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Old 09-23-2004, 09:12 PM   #121
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Quote:
Originally posted by kipperthefrog
Human baby cells are not the same as a desiese! it is a life trying to begin!

a diesese is just destructive to the body
A disease is a life trying to begin, too. When you say destructive to the body, though, you realize it's because it has to eat our cells to survive, right?



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Old 09-23-2004, 09:53 PM   #122
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So how long in the pregnancy does it take to know you're pregnant?


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Old 09-23-2004, 10:14 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally posted by Feanaro
So how long in the pregnancy does it take to know you're pregnant?
A day after the egg has been fertilized. You have to use a pregnancy tester, but it isn't excactly rocket science to know to use a tester after you had unprotected sex...



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Old 09-24-2004, 01:55 AM   #124
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a virus is not a desease, it's a form of life. a lifeform.. ok it's a lower lifeform, but given the right conditions it can multiply, spread, die. an early fetus can't. .. err.. except dying.

the desease you are talking about is only the result of the virus' "life-activity" ..


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Old 09-24-2004, 05:13 AM   #125
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Quote:
Originally posted by Feanaro
So how long in the pregnancy does it take to know you're pregnant?
At most it shoudl take a girl a month to realize that she's pregnant. After she misses her first period that's a sign she should maybe look into testing for being pregnant.



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Old 09-24-2004, 07:14 AM   #126
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The whole point Feanro ,kipperthefrog and I are trying to make to you guys is that ,first of all ,the ibola virus cant develop into a human , your appendix cant develop into a human and nothing else except a zygote can develop into a human . A developing human is a human ,and who are we to say we have dominion over their right to live their life from THEIR conception until THEIR death ,emphasis on their . Its helpful to know my parents didnt think of me while I was in the womb as some object that they had dominion over ,I was a life and so were we all . You know whats funny is that we wouldnt be having this conversation had our parents aborted us all in the womb ,because like you guys say they have dominion over our life when its not even theirs they are dealing with . Although I disagree with this totally .

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Old 09-24-2004, 10:10 AM   #127
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So I guess your all for killing viruses....?
What gives you the right to be objective and decide which is a higher lifeform?
Just because a zygote can grow into a human, you assume it should survive.
Why isn't the survival of a virus just as important; after all, it is alive and arguably more valuable than some humans, no names (ie.Bush).

If you're pro-life or a religious warrior, then you should campaign for all life, not just the life that you somehow (pehaps divinely) determine to be valuable.

If you're pro life, you should realise that not everyone holds the same views, nor should they.
Great, your pro life. A zygote is a living entity with the same rights as a fully grown person...but thats your opinion.

Other people's opinions state that a zygote does not have rights as a person as it is the mere formation of a life. It is not a sentitent human being. It is a microscopic clump of cells, similar to a bacteria. What it will grow into is ultimately irrelevant as at this basic stage, as at this very premature stage it is no different than a bacteria or what you described as a 'lower' form of life.
This argument is as equally as valid, but should not be forced onto people who don't want to believe such a thing (for whatever reason(s)).


If the law was to create a kind of halfway banning. A point at which a zygote becomes a feutus and qualifies as a living, breathing human entity (such as week 16) and therefore bans any termination after such a stage, that would give people of both dispositions the freedom to do as they please.

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Old 09-24-2004, 10:24 AM   #128
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Quote:
Originally posted by reelguy227
A developing human is a human ,and who are we to say we have dominion over their right to live their life from THEIR conception until THEIR death ,emphasis on their .
who are you to say humans are a higher lifeform and more worthy of life than a puppy, kitten, or another animal?


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Old 09-24-2004, 10:41 AM   #129
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I'm curious what the other pro-lifers have to say about this quote of mine
Quote:
How do you feel about artificial incemination? In those cases they take multiple eggs and fertilize them with multiple sperm, and then they only implant ONE of those fertilized eggs, and either freeze or dispose of the rest. THOSE fertilized eggs are NO DIFFERENT than the fertilized eggs in a mothers body that are going to get aborted, so should they not be thrown away? Should it be required that ALL of them are implanted and brought to term?
Not Reelguy, beacuse your stance on In-vitro fertilization seems pretty unfair AND extreme.



