lfnetwork.com mark read register faq members calendar

Thread: Abortion debate (older thread)
Thread Tools Display Modes
Post a new thread. Sorry, this thread is closed. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Old 08-18-2004, 03:18 PM   #41
ET Warrior
PhD in horribleness
 
ET Warrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Evil League of Evil
Posts: 9,405
LFN Staff Member Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally posted by reelguy227
Where did I ever say that I support war ET?
Perhaps that is my mistake, I may have confused your arguments with yaebginns at some point. I appologize if you are in fact anti-war.

He's saying that while abortion IS in the best interests of even the unborn child, because it will be born into a family that resolutely DOES NOT WANT HIM, a murder on the street is not in the best interests of the victim OR his family.



ET Warrior is offline   you may:
Old 08-18-2004, 03:29 PM   #42
jack "odc" one.
Rookie
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: any mission possible
Posts: 46
This is correct, ET Warrior.


"Fact is, we do not know what *god* really is like. But we do know the universe is made in a way that there is an infinite amount of numbers between 0 and 1. Compare it to all the 'perhabses' between yes and no. And just like there is no comparison of yes or no, 0 and 1 are the boundaries of this universe. A universe we do not 'live in' but are rather only a small part of.
Now one could conclude that everything bigger than 1 is *infinite*, 1 is the universe as a whole, made up by everything smaller than 1, including us. And *god* is 0."

--a friend, philosophizing about the reasons for a lack of milk in his fridge.
jack "odc" one. is offline   you may:
Old 08-18-2004, 03:38 PM   #43
reelguy227
Forumite
 
reelguy227's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: America
Posts: 510
ill be praying for you guys ,from now on im not going to debate any more ,peace out.


"It was Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve. Pray for an end to abortion and Gay marriage."

"Prayer is weakness leaning on Omnipotence"
reelguy227 is offline   you may:
Old 08-18-2004, 03:41 PM   #44
ShadowTemplar
Heathen
 
ShadowTemplar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Denmark
Posts: 1,068
Quote:
Originally posted by reelguy227
ill be praying for you guys
Is that good or bad? I'd figure that getting the attention of a deity with an attitude drawn your way isn't exactly good for your health...

ShadowTemplar is offline   you may:
Old 08-18-2004, 04:04 PM   #45
jack "odc" one.
Rookie
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: any mission possible
Posts: 46
Hm. Maybe he can't really argue this. And he can't really say "OK" without contradicting his 'religious' way of thinking.


"Fact is, we do not know what *god* really is like. But we do know the universe is made in a way that there is an infinite amount of numbers between 0 and 1. Compare it to all the 'perhabses' between yes and no. And just like there is no comparison of yes or no, 0 and 1 are the boundaries of this universe. A universe we do not 'live in' but are rather only a small part of.
Now one could conclude that everything bigger than 1 is *infinite*, 1 is the universe as a whole, made up by everything smaller than 1, including us. And *god* is 0."

--a friend, philosophizing about the reasons for a lack of milk in his fridge.
jack "odc" one. is offline   you may:
Old 08-18-2004, 04:45 PM   #46
ShadowTemplar
Heathen
 
ShadowTemplar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Denmark
Posts: 1,068
Now you're being nasty... But you're probably being right as well.

ShadowTemplar is offline   you may:
Old 08-18-2004, 05:23 PM   #47
jack "odc" one.
Rookie
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: any mission possible
Posts: 46
Well, i couldn't resist, after so much "religious" stuff he threw, he now just withdraws, after even this last argument of him was pointed out to be pointless. The only conclusion for that is, he see's a contradiction but isn't willing or afraid to accept it, since this would undermine his views.
But it mustn't. Assumed that the bible was/is misinterpreted at some points, it mustn't be necessarily contradicting to christianity. After all the idea of christianity (or religion in general) is not wrong. It's just old, and the religious folk (those like him) constantly refuses to adapt it's teachings properly into the now. But who am i telling that.


"Fact is, we do not know what *god* really is like. But we do know the universe is made in a way that there is an infinite amount of numbers between 0 and 1. Compare it to all the 'perhabses' between yes and no. And just like there is no comparison of yes or no, 0 and 1 are the boundaries of this universe. A universe we do not 'live in' but are rather only a small part of.
Now one could conclude that everything bigger than 1 is *infinite*, 1 is the universe as a whole, made up by everything smaller than 1, including us. And *god* is 0."

--a friend, philosophizing about the reasons for a lack of milk in his fridge.
jack "odc" one. is offline   you may:
Old 08-19-2004, 10:32 AM   #48
Druid Bremen
 
Druid Bremen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Trolling in the Senate Chambers
Posts: 610
According to SOME people, they say that it is wrong to kill an unborn baby. But then again, since it is not fully developed, it is simply a bunch of cells. That said, it means they feel that chickens, ducks, and other animals, which are "higher" than the "unborn baby", should not be killed either. The animals are more living than the lot of cells which are trying to become a full human. Yet some of them feel nothing wrong in killing them. Why? Its because of all these religions, saying that man is more sacred than animals or something. What type of reasoning is this? Though chickens may not be as good as us, they're still living. Religions are just made so that people can explain the unexplained, like the made-up souls, all that.

Just so you know, I'm a non-believer.


That said, I'm off to bed.



My signature made by IG-64! Thanks a lot man!

The *only* thing that ALL the religions get right is that ALL the other religions are wrong, excluding this fact.
Druid Bremen is offline   you may:
Old 09-10-2004, 06:09 PM   #49
kipperthefrog
Veteran
 
kipperthefrog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Blue Hawaii
Posts: 846
Heres what MY dad says about abortion:

Quote:
Origanaly SPOKEN by my dad

most people say the "baby is just a little blob of tissue...

... but in the big shceme of things, YOU'RE not that signifigant either! so why dont you terminate yourself?"
he's right! In the big picture, EVERYONE is just a little blob of tissue, growing on a tiny planet! we are no "bigger" or more "important" than the unborn.


kipperthefrog is offline   you may:
Old 09-10-2004, 10:45 PM   #50
Kurgan
Headhunter
 
Kurgan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1997
Location: The Dawn of Time
Posts: 18,298
LFN Staff Member 10 year veteran! 
Arrow

It may not be possible to have such a debate without some ad hominem attacks flying around, but I'll bite...

