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Old 12-23-2005, 01:42 AM   #81
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Concerning the sainthood and money issue. I always understood it in that your good behaviour in life is worth so many "morale points" and that money could be used to buy extra "morale points" on top of your base-line amount, allowing you to receive a better travel package. So Meche was so good in life that she did not need to pay anything extra to qualify for a NN ticket.

Regarding the "dead rich saint" comment, I think this is just an example of Manny's deadpan humour. The joke is that his situation is so dire that only a saint with lots of money could give him the boost he needs. He was just exaggerating for comic effect.
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Old 12-23-2005, 02:20 AM   #82
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Horray! Seems I've been mistaken about one thing and right about the other: it's not bad at all to understand most of GF-talk figuratively, and it is possible to find a logical explanation to the apparent paradox.

'Morale points'. Sounds like a strategy-games' term, huh? We've all here assumed for some reason that a soul can buy a whole travel package, not it's qualification, so to speak. I imagine these 'morale points' must be pretty expensive, though, so that even the very rich sinners couldn't buy advantageous tickets (or, maybe, if you are deemed to work off you loose the chance to buy those 'points' completely...); and then - Justice triumphs.

Yeah, honestly, the qualification-on-sell idea appeals to me. Reasonable enough, and right now appears as a sort of epiphany .

Last edited by Charie; 12-23-2005 at 02:53 AM.
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Old 12-23-2005, 06:14 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Charie
What are the 'far-fetched solutions' you are talking about?

My opinion concerning this has always been that it has something to do with the 'four-year journey of the soul' plot... er, hole/mistake, whatever .
[...]
Plus, providing a perfect answer to the comment above, Celso's adventure in the forest and his wife's death and haste trip would have had a whole year to work out.

I've no idea, however, how this split could be done, but I think it's possible. Or I may fail to see something significant, since I have never replayed the game.
Well, one of the solutions is the same than the one you provided.
I always thought (not to spoil the fun in the game, that was for) that between picking Celso and Bruno up some time goes by; as well as between Bruno and Meche. There is no evidence that points the other way, so I figure they had to cut some content or either eliminate it from the game.
Also, Celso had a walking stick and a direction; Meche had nothing, so she might have got lost.
I never considered this hole to be serious; it can be avoided with a bit of imagination, or by just obviating it.

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Originally Posted by Shuz
"morale points"
Karma?

It does sound possible but I have heard the word money exclusively, in the game.

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Regarding the "dead rich saint" comment, I think this is just an example of Manny's deadpan humour. The joke is that his situation is so dire that only a saint with lots of money could give him the boost he needs. He was just exaggerating for comic effect.
Now that you mention it...I think you are right there, I completely disregarded that.
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Old 12-23-2005, 06:39 AM   #84
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There is no evidence that points the other way, so I figure they had to cut some content or either eliminate it from the game.
You think the gap in the course of the first year was indended, but got cut out in the process? The dialogues were still all consecutive there, weren't they?

Though I have never been really disturbed by this inconsistency either. DOD is my favourite location all the same.
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Old 12-23-2005, 08:53 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Charie
El Virus

You think the gap in the course of the first year was indended, but got cut out in the process? The dialogues were still all consecutive there, weren't they?

Though I have never been really disturbed by this inconsistency either. DOD is my favourite location all the same.
No, I like to think that they had it planned when they thought the story, but when they begun to develop the game, just left it out and modified the dialogues for them to make sense . It's a plot hole.

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Though I have never been really disturbed by this inconsistency either. DOD is my favourite location all the same.
Really?, I thought you were more of a "Train Station/Aztec Pyramid" person.
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Old 12-23-2005, 11:39 AM   #86
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I think the money they use to pay for the travel packages is just the material "manifestation" of the good things they did in life. The better they were in life, the more money they have when they arrived to the land of the dead. The only thing that disturbs me is that comment Manny makes: "You can pick up that money you were buried with, and buy a better travel package from us"... maybe is a methaphoric way to say they recieve the money when the die, depending on the life they had
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Old 12-23-2005, 12:24 PM   #87
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No, I like to think that they had it planned when they thought the story, but when they begun to develop the game, just left it out and modified the dialogues for them to make sense
Oops, bad phrasing. I meant the 'gap' in that reply of mine as a 'certain interval of time'. So, your answer is 'yes'. I think that's a great theory (mainly because I doubt I'd come up with that myself). Not that I agree or disagree, for that's entirely possible, but unconfirmed.