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Old 09-24-2004, 10:47 AM   #130
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You guys still didnt answer my question ,you just answered it with another question .

Quote:
Originally posted by iamtrip


If you're pro-life or a religious warrior, then you should campaign for all life, not just the life that you somehow (pehaps divinely) determine to be valuable.

I might just do that .

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Old 09-24-2004, 10:49 AM   #131
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Quote:
Originally posted by kipperthefrog
a diesese is just destructive to the body
humans are destructive to nature too. as agent smith said (ripping off from many comics and ideologists) humans are a virus.


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Old 09-24-2004, 10:51 AM   #132
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Quote:
Originally posted by reelguy227
You guys still didnt answer my question ,you just answered it with another question ..
Did you even ask a question?



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Old 09-24-2004, 10:54 AM   #133
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Quote:
Originally posted by reelguy227
A developing human is a human ,and who are we to say we have dominion over their right to live their life from THEIR conception until THEIR death ,emphasis on their ?

That question

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Old 09-24-2004, 11:10 AM   #134
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well technically if it's still developing it has yet to be an actual human. If it's at an early stage all someone has to do is tamper with the structuring of the DNA similiar to natural process, and you'd end up with a non-human organism. So it's not really human until a fully developed stage. So before three months or so it can't even be classified as a human, just a blank canvas that could become a human, or not. Perhaps someone can describe this better, I'm not exactly active in all this stuff anymore.


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Old 09-24-2004, 11:11 AM   #135
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Well we don't have to answer that, because we don't agree that a developing human is a human at the early stages of pregnancy. What we're saying is that we DO have control over a small group of cells inside of our bodies that, without mutation or manipulation will become a human being. EVENTUALLY.



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Old 09-24-2004, 11:20 AM   #136
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That only works if you apply it to all life, including bacteria that may kill you. Otherwise, who are you to decide who is worthy to live?

And I would imagine the mother has a right to decide to abort as this unsentient zygote (physically no different to a bacteria at this early stage) can grow inside of her.



Quote:
well technically if it's still developing it has yet to be an actual human. If it's at an early stage all someone has to do is tamper with the structuring of the DNA similiar to natural process, and you'd end up with a non-human organism. So it's not really human until a fully developed stage. So before three months or so it can't even be classified as a human, just a blank canvas that could become a human, or not. Perhaps someone can describe this better, I'm not exactly active in all this stuff anymore.
This is completely incorrect.
A zygote is definately not a blank slate as you put it.
A zygote contains all of the chromosomes as a fully formed, grown adult. It can easily be argued that a zygote is a human (Although I don't agrre with it).

Yes the DNA can be changed. But the DNA of a fully grown adult can be changed effectively changing a Human into a non-human.
The fact that it would be far easier to accomplish this with a zygote (only 1 or a few cells exist, therefore only these few cells need to be altered) compared to a fully grown human (all of the billions of cellss would need to be altered) is irrelevant.

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Old 09-24-2004, 11:37 AM   #137
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Quote:
Originally posted by iamtrip
A zygote is definately not a blank slate as you put it.
if you read, I never said a zygote was a blank slate. I was talking about early stages of life, this could be during conception itself.


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Old 09-24-2004, 12:21 PM   #138
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Re: ..

What does everyone think about abortions after 12 weeks ,just curious?

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Old 09-24-2004, 01:17 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally posted by InsaneSith
if you read, I never said a zygote was a blank slate. I was talking about early stages of life, this could be during conception itself.
No thats false too I'm afraid.
The moment the egg is fertilised, it contains all of the chromosomes to develop into a full adult. No 'extra' ones are made during pregnancy. There's nothing blank about it; the cell just multiplies and certain cells are adapted for function.
Hence why it could be argued that from the earliest stages of pregnancy (ie. from the moment of fertilisation) a human is created.



As for abortion after 12 weeks...I think its the mother's perogative. After all it is her body.
However, she has had 3 motnhs to decide, although cases of abortion after 12 weeks are in the minority (12%) and the majority of this figure is for emergencies (Such as risks to the mother's life).
The feutus isn't formed as such until 16 weeks, which is when I believe the living baby should be recognised by law.
Before that period, I think the non-sentent mass of cells should have no more rights than a bacteria or other single/low cell animal/lifeform.