I'm against abortion (in the vast majority of cases, perhaps only the life of the mother, but then if it's a 50/50 chance it's a case-by-case thing).

-I'm against war in general (there MIGHT be a case for a "Just War" but I have yet to see an example of one).

-I'm against the Death Penalty.

-I'm against Assisted Suicide/Euthanasia

-I'm in favor of reasonable environmental protection (ie: not like PETA)

My beliefs are based on religion and also on philosophy.

As a reasonable (ie: not suicidally depressed due to chemical imbalance) human being I would not want someone to attack and kill me, kill me in the womb or execute me; likewise I would not wish those on someone else. The golden rule basically.

Is humanism a religion? It's got some of the hallmarks of religion, but anyway, it's based on beliefs we have about ourselves, so, that's another thought.

The idea that condom usage and ovulation are the same as abortion doesn't hold, because in those cases the eggs and sperm are already alive, but demonstratably incapable of "developing into a human being on their own." Likewise their DNA is identical to the contributor. Sperm don't live in wild, and I have yet to see colonies of human eggs scampering around in the forest. Anyway, once the egg and sperm are joined in the process of conception, they are not simply one or another parent's DNA but something new (even if, for the moment they are living in the mother's body and dependant on her body for nurishment).

What is this about "Fully grown" humans? Are we talking 18 years old? We're growing and developing our entire lives, really. So saying that a person is human only after birth or only after they can vote is really a an arbitrary distinction of society.

If you are seriously pro-choice, then you should note that the pro-choice argument is that a human becomes a "person" (artificially constructed "rank" if you will) at a certain time. This time is determined by law, as the time in which you can't be terminated without due process of law. If Partial Birth Abortion is legal, then that means you can be terminated up until you are actually all the way out of the womb, legally. If it's not, then you can be terminated sometime until you start coming out.


Speaking of PETA earlier (only as a side note), why don't we give morphine to the fetus who is being aborted? We care about 'animal rights' but we don't care about a young vulnerable human? At what point does a human become "human"... at birth? When they draw their first breath? When they get their driver's liscense? And if we "can't say" or "don't know" then what business do we have saying when it's okay to kill him/her/it?

Then there's the adoption issue. Granted, a woman has a big chance of becoming "attached" to her baby by carrying him/her in her womb for 9 months, but still, is it really more loving to have him/her killed than to give her up to some strangers?

I've heard that it's easier to have an abortion than to adopt a baby, because the qualifications (and waiting lists) are so long/big. But if you're adopted, your chances are good of having a better chance, because at least the family is going to be ready (willing) and able (financially) to raise you.

I've talked to people who were the products of rape (seemed pretty human to me) who didn't hate themselves for the crime of one of their parents. They weren't a drain on society, anymore than any other victim of violence. My heart goes out to those who have lived through abortions, but I wonder if they really understood the alternatives.

Saying a person is better off dead than poor is really saying a lot (what a depressing thought).


Download JK2 maps for JA Server|BOOT CAMP!|Strategic Academy|
(JA Server: 108.178.55.189:29070)


"The Concussion Rifle is the weapon of a Jedi Knight Player, an elegant weapon, from a more civilized community." - Kyle Katarn
Kurgan is offline   you may:
Old 09-10-2004, 11:03 PM   #51
ET Warrior
PhD in horribleness
 
ET Warrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Evil League of Evil
Posts: 9,405
LFN Staff Member Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
-I'm against Assisted Suicide/Euthanasia

Saying a person is better off dead than poor is really saying a lot (what a depressing thought).
I'd go through more of your post, but it's late and I'm tired and sick, so this is all I've got in me.

I'm most against your stance on Euthenasia, because I honestly don't understand the logic. Why is it humane to force somebody to endure pain and suffering, when the end result is the same? There are diseases that we have no cure for, and are nowhere NEAR close to finding a cure. People with these diseases live the ends of their lives suffering through agony just because it is inhumane to let them decide whether they want to live or die? Isn't it THEIR choice? My life is my own, and I should have the right to choose what to do with it. I would hope that were I a terminally ill patient, and it was a disease that brought me nothing but pain, that I would get the choice of ending that suffering, since I was destined to die young anyways.


As for your second point, it's not that they're better off dead than poor, that was never my intent. My meaning is that they're better off never existing, and never KNOWING that they never existed than living the life of an unwanted child. Now I can't quote any statistics as I dont know any, but I am fairly certain that they are highly more likely to end up neglected or abused, which is no way for a person to live.

Now granted, eventually they will grow up, and some of them become well adjusted adults. But there are also the ones who go home and eat 20 sleeping pills, or the ones who grow up and abuse their own children.

It seems to me that terminating a conglomeration of cells that doesn't even have a central nervous system can hardly be called murder.



ET Warrior is offline   you may:
Old 09-11-2004, 09:00 AM   #52
C'jais
Spicy Viking Boy
 
C'jais's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Soviet Scandinavistan
Posts: 4,345
Quote:
Originally posted by kipperthefrog
he's right! In the big picture, EVERYONE is just a little blob of tissue, growing on a tiny planet! we are no "bigger" or more "important" than the unborn.
I assume that goes for animals and other lifeforms as well, right?

Should we treat the million of bacteria we kill each day as just as important as "human life"?

We kill stuff for food, for convenience. It's only human to classify lifeforms as we do with unborn fetii.


Better to be hated for who you are, than loved for who you're not.

Member of The Scandinavian Clique

My LiveJournal
C'jais is offline   you may:
Old 09-11-2004, 09:21 AM   #53
ShadowTemplar
Heathen
 
ShadowTemplar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Denmark
Posts: 1,068
Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
Is humanism a religion? It's got some of the hallmarks of religion, but anyway, it's based on beliefs we have about ourselves, so, that's another thought.
An interesting question, and one that is not easily anwered. The fundamental difference between a religion and a non-religious ideology (for lack of a better term), is that religion is dogmatic and claims to be justified a priori, whereas the non-religious idea accepts detractors. Thus Humanism is not a religion per se, but a lot of people are doing their level best to turn it into one. They have not quite succeded just yet, but there is a distinct possibility that they will.