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I thought you were more of a "Train Station/Aztec Pyramid" person.
0.0 Where did you get that idea from??
For you're right, at least partially. What I love most is the Mayan style in GF, which begins and ends the story. They, in a way, go together, in my view. The DOD location, however, is much more colourful and varied than the Portal, so if pressed to choose one I'd say DOD.

What's yours favourite?

Yohein
That's stretched. Do you mean that seriously?
'Morale points' sound much more real, since 'the powers that be' of the LotD would still have to know somehow whether the person is good or not. Those 'records' of the souls in the DOD have to come from somewhere, and they apparently include some representation of a soul's virtues and sins.
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Old 12-23-2005, 05:19 PM   #88
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I know. The problem is the game sometimes talks about "having a good life" and sometimes about "having money". And, apparently, it makes no difference, so I thought both things are related. Of course, the phrase Manny says at the beggining doesn't make much sense with this.
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Old 12-23-2005, 05:49 PM   #89
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By the way, there's another thing that makes me think that "buried money" is not that real: what about the gazpacho poissining at the beggining? you go to pick up souls at the restaurant, where they buried or not? Maybe they were buried (with money) but the souls are picked up at the original place where they died. It's a bit confusing
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Old 12-23-2005, 09:02 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Charie
0.0 Where did you get that idea from??
For you're right, at least partially. What I love most is the Mayan style in GF, which begins and ends the story. They, in a way, go together, in my view. The DOD location, however, is much more colourful and varied than the Portal, so if pressed to choose one I'd say DOD.
I was just taking a guess .

The ambientation of this game is, in my opinion, what makes it so special. Instead of using the typicall science fiction or fantasy setting, they chose to use one made up by many different myths (Mayan culture; the edge of the world, etc.). By doing this, they were able to create a very unviable world, which momentarily suspends reality for the player who considers it to be completely normal.
Besides, there are many things taken from my favourite decades.

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What's yours favourite?
My favourite? years 3 and 4 are excellent. The sordid & isolated environments like the edge of the world or the whole train station, added to the melancholy of El Marrow and Rubacava's almost extreme downfall, are incomparable.


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Originally Posted by Yohein
By the way, there's another thing that makes me think that "buried money" is not that real: what about the gazpacho poissining at the beggining? you go to pick up souls at the restaurant, where they buried or not? Maybe they were buried (with money) but the souls are picked up at the original place where they died. It's a bit confusing.
I've always wondered how they got their clothes as soon as they got to the LotD.
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Old 12-23-2005, 11:45 PM   #91
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Maybe they were buried (with money) but the souls are picked up at the original place where they died. It's a bit confusing
Oh I see dozens of coffins filled with money up to the lid.
I agree that souls are picked up where their bodies had died.

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By doing this, they were able to create a very unviable world
What do you mean, 'unviable'?
-----------------------------------
Your favourite decades are 40's-60's?

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The sordid & isolated environments like the edge of the world or the whole train station, added to the melancholy of El Marrow and Rubacava's almost extreme downfall, are incomparable.
To my mind, the one fault of the Portal is coldness. I'm freezing under two thick blankets here, and you expect me to like that North Pole. Plus, if I need melancholy, I can get more than enough of it looking out of my window. White ground, the same colour of the sky, dull grey pavement. As senor Martinez said, 'Ah, phooey!'

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I've always wondered how they got their clothes as soon as they got to the LotD.
So have I. Meche didn't seem to have clothes wrapped in that brown paper. I don't remember Bruno's appearance as a soul, though.
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Old 12-24-2005, 05:16 AM   #92
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So have I. Meche didn't seem to have clothes wrapped in that brown paper. I don't remember Bruno's appearance as a soul, though.
I don't think Bruno had them either, but since he's already clothed when he comes out of the car he must have picked them up on the way. The question is, where.


