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Old 07-24-2004, 05:52 PM   #1
VanLingo
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Abortion debate (older thread)

Look, what's done is done. Now that we've seen how much you care about innocent people who have never done anything wrong in their life, why don't you edit your picket sign to "Vote Against Kerry"?

Because he wants to allow abortion clinics in the U.S. And that kills more innocent people every year than the War in Iraq has in total.
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Old 07-24-2004, 06:26 PM   #2
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Originally posted by VanLingo
Because he wants to allow abortion clinics in the U.S. And that kills more innocent people every year than the War in Iraq has in total.
Is it just me or is everything black and white to Republicans? It's like there is no gray area. Abortion is murder period. War is alright period.

If the fetus is terminated before it has a chance to develop a nervous system, then I don't think it's any more murder than using a condom during sex. All you're doing is stopping the growth of a group of cells that may or may not become a human being, but at the time, I don't believe it IS a human being.


I don't condone it as an act of birth control, and mothers deffinately need a limit on how many abortions they are allowed to recieve, but overall I support choice.

What would you do, assuming you're old enough to be able to think about this, if you had a daughter who was 16 years old. Still in high school, planning on college and a good career. Suppose she gets knocked up by a guy who doesn't want to be a father, and will probably leave her when she has her baby. Having that kid could very well ruin her life. High school won't be easy, having to manage a kid, she'll probably drop out. She won't be able to have the normal life a 16 year old girl should have, she almost certainly won't be able to go to college, and the financial strain will probably reach all the way to you. What are you going to do? Force your daughter to carry and birth the child to uphold your set of morals? Or give her the choice to make with her life. Assuming you're old enough to understand what it would be like to have a daughter whom you love unconditionally, that's no black and white situation.



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Old 07-25-2004, 11:04 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally posted by RayJones
that would indirectly mean "vote for bush" and that again would mean vote against gay marriage. also i see no problem with abortion in general. see below.

but i have to add that it's not uncommon that a woman who has already two childs becomes pregnant again (because of known reasons .. ) and doesnt wishes another child or doesnt mind about another child BUT cannot afford it. or maybe it is for health reasons. if that woman is 40 then a pregnancy could be very risky, for both mother and child.
First of all, that's a sick thought -- that women should be allowed to discard a child because of her age. If you don't want a child, you protect yourself!

Let me get this straight, RayJones:

You support gay marriages, but you oppose war because you think that God doesn't like it. News flash: gay marriage is one of the most blasphemous things a person can do! It defies the original institution of God -- the union of man and woman.

Second, you think that war is horrible because of all of the innocent people that it kills, but you support partial-birth abortion?! Okay, maybe I misquote you -- you support early-term abortion. But either way, God creates a soul at conception -- abortion of any kind interrupts His miracle that we call "life".

And third, you believe -- as you stated in the "Super Suze Me..." thread -- that obese people are responsible for their actions and that they know the risks involved in eating fast food. So, basically, in your eyes it's someone's own fault when they ruin their life by eating excessive amounts of junk food, but if they ruin their life by not protecting themself during sex, it's okay to kill the unborn child?! That's ludicrous!

You, RayJones, are the most self-contradicting person I have ever seen. You need to get off of the bandwagon and create some of your own opinions. You bounce from the left wing to the right more than a Pong ball.
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Old 07-25-2004, 01:18 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by VanLingo
News flash: gay marriage is one of the most blasphemous things a person can do! It defies the original institution of God --
News flash: Ray Jones isn't a religious person. He's using your religion against you, but he doesn't necessarily believe it.

Secondly, where does it say in your bible that God creates a soul at conception? And at what point can you really call it a human being? What makes us human? And since any abortion is murder, if a woman falls on her stomach during a pregnancy and it kills the baby is she guilty of manslaughter?

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having a child at 16 doesnt ruins a life. it may, of course, but this is very dependend to the "young parents" and their environment
I misphrased what I meant, I was saying that having that child ruins the life she had planned. Finishing high school will be hard enough, and college will be nearly impossible.

And I again misphrased when I said I dont think that Abortion should be birth control. I mean to say if a girl is irresponsible and ALWAYS getting pregnant and going to get an abortion, that is stupid, and she should have to have the child. But if it happens once, I think it should be her choice.

And all your points you made make it obvious you aren't thinking about it like a father. You're thinking about it like a detached third party ready to judge her for her actions. So you're either too young or too closed-minded to understand.