Quote:
eggs and sperm are already alive, but demonstratably incapable of "developing into a human being on their own." Likewise their DNA is identical to the contributor.
Now, that's not quite correct. The genetic make-up of sperm and eggs is actually quite distinct from that of the contributor (it has only one pair of chromosomes, for instance).

Quote:
Sperm don't live in wild, and I have yet to see colonies of human eggs scampering around in the forest.
But the same thing goes for 9 weeks old fetuses.

Quote:
What is this about "Fully grown" humans? Are we talking 18 years old? We're growing and developing our entire lives, really. So saying that a person is human only after birth or only after they can vote is really a an arbitrary distinction of society.
But so is the 'conception' line of argument. Artificial. And likewise, the conventions of human rights are artificial. And the Bible is artificial. Everything we use to justify certain moral standards is artificial.

Quote:
Speaking of PETA earlier (only as a side note), why don't we give morphine to the fetus who is being aborted? We care about 'animal rights' but we don't care about a young vulnerable human?
Morphine doesn't really work on something that hasn't got a brain. But as a matter of fact, the fetus is quite dead when the actual extraction takes place.

Quote:
Then there's the adoption issue. Granted, a woman has a big chance of becoming "attached" to her baby by carrying him/her in her womb for 9 months, but still, is it really more loving to have him/her killed than to give her up to some strangers?
But by adoption you can save a third-world child that's actually been born already. So, to save a four-week fetus you sacrifice a four-year child?

ShadowTemplar is offline   you may:
Old 09-11-2004, 12:04 PM   #54
Kurgan
Headhunter
 
Kurgan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1997
Location: The Dawn of Time
Posts: 18,298
LFN Staff Member 10 year veteran! 
Quote:
Originally posted by ShadowTemplar
Now, that's not quite correct. The genetic make-up of sperm and eggs is actually quite distinct from that of the contributor (it has only one pair of chromosomes, for instance).
Okay, I'm not a doctor, but I mean that the fetus is not just a hunk of the mother's body, as some claim in these debates. On the one hand you have dad's sperm and mom's egg, then you have "new thing" which is a combination of both.

Quote:
But the same thing goes for 9 weeks old fetuses.

But so is the 'conception' line of argument. Artificial. And likewise, the conventions of human rights are artificial. And the Bible is artificial. Everything we use to justify certain moral standards is artificial.
Yeah, it's all artificial. On the one hand you have pro-life people claiming that it's God's will, that it's nature, that it's moral. Then you have pro-choice people claiming that it's nature, that it's women's rights, that it's religious freedom, etc.

So how do we decide which is the "right" answer to put into law? All issues related to human rights are artificial. But if we were to reduce it to some "universal" standard, and you don't want God in the picture, how about the Golden Rule? I wouldn't want to be aborted or killed, so I wouldn't want others to be aborted or killed (even if I can't ask them).
[/quote]



Quote:
Morphine doesn't really work on something that hasn't got a brain. But as a matter of fact, the fetus is quite dead when the actual extraction takes place.
One would only need to use painkillers on something with a nervous system. When we "put animals to sleep" we don't rip them open with a knife, although that would do the job of killing them. The idea being that making a living being suffer while it's being killed is cruel and inhumane. So the same should apply to an unborn human that can feel pain (the same or even moreso than a St. Bernard or a kitty).

Abortion isn't only legal in the very earliest stages of pregnancy, if it were, then this wouldn't be an issue. I just think it's interesting that we don't do that, even admitting that it's human.

Granted, there are people out there who claim animals don't feel pain either, but I'm thinking that the scientists and doctors who have the hands on experience would know better.


Quote:
But by adoption you can save a third-world child that's actually been born already. So, to save a four-week fetus you sacrifice a four-year child?
As I said before the lines for adoption are very long, and the process for adoption is very strict. Should we only adopt "third world children"? What about first world children? What if somebody wants to adopt one of them?

Anyway, when a person has a child, they're contributing another person into the "pool" of children out there.

The fact that there are already some who are up for adoption isn't that person's problem. The fact is by putting them up for adoption they're giving them a chance, one that they cannot provide for the child otherwise. This is better than choosing to take away that child's life. If it's so wrong to have children, then we can back up a step and say, "well they should have used protection" or "they shouldn't have been having sex if they knew they couldn't handle it." So sex education and contraception should be made more widely available.

BUT, that said, I'm not arguing that abortion should be an "escape valve" for unplanned pregnancy, as the pro-choice line of argument would have it.

As to Euthanasia, this is not "forcing a person to stay alive who has pain."

First off, we have medicines and treatments that can handle all sorts of pain, that includes depression (which fuels suicidal feelings). A person may feel like dying, but that doesn't mean we should intentionally kill them to "stop the pain." We can stop the pain other ways that don't involve killing. As to refusing treatment, that's something entirely.

Is there a moral difference between these two scenarios?

Let's say you're in a war and your buddy has been shot. He's crawling towards you with his guts hanging out. He's clearly near death and there's no medical attention within reach. He says "kill me..." weakly.

Do you take out your gun and shoot him in the head to "put him out of his misery" or is it equally moral to just run away, or hold his hand and try to comfort him until he dies? Or are you obligated to kill him because he asked you?

Granted, in war, people toss the rules of morality out the window (which I don't agree with), but let's just say it's something like that.

Now take the above scenario and instead of two soldiers in a warzone, say it's two police officers in a big city and you were in a big gangland style battle. Would it still be moral to waste your friend?

Now if a person is trying to take their own life, should we stop them? I say, yes. Suicidal feelings are usually (if not always) caused by mental illnesses, primarily depression. We have drugs that can treat depression and depression itself is not a permanent condition. Thus if we stop a person from committing suicide, we can treat them. They may wish to die now, but they may not wish to die later. Yes, we violated that person's freedom by stopping them, but on the other hand, we may have helped society by keeping that person alive, likewise they were not in their "right mind" and we helped them.

It's like when an animal has stitches in its head, we put one of those cones around his neck so he can't scratch out the stitches and give himself an infection. Sure, we're taking away some of his freedom but we're preventing a greater harm that he would do himself.

Likewise in a field hospital it may be necessary to amputate a person's limb, without doing so they may die. I'm sure the person doesn't want to lose the limb, but they may not realize the implications of that choice.