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Old 12-24-2005, 05:36 AM   #93
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Oh I see dozens of coffins filled with money up to the lid.
That's what Manny says at the beggining of the game, and the manual says that too: the game is based in a mayan culture where corpses are buried with money to help them in the other life. I think they tried to show this in the game using that phrase Manny says, but seeing the rest of the game... well, doesn't fit too well.

By the way, the noun you see in Domino's car where you go to the poisoning has clothes too Probably they have a set of clothes in the car for each case

Well, the final question is: are they really buried with money to buy the travel packages or it depends on the good they were in life? maybe they depend on both things, as someone said before, but I don't think the original idea was depending on how good you were in life AND how much money do you have. Just look nouns, as Domino and Manny say, they are like "Double N guaranteed customers", and I don't think they necessarily have a lot of money... that's why I said the money they have depends on the life they had.
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Old 12-24-2005, 06:37 AM   #94
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the manual says that too: the game is based in a mayan culture where corpses are buried with money to help them in the other life. I think they tried to show this in the game using that phrase Manny says, but seeing the rest of the game... well, doesn't fit too well.
Yes, this was mentioned somewhere earlier - that 'buried with money' might be just a reference to the ancient tradition.

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Probably they have a set of clothes in the car for each case
Sounds ridiculous)). Or maybe souls come with their clothes 'in the same package', just not wearing them.

========================
Further reganding the money issue.
In Rubacava Celso (again that blasted Celso) told Manny that his wife had all his money. I assumed it was her inheritance after husband's death. Then, Celso wouldn't have had any money at his arrival in the LotD, as well. Yet, Manny sais (that guy always sais something contradictory) that he sells walking-sticks. How is that possible?

Seems there's no escape from the money matter even in the LotD.
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Old 12-24-2005, 08:37 AM   #95
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Bruno has nothing on the package were Manny picks him up. So the only possibility is that the reapers have the clothes in the car, even if it sounds ridiculous to you But, in a world where the DOD cars are parked in hangers or people is made only from bones and drink and eat just like that, I think havin some clothes in the trunk is not THAT ridiculous
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Old 12-24-2005, 09:21 AM   #96
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Oh, if so, then clothes in the trunk aren't ridiculouser than everything else, indeed.
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Old 12-24-2005, 09:35 AM   #97
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By the way, that thing you said about Celso's wife having his money... that's another strange line in the game. Maybe he's saying his wife didn't buried the money with him and that's the raison why he couldn't get a good travel package... but that doesn't make much sense. Uff, this is too much... Maybe someone should write to Tim Schafer and ask this details
Who knows, maybe the creators didn't want us to have a very complete vision of the land of the dead (in fact, we don't see lots of cities in the game), so they could focus in the important facts: story, characters development, humor... etc.
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Old 12-24-2005, 10:02 AM   #98
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Who knows, maybe the creators didn't want us to have a very complete vision of the land of the dead (in fact, we don't see lots of cities in the game), so they could focus in the important facts: story, characters development, humor... etc.
Indeed. Most likely these things weren't explained because it would have taken credibility from the game.

For example, the game implies that the characters can have sex despite their lack of the needed equipment. If the game actually explained how this is possible it would make the entire thing seem ridiculous and far fetched, so it's better to let it remain a mystery.


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Old 12-24-2005, 11:13 AM   #99
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It is one thing to not explain everything about the story and it's setting (which is great; it leaves room for imagination, and makes the story more real), and another to leave small inconsistencies where matters should be understandable by common logic. Not knowing as opposed to knowing completely contradictory facts. Well, both lead to pondering, for different reasons.

