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Old 09-21-2004, 07:16 PM   #81
reelguy227
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Originally posted by SkinWalker
The percentage of abortions prior to 12 weeks is 88% of 1,365,700. That makes 163,884 the number of abortions after 12 weeks. Even if it is assumed that none of these abortions are about the safety of the mother or due to serious problems with the pregnacy, this is still a low number compared to the number of deaths due to Heart Disease, which in 2001 was 700,142.

Why are there no anti-fatty foods demonstrations in front of McDonalds and Church's Chicken? Why aren't anti-heart disease nut jobs throwing pipe bombs through the windows of ice cream shops and sniping French chefs?

Heart Disease is four times the killer of abortion.

For that matter, it's over 200 times the killer of domestic terrorism.
Why you ask ? Because people know the foods they eat are fattening and they can make the choice whether they are going to eat those foods that will give them heart disease and eventually kill them or not . They have a choice to their life ,babies do not when they are aborted ,thats why .


What did they do to deserve to be killed as there life is just beginning ? You talk about kidnappings in Sudan ,kidnappings are one thing ,being killed before you even have a chance to live is another ,at least those kidnappees had a chance to live some part of their lives ,the aborted children dont . Thats why Im not on a brigade for heart disease people ,thats why Im on a brigade for the most innocent of people,the aborted ones who never were given a chance to live and murdered by their own parents ,thats why !!!!!!!

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Old 09-21-2004, 07:43 PM   #82
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Quote:
What did they do to deserve to be killed as there life is just beginning ? You talk about kidnappings in Sudan ,kidnappings are one thing ,being killed before you even have a chance to live is another ,at least those kidnappees had a chance to live some part of their lives ,the aborted children dont . Thats why Im not on a brigade for heart disease people ,thats why Im on a brigade for the most innocent of people,the aborted ones who never were given a chance to live and murdered by their own parents ,thats why !!!!!!!

God Bless,
Reelguy.
Surely you must care about those young teens who decide not to have sex, right? Look at all those countless children, denied a right to exist solely because it would be a discomfort to thier parents. I only support abortion when the child is still thoughtless; no more than a mere spider or fish. Afterall, we openly kill fishes, cows, goats, and chickens, we infact make giant prisonhouses, where they have no purpose but to be slaughtered and end up in our belly. What's so different about a mass of cells with no form of thought or intellegence? Once they develop a conscious, then they become human.



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Old 09-21-2004, 07:56 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally posted by reelguy227
at least those kidnappees had a chance to live some part of their lives ,the aborted children dont . Thats why Im not on a brigade for heart disease people ,thats why Im on a brigade for the most innocent of people,the aborted ones who never were given a chance to live and murdered by their own parents ,thats why !!!
Have you ever heard the saying a taste of honey's worse than none at all? Those people who are killed have already experienced life and they KNOW what they will be missing, and they have had the chance to love and have people love them, which is being taken away.

An unborn fetus isn't even AWARE that it exists yet, so it has no way of knowing anything that might be or could have been.

And just like Tyrion said, and as I have said multiple times, aborting an unwanted child has the same results as the parents not having sex, yet you don't seem to be anti-abstinence, and why not? Not having sex prevents my sperm from turning into the babies they are being produced to create, so isn't THAT being inhumane to those unborn children?



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Old 09-21-2004, 08:41 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally posted by reelguy227
Why you ask ? Because people know the foods they eat are fattening and they can make the choice whether they are going to eat those foods that will give them heart disease and eventually kill them or not . They have a choice to their life ,babies do not when they are aborted ,thats why .
So are you implying that the toddlers who are fed Happy Meals™ from age 2 until 13 have the ability to choose? Do their now life-long eating habits and self-esteem translate to "justice served?"

Quote:
Originally posted by reelguy227
You talk about kidnappings in Sudan, kidnappings are one thing, being killed before you even have a chance to live is another
One could very well argue that the thousands of infants and toddlers killed in mass-homicidal and genocidal acts this year amount to being "killed before you even have a chance to live." I think those children (poor, black, little to offer the Western world) have as much or more right to life as any unborn blastocyst or developing fetus. At least the 2 year old has survived the birthing process already.