A depressed person may not realize the implications of their disease, thinking that the world really is better off without them, that they really are useless, that the pain really will never end and they are better off dead, etc. so are they really capable of making that choice?

So, that huge element of doubt prevents me from saying that it's okay. If a person kills themselves in some back alley, we can't stop them. But if somebody says "hey, I'm going to do it" the right thing to do is to stop them. And if they say "you do it to me" the right thing to do is to refuse.


And finally, as to saying a fetus is just like anything else, we aren't that stupid. We know that a random bacteria isn't going to form into a human being on its own. Likewise a sperm that's in a test tube won't spontaneously become a human being either. And a bunny rabbit, no matter how cute and how many tricks it learns won't become a human being.

The fact that we designate certain human beings as having fewer rights or no rights, etc. is artificial and unfortunate. Based on the Golden Rule, I'd say we should give unborn human beings at least the most basic rights that other humans enjoy. For now they don't have any, really, (though a couple of cases of manslaughter or double-homocide seem to have been discussed for those who murder pregnant women or cause them to have a misscarriage). As of now an unborn human is treated basically as property (of the mother) or as a part of her own body (so it's like if you had an amputation or a surgery). The reasons against abortion are philosophical, but then the reasons for abortion are also philosophical.

The question of whether or not to have an abortion is just solved. If you believe that it's okay, then there's nothing stopping you, if you believe it's not okay, then you don't have one (of course if an unborn human has rights, then you just violated them if you had an abortion).

The bigger question is if the rest of society should also be allowed to make that choice (ie: resulting in at least some abortions).

This could be compared to other instances of society injustice towards certain members, such as slavery, genocide, women's rights, etc. There have been other disenfranchised classes in society before. The decision to "give" them rights was philosophical, emotional, etc. legal one. Was it right? Well, who knows, right?

The only difference here is that the unborn humans can't say "yes, save me I don't want to be killed." Perhaps we could compare this to the rights of very young children, or mentally handicapped people, or deaf mutes. Ie: people who have great difficulty communicating philosophical ideas to "normal" adults (the ones who make the decisions for those people).

But that's a good argument for pro-life people continuing to oppose abortion, rather than some notion that they are "forcing their religion on everyone else."

Besides, if you think something is objectively moral and right, wouldn't you be fighting for it too?


Download JK2 maps for JA Server|BOOT CAMP!|Strategic Academy|
(JA Server: 108.178.55.189:29070)


"The Concussion Rifle is the weapon of a Jedi Knight Player, an elegant weapon, from a more civilized community." - Kyle Katarn
Kurgan is offline   you may:
Old 09-19-2004, 10:53 AM   #55
ShadowTemplar
Heathen
 
ShadowTemplar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Denmark
Posts: 1,068
Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
Okay, I'm not a doctor, but I mean that the fetus is not just a hunk of the mother's body, as some claim in these debates. On the one hand you have dad's sperm and mom's egg, then you have "new thing" which is a combination of both.
That is intuitively obvious. Difference, however, is hardly the same as individuality. As someone (I believe that it was Tyrion) said earlier: A fetus has all the awareness of your average retarded fish. And the argument that the fetus 'could potentially develop into a full human' doesn't hold either. It is still wholly dependent on the mother. After birth this is not the case. After birth there has to be some caring adult, certainly, but not nessecarily the mother.

Quote:
But if we were to reduce it to some "universal" standard, and you don't want God in the picture, how about the Golden Rule? I wouldn't want to be aborted or killed, so I wouldn't want others to be aborted or killed (even if I can't ask them).
Aha, but by the same token I wouldn't want to have to go through an unwanted pregnancy, and so should not force one on others.

Quote:
One would only need to use painkillers on something with a nervous system.
My point exactly.

Quote:
As I said before the lines for adoption are very long, and the process for adoption is very strict. Should we only adopt "third world children"? What about first world children? What if somebody wants to adopt one of them?
You're dodging the question. The point is that your would-be-adopted fetus removes an oppertunity for a born child to be spared starvation, illness and Emperor only knows what else.

Quote:
The fact is by putting them up for adoption they're giving them a chance, one that they cannot provide for the child otherwise. This is better than choosing to take away that child's life.
Except that it's robbing a child of the chance of getting a happy life. You're trading a fetus for a born child.

Quote:
If it's so wrong to have children, then we can back up a step and say, "well they should have used protection" or "they shouldn't have been having sex if they knew they couldn't handle it." So sex education and contraception should be made more widely available.
All well and fine, but if the fascists in the West Wing get it their way, those programs will be 'abstinence only'-biased, something that just doesn't work.

Quote:
As to Euthanasia, this is not "forcing a person to stay alive who has pain."

First off, we have medicines and treatments that can handle all sorts of pain, that includes depression (which fuels suicidal feelings). A person may feel like dying, but that doesn't mean we should intentionally kill them to "stop the pain." We can stop the pain other ways that don't involve killing.
While I myself am sceptical of 'assisted suicide', you do paint a very monochromatic picture here. Most painkillers dull your senses and slow your brain (and are addictive to boot) - living on them for prolonged periods of time carries its own distinct problems. I for one would rather not live at all than live permanently in a drug-induced stupor.

Quote:
As to refusing treatment, that's something entirely.
Agreed.

Quote:
Now if a person is trying to take their own life, should we stop them?
You cannot quite compare the two. People who try to commit suicide by themselves can usually recover from whatever caused them to attempt to take their own lives - primarily because most of those that can be saved are not all that determined. If they are, then you'll have a really hard time saving them.

Quote:
And finally, as to saying a fetus is just like anything else, we aren't that stupid. We know that a random bacteria isn't going to form into a human being on its own. Likewise a sperm that's in a test tube won't spontaneously become a human being either. And a bunny rabbit, no matter how cute and how many tricks it learns won't become a human being.
That's beside the point. The point is that it's a part of the mother's body. I've yet to see a 4 weeks old fetus exist in anything but a symbiotic relationship with its "host".

Quote:
This could be compared to other instances of society injustice towards certain members, such as slavery, genocide, women's rights, etc. There have been other disenfranchised classes in society before. The decision to "give" them rights was philosophical, emotional, etc. legal one. Was it right? Well, who knows, right?
However, in none of the above cases did the addition of rights hurt other people as gravely as in this.