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For example, the game implies that the characters can have sex despite their lack of the needed equipment. If the game actually explained how this is possible it would make the entire thing seem ridiculous and far fetched, so it's better to let it remain a mystery.
Oh yes, this is definitely an IMPORTANT matter. If the game actually explained how this is possible, it would be kinda porno-game, don't y'think? So yeah, better to remain un-enlightened about some facts.
But... well. Mea culpa, madames and monsieurs, mea maxima culpa: this issue had crossed my mind once, as well. I just dismissed it then, settling on a notion that love is much more platonic for the dead.
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Old 12-24-2005, 12:31 PM   #100
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I think the problem of the game is that there are lots of humoristic phrases related with the LOTD "system", and when you are playing and you hear the joke you laugh, but later, when you replay or think about the game, you realised that phrase "contradicts" another one. And the manual doesn't help, in fact, when it describes some places, it makes some comments even more confusing...
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Old 12-24-2005, 01:06 PM   #101
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That's right. The good thing is that such confusing moments don't spoil enjoyment of GF at all. Moreover, they are hardly related to the game itself .
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Old 12-24-2005, 01:42 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Yohein
I think the problem of the game is that there are lots of humoristic phrases related with the LOTD "system", and when you are playing and you hear the joke you laugh, but later, when you replay or think about the game, you realised that phrase "contradicts" another one. And the manual doesn't help, in fact, when it describes some places, it makes some comments even more confusing...
Absolutely. Anyone remember in the beginning of Year 3 when Glottis and Manny mention that it's not dangerous for Manny to be at the bottom of the sea because he no longer has lungs? That means he doesn't breathe. Yet later in Year 3 when he and Meche are locked up in the cooler she tells him to "go waste the air in his room". Also, without lungs it is rather difficult to exhale cigarette smoke, yet they all do it.

So yeah, taking things too literally will lead to confusing situations. The difficult part is deciding what's important, what's just a joke and what shouldn't be dwelled on.

Suddenly, Charie's point of view is starting to make a lot more sense.


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Old 12-24-2005, 02:10 PM   #103
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Don't forget the "Was Salvador a reaper?" thread I opened some time ago, more confusing parts on the game In fact, I think these discussions show how wonderful Grim Fandango is. I mean, is the only game I know where the creators can leave lots of "holes" and don't explain important parts and when you finish the game you feel that it was perfect and extraordinary completed. Impressive.

Well, as a sum up, give the conclussions you got, please I'm starting to be a bit confused. Are they buried with money or not?
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Old 12-24-2005, 02:27 PM   #104
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Well, as a sum up, give the conclussions you got, please I'm starting to be a bit confused. Are they buried with money or not?
I have no idea. Until this discussion I assumed that no real money was involved at all, that the deserving souls simply got their tickets regardless of how wealthy they were and that selling tickets meant handing them out to those who deserved them. I thought that the mentioned money was simply one way of measuring their good deeds. Sort of like the moral points mentioned earlier.

And now... No idea. I don't think anyone of us can give a definite answer to that. You better ask Schafer. Though I'm sure that if he saw this thread, he'd tell us to relax, stop thinking about things like this and simply enjoy the game.


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Old 12-24-2005, 03:11 PM   #105
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The long post thing applies here as well

Damn, those are a lot of posts. Better answer then one by one.

----------------

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Originally Posted by Charie
What do you mean, 'unviable'?
Not viable is the appropriate term. What I meant was that they had created an unrealistic setting (which seem naturally and is not questioned by the player).

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Your favourite decades are 40's-60's?
30s to 50s; but the game does not have a clear time location.

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To my mind, the one fault of the Portal is coldness. I'm freezing under two thick blankets here, and you expect me to like that North Pole. Plus, if I need melancholy, I can get more than enough of it looking out of my window. White ground, the same colour of the sky, dull grey pavement. As senor Martinez said, 'Ah, phooey!'
Ha, we are melting under 30ºC and a lot of humidity. I really miss cold and rainy days.

Anything that re-creates a depressive environment on a profound level is of my interest.

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Further reganding the money issue.
In Rubacava Celso (again that blasted Celso) told Manny that his wife had all his money. I assumed it was her inheritance after husband's death. Then, Celso wouldn't have had any money at his arrival in the LotD, as well. Yet, Manny sais (that guy always sais something contradictory) that he sells walking-sticks. How is that possible?
If you check Manny's computer at the beginning, he says that Celso did not deserve the stick.

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Originally Posted by Yohein
Maybe someone should write to Tim Schafer and ask this details
Though I know you said it as a joke, I think that asking the developers about it would ruin the whole thing.
A short time ago, someone rasied a question about what happened when somebody was sprouted; then another person read the answer Schafer gave in an interview or in the strategy guide, and it was quite disappointing.