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2.) Under federal law the father must pay up some cash. The father is as equally responable as the woman in this.
And, as we all know, raising a child is ONLY about having enough money to do it, not having a father role-model to help out and stuff



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Old 07-25-2004, 03:56 PM   #5
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To answer your question about the woman falling: yes, she is. But without intent.

These days, our society (not our nation, but society as a whole) is all about getting what you want as fast as you can, then annulling it.

Like Puff Daddy's sudden name change. He changes his name to try and annull the public's image of him. The image we get is due to his acting without thought of consequence.
And now he's pissin' on people.

Of course, Britney Spears comes to mind. She gets married in a fit of self-indulgence, then dismisses it.

And then you have these obese people who want to blame fast food. "I want FOOD, and I want it NOW!!" Years later, they're suing the service provider for allowing them to indulge their disgusting appetites.

So the lady who falls on her baby by accident is guilty of manslaughter, just as the man who accidentally runs over a water-skier with his boat.
But the difference between falling and aborting a child is that not only does the aborting woman know full well that she is killing a child -- she also knew the consequences before she had promiscuous or unprotected sex.

Oh and -- it's not MY religion, and there is no possible way to use it against me. You see, I actually have standards that are rooted back to the creation of man, not bandwagon beliefs. (Speaking of, I love Kerry's George-W-ripoff website.)
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Old 07-25-2004, 05:37 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by VanLingo
First of all, that's a sick thought -- that women should be allowed to discard a child because of her age. If you don't want a child, you protect yourself!
any method for protection is not 100% sure.

Quote:
Let me get this straight, RayJones:

You support gay marriages, but you oppose war because you think that God doesn't like it. News flash: gay marriage is one of the most blasphemous things a person can do! It defies the original institution of God -- the union of man and woman.
i do not care if it's blasphemous. and i dont even support a religious marriage (at least not christian :|). but why should i bother others with it. people who want to marry should be allowed to marry.
and i dont oppose war because "god doesnt likes it". i oppose it because i dont like it.

Quote:
Second, you think that war is horrible because of all of the innocent people that it kills, but you support partial-birth abortion?! Okay, maybe I misquote you -- you support early-term abortion. But either way, God creates a soul at conception -- abortion of any kind interrupts His miracle that we call "life".
this "miracle" is interupted every day. and i dont say war is horrible because of the innocent people. i say killing innocent people is unnecessary and leads to nothing valuable. i'm not the "something's horrible" type of guy anyway.

Quote:
And third, you believe -- as you stated in the "Super Suze Me..." thread -- that obese people are responsible for their actions and that they know the risks involved in eating fast food. So, basically, in your eyes it's someone's own fault when they ruin their life by eating excessive amounts of junk food, but if they ruin their life by not protecting themself during sex, it's okay to kill the unborn child?! That's ludicrous!
again.. it's not all about protection. you seem to ignore that. and it's not necessarily ruining lifes.

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You, RayJones, are the most self-contradicting person I have ever seen. You need to get off of the bandwagon and create some of your own opinions. You bounce from the left wing to the right more than a Pong ball.
i think for my own more than you do. and i dont "bounce from left to right". i say what i think and state my opinion. i dont like to classify it that way. maybe this just dosnt fit into your leftright-box.

Quote:
Originally posted by yaebginn
RayJones, from a certain point of view, You must be getting desperate. From a 'certain point of view' anything can be made logical.
desperate? i mean it exactly that way. "from a certain point of view (nearly) anything makes 'sense'" and from that certain point of view, your point of your "abortion= murder" becomes senseless.

Quote:
Originally posted by ET Warrior
News flash: Ray Jones isn't a religious person. He's using your religion against you, but he doesn't necessarily believe it.
we're a bunch of non-religious, me and my family, eh. but how dare you to call me a person?? oh well, you must be right, indeed.

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Secondly, where does it say in your bible that God creates a soul at conception? And at what point can you really call it a human being? What makes us human? And since any abortion is murder, if a woman falls on her stomach during a pregnancy and it kills the baby is she guilty of manslaughter?
protection, baby. protection. [edit] man. he really said it's manslaughter. XD

Quote:
And all your points you made make it obvious you aren't thinking about it like a father. You're thinking about it like a detached third party ready to judge her for her actions. So you're either too young or too closed-minded to understand.
me? meh. i'm old enough and have a sweet daughter and sweet mama, and err.. we live until we die.. ^__^;
err. and of course i am unexperienced.. who is not??