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Old 09-24-2004, 04:51 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally posted by iamtrip



As for abortion after 12 weeks...I think its the mother's perogative. After all it is her body.
No, its not her body ,its the childs body . Isnt it ?

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Old 09-24-2004, 06:31 PM   #141
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Okay, all the ethics and religious nonsense aside, let's take a moment to look at the reality of the situation: We have a population problem at the moment. If abortions were completely forbidden, it would hardly help matters. As it stands currently, we may be looking at enforced limitations on family size, sterilisations and fines for excessive fertility soon enough.


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Old 09-24-2004, 07:32 PM   #142
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Quote:
Originally posted by reelguy227
No, its not her body ,its the childs body . Isnt it ?
You can hardly call it a body, that would be akin to me scraping some cells off of my arm into a petri dish and calling those a body. They aren't.



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Old 09-24-2004, 07:39 PM   #143
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In what we were talking about ET, I meant after 12 weeks , but the zygote still is a living body .

As for spiderals proposition ,here is a link that says that the worlds population is declining and that it will hurt economic growth ,this isnt a religious or repubican site if that helps any ,its straight from Msn money .

http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/...0.asp?GT1=5100

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Old 09-24-2004, 08:21 PM   #144
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But banning abortion and forcing mothers to give birth to unwanted babies ain't gonna help the dying population much either.
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Old 09-24-2004, 09:25 PM   #145
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Quote:
Okay, all the ethics and religious nonsense aside, let's take a moment to look at the reality of the situation: We have a population problem at the moment. If abortions were completely forbidden, it would hardly help matters. As it stands currently, we may be looking at enforced limitations on family size, sterilisations and fines for excessive fertility soon enough.
Well as it stands every American family has to have 1.5 children to keep the U.S. population at a healthy growth as well as keeping the work force strong. But this is an entirely different discussion. Abortion should not be a way to keep population in check. Responsibility is the only way.


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Old 09-24-2004, 09:36 PM   #146
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Quote:
Originally posted by Spider AL
Okay, all the ethics and religious nonsense aside, let's take a moment to look at the reality of the situation: We have a population problem at the moment. If abortions were completely forbidden, it would hardly help matters. As it stands currently, we may be looking at enforced limitations on family size, sterilisations and fines for excessive fertility soon enough.
OMFG, I think you and I agree on something.
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Old 09-24-2004, 10:49 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally posted by ET Warrior
You can hardly call it a body, that would be akin to me scraping some cells off of my arm into a petri dish and calling those a body. They aren't.
Except the crap off your arms isn't going to grow up in 20 years and drink beer and smoke weed with you if you don't scrape it off. Not that I so much mind abortion. That's just not a good example.


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Old 09-25-2004, 03:44 AM   #148
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12 weeks the baby isn't even fully formed.
After 16 weeks the baby is formed and merely needs to grow.
Abortions at this stage are rare and are on the most part only carried out due to a high risk to the mother. In my view, the mother has the right to decide; save herself or her child.

Personally I don't see any reason for aborting after 12-16 weeks for any other reason than for health...after all you've had 3 motnhs to decide to keep the child, whilst it was no more than a clump of cells, physically no different to a bacteria or a microscopic organism.

The arguement that the moment the father's gametes and mother's gametes combine creates a life seems stupid (Although there is everything in this single cell needed to eventually grow into a life).
Its not like killing a human. Its like killing bacteria; of which you kill millions each day unknowingly.


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Old 09-25-2004, 06:42 AM   #149
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a bacterium.


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Old 09-25-2004, 07:45 AM   #150
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Quote:
Originally posted by iamtrip
No thats false too I'm afraid.
alright, my mistake.

after 12 weeks I have to say abortion should only be considered if the mother is in danger.


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Old 09-25-2004, 08:32 AM   #151
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Quote:
Originally posted by CapNColostomy
Except the crap off your arms isn't going to grow up in 20 years and drink beer and smoke weed with you if you don't scrape it off. Not that I so much mind abortion. That's just not a good example.
But I'm not talking about what those cell are GOING to become. I was talking about at the time and place, you can't call that group of cells the childs body because it is NOT a body. That was my point.