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Who knows, maybe the creators didn't want us to have a very complete vision of the land of the dead (in fact, we don't see lots of cities in the game), so they could focus in the important facts: story, characters development, humor... etc.

I agree to this, it adds to the mystery and fun of the game.

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But... well. Mea culpa, madames and monsieurs, mea maxima culpa: this issue had crossed my mind once, as well. I just dismissed it then, settling on a notion that love is much more platonic for the dead.
I think the issue appeared to every person who played the game at least once.

And I could go on and on but I am tired of quoting.

Something that I find pretty important about the game is the regress of cities like El Marrow and Rubacava (It comes hand in hand with an earlier comment of mine). El Marrow, a cheerful and colourful city that was the first stop for the newly deceased, had been changed into a dark town with an excessive amount of neon signs and publicity; the DOD was no longer active (at least that is what Manny seems to hint) which is reasonably significant. Nuevo Marrow was for me a symbol about the conflict of ideals around it; the quarrel between the LSA and Hector LeMans*, and on a bigger scale freedom and submission.
And Rubacava, a city that held the elite of the Land of the Dead, a place where practically everyone would have liked to live in, was now an almost deserted and neglected place.

*How did Hector get so much power? Did I miss something, or he was virtually the owner of the city?
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Old 12-24-2005, 03:24 PM   #106
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*How did Hector get so much power? Did I miss something, or he was virtually the owner of the city?
That is an interesting point. I find it unlikely that he alone ruled the place. Perhaps he had the most power and respect since he ran the fake NN Ticket business, but I'm sure that he didn't own the city, if you know what I mean.

Nuevo Marrow was probably filled with opportunists by the time Manny returned there and I'm sure that at least some of them did their best at trying to reach the top. Most likely they didn't get as far as Hector, but surely there had to be other important people too.

Meh, I'm not getting anywhere with this post. I'm just repeating the same thing over and over again and can't turn my actual vision into words.


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Old 12-24-2005, 04:08 PM   #107
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I think Eva and Copal say Hector is one of the important guys of the city, so maybe he was in the govern and he gradually gained power with the money. By the way, you think Hector should have been a reaper but he didn't want to work and stayed in the city? or maybe he wasn't that bad in life but got corrupted?
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Old 12-24-2005, 04:53 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by VampireNaomi
That is an interesting point. I find it unlikely that he alone ruled the place. Perhaps he had the most power and respect since he ran the fake NN Ticket business, but I'm sure that he didn't own the city, if you know what I mean.

Nuevo Marrow was probably filled with opportunists by the time Manny returned there and I'm sure that at least some of them did their best at trying to reach the top. Most likely they didn't get as far as Hector, but surely there had to be other important people too.

Meh, I'm not getting anywhere with this post. I'm just repeating the same thing over and over again and can't turn my actual vision into words.
Yeah, People who we didn't get to know since it didn't concern Manny. I'm sure the LSA took care of them .

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Originally Posted by Yohein
By the way, you think Hector should have been a reaper but he didn't want to work and stayed in the city? or maybe he wasn't that bad in life but got corrupted?
He was trying to sell packages to Celso and his wife, and I doubt it they were his only 'customers', but this has more to do with the fake tickets.

I remember that while talking to Salvador at the LSA headquarters he mentions that Hector used to be a thief.
I'm not sure if this was when he was alive or as soon as he got to the LotD.
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Old 12-24-2005, 06:02 PM   #109
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Sorry, I didn't explain very well because I was in hurry. I wanted to say if you think Hector was bad in life too. If he was as he's in the LOTD, he surely should have been punished to work his time on the DOD, but maybe he just quit the job and stayed "prisioner" in the city.
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Old 12-25-2005, 01:45 AM   #110
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Damn, those are a lot of posts.
My thoughts exactly.

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If you check Manny's computer at the beginning, he says that Celso did not deserve the stick.
And what you are saying is..?
I don't remember that line, but sounds like Manny's usual sarcasm.

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A short time ago, someone rasied a question about what happened when somebody was sprouted; then another person read the answer Schafer gave in an interview or in the strategy guide, and it was quite disappointing.
I took it that Schafer didn't know the answer either and just produced his idea on the spot, as a possibility and not a fact.