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And, as we all know, raising a child is ONLY about having enough money to do it, not having a father role-model to help out and stuff
oh yes, it's all about money.. money is important. at least so far as we need it to get all the stuff you need for life.. but it's also about the "family". and a familiy not about mother-father-child models. it's more about a reliable home for the child. it's about love, teaching it and lead it into life.. y'know..

Quote:
Originally posted by VanLingo
So the lady who falls on her baby by accident is guilty of manslaughter, just as the man who accidentally runs over a water-skier with his boat.
But the difference between falling and aborting a child is that not only does the aborting woman know full well that she is killing a child -- she also knew the consequences before she had promiscuous or unprotected sex.
err.. are we talking about "falling" like "accident" here? i thought i thought that.

Quote:
Oh and -- it's not MY religion, and there is no possible way to use it against me. You see, I actually have standards that are rooted back to the creation of man, not bandwagon beliefs. (Speaking of, I love Kerry's George-W-ripoff website.)
but it's the religion you follow, you believe in and that you like to promote. hey it may be not technically yours, .. and i think we both know what et was talking about. your religion.

jed: yesyes.. err.



Last edited by RayJones; 07-25-2004 at 06:07 PM.
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Old 07-25-2004, 10:54 PM   #7
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No, it was a dictatorship. Shadowman was correct. Just swallow your pride and admit you were wrong, but you never were good at admitting you're wrong were you?
Of course Iraq was a dictatorship...however on that webvsite you gave it had Iraqw listed as a Republic prior to the War in Iraq. Turkey is as much of a democracy as Bangladesh Yaebginn, which means it really isn't one.

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Boran, who keeps posting for you? That's pretty sad that your brother/dad doesn't have their own login.
Ummm...Lingo... I am the one making all posts on my account. I'm 14, however I know more about politics then 90% of all adults. My passions in life are politics, leadership and helping others.

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now do i hear a sharp tounge here??
seriously.. i dont think that would have worked.
Noo...really? Drats, I thought my tea party idea was brilliant! (Notice use of sarcasm)

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1.) some women doesnt have a choice..
Then that would be rape. If the woman says "no" and the man does it anyway that is rape. Like I said, 2% of all abortions are done because of rape.

Quote:
2.) being father is not about paying cash. and sure the father is responsible, but is he going to help the girl because of that? and where do 16 year old girls/boy get enough money if they go to school and hav achild?
Why in the heck are they doing it at that age anyway!? Jeez, at least wait until you're in your 20's for Gid's sake! And you know what, if you have a kid then get your butt out of school, you made the choice of taking the risk of having one.

And as for the father. I firmly believe that the father is equally responsable as the mother so, therefor, needs to chip in big time. If you can't go to school and suppor the child, well then tough. You should have kept your pants zipped up. If the father refuses to help then bring in government and make that father pay up.

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News flash: gay marriage is one of the most blasphemous things a person can do! It defies the original institution of God --
Ughh. Lingo, Yaebginn, stop using the Bible and religion in your debates. They are not real evidence and using religion will convince noone about anything.

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any method for protection is not 100% sure.
Sure, there is one protection that is 100% effective: Abstinence. And if you need to get down and dirty then I recommend the following (Not from personal experience...hehehe). The guy straps on the rubber while the girld takes the pill and uses spermicide. That is like an invulnerable wall!

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Old 07-26-2004, 02:36 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by RayJones
protection, baby. protection. [edit] man. he really said it's manslaughter. XD


me? meh. i'm old enough and have a sweet daughter and sweet mama, and err.. we live until we die.. ^__^;
err. and of course i am unexperienced.. who is not??
None of those points I made were addressed to you Ray

Quote:
So the lady who falls on her baby by accident is guilty of manslaughter, just as the man who accidentally runs over a water-skier with his boat.


Quote:
oh yes, it's all about money.. money is important. at least so far as we need it to get all the stuff you need for life.. but it's also about the "family". and a familiy not about mother-father-child models. it's more about a reliable home for the child. it's about love, teaching it and lead it into life.. y'know..
That was my point, even if the government makes the father give up money to help support the kid, the money ISN'T ENOUGH. Ask any single mother, raising kids requires HELP, and a fathers help is a big deal.



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Old 07-26-2004, 07:45 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by VanLingo
To anyone who discredits religion -- it's an easy thing to do when you're outmatched.
It's also an easy shroud to hide behind when you can't use fact to back up your argument.