And since we're on the subject, would not life-long slavery and sexual torture and abuse be less humane than a quick, powerful suction that shreds and kills the fetus within a few short seconds? I'm not saying I'm pro or anti abortion, its an emotionally charged proceedure any way you cut it, but I'd rather have my life ended in a few short seconds and never know what I missed, than to have been taught a language and the value of a mother's love and have her raped and killed in front of me so I can be the sex-slave for as long as I have the will to live.

Anti-abortionists are good at painting an ugly picture to evoke emotion for their cause. They apparently aren't very good hearing it.

Fight a cause that you can affect... gain credibility... then tell me what you think about abortion.

By the way, you didn't respond to my post about the 88% (I've even read 90%) of the abortions that are done prior to 12 weeks. Do you equate that unthinking formation of cells to any higher form of life than an appendix or gall bladder? Does the chicken you ate have more rights since it has an apparent consciousness? Can you prove that cows aren't higher life forms than H. sapiens and more intelligent, so intelligent that they remain benevolent to society even though they know they are a food source? Hindi culture holds these creatures to be sacred... perhaps they're on to something that Western religion has yet to evolve to.


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Old 09-21-2004, 09:38 PM   #85
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And just like Tyrion said, and as I have said multiple times, aborting an unwanted child has the same results as the parents not having sex,
But the means aren't the same, and in some views it's murder to abort the child. But it's the word "unwanted" that really pisses me off. You shouldn't put yourself in the postion of having a child if you don't want one. It's your responsibility to have safe sex, and accept the consequences if you're not safe. A child shoudn't have to feel the consequences of stupid people.


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Old 09-21-2004, 09:42 PM   #86
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But safe sex doesn't always work, and there could still be a pregnancy resulting from it.



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Old 09-21-2004, 09:51 PM   #87
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Originally posted by Feanaro
A child shoudn't have to feel the consequences of stupid people.
Are you saying that the victims of rapists are "stupid" because they decided to not practice "safe sex"? (Oh, and while we are on the subject, there is no such thing as "safe sex".) What do you do when these victims are women who were not even allowed to make this "decision"?
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Old 09-21-2004, 10:38 PM   #88
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Are you saying that the victims of rapists are "stupid" because they decided to not practice "safe sex"? (Oh, and while we are on the subject, there is no such thing as "safe sex".) What do you do when these victims are women who were not even allowed to make this "decision"?
Why don't you go and read the rest of this thread. And see what i have to say about that, before you shoot your mouth off. ANd i meant in a sense of consentual (sp?) sex.


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Old 09-21-2004, 10:41 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally posted by Feanaro
You shouldn't put yourself in the postion of having a child if you don't want one. It's your responsibility to have safe sex, and accept the consequences if you're not safe.
Man has been roaming the planet for over 150,000 years. In all human cultures, promiscuity is probably one of the few common cultural characteristics, present in both taboo and norm. But even the taboos wouldn't exist if it wasn't human nature to do the nasty whenever the opportunity presents itself.

I don't think your morals or the morals of any culture or religion will change the fact that people ****. Often.

Unplanned pregnancy will happen.

Unwanted babies will result.

Abortions will happen whether legal or not.

Better to have established processes and methods in place that can be monitored and supervised by authority than crack-house coathanger procedures.

People will choose safety and thus submit themselves to the process, which can include education and counseling prior to the final decision. More lives can be saved if legal than if prohibited if one thought about it.


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Old 09-21-2004, 10:45 PM   #90
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Abortions will happen whether legal or not.
You know you're right. And it's kind of just like drugs, you know people are going to do it, even if it's illegal. So in a sense this argument is pointless and we are all wasting our time. Because abortion will happen no matter if it is illegal.


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Old 09-21-2004, 11:12 PM   #91
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Which is why I advocate spending your time doing something that will make a difference!

I wasn't blowing smoke up everyone's collective butts when I wrote about the atrocities in Sudan, and other nations around the globe. More Rwandas will occur unless we pressure world leaders to act. There are already signs that this works: Kofi Annan recently made some harsh remarks about the situation in Darfur and is probably going to bring this to the UN Sec Council. I believe this is because of citizen activists.

Go to the link I posted above (or on the previous page by now?) and see what you can do.

Save some lives.


