lfnetwork.com mark read register faq members calendar

Thread: The Official Merged JK4 Speculation Thread!
Thread Tools Display Modes
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Old 04-28-2004, 08:11 AM   #81
Smood
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 310
Quote:
Originally posted by Tinny
hmm bro, the saber fights in ja and jo and even jk are slow compared to the ones in episode 1 and 2 and the clone wars toons. the fights were simply incredible, strategic and fast paced. as for gun combat that 2 was fast paced in the movies and clone wars series; Han solo nailing troopers and rodians here and there on the fly, clone commandos taking out battle droids with just dual pistols. i dunno, seems to me if you want to make it more movie like you'd have to accelerate even a game like jk and mots.
The original trilogy as Cain mentioned represented far more skillful and thoughtful fighting (not just coreographed saber dancing). However EVEN in EP1 and EP2 the duels are slower then that of JA and JO. Moreover the gun fights are tremendously slower and also more tactical (not just simply running with a huge flak cannon, and jump off a ledge while firing at full speed). If you think otherwise you should try to better compare the game reality to the movie reality.

For an idea of the gun fight pace that much better represents the pace of movie gun fights play a mod called "Troopers: Dawn of Destiny" for unreal tournament 2003/4. In this mod you will see what pace and cautious fighting are about.

Weiser_Cain: Agreed.


- DIABLO
[jediknightii.net staff]
Smood is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-28-2004, 11:31 AM   #82
StormHammer
Fallen Jedi
 
StormHammer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Outer spiral arm of the galaxy
Posts: 5,437
10 year veteran! 
Stormy’s Jedi Knight 4 Wishlist

***Warning: Force Long Post***

Character Creation

I really liked the character customisation tool for Jedi Academy, so I would like to see it retained, but expanded. Many people felt at the time that it made a bold step in the right direction, but failed to go quite far enough. One example of this was a restricted number of races…and restricting genders per race. So I would like to see a wider variety of selectable races, and be able to select the gender according to my preference for each race. I personally didn’t have a problem with the range of options for clothing…but I know some people did, so that may be another area that needs some expansion.

Another issue that detracted from playing the different races was a lack of race-specific language or dialogue. A Rodian speaking with a human voice just sounded odd, and unrealistic. Even a Rodian accent and timbre while speaking English would have been better. So I think that, for whichever races are available, there should be an appropriate voice pack to suit each one.

The last issue that I can see here is that people could not select their own name for the character. The reason for this became apparent during the course of Jedi Academy, and personally I didn’t have a problem with it. However, there could be a workaround in a similar way that was used in Deus Ex, where your character had a ‘code name’ in the game (J. C. Denton) , and you chose the ‘real name’ for the character – which was then used in some written materials later on in the game. It helped to bind you more closely into the game world.

Selectable Missions

Another feature that was introduced in Jedi Academy was the ‘selectable mission’ format, where you could choose the order in which you completed missions, and even had the option of missing some of them. I think this was a good feature of the game, but again, it didn’t go nearly far enough. Many of the missions themselves seemed quite short, and consisted of single linear levels with simple objectives. Some were obviously better than others, but on the whole, many of them could have been far better developed. Some seemed rather pointless.

I would like to see selectable missions retained, but I would prefer to see much larger levels – or a few levels per mission. This would allow for developing a proper scenario or story for each one, and allow for better characterisation of potential foes. Each mission would, of course, have to tie in to the main arc of the plot, and allow the player to uncover a range of clues and evidence that are relevant to the main story.

As an example…in Jedi Academy the 2 Tatooine missions, and the Swoop bike mission, could all have been combined into a single scenario with three levels. You could have started with the Tusken Raider level – in search of the droid. Then moved onto the swoop bike level…to get the information retrieved from the droid to the space port. Then finished with the space port, which has been locked down by the enemy, who are trying to prevent you from leaving with the data. With more fleshing out of the sub-plot, introducing a strong character for an enemy to confront, making the levels less linear, and adding more NPCs (particularly in the space port, but also in the houses out in the desert), it could have made a single exciting mission split across 3 levels.

So perhaps there should be fewer, but longer, selectable missions, with well-developed plots and significant NPC characters, while retaining the ‘gameplay variety’ that was available in JA.

Story

Repeat after me….”It does not have to be about saving the universe”.