Quote:
But that's a good argument for pro-life people continuing to oppose abortion, rather than some notion that they are "forcing their religion on everyone else."
The only thing wrong witht that is that it's a rationalisation.

Quote:
Besides, if you think something is objectively moral and right, wouldn't you be fighting for it too?
That hardly justifies fascism.

ShadowTemplar is offline   you may:
Old 09-19-2004, 11:19 AM   #56
reelguy227
Forumite
 
reelguy227's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: America
Posts: 510
Since when do u have to be born to be considered living ? Yu know whats funny is that I was born 3 months early ,my fathers wedding ring fit around my elbow and I wouldnt have survived had it been for a ventilator . I came out to early, does it still mean I wasnt human because I wasnt 9 months ? I was 7 months and had I not come out early enough I would have still been a "fetus" ,so technically I wasnt living was I ? Oh yeah ,my mothers life was in danger they didnt know if either she or I would live ,gee ,Im glad my parents didnt decide to abort me . Thank God for that .

God Bless ,
Reelguy.


"It was Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve. Pray for an end to abortion and Gay marriage."

"Prayer is weakness leaning on Omnipotence"
reelguy227 is offline   you may:
Old 09-19-2004, 06:13 PM   #57
Feanaro
Junior Member
 
Feanaro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Batcave
Posts: 321
Mmmmmm, the heated discussion. Well, i beleive abortion is wrong no matter what. It should be the responsibility of those ingaged in sexual activity to be safe. Now that doesn't mean that they won't get pregnant but they should keep this in mind before having sex. So if you look at it one way, no matter what type of birthcontrol you use, there is still a chance of getting pregnant. Therefor the two should know that there is a chance of getting pregnant. And that would negate any unexpected pregnancies. Seeing how there is a chance to get pregnant every time you have sex. And the mistake that two individuals had should not be the fault of the unborn child. abortion is taking away a life that someone could've had. Who knows what that person could've done for the world. But we'll never know, cause it was killed before they had a chance to live.

Now when rape comes into play, i have no idea what to do. I can understand how one would feel if they got pregnant because they were raped. And that they wouldn't want that child. So in that case i wouldn't know what one should do. But i would hope they would keep the child.


Feanaro is offline   you may:
Old 09-19-2004, 06:18 PM   #58
reelguy227
Forumite
 
reelguy227's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: America
Posts: 510
Great post Feanaro ,Great post !!! Couldnt have said it any better myself .


"It was Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve. Pray for an end to abortion and Gay marriage."

"Prayer is weakness leaning on Omnipotence"
reelguy227 is offline   you may:
Old 09-19-2004, 07:29 PM   #59
ET Warrior
PhD in horribleness
 
ET Warrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Evil League of Evil
Posts: 9,405
LFN Staff Member Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
As to Euthanasia, this is not "forcing a person to stay alive who has pain."

First off, we have medicines and treatments that can handle all sorts of pain, that includes depression (which fuels suicidal feelings). A person may feel like dying, but that doesn't mean we should intentionally kill them to "stop the pain." We can stop the pain other ways that don't involve killing. As to refusing treatment, that's something entirely.
I'm not really talking about suicide here so much as accelerated processing. There are a LOT of diseases that we have NO cures for, and they are almost ALWAYS fatal. Not only are they fatal, they're amazingly painful. All you're doing by not offering them the right to choose life or death is saying that it's more important that YOU fulfil YOUR sense of morality than THEY get to live or die how they choose.
Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
Let's say you're in a war and your buddy has been shot. He's crawling towards you with his guts hanging out. He's clearly near death and there's no medical attention within reach. He says "kill me..." weakly.

Do you take out your gun and shoot him in the head to "put him out of his misery" or is it equally moral to just run away, or hold his hand and try to comfort him until he dies? Or are you obligated to kill him because he asked you?
I think that if they ask you to kill them then it's being selfish not to. If they are obviously going to be dead within minutes and they're just as obviously going to suffer tremendously for those last several minutes of life, why keep them alive? I understand maybe if you can't kill them just because you're mentally incapable of shooting your own friend, but if you made the concious decision to force your friends painful end to be as long as possible, then I think you are being selfish and cruel.



ET Warrior is offline   you may:
Old 09-19-2004, 07:34 PM   #60
ET Warrior
PhD in horribleness
 
ET Warrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Evil League of Evil
Posts: 9,405
LFN Staff Member Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally posted by Feanaro
Who knows what that person could've done for the world. But we'll never know, cause it was killed before they had a chance to live.
But, had they chosen NOT to have sex in the first place, the kid would never have been CONCIEVED before it had a chance to live, so the end result is the same, and terminating a fetus before it has the physical capabilities of being aware of anything is not cruel, since it is not aware of pain or death or even it's own existance.



ET Warrior is offline   you may:
Old 09-19-2004, 10:41 PM   #61
Feanaro
Junior Member
 
Feanaro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Batcave
Posts: 321
Quote:
But, had they chosen NOT to have sex in the first place, the kid would never have been CONCIEVED before it had a chance to live, so the end result is the same, and terminating a fetus before it has the physical capabilities of being aware of anything is not cruel, since it is not aware of pain or death or even it's own existance.
Well, then you have the discussion coming back to beleifs. Whether the fact that a new baby is being made changes the outcome of certain things. You know like it's a wonderful life kind of thing. Had he not been born, You know what i'm trying to say? It's really hard to type what i'm thinking.
Also, do you KNOW that the fetus doesn't have feelings of pain? Or knows that it exists? (just for arguments sake)
Quote:
But, had they chosen NOT to have sex in the first place, the kid would never have been CONCIEVED before it had a chance to live, so the end result is the same,
Weak. It's an excuse to make abortion *seem* right. And make themselves feel better about it.


Feanaro is offline   you may:
Old 09-20-2004, 06:34 AM   #62
reelguy227
Forumite
 
reelguy227's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: America
Posts: 510
Feanro what are you talking about ? The "fetus" feels pain .

God Bless,
Reelguy.


"It was Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve. Pray for an end to abortion and Gay marriage."