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Old 09-22-2004, 03:39 AM   #92
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i think a human fetus, if only a bunch of cells or not (after all we're all "only cells", or more precise "only atoms, electrons, protons etc..) actually is human and especially human life.
in fact every single fetus is life, not to say every single cell is life.

i could even go more into it and say (many) atoms are life and many could be (depending on the element), nearly every electron could be life, depending on which/what kind of atom it belongs to. every cell is made of atoms and so on.

so the line where life really begins is not clear for me, since life can only exist because of certain "circumstances".

--

however, within the first 3 months a pregnancy is not "very sure", within that time miscarriage is not an uncommon thing. the reasons for that vary from stress over smoking and unhealthy food to unknown (read: "natural selection"?).

so, my question is, are those who are anti abortion in the common sense also against "abortion" in the uncommon sense? i mean i see pregnant women smoking, drinking, doing drugs, i see others smoking in front of pregnant women without even caring and so on. this is during pregnancy.

then there are those who smoke and drink when they still give babies the breast, or smoke in front of their children without caring for their health.

i see abortion as a relative small issue to what we what we do to the bunch of cells we "produce", thinking or not, unborn or not or whatever, and compared to skinwalkers point about humanity it is nearly nothing.


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Old 09-22-2004, 07:47 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally posted by SkinWalker
The percentage of abortions prior to 12 weeks is 88% of 1,365,700. That makes 163,884 the number of abortions after 12 weeks. Even if it is assumed that none of these abortions are about the safety of the mother or due to serious problems with the pregnacy, this is still a low number compared to the number of deaths due to Heart Disease, which in 2001 was 700,142.

Why are there no anti-fatty foods demonstrations in front of McDonalds and Church's Chicken? Why aren't anti-heart disease nut jobs throwing pipe bombs through the windows of ice cream shops and sniping French chefs?

Heart Disease is four times the killer of abortion.

For that matter, it's over 200 times the killer of domestic terrorism.

Heart disease is a silent killer.
Thus people don't recognise that fatty foods should be radically protested against.
Plus you get some pleasure out of eating the food.

Abortion isn't pleasurable and if it was to kill, its effects would be almost immediate. Added to that the religious nutjobs imposing their views on everyone else and similarly the 'pro life' idiots, the topic becomes a protestor's paradise.


After 12 weeks, the dangers to the mother of an abortion spiral.
Even so, if the mother wants to risk it, I think up to around week 20 is still acceptable.
Week 16 sees the baby's shape fully formed, although obviously still growing.

Personally, I believe week 20 is perhaps the landmark as certain albeit rare cases have seen premature babies born after week 20 survive.
Pre-week 20, I believe the baby should not be considered 'alive' in a legal terms.

I'm not saying that I woiuld personally find a termination at such a late stage a pleasant thing to do (personally, I couldn't imagine any reason to terminate after week 12...you've had 3 months to decide).

So basically, I think anything before week 12, preferably in the zygote stages would be acceptable to me.
Anything after week 12, I don't think should be terminated (although merely from an emotional level).
In my opinion, anything after week 20 should be considered legally sentient /'alive' and shouldn't be allowed to be terminated (besides the obviouss increased dangers).

That said, I think people should be free to abort at whatever stage. It is after all their choice, not mine, and noone elses.
As long as they stay within the confines of the law and what the law determines to be 'leaglly alive' (providing the law looks at the situation perspectively, not religiously), they should have the free choice to abort whenever.

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Old 09-22-2004, 06:36 PM   #94
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Originally posted by Feanaro
Why don't you go and read the rest of this thread. And see what i have to say about that, before you shoot your mouth off.
Frankly, I don't see you saying anything about the situations I brought up:
Quote:
Originally posted by Feanaro
Now when rape comes into play, i have no idea what to do. I can understand how one would feel if they got pregnant because they were raped. And that they wouldn't want that child. So in that case i wouldn't know what one should do. But i would hope they would keep the child.
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Old 09-22-2004, 07:26 PM   #95
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[i]Originally posted by SkinWalker
So are you implying that the toddlers who are fed Happy Meals™ from age 2 until 13 have the ability to choose? Do their now life-long eating habits and self-esteem translate to "justice served?"
No im not . The parents should know that what they are feeding to kids is bad for them ,shouldnt they ,you are all up on choice and stuff for abortion ,dont the parents have the choice to feed their kids happy meals ?


