in chicago, i used to always listen to b96 (which is the worst radio station ever, btw), and they always did remix crap. like, every 5 minutes for an hour. you couldn't just hear a song w/o it being modified and some loser beatboxing in the background, so i needed to listen to something else b/c i couldn't stand it. so...i thought "hey i've heard of this station, lemme listen to it", and they never do remix crap except for like, two hours on friday and saturday nights (the appropriate times), so i listen to it. it's a top 40 station, and i just liked the music...so i was influenced by a commercial.

Quote:
As a musician, I have always tried to listen to everything that I could, and even forced myself to listen to things I didn't quite like at first, to try to see what others heard in it, and appriciate the effort and talent that goes into making it.
well, that's you. to me, it's like trying to force feed myself a pile of dog s***. that's what it would be like listening to something i didn't like and trying to begin to like it or see why other people like it. i've listened multiple times, not sure if i was clear about that, to different types of music. my mother listens to country music all the time. i can't stand it. i've listened to jazz music. kenny g and what have you. i can't stand it. obviously, everyone knows what classical music sounds like. i don't like it. i've heard easy listening so many times, i don't like it. and christian rock...i won't even go near it to begin with.

Quote:
1.) If you've never heard a song or a band before, then isn't it "new" music (to you anyway) even if it was published years ago?
well, i guess it is "new" to me, but perhaps the style of music is a little bit old. i probably haven't heard of a lot of groups that were around a decade ago, i was only 4-5, but if i listened to them now, i can almost 100% guarantee you that i really wouldn't like the sound of the music.

Quote:
But I also try to be a bit discriminating when I listen. It becomes pretty apparent which hits are made in a spirit of crass commercialism, written to exploit a market and make a buck, and which are the real deal.
honestly, i don't give a rat's ass who the singer is as long as i like the song. i don't care if they're just a tool used by the huge recording company to make money. i don't care if they'll be around for generations and they have actual talent. i'm not going to hear them live. and if i did, if they had talent they'd actually be singing, and i'd know it, or they'd be lip-syncing, and i'd know it. either way, it doesn't make a difference. the majority of the time, i'd be hearing them on the radio or on a cd.

Quote:
3.) Personally, I continue to follow artists I happen to like after they fall from the charts and the public eye. Just because radio isn't playing them anymore doesn't mean they aren't continuing to make great music.
sure, me too. i know i said something like "if beyonce stopped making music i would probably forget about her". i didn't mean "if beyonce stopped making top 40 hits i'd forget about her", i meant "if she stopped making music", and i couldn't find her music anywhere, and i kept listening to new artists, i'd probably forget the music she made.

Quote:
4.) I think song popularity charts, Top 40 radio, TRL, and the like are the worst things to ever happen to music.
i disagree. i see top 40 or trl as a little competition to get your faves to the top. you want to see your favorite song at the top of the top 40 chart? request it. call in to the station and request the song. wanna see it at the top of trl? vote at mtv.com.

Quote:
while real musicians with real talent toil thier lifetimes away largely unrecognized.
all i can really say is, "oh well". that's just the way it works in the music industry.
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Old 07-13-2004, 11:01 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by DrMcCoy

02 Eamon - F**k It (I Don´t Want You Back)
04 Mario Winans Feat. Enya & P. Diddy - I Don´t Wanna Know
05 Britney Spears - Everytime
07 Usher - Yeah
18 Baby Bash - Suga Suga
20 Maroon 5 - This Love
It's this sh*t that makes me wish Eminem would come out with another album.


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"Stupid and inane are the words I like to use."
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Old 07-13-2004, 04:36 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by Thrik
I'm sure there's plenty of people that would question my enjoyment of film soundtracks, and heavy metal, but I really couldn't care less.
Dude.

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Old 07-13-2004, 04:57 PM   #49
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There you go. ;)


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Old 07-13-2004, 05:13 PM   #50
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no ticket??

hehehe.. err.. uuhhmmm... *nods*

..

*blink*

..

well, .. i really do love the indy 3 soundtrack. it is soo.. refreshing..


hmm..

heavy metal, eh? .. ookayy.


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Old 07-13-2004, 05:28 PM   #51
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And my experiment is complete, people will opt for the worse when all I said was one word. I could have been saying dude in a "dude that's awsome!" kind of way, (which I was) but Thrik thought I actually disagreed with his tastes and wondered why on earth he would like music like that.

And for some reason, SamNMax saying "um" seemed to start this whole argument, which i think is weird as SamNMax may have just been expressing his confusion to the situation and total lack of understanding as to what's going on. No Offense

The truth is, I also like movie soundtracks, and this isn't confined to songs that played during the movie, as that's just a compilation album with a movie to back up the sales but the actual music that goes behind the pictures (like John williams, or John Powel)) reason being that i'm an extremely visually driven person and I like to put pictures to sound and music. I can usually listen to a music album (not movie soundtrack) and create situations and pictorial sequences around them, this is me. And heavy metal is usually a great meduim for this (I find it increasingly hard to do this with pop music, but this is my own bad thing, not a reason to hate it).