------------------------------------------------
I didn't see Rubacava's and El Marrow's regress as something symbolical. I didn't think much of that at all, seeing that this technique (a traveller returnes to the lands he had left behind only to find nothing but decay and drastic changes for the worse) is widely used in literature, never ceasing to create a great impression, though.
Well, it could also be viewed as an example of what happens to a city when mafia and extreme corruption grab the control.

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And Rubacava, a city that held the elite of the Land of the Dead, a place where practically everyone would have liked to live in, was now an almost deserted and neglected place.
It became neglected as well? I don't remember much of 4th-year's Rubacava. I wonder, why did it become like that, then. Perhaps the town was really too dependant on the megalopolis of El/Nuevo Marrow, both in terms of new souls and subsidizing.
By the way, I wouldn't like to live in Rubacava, even in it's best days. I'd rather live in Puerto Zapato, the one I imagine .

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How did Hector get so much power? Did I miss something, or he was virtually the owner of the city?
He was, Olivia agreed with Manny on this, and Salvador seemed to consider Hector LSA's prime enemy.
I think VampireNaomi is right, there were other big people in Nuevo Marrow - all under Hector's control or supervision. LeMans was like a Godfather there, I suppose; even the patterns on his hands are crosses .
I guess taking over the DOD was a significant point in Hectors career, providing a good start for his overall rise.


Yohein
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By the way, you think Hector should have been a reaper but he didn't want to work and stayed in the city? or maybe he wasn't that bad in life but got corrupted?
As I still don't believe that becoming a Reaper is the only way to make some amends, for a dead sinner, in my opinion, it's unlikely that Hector had ever been working as one. Not his style, I'd think. He'd rather start building his empire the moment he learned his fate, however that is usually done (I've no idea).
It seems that he had already spent quite a long time in the LotD before the beginning of the game. Salvador said once that 'for some people, this world is all there is', hinting, as I understand it, that their working-off obligations were far too difficult to discharge (and would all the same take a long time in the LotD). I gather Hector was most probably just the samy 'bad boy' while alive as when dead. Such people never change.

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Don't forget the "Was Salvador a reaper?" thread I opened some time ago, more confusing parts on the game
I remember reading that thread and thinking, 'how can they even suggest that Salvador lied?' Suppose I'll have to reread that discussion some day.
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Old 12-25-2005, 08:28 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Charie
And what you are saying is..?
I don't remember that line, but sounds like Manny's usual sarcasm.
Nothing, I was just adding to the post.

I am certain it was not sarcasm; but it might vary with the language.

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It became neglected as well? I don't remember much of 4th-year's Rubacava. I wonder, why did it become like that, then. Perhaps the town was really too dependant on the megalopolis of El/Nuevo Marrow, both in terms of new souls and subsidizing.
By the way, I wouldn't like to live in Rubacava, even in it's best days. I'd rather live in Puerto Zapato, the one I imagine .
Most of the things in the city are out of order, like the bridge and the elevator (which were more a resource to prevent the player from wasting time).
The importance of Nuevo Marrow is that the Department of Death is completely operated by crooks, if operated at all.

The fact that I couldn't get to see Zapato got me a bit mad while I was playing it :P; seemed like a nice place.

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As I still don't believe that becoming a Reaper is the only way to make some amends, for a dead sinner, in my opinion, it's unlikely that Hector had ever been working as one.
Now THAT is something I never thought about.
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Old 12-25-2005, 09:07 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Charie
As I still don't believe that becoming a Reaper is the only way to make some amends, for a dead sinner, in my opinion,
I agree. El MArrow, for example, is a big city and it would require all the same public services that any city in the LotL would need (city administration, building roads, collecting garbage etc). So there is probably a lot of jobs available for dead sinners to redeem themselves with. A reaper is probably the most interesting one.
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Old 12-25-2005, 11:09 PM   #113
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You play not in English?

Souls still would have to arrive in the LotD somehow, I wonder what was their fate with Hector as an owner of the town.
I'm sure I would be more than a little perplexed and frightened if I arrived in such an Underworld.