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Old 09-25-2004, 09:01 AM   #152
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reelguy227:

Quote:
As for spiderals proposition ,here is a link that says that the worlds population is declining and that it will hurt economic growth ,this isnt a religious or repubican site if that helps any ,its straight from Msn money .
You'll find quite a few articles claiming that "there's no global population problem". But that's rubbish. There are more people alive today than in any period in history. The population may be older... but then due to our insane experimentation with the artificial impregnation of grannies, people are having children older. Plus you'll find just as many articles claiming that "there's no global warming". Ha.

PLUS, that article you quoted focussed on our developed nations which naturally exhibit slower population growth than undeveloped nations.

So there.

Feanaro:

Quote:
Well as it stands every American family has to have 1.5 children to keep the U.S. population at a healthy growth as well as keeping the work force strong.
Oh. My. God. At a rough estimate the US uses 25% of the world's resources, and it's only 4% of the world's population. Don't you think there are ENOUGH of you?

Quote:
Abortion should not be a way to keep population in check. Responsibility is the only way.
Yeah, because the populace of the US is REALLY responsible, isn't it.

Kain:

Quote:
OMFG, I think you and I agree on something.
Damnit, Kain's finally found the way to make me arbitrarily change my point of view...


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Old 09-25-2004, 12:20 PM   #153
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There is undoubtedly an increasing number of people. Its hardly rocket science to realise theres 6 billion people and most of them will reproduce, spawning more children...who will then reproduce, spawning more children...
Any suggestion of the contrary is no more believable than saying the Greenhouse effect is made up or George Bush is trustworthy.


However, abortion really isn't a means of population control. The numbers are no where near significant enough. I'm not saying it doesn't help contribute, but the impact is miniscule when compared to products such as contraceptives, which have (are having) a far superior impact on birth/population control.

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Old 09-28-2004, 09:20 PM   #154
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(Sorry i fell out of the forums for a while! my motherboard crashed! i got it fixed and im back in the game!)

my mom says that most women (if not all women) who has had an abortion has regretted it!

see? people feel SORRY after they done it! nobodt feels remorse after they they done a root canal or an apendix removal or a virus curing! PEOPLE REGRET ABORTIONS!


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Old 09-28-2004, 09:23 PM   #155
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Your mother being a reliable source of information because...?

I'm not saying she's wrong, I just want to get her credentials straight.


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Old 09-29-2004, 03:54 AM   #156
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Quote:
Originally posted by kipperthefrog
my mom says that most women (if not all women) who has had an abortion has regretted it!
Now there's a set of empirical data.


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Old 09-29-2004, 06:49 AM   #157
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Apparantly kipperthefrog's mother has impartially interviewed all women who have undertaken an abortion.

There should be a rule.
No arguing "My mommy says so, so it must be true"

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Old 09-29-2004, 01:01 PM   #158
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Oh. My. God. At a rough estimate the US uses 25% of the world's resources, and it's only 4% of the world's population. Don't you think there are ENOUGH of you?
What are you talking about? I was just mereley stating that if the U.S. stops producing having enoguh children to one day maintain the work force we will be in big trouble. Kind of what china will be going through soon. You know they can only have one child. So many of them want boys so they can carry on the family name and get better jobs etc. So there is a shortage of females since 1980, when the one child thing went into effect. SO now they are having problems with the next generation even being born! you see what i'm saying?


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Old 09-29-2004, 06:22 PM   #159
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Technically a virus isn't an organism.
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Old 09-29-2004, 06:57 PM   #160
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The argument of "well that baby could grow up to cure cancer or AIDS" is very poor. If the mother is an 18-year-old teenage girl, that baby isn't going to have the chance to grow up properly.

Most likely, this is what will happen:

The father will just stay out of everything, being the kind and loving, responsible young man that all the girls go for.

The mother will drop out of school, get a crappy job, live with her parents, or in a run-down apartment.

That kid will grow up without any parental guidance (which means it'll be a bully in school, and when its older, starts drinking, smoking, breaking the law, getting pregnant/getting girls pregnant, etc.), and drop out of school (whoa, it's a cycle).

An unwanted baby ruins both the mother's and child's life. Yeah, the mother was foolish to let this happen, but why should she be forced to be a failure for the rest of her life because of one mistake?
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