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Old 07-26-2004, 07:56 PM   #10
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Specifically what argument, ET?
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Old 07-27-2004, 08:01 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by boranchistanger
Why in the heck are they doing it at that age anyway!? Jeez, at least wait until you're in your 20's for Gid's sake! And you know what, if you have a kid then get your butt out of school, you made the choice of taking the risk of having one.

..

Sure, there is one protection that is 100% effective: Abstinence. And if you need to get down and dirty then I recommend the following (Not from personal experience...hehehe). The guy straps on the rubber while the girld takes the pill and uses spermicide. That is like an invulnerable wall!
Quote:
Originally posted by yaebginn
And it doesnt matter how old you are, if you're not married, dont do it. Thats the best birth control ever. 100% guaranteed no pregnancies.
BUT.. if there is a married couple, they're both waaay above 20 (or whatever age you'd like to see when people start to have sex..) and they have already children and just dont want another one, OR cannot afford another one??
(and they DID it exactly like you've said boran.. i mean.. that's a great idea.. but still there is the possibility that this kind of 'protection' fails.. y'know.. )

and sure it's not like curing a broken arm. people should be aware of what the are doing and should know what "risks" it brings to have "unprotected" sex.

as for me.. me and my girl were having protected sex (like aaalllll the other times.. ), but somehow and i dont know, ok i know, but you know.. .. well.. she got pregnant. and at this time we both wanted to have kids, in the future but not now, because i thought i wasnt ready for this, and my girl hadnt finished education.. .. we decided to do it the "hard" way and get the baby. so she went to her boss to tell her what's up, and what can i say everything went fine and she said my girl can finish her education with the beginning of next 2005 after the "baby-year". that was august 2002. then in november 2003, 7 months after our daughter was born, she couldnt take the pill because she still gave breast to our baby so we used one of those condoms.. well.. it "broke" and she got pregnant again.
unfortunately, i dont earn enough money and she was up to go to work/education again in a month for two half days a week and would have messed up everything for her education so that she couldnt have finished it in the end. ok, we thought that wouldnt be really an issue.. but the money thing is. .. well.. what can i say.. we decided against another baby, we just had to.
it was really a tough decision, and in no way wasnt there a feeling of "phew. it is gone". the opposite is fact. and we are still sad because we had to do it this way. and from a 'certain point of view' society forced that decision upon us.

so perhabs some of you guys should really think about some anti-abortion stuff the say before they say it. it's not necessarily "for fun" or because people dont "watch it". i would have taken the 2. baby, but what should it bring, if i cant pay the rent anymore or cannot buy food? that's not a life where i want to throw two innocent childs in.


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Old 07-27-2004, 11:09 AM   #12
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but its still A life. If you're not ready for kids, IMO dont do it. and I dont care how hard you thought hard about havin an abortion, you still did it, and thats wrong. You could've put it up for adoption. I know I'd rather live in a world of poverty than not live at all. and couldnt afford it? you bought this comp didnt you? gonna buy battlefront (I suspect, since you're on this forum) I mean, worst case scenario, you coulda put up for adoption. I disagree with boran and think no matter how old u are, only if ur married. and if you do it when ur not ready fro kids, then thats ur responsiblility to care for it.
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Old 07-27-2004, 11:11 AM   #13
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Bush wants Turkey in the UN, so are you saying that you're smarter than Bush and can see through Turkey's appearance of being a democracy? Seriously, you are sounding stupid. I showed you evidence that it is a democracy. Is this like when you said Texas had a crappy history? No matter how much evidence I show you, you're still gonna say its incorrect?
What evidence have you given me?

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BUT.. if there is a married couple, they're both waaay above 20 (or whatever age you'd like to see when people start to have sex..) and they have already children and just dont want another one, OR cannot afford another one??
(and they DID it exactly like you've said boran.. i mean.. that's a great idea.. but still there is the possibility that this kind of 'protection' fails.. y'know.. )
Could you be a little clearer plz. I have no idea what you are saying lol.

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as for me.. me and my girl were having protected sex (like aaalllll the other times.. ), but somehow and i dont know, ok i know, but you know.. .. well.. she got pregnant. and at this time we both wanted to have kids, in the future but not now, because i thought i wasnt ready for this, and my girl hadnt finished education.. .. we decided to do it the "hard" way and get the baby. so she went to her boss to tell her what's up, and what can i say everything went fine and she said my girl can finish her education with the beginning of next 2005 after the "baby-year".
I honestly don't feel the least bit sorry for you Ray. If you don't want a baby then keep your zipper zipped up and have fun with your girl in other ways. I can guarantee you that this wouldn't have happened if you hadn't had sex with her.

