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Old 09-07-2004, 10:01 AM   #1
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Was Qui-Gon just a pawn in Palpatine's scheme?

count dooku (as darth tyrannus) is sidious/palpatine's apprentice ... we see that near the end of AotC. it's determined in the same movie that count dooku was once qui-gon's master. we also are aware that qui-gon is the one who 'found' little anakin skywalker, recognized his strength in the force, and more or less had him brought into the jedi order. and as will be shown in RotS, anakin will become palpatine's personal bodyguard, further progressing his journey to the darkside.

i find these relationships and sequential events a little too coincidental. do you think, that at some point along the line, palpatine was able to forsee the future, plant some kind of seed in dooku's head, who was then able to influence qui-gon? had qui-gon actually been contacted by palpatine, and killed (by maul) in order to keep things a secret? or does this 'coincidence' just make for a really kick-a$$ storyline?


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Old 09-07-2004, 12:07 PM   #2
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cool theory!!! never thought about that!


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Old 09-07-2004, 12:32 PM   #3
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Just about everyone was Palpy's pawn really.

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Old 09-07-2004, 12:38 PM   #4
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very true, but i'm just curious as to whether or not his manipulation was able to influence people to this extent, and if his plan was set in action while anakin was still a child ...


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Old 09-07-2004, 09:20 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by adillon
very true, but i'm just curious as to whether or not his manipulation was able to influence people to this extent, and if his plan was set in action while anakin was still a child ...
Probably even before Aniken was born... supposedly Palapatine's greatest power was his 'vision' or his ability to forsee the events to come and plan accordingly, this was hinted at in the OT, and reinforced by his actions in the PT.

So basically, you are correct Adillon, with Sideous/Palapatine and his power of foresight, there are no coincidences... "Everything is proceeding as I have forseen."

Just my 2 cents!


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Old 09-08-2004, 04:36 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by RedHawke
supposedly Palapatine's greatest power was his 'vision' or his ability to forsee the events to come and plan accordingly
hmmm, so then by that rationale how could palpatine plan to do certain things if those series of events were already unravelling? if he was able to forsee a certain event, something that was destined to happen, how could anything he do possible change its outcome?


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Old 09-08-2004, 04:44 AM   #7
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Because he was destined to foresee the outcomes to complete the destiny? XD

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Old 09-08-2004, 05:27 AM   #8
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and foresee his own death by darth vaders betrayal :\

Wasnt dooku qui gons apprentice? Dang i mixed them up.

I don't think Palpatine foresaw that one... its just destiny/fate whatever


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Old 09-08-2004, 05:40 AM   #9
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i think palpatine foresaw some things, but he obviously didn't foresee vader throwing him down the shaft. and i don't think he had any influence over qui-gon. qui-gon always acted on what he believed in, that’s why he was thought of as a 'rogue' by some in the jedi order. it maybe true that dooku's frustration of the jedi following a corrupt republic may have rubbed off on qui-gon. but it wasn't until qui-gon's death dooku left the order and was then seduced by palpatine.
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Old 09-08-2004, 06:46 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Siv
but it wasn't until qui-gon's death dooku left the order and was then seduced by palpatine.
is this true? i tend to think that maybe palpatine somehow got to dooku earlier and started to change him.


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Old 09-08-2004, 06:57 AM   #11
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well the official story is he left the order and then disappeared for a few years. and it was during those years he was seduced by the darkside.

it's all here...

http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/countdooku/

however it may be possible that he was up to no good before he left. maybe we'll find out more in ep III.
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Old 09-08-2004, 12:02 PM   #12
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anakin was set up by the force to be the one to bring the force back into balance. it just ended up doing it in a real messed up way.
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Old 09-08-2004, 03:54 PM   #13
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in other words everyone was really a pawn of The Force

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Old 09-08-2004, 04:01 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Cheat
anakin was set up by the force to be the one to bring the force back into balance. it just ended up doing it in a real messed up way.
ahh yes, the whole 'bring balance to the force' thing. in my mind, balance can mean being equal on both sides, correct? and there were a helluva lot of jedi in those days, right? well, don't you think that bringing 'balance to the force' is exactly what anakin will be doing with the jedi purge? after all that is done, there will be 2 sith (as always) - sidious and vader ... and at the same time there will be 2 jedi to survive - obi-wan and yoda. sounds like the force is in balance to me, and anakin fulfilled his destiny.