"Prayer is weakness leaning on Omnipotence"

Last edited by reelguy227; 09-20-2004 at 11:47 AM.
reelguy227 is offline   you may:
Old 09-20-2004, 06:49 AM   #63
iamtrip
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Uzbekistan
Posts: 269
Official Press Release from the Roman Catholic Church

Quote:
The answer: "Every Sperm Is Sacred", Lyrics by Michael Palin and Terry Jones.

There are Jews in the world, there are Buddists,
There are Hindus and Mormons and then
There are those that follow Mohammad, but
I've never been one of them.

I'm a Roman Catholic,
And have been since before I was born,
And the one thing they say about Catholics is
They'll take you as soon as you're warm.

You don't have to be a six footer,
You don't have to have a great brain,
You don't have to have any clothes on,
You're a Catholic the moment Dad came, because

Every sperm is sacred,
Every sperm is great,
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

Every sperm is sacred,
Every sperm is great,
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

Let the heathen spill theirs,
On the dusty ground,
God shall make them pay for
Each sperm that can't be found.

Every sperm is wanted,
Every sperm is good,
Every sperm is needed,
In your neighborhood.

Hindu, Taoist, Morman,
Spill theirs just anywhere,
But God loves those who treat their
Semen with more care.

Every sperm is sacred,
Every sperm is great,
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

Every sperm is sacred,
Every sperm is good,
Every sperm is needed,
In your neighborhood.

Every sperm is useful,
Every sperm is fine,
God needs everybody's,
Mine, and mine, and mine.

Let the pagans spill theirs,
O'er mountain, hill and plain.
God shall strike them down for
Each sperm that's spilt in vain.

Every sperm is sacred,
Every sperm is good,
Every sperm is needed,
In your neighborhood.

Every sperm is sacred,
Every sperm is great,
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

iamtrip is offline   you may:
Old 09-20-2004, 07:04 AM   #64
ET Warrior
PhD in horribleness
 
ET Warrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Evil League of Evil
Posts: 9,405
LFN Staff Member Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally posted by Feanaro
Also, do you KNOW that the fetus doesn't have feelings of pain? Or knows that it exists? (just for arguments sake)

Weak. It's an excuse to make abortion *seem* right. And make themselves feel better about it.
My stance on Abortion is that I feel it's okay before the fetus has developed a nervous system, and without a nervous system there is no way for pain to be percieved, since pain is something our brain tells us after nerve endings send messages through the nervous system.


And it's not an excuse, what is the difference in outcome between having sex then aborting the baby or not having sex and never conveiving the baby? Either way it would never have come to be, since the sperm and egg that went into it wouldn't be the ones combining the next time you chose to engage in intercourse. Sure, the baby aborted may have been a true genius who cured cancer, but he also may have become another Unibomber. Or perhaps one of those eggs that a random woman lost to menstruation could have negotiated world peace, but we'll never know because she didn't turn it into a baby.

There are a lot of unkowns, but we can't live our lives by them.

Quote:
I was 7 months and had I not come out early enough I would have still been a "fetus" ,so technically I wasnt living was I ? Oh yeah ,my mothers life was in danger they didnt know if either she or I would live ,gee ,Im glad my parents didnt decide to abort me . Thank God for that .
Your anechdote has no real bearing on this discussion, because we're not talking about murdering babies who were born premature. It's obvious that your parents wanted you and wouldn't have aborted you or they would have done it well before 7 months. The argument here isn't that it takes 9 months to make a fetus a person, we're stating that it takes a certain level of development, that an early stage fetus does not have.



ET Warrior is offline   you may:
Old 09-20-2004, 07:13 AM   #65
Breton
Ta deg en bolle
 
Breton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,398
Quote:
Originally posted by reelguy227
Feanro what are you talking about ? The "fetus" feels pain .

God Bless,
Ricky.
A fetus isn't physically able to feel pain before the nerves has connected with the brain, which happens around the 30th week, long after time of abortion. And it most likely also requires a minimum of mental awareness to be able to feel pain like we do, which comes even later.

I'll probably write a longer post about the abortion issue in near future, but right now I don't feel like it


Penger er for kapitalister
kun papir for meg
så lenge jeg har penger til tippefrister
kan gjerne karl johan bli motorvei for meg


Postgirobygget, "Sløv uten dop"
Breton is offline   you may:
Old 09-20-2004, 07:30 AM   #66
El Sitherino
The Original.
 
El Sitherino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Planet Funkālnite.
Posts: 14,509
Hot Topic Starter LFN Staff Member Forum Veteran LF Jester 
you people seem to forget the instance of condom breaking.


“This body is not me. I am not caught in this body.
I am life without limit.”
El Sitherino is offline   you may:
Old 09-20-2004, 08:59 AM   #67
toms
v0.9
 
toms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: uk swamp
Posts: 3,490
it sucks when that happens...



Playing: Link to the Past, Astroboy, Kario Kart, Mario World (Micro) KOTOR 2: Sith Lords (Xbox) Morrowind (PC)
toms is offline   you may:
Old 09-20-2004, 10:46 AM   #68
El Sitherino
The Original.
 
El Sitherino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Planet Funkālnite.
Posts: 14,509
Hot Topic Starter LFN Staff Member Forum Veteran LF Jester 
Quote:
Originally posted by toms
it sucks when that happens...
no kidding. I freaked out when I broke one.


“This body is not me. I am not caught in this body.
I am life without limit.”
El Sitherino is offline   you may:
Old 09-20-2004, 11:05 AM   #69
LightNinja
The Ninjonator
 
LightNinja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Somewhere-Spain Status: Ninjonator
Posts: 1,998
Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
-I'm against Assisted Suicide/Euthanasia
!?!?!!?, euthanasia is not like suicide, euthanasia is when you are just a vegetal and you decide to die instead of life like a sponge which cant move.
That is freedom.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
My beliefs are based on religion and also on philosophy.
It seems you are american (i just say this bcuz americans are super religious [maybe im wrong])so your beliefs are based on religion about the euthanasia




~JA MP Total Conversion~
LightNinja is offline   you may:
Old 09-20-2004, 11:11 AM   #70
Feanaro
Junior Member
 
Feanaro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Batcave
Posts: 321
Quote:
A fetus isn't physically able to feel pain before the nerves has connected with the brain, which happens around the 30th week, long after time of abortion. And it most likely also requires a minimum of mental awareness to be able to feel pain like we do, which comes even later.
But, how do we know that the fetus can't feel anything, though. We cant ask it if this hurts. Couldn't there be a possibility that it feels before the 30th week.
Quote:
My stance on Abortion is that I feel it's okay before the fetus has developed a nervous system, and without a nervous system there is no way for pain to be percieved, since pain is something our brain tells us after nerve endings send messages through the nervous system.
I know you're not saying this as a means of birthcontrol, but if you allow abortion up to the point of the nervous system being developed. People will use abortion as a birthcontrol method. So basically it's a lose lose situation.