Quote:
[i]Originally posted by SkinWalker
One could very well argue that the thousands of infants and toddlers killed in mass-homicidal and genocidal acts this year amount to being "killed before you even have a chance to live." I think those children (poor, black, little to offer the Western world) have as much or more right to life as any unborn blastocyst or developing fetus. At least the 2 year old has survived the birthing process already.
Ya they survived it because they werent killed while developing ,like abortion does.

Quote:
[i]Originally posted by SkinWalker
And since we're on the subject, would not life-long slavery and sexual torture and abuse be less humane than a quick, powerful suction that shreds and kills the fetus within a few short seconds? I'm not saying I'm pro or anti abortion, its an emotionally charged proceedure any way you cut it, but I'd rather have my life ended in a few short seconds and never know what I missed, than to have been taught a language and the value of a mother's love and have her raped and killed in front of me so I can be the sex-slave for as long as I have the will to live.[/B]
Id rather live some of my life than be killed before its going to take place . And by saying the kidnapees thing youre saying that the aborted children were always going to turn out to be kidnapped ,you dont know that ,they could have grown up to a poor person or a billionare . Besides, if I was kidnapped I wouldnt care because Id try my hardest to unite my sufferings with the sufferings of the Cross of Christ .



Quote:
[i]Originally posted by SkinWalker
By the way, you didn't respond to my post about the 88% (I've even read 90%) of the abortions that are done prior to 12 weeks. Do you equate that unthinking formation of cells to any higher form of life than an appendix or gall bladder? Does the chicken you ate have more rights since it has an apparent consciousness? Can you prove that cows aren't higher life forms than H. sapiens and more intelligent, so intelligent that they remain benevolent to society even though they know they are a food source? Hindi culture holds these creatures to be sacred... perhaps they're on to something that Western religion has yet to evolve to. [/B]
All I believe is that all human life is precious ,from conception until death, you cant equate humans with their organs or a cow or chicken .

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Old 09-22-2004, 07:43 PM   #96
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No im not . The parents should know that what they are feeding to kids is bad for them ,shouldnt they ,you are all up on choice and stuff for abortion ,dont the parents have the choice to feed their kids happy meals ?
So then you would petition against both parents feeding thier kids happy meals and those that do abortions, right? Afterall, the child(or undeveloped fetus) has no choice in the matter either way.

Quote:
Id rather live some of my life than be killed before its going to take place . And by saying the kidnapees thing youre saying that the aborted children were always going to turn out to be kidnapped ,you dont know that ,they could have grown up to a poor person or a billionare . Besides, if I was kidnapped I wouldnt care because Id try my hardest to unite my sufferings with the sufferings of the Cross of Christ .
Then why don't you go out and impregnate every woman you see? I mean, you would want your children to live a life afterall?

Quote:
All I believe is that all human life is precious ,from conception until death, you cant equate humans with their organs or a cow or chicken .
Course, it's not too fair to force that belief onto others...and no, I'm not forcing my beliefs on you since I'm not forcing your future mate to have an abortion.



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Old 09-22-2004, 08:32 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally posted by reelguy227
What did they do to deserve to be killed as there life is just beginning ?
but they have yet to even have life, thus they cannot be "murdered". Murder is the taking of a life, abortion is preventing life. kthx.


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Old 09-23-2004, 02:05 AM   #98
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I have 2 points to say:POINT 1

ever notice how society gradualy steps to getting worse and worse?

If were killing babies NOW it will be a matter of time before we start killing the elderly! eventually we,ll start killing anyone whos not perfect!

dont beleive me? for example, in the 19th century, swimsuits had to cover women's whole bodies! an ankle would have been considered improper! throughout the century they gradualy got smaller to those little bitty bikinis and they are considered a standerd!

were killing unborn babies and some criminals now, dont be surprised if later we start killing the handycapped, then the elderly and the list will go on...

reelguy, i agree that abortion is murder wrather people say so or not! if we dont end abortion soon it will only get worse! do you agree?

POINT 2

also remember this quote?
Quote:
Originally posted by Mort-Hog
Whether it's a 'human' or not isn't important.