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Old 09-09-2004, 12:14 AM   #15
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that's what i thought at first...

anakin kills all jedi but two (Yoda & Obi-wan, then Yoda and Luke) which equals the two sith.

but then i read somewhere that the darkside unbalances the force.
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Old 09-09-2004, 12:37 AM   #16
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Read or heard the same thing. I could be wrong (& probably am), but doesn't Lucas say something along those lines on the Ep1/2 dvd comentary tracks?

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Old 09-09-2004, 01:05 AM   #17
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possibility, I knew I got it from somewhere reliable
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Old 09-09-2004, 04:30 AM   #18
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george lucas is a reliable source?! BAH!!



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Old 09-10-2004, 12:05 PM   #19
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Balance in the force is when everything is at peace, and to accomplsih that, the dark siders msut be destroyed since you cannot have peace with them around. However, to keep balance, you can never have to many jedi, since they keep peace instead of destroying it.

Just my little theory...
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Old 09-10-2004, 06:32 PM   #20
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Nothing is ever at peace in reality though. You're saying to achieve balance the entire galaxy much be at peace which is impossible.

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Old 09-13-2004, 04:52 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Doomgiver
Balance in the force is when everything is at peace, and to accomplsih that, the dark siders msut be destroyed since you cannot have peace with them around. However, to keep balance, you can never have to many jedi, since they keep peace instead of destroying it.
for things to be in balance, both sides must have equal 'weight' ... i still believe that anakin fulfilled the prophecy as the chosen one who will bring balance to the force during the jedi purge, since he killed most of the jedi at that time single-handedly.


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Old 09-14-2004, 03:53 AM   #22
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balance

balance could not be obtained because even though there was equal amount of jedi and sith the sith had all the power in the galaxy.There needed to be equal power share between the two, which is what happened after palpy died.
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Old 09-15-2004, 06:17 AM   #23
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Re: balance

Quote:
Originally posted by tomwaz
There needed to be equal power share between the two, which is what happened after palpy died.
after palpatine died there were supposedly no sith left, therefore giving ALL the power to the jedi, thrusting things back out of balance.


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Old 09-22-2004, 02:30 AM   #24
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Good thinking. I agree and I even suspect that Qui-Gon knew of the conspiracy and that he sacrificed himself. It would seem he had no option but to obey his master, or Palpatine.Still, the good side within him told him to cloak his intentions from his padawan. Just a thought.


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Old 09-23-2004, 06:57 AM   #25
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Heh, I dunno bout Qui being a pawn of Sidious....But what i think i know is that there woudl be no such thing was the empire if it had'nt been for good ol' Jar Jar. Lol in AotC we see Palpatine and his alien friend say "But what senator would be brave enough to suggest such a (bla bla)" THen the alien guy says "if only senator Amidala were here." Lol and stupid ol' Jar Jar falls for it and asks the senate to vote...Lol im sure the smarter Padme would have seen through that quickly.

p.s. I like Jar Jar

p.s.s Go empire!


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Old 09-23-2004, 09:29 AM   #26
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palpatine played everyone like a cheap fiddle ...


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Old 10-10-2004, 06:22 PM   #27
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how old is this dude anyways. He looked pretty rusty in Episode 1.
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Old 10-12-2004, 02:13 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by adillon
hmmm, so then by that rationale how could palpatine plan to do certain things if those series of events were already unravelling? if he was able to forsee a certain event, something that was destined to happen, how could anything he do possible change its outcome?

always in motion, the future is.


i like the theory, but I suspect that he did not influence dooku that early. however, I suspect that he had already teamed up with Dooku before Maul was dead, and that is why he sent Maul to be killed by Obi/Qui.
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Old 10-12-2004, 09:17 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shok_Tinoktin
always in motion, the future is.


i like the theory, but I suspect that he did not influence dooku that early. however, I suspect that he had already teamed up with Dooku before Maul was dead, and that is why he sent Maul to be killed by Obi/Qui.
i will agree with the first and last statements, but i believe palpatine would have influenced dooku from very early on
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Old 10-12-2004, 09:32 PM   #30
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The problem with thinking that Dooku had the idea to influence Qui-Gon into finding Anakin and bringing him to be trained, because of Palpatine is fundamentally flawed. If Palpatine had forseen all this, then why bother to set it all up like this? He could have just picked up Anakin when he was just a wee tot, and raise him as a Sith in private. He would grow up to know nothing else, and would not have turned on the Emperor in the end.
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Old 10-13-2004, 05:00 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shok_Tinoktin
If Palpatine had forseen all this, then why bother to set it all up like this? He could have just picked up Anakin when he was just a wee tot, and raise him as a Sith in private. He would grow up to know nothing else, and would not have turned on the Emperor in the end.
but then anakin wouldn't have become a padawan, wouldn't have struggled with his master, and wouldn't have grown a highly-influenced hatred for the jedi order. it's his turn to the darkside that fuels the jedi purge ... growing up sith might not have given anakin this extra bit of impetus, with a hatred for the 'good guys' that wasn't experienced first-hand.