Feanaro is offline   you may:
Old 09-20-2004, 11:46 AM   #71
reelguy227
Forumite
 
reelguy227's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: America
Posts: 510
Quote:
Originally posted by Breton
A fetus isn't physically able to feel pain before the nerves has connected with the brain, which happens around the 30th week, long after time of abortion. And it most likely also requires a minimum of mental awareness to be able to feel pain like we do, which comes even later.

I'll probably write a longer post about the abortion issue in near future, but right now I don't feel like it
My mother works in an NICU and when they start IV's on 23 weekers ,they cry . How can that not feel pain ? Where do you get your info Breton ? About my argument about me being 7 months was that they deliver babies ,like me ,who are 6 months or more all the time and yet they kill the ones who are the same age through abortion ,why save one life and kill the other ? So just because its not wanted , its not living ?

God Bless,
Reelguy.


"It was Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve. Pray for an end to abortion and Gay marriage."

"Prayer is weakness leaning on Omnipotence"
reelguy227 is offline   you may:
Old 09-20-2004, 11:46 AM   #72
reelguy227
Forumite
 
reelguy227's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: America
Posts: 510
Quote:
Originally posted by Breton
A fetus isn't physically able to feel pain before the nerves has connected with the brain, which happens around the 30th week, long after time of abortion. And it most likely also requires a minimum of mental awareness to be able to feel pain like we do, which comes even later.

I'll probably write a longer post about the abortion issue in near future, but right now I don't feel like it
My mother works in an NICU and when they start IV's on 23 weekers ,they cry . How can that not feel pain ? Where do you get your info Breton ? About my argument about me being 7 months was that they deliver babies ,like me ,who are 6 months or more all the time and yet they kill the ones who are the same age through abortion ,why save one life and kill the other ? So just because its not wanted , its not living ?

God Bless,
Ricky.


"It was Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve. Pray for an end to abortion and Gay marriage."

"Prayer is weakness leaning on Omnipotence"
reelguy227 is offline   you may:
Old 09-20-2004, 12:41 PM   #73
ET Warrior
PhD in horribleness
 
ET Warrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Evil League of Evil
Posts: 9,405
LFN Staff Member Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally posted by Feanaro
But, how do we know that the fetus can't feel anything, though. We cant ask it if this hurts. Couldn't there be a possibility that it feels before the 30th week.
No, I don't believe so. There is honestly no possible way to interpret and recognize pain without a central nervous system. If you went in and had the nerves connecting your arm to your central nervous system deadened then you wouldn't be able to feel ANYTHING in your arm, unless you felt some form of phantom pain (similar to a phantom limb) but the only reason you would feel that is because you KNOW what you SHOULD be feeling it. An unborn fetus would not have that kind of knowledge and therefore would have no sense of pain OR awareness.

Quote:
My mother works in an NICU and when they start IV's on 23 weekers ,they cry
That's 23 weeks old Reelguy, almost 6 months. I'm not, and I think MOST of us are not advocating abortion THAT late into the term. I'm not certain exactly what point the nervous system develops in a fetus, but I don't agree with abortion past the 2nd to 3rd month, if that long, and I'm almost certain that the nervous system doesn't develop until at least the 4th - 6th month of pregnancy.



ET Warrior is offline   you may:
Old 09-20-2004, 01:07 PM   #74
reelguy227
Forumite
 
reelguy227's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: America
Posts: 510
I was replying to bretons 30 weeks to feel pain argument ,not you et . Sorry if it came across that way , .


"It was Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve. Pray for an end to abortion and Gay marriage."

"Prayer is weakness leaning on Omnipotence"
reelguy227 is offline   you may:
Old 09-20-2004, 02:34 PM   #75
Kain
I'm a ghost
 
Kain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 4,269
Current Game: Not so much.
Forum Veteran 10 year veteran! 
Quote:
Originally posted by InsaneSith
no kidding. I freaked out when I broke one.
I pulled out

Anyways, don't know why I'm doing this my stance is very simple:

1: Sex good
2: Fetus good
3: Baby good
4: Rape bad
5: Rape child aborted
6: Birth cause mother death bad
7: Birth cause mother death aborted
8: Accidents bad
9: Accident baby good

I like surprises.
Kain is offline   you may:
Old 09-20-2004, 02:49 PM   #76
iamtrip
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Uzbekistan
Posts: 269
Again the sorry assed organised religions can't keep their noises out.

If people want to abort or euthenize, then who is the church to impose their moral ideas on the rest of us? Fair enough if they kept them to themselves, but to actually believe they should have some infulence over everyone s just going too far.

Morals are a result of years of inbred indoctrination by religious bodies.
I'm not saying that everything the church says is wrong. I'm just pointing out that not everything it says is right.


The moral implications for killing a zygote or a collection of small cells should be considered no different than killing an ant or a bug. As most abortions are carried out in the first 12 weeks (3/4 within the first 3 weeks), I don't see the problem.

The only arguement I see here is a legal one as to qwhether a zygote should qualify legally as a 'life' and therefore murder/manslaughter.

iamtrip is offline   you may:
Old 09-20-2004, 07:15 PM   #77
reelguy227
Forumite
 
reelguy227's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: America
Posts: 510
Iamtrip ,what do yu think of abortions after the 12 weeks?

God Bless,
Ricky.


"It was Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve. Pray for an end to abortion and Gay marriage."