It still makes more sense to abort it. It's in the interests of everyone involved.
whoever does an abortion should think of the PRIMARY person involved!



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Old 09-23-2004, 03:21 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally posted by kipperthefrog
dont beleive me? for example, in the 19th century, swimsuits had to cover women's whole bodies! an ankle would have been considered improper! throughout the century they gradualy got smaller to those little bitty bikinis and they are considered a standerd!
how is this an example for:
Quote:
ever notice how society gradualy steps to getting worse and worse?
???

Quote:
If were killing babies NOW it will be a matter of time before we start killing the elderly! eventually we,ll start killing anyone whos not perfect!
abortion has NOTHING to do with killing babies, and especially nothing to do with killing the "not perfect".

and there is no such thing as "not perfect". also, only those who have a thought of "non perfect" others, will be able to start to kill "them".


and did you ever thought about that eventually there will be the day where 'christians' start crusades and kill NON BELIEVERS.. oh.. wait a second.. that surely wont happen.. again. :dozey:

Quote:
were killing unborn babies and some criminals now, dont be surprised if later we start killing the handycapped, then the elderly and the list will go on...
do i read a "bye bye death penalty" here?
..

Quote:
whoever does an abortion should think of the PRIMARY person involved!
the primary person involved is the woman.


hmm..

see abortion is not like killing elderly or handycapped people, it is not like killing an unborn baby. an unborn baby is nearly fully developed, ready to go out and "kick some parents butt" ..
(absolutely positive spoken ;P)

abortion during the first couple of weeks of pregnancy is more like cutting flesh (read: taking living human cells away, blood cells, skin cells, muscle cells etc) out of your arm or whereever, with only one difference: if everything runs fine, only then there is the possibility that those cells you take develop to an organism which is able to live on it's own.


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Old 09-23-2004, 07:47 AM   #100
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Quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
whoever does an abortion should think of the PRIMARY person involved!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


the primary person involved is the woman.
the primary person involed is the BABY!


Quote:
abortion has NOTHING to do with killing babies, and especially nothing to do with killing the "not perfect".
Abortion IS killing babies! the only difference is its before they were BORN!



Quote:

originally posted by kipperthefrog
ever notice how society gradualy steps to getting worse and worse?

If were killing babies NOW it will be a matter of time before we start killing the elderly! eventually we,ll start killing anyone whos not perfect!

dont beleive me? for example, in the 19th century, swimsuits had to cover women's whole bodies! an ankle would have been considered improper! throughout the century they gradualy got smaller to those little bitty bikinis and they are considered a standerd!
maybie i wasnt clear here!
we start out with strict rules, for example,

-rule #1 no killing

later we wanted to change the rules slightly, to fit our "society"

-rule #1 no killing
...unless its a war

later we leagalise he death penalty

-rule#1 no killing
...unless ita a war
...unless he was a muderer

later we change the rules a little more!

-rule #1 no killing
...unless its a war
...unles he was a murderer
...unless your a police oficer trying to stop a criminal
...unless it was self defense

i suppose sometimes killing is necesary! (althouh some people who get the death penalty are innocent but later on we decide to legalise a little unesesary killing

-rule #1 no killing
...unless its a war
...unles he was a murderer
...unless your a police oficer trying to stop a criminal
...unless it was self defense
...unless its an unborn baby

see? we start off with a little evil but eventualy we are FLOODING with evil!

before we know it, we have the law like THIS:

-rule #1 no killing
...unless its a war
...unles he was a murderer
...unless your a police oficer trying to stop a criminal
...unless it was self defense
...unless its a burglar broke in your house
...unless its an unborn baby
...unless its someone in the hospital about to die ANYWAY
...unless the person WANTS to die
...unless the person is too old and weak and unfit to live
...unless its hanicapped
...unless he was speeding
...unless its your niebor whos dog did his business on YOUR LAWN!

we START OUT killing so called "little blobs of tussue and eventully we'll have senseless killing! NOW do you get the picture?

the concept is, if we start killing uborn babies NOW, later on well find MORE kinds of people we want to kill and well do MORE killing!