Yes, I also deadly wanted to see Puerto Zapato. For some reason I imagine that town as a calm, refreshing and overall nice place. And far from Hector's direct inflience. And cooler, and closer to the End of the Road.

Shuz
Uhuh, I agree. I wonder if novice Reapers take unwarranted detours in the LotL to look around, the way it appears to the dead. Though scary, the LotL is most fascinating.
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Old 12-26-2005, 09:28 PM   #114
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You play not in English?
Indeed. I have the Spanish version. The acting is great, but some of the phrases are translated literally, on ways in which they make no sense in my language.

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Souls still would have to arrive in the LotD somehow, I wonder what was their fate with Hector as an owner of the town.
That is the importance of it; with no real agents in command, more than one person wouldn't have got to the Land of the Dead, and would be doomed to eternal suffering.

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I'm sure I would be more than a little perplexed and frightened if I arrived in such an Underworld.
I would be more than a little perplex and frightened if I arrived in any sort of Underworld or afterlife.
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Old 12-26-2005, 10:55 PM   #115
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That is the importance of it; with no real agents in command, more than one person wouldn't have got to the Land of the Dead, and would be doomed to eternal suffering.
So you think they didn't fetch new souls at all, in Nuevo Marrow? This has never crossed my mind before, it's unthinkable. I imagined they still brought newlydeads, but lied to them all without exception. Your idea... What do you think happens to a soul whom no one comes to fetch?

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I would be more than a little perplex and frightened if I arrived in any sort of Underworld or afterlife.
Wouldn't you be relieved? After all, fear of death comes from the very likely possibility that there's nothing at all after you die. Never, nothing; like when you still weren't born. I, for instance, don't want to die... forever.
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Old 12-26-2005, 11:21 PM   #116
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Your idea... What do you think happens to a soul whom no one comes to fetch?
"Bound only by the paper-thin wrappings of mortality, a soul here lies, struggling to be free; and so it shall, thanks to a bowl of bad gazpacho, and a man named Calavera."

Take the 'man named Calavera' out of the formula, and what you get is a trapped soul. He wouldn't be alive, yet still wouldn't be dead.
I do not know what this actually implies, but I cannot imagine anything worse.

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Wouldn't you be relieved? After all, fear of death comes from the very likely possibility that there's nothing at all after you die. Never, nothing; like when you still weren't born. I, for instance, don't want to die... forever.
Fear of death comes from people not knowing what actually awaits.

There are many beliefs about 'what happens next', and ironically there is no way to find it out until it is already too late. Many people are religious, and most religious doctrines have an equivalent to Heaven and Hell; and the latter is what most are scared of.


Would I be relieved? I do not know. Life is said to be unfair, and I wouldn't like to have to stand it all again. But I have barely questioned the subject; the mystery is what I both, like & hate, about it.

----------

Anyway, it's late here. I'll go on to-morrow.
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Old 12-27-2005, 12:20 AM   #117
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I certainly remember the line about bad gazpacho.
I just thought - can souls get out of those wrappings on their own or not? I mean, do they remain lying in their place of death, or wander through the LotL, representing what we call ghosts, maybe? I suppose even with a proper supervision, sometimes there still occur mistakes in the DOD.

I don't believe in afterlife. Maybe I'd like to, but this is subconscious - I can't. I can't be sure, of course; I'm the type of person who won't entirely believe in anything until saw it with my own eyes. Also, I'm the type of person who worries in advance. So, even though it might be seen as a too young an age for such thoughts, I desperately don't want to die. Okay, life may be unfair (in my opinion, life is fair, always - perhaps some people are not), and it certainly isn't easy and constantly pleasant, but - it's beautiful and amazing. Sometimes you just need to look at the sky to feel it, and then you crave for being eternal, much like the sky itself.

----------
Anyway, it's early here. I guess I'm not really awake yet.
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Old 12-27-2005, 10:28 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Charie
I don't believe in afterlife. Maybe I'd like to, but this is subconscious - I can't.
Same with me; it is the kind of thought I wouldn't mind believing in, but due to my nature, I am practically certain that it is impossible.
But I like to be neutral about anything that I cannot prove.