Quote:
then in november 2003, 7 months after our daughter was born, she couldnt take the pill because she still gave breast to our baby so we used one of those condoms.. well.. it "broke" and she got pregnant again.
Are people ignorant about their mistakes or what? After you get burned for "doing it" the first time you "do it" again and get burned again. You did have some bad luck though, I mean condoms are usually very reliable (Not learned from personal experience).

Quote:
unfortunately, i dont earn enough money and she was up to go to work/education again in a month for two half days a week and would have messed up everything for her education so that she couldnt have finished it in the end. ok, we thought that wouldnt be really an issue.. but the money thing is. .. well.. what can i say.. we decided against another baby, we just had to.
So, you understood the risks of having sexual intercourse before you guys were ready to have kids, right? So, you do it anyways and get burned for it. Instead of giving this human a chance at life you killed him/her and yuou know what, that is wrong. If you absolutely couldn't take care of the baby you could have put him/her up for adoption. Anything is better than killing him/her.

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it was really a tough decision, and in no way wasnt there a feeling of "phew. it is gone". the opposite is fact. and we are still sad because we had to do it this way. and from a 'certain point of view' society forced that decision upon us.
Society forced nothing upon you Ray. You and your girl made the decision to have intercourse knowing the possible consequences. THere are no laws out there that say you have to have intercourse by x age, there is no "sex police" making sure everyone does it. You had the choice, you made the choice and you experienced the consequences. Society had nothing to do with this.

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so perhabs some of you guys should really think about some anti-abortion stuff the say before they say it. it's not necessarily "for fun" or because people dont "watch it". i would have taken the 2. baby, but what should it bring, if i cant pay the rent anymore or cannot buy food? that's not a life where i want to throw two innocent childs in.
Like I said, put the baby up for adoption, do something. At least give the baby a chance at living! Over 2 million lives are sucked up every year through the sick and inhumane process known as abortion. What if one of those 2 million plus people had grown up to find the cure for cancer? How about if one of those 2 million plus humans became an important leader? Think about it.

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Old 07-27-2004, 11:38 AM   #14
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I blieve your point was that abortion wasnt easy and it isnt just like, 'oh well, lets get an aboriotn' its actually very hard on the mind and all. but it was still a wrong decsion. and boran, I showd u the site that said Turkey was a democracy. you have yet to show me anything that says it isnt.
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Old 07-27-2004, 12:33 PM   #15
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I think his POINT was, that if they had HAD the second kid, it would have had the ability to ruin FOUR lives. Living in poverty is one thing, living homeless with no food is a completely different thing.

And again you guys just talk about adoption, but you apparently don't understand the kind of physical and emotional attachments most women develop to a baby when they carry it to term. I mean, how would YOU feel, knowing that out in the world there is a kid that is YOURS, but YOU can't have him/her because you just couldn't afford it? It would be like selling your soul I would think. And I doubt abortion is much easier, but at least you didn't have nine months to become attached.

And now you're gonna be all "Blah blah blah, keep your pants up don't have sex blah blah"

So now you're saying that even when you actually GET married, you still shouldn't have sex because you don't want kids for another 4 years? Or after a certain age you should just STOP having sex because you're too old to raise children/already have more than you can afford? Good luck finding a girl who, (especially when you're married) is okay with not having sex. You'll be divorced in a year.

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What if one of those 2 million plus people had grown up to find the cure for cancer? How about if one of those 2 million plus humans became an important leader? Think about it.
I am so tired of hearing that lame argument. Honestly. What if one of those million or so sperm that die every time a guy jerks off were going to be the next einstein or cure cancer??!?!? OMGOMGOMG Apparently jerking off shouldn't be legal, because we're killing off our genius sperm! And protected sex should also be illegal, as that prevents the genius sperm from fertilizing the egg, and creating our world leaders. AND, every time a woman ovulates, she's losing an egg that could have become the person to negotiate world peace, so lets make ovulation illegal too

And perhaps you don't realize, but it's STILL going to happen if you make it illegal, women who want abortions will either
A) Go to another country if they have the money to do so.
B) Go to a back alley abortion where there is a moderate chance of them DYING.

And there's just as likely a chance that some of those 2 million aborted babies would have grown up to be serial rapists/ murders as opposed to anyone of great worth to society.