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Old 09-23-2004, 08:50 AM   #101
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You made up that list of the laws on killing. In Roman civilization it was perfectly acceptable to kill someone if they were your slave, and an emperor could kill whoever he wanted to. This implies that it's not always a linear increase in the amount of killing that society will deem acceptable



Quote:
Abortion IS killing babies! the only difference is its before they were BORN!
No, abortion is killing a group of cells that will EVENTUALLY develop into a baby. Difference.



Edit - How do you feel about artificial incemination? In those cases they take multiple eggs and fertilize them with multiple sperm, and then they only implant ONE of those fertilized eggs, and either freeze or dispose of the rest. THOSE fertilized eggs are NO DIFFERENT than the fertilized eggs in a mothers body that are going to get aborted.



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Old 09-23-2004, 11:56 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally posted by kipperthefrog

were killing unborn babies and some criminals now, dont be surprised if later we start killing the handycapped, then the elderly and the list will go on...
actually we're going more towards the no longer killing criminals, criminal killing has been happening for a long time, if you don't believe that you are a fool. Abortion is preventing a life, prevention of a life can't equate to murder, because the life has yet to start. Murder is taking away the life of someone who is already alive and living it.


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Old 09-23-2004, 02:00 PM   #103
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Insane sith ,the zygote is living ,how can you say its not ? It is the start of a human and to exterminate the start of a human is to exterminate the human that would have lived a life ,it has human dna ? Why isnt it human ,why isnt it living in your eyes ?

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Old 09-23-2004, 03:36 PM   #104
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So you're against say...taking out your appendix? Those cells are very much alive, and they have human DNA!



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Old 09-23-2004, 05:03 PM   #105
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Originally posted by ET Warrior
So you're against say...taking out your appendix? Those cells are very much alive, and they have human DNA!
No Im not ,because an appendix cant develop into a human being ,a fertilized egg can !!!


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Old 09-23-2004, 05:30 PM   #106
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And I respond to THAT assertion with my quote from earlier in this thread

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How do you feel about artificial incemination? In those cases they take multiple eggs and fertilize them with multiple sperm, and then they only implant ONE of those fertilized eggs, and either freeze or dispose of the rest. THOSE fertilized eggs are NO DIFFERENT than the fertilized eggs in a mothers body that are going to get aborted, so should they not be thrown away? Should it be required that ALL of them are implanted and brought to term?

I added a little to the end of the quote...



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Old 09-23-2004, 05:51 PM   #107
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Sure . I dont believe in in-vitro fertilization anyway ,so yes they should.


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Old 09-23-2004, 06:04 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally posted by reelguy227
Insane sith ,the zygote is living ,how can you say its not ? It is the start of a human and to exterminate the start of a human is to exterminate the human that would have lived a life ,it has human dna ? Why isnt it human ,why isnt it living in your eyes ?
It might be "living", but it has no thought and doesn't "exist", in terms of conciousness. Hardly human, I would say.

And if you keep on talking about abortionists exterminating lives, then why don't you want every female to be pregnant all the time? Both the sex cells and the fertilized egg have absolutely no thought, both can develop into a human, but yet somehow it's right to prevent fertilizing an egg but to kill a fertilized egg is wrong, even though in both cases the being in question would never exist.



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Old 09-23-2004, 06:30 PM   #109
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A zygote is a developing human ,a sperm cell isnt and cant develop into one at all,you need both a sperm and an egg and once they unite the human is starting to be created. We are talking about zygotes here, not sperm or egg cells ,so dont go to the other extreme and bring up sperm and egg cells .

So your saying not being consciouss makes you not human ? What about the most brain dead of people or people who are extremely mentally retarded ,they are not technichally consiouss in your terms ,does that make these people not human in your eyes ? They are no different than a zygote then .

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Old 09-23-2004, 06:31 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally posted by reelguy227
Sure . I dont believe in in-vitro fertilization anyway ,so yes they should.
So if someone cannot become pregnant through normal means it's tough cookies for them?



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Old 09-23-2004, 06:33 PM   #111
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Yup.


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Old 09-23-2004, 06:33 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tyrion

It might be "living", but it has no thought and doesn't "exist", in terms of conciousness. Hardly human, I would say.
A person in a hospital bet in a coma is uncocence too! is it all right to kill THEM??

just a thought..