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Okay, life may be unfair (in my opinion, life is fair, always - perhaps some people are not)
Incredibly, those people are ruling the world.

I do not know if 'Life' can be considered to be unfair, since it is not an entity. You can blame it on fate, or on anything else; but Humanity is the root of most, if not all, of the problems.

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So, even though it might be seen as a too young an age for such thoughts, I desperately don't want to die. Okay, life may be unfair (in my opinion, life is fair, always - perhaps some people are not), and it certainly isn't easy and constantly pleasant, but - it's beautiful and amazing. Sometimes you just need to look at the sky to feel it, and then you crave for being eternal, much like the sky itself.
There's no age limit to be worried about it; same as there are young people who think about the subject, there are old ones who simply don't.
But you have a good reason to be concerned, you enjoy life, for everything it has to give, whether it is good or bad.
Life is a beautiful, yet strange, experience; unfortunately, though I recognize its attributes, I just like to see it as a phase.

While Death doesn’t preoccupy me that much, suffering definitely does.
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Old 12-27-2005, 12:50 PM   #119
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You know, I've never talked about afterlife with anybody who believes in it. Perhaps I'd like to listen to their thoughts on the subject. Though, I suspect, it would be hard to find actual believers here, around me; besides, that would be a great risk of running into some fanatics, whom I'm not particularly fond of.

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Incredibly, [unfair] people are ruling the world.
Well, they are ruling other people; 'the world' is too big a word, fortunately.

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I do not know if 'Life' can be considered to be unfair, since it is not an entity. You can blame it on fate, or on anything else; but Humanity is the root of most, if not all, of the problems.
Humanity is a complaining party, as well. Humans think too much, that's their problem.

As for Life, or Fate, or whatever, you may call it as you like - why would I blame it? In my view, it's always right, especially when you think about it a bit, impartially. There's a reason for everything, and all that... Or, more likely, it all comes down to a scapegoat's question in the end. Whether you blame 'Life', or 'Fate', or find somebody much much closer and more substential to curse for your insignificant petty misfortunes.
I'm not talking about you, of course.

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There's no age limit to be worried about [death]
Oh, but there's a limit of ridiculousness in this. Maybe people shouldn't worry about that at all, it's not like their lifes' duration is in their powers to control. Didn't you just laugh at Andrei Bolkonsky's speculations about how life is 'ended at thirty-one'? At seventeen, it's even more absurd.
I remember myself crying rivers at a tender age of four, when I played with my toys all the time, that there would come a time when I wouldn't need toys any more. To my mind, it's just that - an excessive distress, nothing more.

But, well, it only means I don't live really happily, which is the main porpose of the life, in my opinion, - if I worry about 'serious matters'. A happy person (or busy, for that matter) wouldn't have the time for it.

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But you have a good reason to be concerned, you enjoy life, for everything it has to give, whether it is good or bad.
Life is a beautiful, yet strange, experience; unfortunately, though I recognize its attributes, I just like to see it as a phase.
What do you mean - you mean you don't enjoy your life? And a phase of what, exactly, it is, in your opinion? You know, your 'a phase' remark sounds like Nicolas Flamel's from Harry Potter 'death is just another adventure'. What's in adventure if you can't savour it, if you'd ask me. Cheer up, senor Flores, you sound more and more like Membrillo to my ears right now.

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While Death doesn’t preoccupy me that much, suffering definitely does.
(Seems I can't stop the demands for clarifying). Whose suffering, presciesly?


--------------------
And I certainly enjoy my life. As some clever man said once, you could *not* have even that.
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Old 12-27-2005, 03:08 PM   #120
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I didn't think the DOD was closed in year 4. As you said, it must be opened so new souls can arrive. I think it was just closed because it was night, or maybe just that level was empty so the lights were off.

By the way, some phrases in the Spanish translation are bad because they are bad written in the original version. For example, when Manny talks with Maximino and he says he saw Olivia kissing Nick, Maximino says that's normal there and Manny says "I mean KISSING, Max"... but if you see, the sentence is written "I mean KISSING Max"... so, of course, in the Spanish version looks like Olivia was kissing Max
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