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Old 07-27-2004, 01:44 PM   #16
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it doesnt matter. I'd rather let a kid have a better life somewhere else, than have them die. Abortion is as selfish as suicide.
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Old 07-27-2004, 03:13 PM   #17
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ET makes a hundred great points within 10 sentences as he so frequently did before. if my english ever fails, i'll ask him.

yeabginn, we talk as soon as you have kids. then we will have a nice tea time with your girl and talk about giving your (her) child away. just for fun. i know you will now tell me that is no problem. i could ask you then how the hell you dare to speak for your (future) girl about that kind of topic without having even the slightest idea what having/becoming a baby means. all you have to offer here is obviously stuff that someone somehow planted deep into your brain, and i just can repeat that i hope that you will recognize this some day. i hope that you will see someday that *life* (and with life i mean real life, the life that happens since life err.. happens) just doesnt works that way. and i will do the best i can to *protect* my children against the insane, surreal and 'evil' teaching you attempt to spread. i am NOT anti religion, but i am anti prechewedbrainmeals like "suicide is selfish and so is abortion". statements like those have absolutely no connection to the certain situations they are talking about.


as far as i can see there are two kinds of people here. one group listens to the others, accept the heard and put on their on thoughts concerning the topic. they aim for a plain exchange of knowledge, experience and simple view on things. the other group ignore what others say, except they can jump on it to start an argument if it's right or wrong. there is no chance that they just can talk about things that their "opinions" might differ from. they MUST FORCE THIS onto others, regardless if they have completely different views. where is the point in saying i will go to hell (as one example) if i dont even believe in hell?
there is just NO WAY to have a simple EXCHANGE with those kind of folksmen.

see, i shared my life with you people and all you have to do is to say how wrong and whateverything else it is. you didnt even go into the situation, you just keep repeating what's been planted into your brain.

tse. and i cannot think for myself. yeah.

*yesyes, is calm, really. XP*


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Old 07-27-2004, 04:19 PM   #18
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for starters. I dont plan on having kids. I dont trust myself. But hypothetically, if I did, it'd be because I wanted a kid. and if I didnt, and had one accidentally, then I'd either keep it and care for it by maybe borrowing money from my parents or something, or worse case scenario, put it up for a doption. I would never kill it. and yes, suicide is selfish. It's the easy way out. I mean, its just mean to others. even if no one does liek you, then someone has to clean up your corpse, amking it more work for them. And I have not been brainwashed, I just do whats right. If doing the right, moral thing is brainwashing, then so be it. Also, I said, 'Abortion is as selfish as suicide' meaning that they are on par with one another. they are both very selfish.
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Old 07-28-2004, 02:29 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by yaebginn
I said, 'Abortion is as selfish as suicide' meaning that they are on par with one another. they are both very selfish.
You know what's selfish? Trying to force your beliefs onto other people. You are assuming that every belief YOU have is superior the any belief that is different than yours.

And your explanation for WHY suicide is selfish is...well....it has no substance. You say it's selfish because then someone has to clean up your corpse. This is akin to you telling me I'm being selfish for putting my trash in the trash bin, so the garbage men have to come clean it up. It is their JOB to do that, it's what they're paid to do. There are people whose job involves cleaning up other peoples dead bodies. You're actually HELPING them by committing suicide, because you give them something to do and add meaning to their lives. If people didn't die those men would have no job, no money, and if they knocked up their wife/girlfriend they'd have to get an abortion because they couldn't afford the kid. And I know how much you hate abortion.

It's also selfish of YOU telling people that they can't commit suicide. If they are living a miserable, horrible life, with absolutely no light at the end of the tunnel, who are you to say that they have to live out the remainder of their lives in misery? Just so YOU aren't saddened for a few months by their untimely death?



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Old 07-31-2004, 11:48 AM   #20
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I split out the abortion nonsense

I get so tired of listening to radicals pop the Abortion Issue into political debates as a way to further divide people.

It seems to be a habit in political debates for those arguing a point to inject polarizing issues as a way of creating a divide among those like the voting public, who may not be as educated in the myriad of other issues that affect them. "I know killing a child is wrong, therefore I won't vote for him." This is an example of faulty critical thinking.

Rather than deal with the issue at hand, in this case it was "The War in Iraq," deflective strategies like non sequitirs, post hoc, ergo propter hoc arguments, and strawman arguments enter the discussion.

That our political system is already dichotomized into "Right" versus "Left" is bad enough. To allow ourselves to further choose an entire political ideology based on the personal bias of one issue is not only setting ourselves up for failure, but it shows a lack of true patriotism.