also, as we've seen in EP2, palpatine had the ability to play both sides of the war, and dooku was knowledgeable of this as well. he was more than able to influence his apprentice(s) and the jedi (to a degree) in order for his plan to come to fruition.


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Old 10-13-2004, 08:00 AM   #32
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but does sidious know that anakin is the "chosen one"? cause if he knew that anakin would bring balance to the force, why didn't he just kill him? I think that sidious just saw anakin as a powerful ally and nabbed him


...or something like that...
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Old 10-13-2004, 08:10 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by adillon
but then anakin wouldn't have become a padawan, wouldn't have struggled with his master, and wouldn't have grown a highly-influenced hatred for the jedi order. it's his turn to the darkside that fuels the jedi purge ... growing up sith might not have given anakin this extra bit of impetus, with a hatred for the 'good guys' that wasn't experienced first-hand.

also, as we've seen in EP2, palpatine had the ability to play both sides of the war, and dooku was knowledgeable of this as well. he was more than able to influence his apprentice(s) and the jedi (to a degree) in order for his plan to come to fruition.
good point, but the only inherent problem i see is that anakin probably would have purged the jedi of palpatines will, simply because palpatine was his master
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Old 10-13-2004, 10:47 AM   #34
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also, Maul grew up Sith, and he had at least as much hatred of the Jedi as Vader, if not more.
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Old 10-13-2004, 12:25 PM   #35
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why does palpatine send maul to his death? was it a sacrifice to be rid of qui-gon, so that obi-wan would have to train ani alone? maybe qui-gon would have done a better job...
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Old 10-13-2004, 12:38 PM   #36
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maybe he was a loose cannon, and he would have rushed Palp's plans. I suspect he was already working with Dooku and was afraid they could overpower him together (one master one apprentice). Maybe (as the EU suggests) he didn't like aliens (get this stunted slime out of my sight). There could be dozens of reasons.
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Old 10-13-2004, 12:44 PM   #37
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but if he didn't like aliens, then why take on maul as an apprentice in the first place?
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Old 10-13-2004, 01:25 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by rcsquirrel900
maybe qui-gon would have done a better job...
ahh, now we go back to the root of this thread ... was qui-gon merely another pawn in palpatine's game to rule the galaxy? sure he was a loose cannon - he questioned the council's authority on numerous occassions (namely training anakin even though the council felt he was too old).

and i DO agree with you, rcsquirrel900 ... i think either way anakin would have purged the jedi. i feel that anakin became a stronger sith because of the fact that palpy got into his head, and made him see (a twisted version) of what the jedi were doing, allowing him to grow to hate the order. i feel that a personally experienced hatred for something/someone is much more powerful than a hatred because you are told to do so.


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Old 10-13-2004, 01:33 PM   #39
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why would palpatine allow dooku to capture obi, ani, and padme which would risk a slight chance of ani dying, making palpatine much weaker. when he could have done away with dooku(whom he doesn't seem to need anymore) and killed obi-wan while still allowing padme and ani to marry.(makes sense? i doubt it)
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Old 10-13-2004, 02:41 PM   #40
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This is just my guess, nothing I know about the next movie. he needs Dooku as the final test of Anakins turn toward the dark side, by his forcefully replacing Dooku. If Anakin were to die in the arena, then Palpatine did not want him anyway. he also needs obi wan as the one that Anakin rebells against. as for Maul, he took him as an apprentice for the same reason that he worked with Nute Gunray, he was usefull, but to be eventually disposed of. The problem of a personal hatred, is that it is nearly impossible to completely remove the positive emotions involved, and this is what eventually led to his demise. The emperor new that Luke and Vader could not both live, or they would be a threat to him (because they have a closer bond to each other than him), so I am sure that Palpatine new the danger of such an attachment, and that knowing only hatred of Jedi was powerful enough (more powerful IMO) to fulfill his use.

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