PS abortianist call us PROLIFE people "anti abortionists" to make us sound negitive, so we should call PROCHOICE people "ANTI LIFE"


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Old 09-23-2004, 06:41 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally posted by kipperthefrog
A person in a hospital bet in a coma is uncocence too! is it all right to kill THEM??
But these people have experienced conciousness already, we're talking about the removal of cells pre-ANY conciousness / awareness.

Quote:
PS abortianist call us PROLIFE people "anti abortionists" to make us sound negitive, so we should call PROCHOICE people "ANTI LIFE"
I am VERY MUCH not an anti-life person. I am anti-war, anti-murder, anti-death penalty, anti-killing. So I dont think it would be quite right to call me anti-life

if we're going to call people pro-abortion anything else it should be anti-imposingofbeliefsontoothers.



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Old 09-23-2004, 07:10 PM   #114
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But these people have experienced conciousness already, we're talking about the removal of cells pre-ANY conciousness / awareness.
So, what do you know about when the fetus actually becomes a fetus? I wanna know when you think it's okay to abort and not to abort. Give me a time frame. Cause i'm not sure when you're thinking a group of cells becomes a fetus. This may sound like i'm being a jerk, but i'm trying not to be. I'm just not sure what time frame you're looking at.


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Old 09-23-2004, 07:17 PM   #115
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Quote:
A zygote is a developing human ,a sperm cell isnt and cant develop into one at all,you need both a sperm and an egg and once they unite the human is starting to be created. We are talking about zygotes here, not sperm or egg cells ,so dont go to the other extreme and bring up sperm and egg cells.
But that's not the point. The point is that both of them have no intellegence at all, so what's the difference. The end result is that both don't exist...with the baby aborted before it could think, it's like the parents never concieved.

Quote:
So your saying not being consciouss makes you not human ? What about the most brain dead of people or people who are extremely mentally retarded ,they are not technichally consiouss in your terms ,does that make these people not human in your eyes ? They are no different than a zygote then .
I feel somewhat the same way towards extremely mentally retarded people, although those who are that extreme probably wouldn't survive that long...besides, I thought you could get an abortion late in the pregnancy if the doctors found your baby was very mentally ill? I have a pretty mentally retarded cousin by the way(autistic and cannot talk), but I wouldn't want him to die, however I feel it's up to the parent's choice ultimately.

Quote:
A person in a hospital bet in a coma is uncocence too! is it all right to kill THEM??
Like ET said, they have already experienced being concious, and almost always are still thinking inside a coma. If they aren't...usually they are dead anyway.

Quote:
So, what do you know about when the fetus actually becomes a fetus? I wanna know when you think it's okay to abort and not to abort. Give me a time frame. Cause i'm not sure when you're thinking a group of cells becomes a fetus. This may sound like i'm being a jerk, but i'm trying not to be. I'm just not sure what time frame you're looking at.
I'm talking before there are brain waves, so usually <12 weeks.



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Old 09-23-2004, 07:36 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tyrion
I'm talking before there are brain waves, so usually <12 weeks.
Same here. I think if you cannot make your decision in three months then it should be made for you, and you should have to go through with it, and I agree with Tyrions basic description of level of development.



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Old 09-23-2004, 08:00 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally posted by kipperthefrog
A person in a hospital bet in a coma is uncocence too! is it all right to kill THEM??
no, because they have a sub-level of conciousness. Read a medical journal my friend.

and a zygote is no more advanced than the ebola virus. Infact the ebola virus is more advanced than a zygote, so you're a murderer for inoculating people to prevent them from getting the ebola virus, how dare you.


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Old 09-23-2004, 08:38 PM   #118
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Quote:
originally posted by insansith
and a zygote is no more advanced than the ebola virus. Infact the ebola virus is more advanced than a zygote, so you're a murderer for inoculating people to prevent them from getting the ebola virus, how dare you.
Are you saying that the first cells of an unborn baby is a desiese??


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Old 09-23-2004, 08:40 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally posted by kipperthefrog
Are you saying that the first cells of an unborn baby is a desiese??
no, I'm saying that this disease itself is more advanced of a "lifeform" than the zygote, so if you consider destroying a zygote murder, then it's also murder to destroy the ebola virus.


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Old 09-23-2004, 08:50 PM   #120
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Human baby cells are not the same as a desiese! it is a life trying to begin!

a diesese is just destructive to the body


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