Our nation succeeds best when there is a balance of ideology in government rather than a bias. Democrats are always quick to point out the Clinton admin's successes, but we have to recognize that during much or all of his administration there was a strong Republican base in Congress. Reagan had a strong Democratic base in his Congress. Both are arguably among the best Presidents of the 20th century (that statement was not not an invitation to start a Clinton pros/cons debate).

It is perfectly acceptable to vote for a candidate and have reservations about one or more of their issues.

Having said all that, I moved the abortion posts out of "The War in Iraq" thread to maintain the topical continuity.


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Old 07-31-2004, 01:05 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by yaebginn
it doesnt matter. I'd rather let a kid have a better life somewhere else, than have them die.
That is you speaking as a guy with no experience. You don't seem to be able to fathom the depth of the attachment that a woman develops with a child that they have carried for nine months and given birth to.



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Old 08-01-2004, 05:30 PM   #22
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All the arguments of the "pro-lifers" are based on the allegation that a 10-week old fetus is ethically equal to a fully grown human being. This assertion is unsupported, seeing as a 10-week old fetus will have the awareness of an average retarded fish.

Pro-lifers often tells us "Killing innocent babies is bad!". I will response with this: Yes, it's bad killing innocent babies, but how is this relevant to the issue of abortion? People should be able to understand that a young fetus is nothing more than a primitive form of life that given the right conditions has the potential of becoming a fully grown human. Abortion never kills babies, it prevents them from ever existing. Just like condoms.


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Old 08-04-2004, 02:15 PM   #23
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I find it funny and sad that the most fervent of "pro-lifers" are almost always male. Now why is that?

In case you didn't know, pregnancy is not something you undertake lightly. Women risk their lives giving birth, but this fact is glossed over time and time again each time this debate comes up. That's right - millions of women die from bearing a child, and yet lots of "pro-life" men are more than willing to make sure the woman has no say in the matter. It's easy for guys to say that killing any kind of human being is wrong, they don't have to put their life on the line at the same time. And we're also the first in line to compromise this principle each time we cheer on our soldiers who kill innocent people all the time.

Furthermore, some contraceptives actually kill the fetus after it's conceived yet before it sets in the womb of the mother (the spiral, working by constantly releasing ions). Where is the outrage over that?

Is abortion selfish? Is wanting to have a child no matter what it conditions it may grow up under, no matter what physical and mental handicaps it may suffer from selfish? Is wanting to spare a fellow human from being an unwanted child selfish? Is wanting to impose your will on women selfish?

The thought that the whole human race should just practice abstinence until they're ready to have a child is immature, unrealistic, ridiculous and inhumane. It is not possible.


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Old 08-06-2004, 06:27 PM   #24
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The thought that the whole human race should just practice abstinence until they're ready to have a child is immature, unrealistic, ridiculous and inhumane. It is not possible.
That would be one way of putting it

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Old 08-06-2004, 06:43 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Breton
All the arguments of the "pro-lifers" are based on the allegation that a 10-week old fetus is ethically equal to a fully grown human being. This assertion is unsupported, seeing as a 10-week old fetus will have the awareness of an average retarded fish.

Pro-lifers often tells us "Killing innocent babies is bad!". I will response with this: Yes, it's bad killing innocent babies, but how is this relevant to the issue of abortion? People should be able to understand that a young fetus is nothing more than a primitive form of life that given the right conditions has the potential of becoming a fully grown human. Abortion never kills babies, it prevents them from ever existing. Just like condoms.
I agree with this statement 100%.

I'm a prochoice type of guy myself.

(I'll type up a larger response about my beliefs later, since Im in a rush right now )





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Old 08-12-2004, 12:16 PM   #26
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abortion = great idea, cos my religion says so.
Now argue with that...



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Old 08-12-2004, 07:31 PM   #27
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You see, I actually have standards that are rooted back to the creation of man
Sheesh A couple of thousand years are hardly 'back to the creation of man'.

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To anyone who discredits religion -- it's an easy thing to do when you're outmatched.
No. You see, when I start dissing religion, I am very rarely outmatched. Mainly because religion doesn't need dissing. It does an excellent job of it itself.

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And I have not been brainwashed, I just do whats right. If doing the right, moral thing is brainwashing, then so be it.
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Old 08-12-2004, 11:37 PM   #28
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You don't even have to get bogged down into the whole "ethical" nonsense to end this debate.