"Prayer is weakness leaning on Omnipotence"
reelguy227 is offline   you may:
Old 09-20-2004, 09:25 PM   #78
SkinWalker
Anthropologist
 
SkinWalker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Give critical thought a chance
Posts: 2,709
LFN Staff Member 
Not having a vagina or a womb, nor possessing the capability to carry an unborn child in my body, I have no opinion on abortion. I'm immediately disqualified.

I do, however, know some of the statistical facts that surround the issue:
  • 25.5% of women deciding to have an abortion want to postpone childbearing.
  • 21.3% of women cannot afford a baby.
  • 12.2% of women are too young (their parents or others object to the pregnancy.)
  • 3.3% of women have an abortion due to a risk to fetal health.
  • 2.8% of women have an abortion due to a risk to maternal health.
  • 54% of women having an abortion said they used some form of contraception during the month they became pregnant.
  • 90% of women who are at risk for unplanned pregnancies are using contraception
  • 8% of women having an abortion say they have never used contraception.
  • 88% of abortions occur during the first 6 to 12 weeks of pregnancy.
  • 60% of abortions are performed on women who already have one or more children.
  • 47% of abortions are performed on women who have already had one or more abortions.
  • There are approximately 46 million abortions conducted eacy year, 20 million of them obtained illegally.
  • In 1996, there were 1,365,700 abortions in the United States (AGI, 1999).

The abortion issue is far too polarized for either side to expect anything but the status quo for years to come.

What amazes me is that the same people who are up in arms about the inhumanity of aborting even a mere blastocyst with the mental capacity of a bacteria turn a complete blind eye to the inhumanities that they may actually be able to affect positive change with in their lifetimes. There is much that could happen if every anti-abortion activist would also pick up a pen and paper and write their congressional representatives, UN officials, and world leaders, asking that the atrocities being committed in more than five African and Asian nations come to a halt.

In Sudan alone, an alarming number of abductions of young girls and boys is occuring. Children were sometimes taken directly from their parents, who were then killed if they protested. In an attack on Goz Naim in late January, for instance, a twenty-year old Zaghawa woman named Mecca Hissab was shot to death by janjaweed when she cried and tried to stop the militia from taking her three-year-old son. At a minimum the numbers of abducted children are likely in the hundreds, ranging in age from infants to adolescents. A young man from Jirai, a village some forty-five kilometers from Kepkabiya, saw the bodies of three young boys he knew; they had been shot by the militia during the attack on the village. The boys were aged ten, twelve, and thirteen.

In Darfur, residents of the town stated that sixty-seven people were killed and forty-one schoolgirls and female teachers were raped by the militia. Some were raped by up to fourteen men and in front of their families. The same reports stated that some women had been branded on the hand following the rapes, apparently in an effort to permanently stigmatize them.

Witnesses from dozens of villages report that the janjaweed deliberately assaulted and killed civilians, both those perceived as rebel supporters and others lacking any link to the rebel forces. They're killing men, women, and children... as well as women with unborn children and infants.

Click this link and do something, and I'd be more interested in listening to your position on abortion. At that point, you would demonstrate that you really give a **** about humanity and the precious nature of life and your words would gain credibility.

Until such time, anyone whose reproductive organs reside outside their bodies that speaks out against abortion is merely blindly following some superstition or cult and is without genuine compassion. Either that, or the fact that the genocides and mass-homicides occuring in Africa don't matter since they only affect a bunch of black people far, far away.


Reference:

The Alan Guttmacher Institute (1999). Sharing Responsibility: Women, Society and Abortion Worldwide, New York: AGI.


A Hot Cup of Joe - My Blog

Not finding an intellectual challenge in the Swamp? Try the Senate Chambers!

Evolution and How We Know It's Right - Post your thoughts!
Debate Strategies & Tactics - Polish your online debate skills and offer your own advice
SkinWalker is offline   you may:
Old 09-20-2004, 09:43 PM   #79
SkinWalker
Anthropologist
 
SkinWalker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Give critical thought a chance
Posts: 2,709
LFN Staff Member 
Quote:
Originally posted by reelguy227
Iamtrip ,what do yu think of abortions after the 12 weeks?
The percentage of abortions prior to 12 weeks is 88% of 1,365,700. That makes 163,884 the number of abortions after 12 weeks. Even if it is assumed that none of these abortions are about the safety of the mother or due to serious problems with the pregnacy, this is still a low number compared to the number of deaths due to Heart Disease, which in 2001 was 700,142.

Why are there no anti-fatty foods demonstrations in front of McDonalds and Church's Chicken? Why aren't anti-heart disease nut jobs throwing pipe bombs through the windows of ice cream shops and sniping French chefs?

Heart Disease is four times the killer of abortion.

For that matter, it's over 200 times the killer of domestic terrorism.


A Hot Cup of Joe - My Blog

Not finding an intellectual challenge in the Swamp? Try the Senate Chambers!

Evolution and How We Know It's Right - Post your thoughts!
Debate Strategies & Tactics - Polish your online debate skills and offer your own advice
SkinWalker is offline   you may:
Old 09-21-2004, 06:07 PM   #80
Spider AL
A well-spoken villain...
 
Spider AL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Help, help, I'm stapled to my workstation.
Posts: 2,162
Quote:
Not having a vagina or a womb, nor possessing the capability to carry an unborn child in my body, I have no opinion on abortion. I'm immediately disqualified.
I came from a womb, via the other. I reckon that gives me sufficient experience to comment.

Personally I think once the foetus has developed sufficient nervous activity to qualify it as a life-form, it's no longer merely the business of the mother as to whether she should terminate the pregnancy or not. A major medical research project should be undertaken every year using the latest technology, to accurately divine the average age at which an embryo responds to stimulus, erring on the side of the unborn child's welfare.

Once the embryo advances forward and becomes a functional organism, it's a living creature. Living creatures should only be euthanised on medical grounds. It's axiomatic.


[FW] Spider AL
--
Hewwo, meesa Jar-Jar Binks. Yeah. Excusing me, but me needs to go bust meesa head in with dissa claw-hammer, because yousa have stripped away meesa will to living.
Spider AL is offline   you may:
Post a new thread. Sorry, this thread is closed. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Go Back   LucasForums > Network > JediKnight Series > Community > Senate Chambers > Abortion debate (older thread)

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:34 AM.

LFNetwork, LLC ©2002-2011 - All rights reserved.
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.