But now I have to say something to das, because everyone else did. First of all, I'm perfectly fine with Christina Millian being "fly" and me. Not of course I'd really like to know your definition of "fly".
Secondly, I'd like to point out that there are many different types of music beyond country, jazz, easy listening, classical and of course pop. Barring Jazz, I don't like any of them either (I like bits of pop, but only the bits that actually get through from other genre's). Just because you've listened to all of thos listed above diesn't mean you've listened to all different types of music.
Thirdly, A lot of the music you listen to now are renditions or covers of old, good music. You said that if you were to listen to music music from a decade ago, you're 100% sure you'd hate it. Without listening to it, you can't claim that, just getting the gist with a few of the songs isn't good enough either considering the 90's is when all different types of music started uprooting and coming out. And much of todays music is based upon good 90's tunes.
Finally, the whole TRL and top 40's music chart is largely populated with pop songs. Let's also show that pop, meaning popular means that they try and grab more people into it to make it popular. The late Hearsay only got to number one first off because of the tv show "Popstars" and their career slowly declined because the novelty wore off and people found out that they were crap. The reason that such things are populated with pop music is because the industry judges everything against pop music standards. This I don't like. Some people like punk music and dislike pop music. they are both very differnt types of music, and yet Punk is rated against a pop music scale, which is wrong. It's like they've got a set of rules for good music, but that only comes up with pop music, and so because punk doesn't adhear to those rules, they aren't allowed in the charts, and that's just wrong. I feel slightl quezy when songs like "the Ketchup Song" get to number one whilst actualy good songs linger around the bottom of the charts, or noth there at all, simply because som excitably little girls thought it was fun dancing to the song and learning to moves whilst drunk in a club.
But then again, that's the music industry, isn't it?

A guy couldn't get a job because he was black. But hey, that's life isn't it.

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Old 07-13-2004, 06:11 PM   #52
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dude.


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Old 07-14-2004, 12:59 AM   #53
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The real question here is who likes Dark Side of the Moon? Cause man there is a generation spanning album if I've ever heard one. Incredible. Although personally I favor Wish You Were Here.


Just because people think what I say don't make sense, doesn't mean I don't like popsicles.
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Old 07-14-2004, 07:17 AM   #54
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Dude.


Dark Side is amazing. It far surpasses almost everything else Pink Floyd produced in thier career.
However, I'm rather partial to the cynical bitterness that is Animals. What a nasty little album that is.


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Old 07-14-2004, 01:53 PM   #55
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It may be a little nasty, but it is also incredibly good. Nothing like Pigs to get you going in the morning.


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Old 07-14-2004, 11:03 PM   #56
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Yeah,.. it's the most Roger-centric album I think they made. It really forshadowed the themes that would dominate Roger Waters' post-Floyd career.
And the Orwellian imagery really makes the album for me. Pigs, dogs and sheep? Genius.


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Old 07-15-2004, 02:42 PM   #57
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Anyway, you know what a really good rain song is? "The Real Folk Blues", featured on the hit anime show "Cowboy Beebop"


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"Stupid and inane are the words I like to use."
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Old 07-15-2004, 03:50 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by SamNMax
Anyway, you know what a really good rain song is? "The Real Folk Blues", featured on the hit anime show "Cowboy Beebop"
Um...

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Old 07-15-2004, 04:17 PM   #59
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..dude?


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Old 07-15-2004, 04:35 PM   #60
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What? Do I have a boogie?


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"Stupid and inane are the words I like to use."
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Old 07-15-2004, 04:52 PM   #61
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What, are you, Neil, and Ray sitting in some cybercafe together, but you're too shy to speak to each other so you use this board to talk?

Just talk to each other, I'd come over if I didn't feel like giving up my good seat.
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Old 07-16-2004, 10:18 AM   #62
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**Looks from his seat in England to see Ray sitting in the far corner in Germany**

Wow! This is a bigass cybercafe!

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Old 07-16-2004, 11:22 AM   #63
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I know, and it was proudly built by America.

Our tax-dollars at work. USA!USA!USA!
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Old 07-16-2004, 01:56 PM   #64
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*looks over to neil.. .. do you have a webcam on your shoe, or why do you call the waitress all the time..??*



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Old 07-17-2004, 08:53 AM   #65
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At least I'm more subtle than you, you simply hoot and holler at all the waitresses, and then they come by you slap there arses. Don't think I didn't see you.

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Old 07-18-2004, 06:55 AM   #66
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tya.. guess why i am invited to the lads place every 5 minutes while you go once to the gents in the afternoon playing five against willy. dont deny it, i have the webaddress of your camera.


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Old 07-18-2004, 03:52 PM   #67
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Quote:
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tya.. guess why i am invited to the lads place every 5 minutes while you go once to the gents in the afternoon playing five against willy. dont deny it, i have the webaddress of your camera.
Dude, you've got Dr Eds web address there, I'm the guy who gets invited to the girls place every five minutes whilst you go to the gents and wonder why you're all single.

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Old 07-19-2004, 04:59 PM   #68
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just because i told them to take a look at your "infinity" just to see how it equals 0.




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