The state and the church should be separate. All anti-abortion arguments are religious, so there is no reason why the state should have anything to do with it.


Really, there is no logical reason to be against abortion.

If a mother is seriously considering an abortion, then the child is clearly unwanted. Note the difference between unwanted and unplanned. Many pregnancies are unplanned, but come as a pleasant surprise.
If a pregnancy is genuinely unwanted, then how can that child ever be loved?
That child will simply be an unwanted burden on the mother, a chain pulling her down. At best, she will neglect the child, at worst, she will hate it.
The child will grow up utterly miserable.

It would be better both for the mother and child were the pregnancy aborted to start with and the woman had the child when she was ready, emotionally and/or financially, and the child could grow up in a stable, loving, caring environment.


I think this thread is part of several others that display how religion is becoming increasingly detrimental to society.
Forcing a mother to keep a child she does not want is not going to help anyone or anything.
It will only please your "God".

Society must be governed by logic, not religion.


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Old 08-13-2004, 09:29 AM   #29
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I've said it before in another thread, I'll say it here to.

Until you scan and post a copy of your membership card(s) for Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, there's not a lot I'll be willing to hear about the "human rights" of unborn fetuses.

In Rwanda, Congo and, now, Sudan, ethnic cleansing, genocide, and wholesale, brutal murder of men, women and children is so commonplace that there are those that go to bed not knowing if they will live through the following day.

In 1994, several thousand people (mostly women and children) were killed in under an hour. In the Congo, over 800 were hacked to death in under 3 hours.

That's a very high rate of death per killer. Many were pregnant women whose stomachs were flayed open with machetes.

I'd like to know how many anti-abortion types joined Amnesty International or HRW out of protest.

If any are in this thread, post images of your cards (with the personal info blacked out if you wish), and I'll debate with you the ethics of abortion. Until then, no one else is qualified so I'll simply monitor the discussions for rules violations.

That is all.


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Old 08-17-2004, 11:19 AM   #30
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hmmm... it would be nice if they went and blew up those guys instead of doctors and nurses...



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Old 08-18-2004, 12:50 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mort-Hog

Society must be governed by logic, not religion.
its not logic to kill a human in the womb.


"It was Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve. Pray for an end to abortion and Gay marriage."

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Old 08-18-2004, 02:14 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by reelguy227
its not logic to kill a human in the womb.
And yet you're willing to support war why? Why is it okay to kill a fully grown human being as opposed to killing a conglomeration of cells that is not yet human?



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Old 08-18-2004, 08:03 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by reelguy227
its not logic to kill a human in the womb.

Yes it is.


Read the rest of my post. You know, the part where I explained how anti-abortionism is illogical.


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Old 08-18-2004, 08:16 AM   #34
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and the part where we showed the fetus isn't technically a human... yet.


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Old 08-18-2004, 08:46 AM   #35
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Whether it's a 'human' or not isn't important.

It still makes more sense to abort it. It's in the interests of everyone involved.


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Old 08-18-2004, 11:14 AM   #36
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Originally posted by toms
hmmm... it would be nice if they went and blew up those guys instead of doctors and nurses...
"He's a son of a bitch, but he's our son of a bitch!

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Old 08-18-2004, 02:45 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by ET Warrior
And yet you're willing to support war why? Why is it okay to kill a fully grown human being as opposed to killing a conglomeration of cells that is not yet human?

Where did I ever say that I support war ET?


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Old 08-18-2004, 02:48 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mort-Hog
Whether it's a 'human' or not isn't important.

It still makes more sense to abort it. It's in the interests of everyone involved.
So then we might as well legalize murder .

So if a gang out on the streets is planning to murder someone then its ok ,because its "in the interests of everyone involved."


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Old 08-18-2004, 03:12 PM   #39
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I don't think it'll be in the interest of the familiy of the victim.


"Fact is, we do not know what *god* really is like. But we do know the universe is made in a way that there is an infinite amount of numbers between 0 and 1. Compare it to all the 'perhabses' between yes and no. And just like there is no comparison of yes or no, 0 and 1 are the boundaries of this universe. A universe we do not 'live in' but are rather only a small part of.
Now one could conclude that everything bigger than 1 is *infinite*, 1 is the universe as a whole, made up by everything smaller than 1, including us. And *god* is 0."

--a friend, philosophizing about the reasons for a lack of milk in his fridge.
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Old 08-18-2004, 03:15 PM   #40
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what are you saying jack? im not following.


"It was Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve. Pray for an end to abortion and Gay marriage."

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