This is a trap that many games fall into. You either have to save the world, or save the galaxy. Why? Can’t you simply be involved in saving a single town, for a change? Or a single person? Just because it is a Star Wars game, and you will inevitably have to confront someone else with a lightsaber (because it’s a Jedi game), but why does it have to affect the entire galaxy?
If you read books like the Jedi Apprentice series, you gain a small insight into how the old Jedi order worked. They were involved in trying to end disputes on planets, for one thing. So why not introduce these kinds of scenarios? Perhaps there is a dispute between a couple of planets in a single system – and as a Jedi you are given the task of preventing all-out war between these planets. It could be a purely local dispute…but no less exciting in terms of action and suspense.

The problem with many of these ‘epic scale’ plots is that stronger characterisation takes a back seat. When I think of the original Jedi Knight, in terms of story the whole ‘Valley Of The Jedi’ scenario could simply have been ditched – and the focus could have been on how Kyle Katarn resolved the death of his father, and brought those responsible to justice. Does he seek justice, or revenge?

Does there need to be a Dark Jedi cult to provide lots of lightsaber battles? In my view, no. Look at Jedi Academy, where you meet the same enemy twice. The first time they got away, and turned up later. Well then…why not have a similar situation in a new game? Fewer opponents, but you get to meet them several times to do battle, and each time, you are both stronger in the Force, and more adept with a lightsaber. Considering this is basically what happened in the original Star Wars trilogy…a father and son do battle across 3 films…then surely it is not beyond the scope of a single game? Does anyone think the Star Wars films were completely boring? Yes, the backdrop was a galactic conflict – but the key story was really the resolution of the conflict between father and son.

I would prefer a story with stronger characterisation, and interesting encounters, rather than trying to save all life from extinction or slavery under the ‘ultimate power in the Force’. Call it a more ‘mature’ approach to story development.


Cut Scenes

Do we really need them? In my view, yes and no. Personally, where there is a situation or event involving the character I am playing, I would prefer to remain in full control while events transpire around me. Basically, the ‘Half-Life’ style of showing something happening, while leaving you in control.

Where I do think cut scenes are needed is when the story switches to show the ‘villains’, or to show ships and vehicles landing or moving through space. These are staples of the Star Wars experience. In Jedi Knight, you were kept quite well informed of what the ‘villains’ were up to during the cut scenes. In Jedi Outcast, there were also some good scenes showing the key ‘villains’ interacting. In Jedi Academy, however, there were fewer scenes depicting the villains, and I think this served to weaken them. You can only really develop a villainous character by giving them screen time, and showing what they have done that makes them ‘bad’ or ‘evil’. This is one of my major criticisms of the character Darth Maul in The Phantom Menace. You never learn enough about his background, his motives, his terrible deeds, in the movie, and so you’re just left with a ‘cool lightsaber fighter’ at the end of the film. By comparison, the first time you meet Darth Vader, he’s choking rebel captains, goes on to choke some of his own troops, and you learn he’s basically wiped out the Jedi order. You immediately have a sense of how powerful and evil he is through his actions, and his past.

Cheesy at it may be, you also got this to a certain extent with Jerec in Jedi Knight. You see him torture and cut down a Jedi…you learn he’s the murderer of Kyle’s father. You know how bad he really is through his current actions and his past.

So in those terms, give more screen time to the villains, and give them stronger characters, with an appropriate background, and give them more to do during current events rather than simply exchange dialogue.

Stealth

In my view, being a Jedi is not simply about using weapons and the Force to attack enemies, or defend yourself. As I’ve said before, a Jedi is not a tank, and when faced with significant numbers of foes, should try a more covert approach. Examples of this behaviour are plain to see throughout the movies:

The Phantom Menace - Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan sought to avoid confrontation by sneaking aboard a ship, used an out of the way route (through the planet core) to reach the city, then sneaking around the city in order to jump the guards and free the Princess.

Attack Of The Clones – Obi-Wan follows the trail to Kamino, then follows Jango Fett’s ship. He sneaks around Geonosis trying to uncover the truth, all the while trying to avoid confrontation.

Star Wars: A New Hope – Again, Obi-Wan chooses covert methods, tricking Stormtroopers, then hiring a ship with ‘no questions asked’ to ‘avoid Imperial entanglements’. On the Death Star, he sneaks around to disable the Tractor Beam.

These are all stealthy actions on the part of the Jedi, so it would be good to see some stronger stealth elements introduced into the next game in the series. Not ‘forced stealth’ levels like the one in Jedi Outcast – that plainly did not work, and was no fun. I mean having a choice to use stealth, like you have in such games as Deus Ex and No One Lives Forever. In both of those games, you largely have the choice to sneak around…or go for a frontal attack and hope for the best. This is how a Jedi should operate. Use covert methods when you deem it necessary, but still have the ability to take on foes directly.

In order for a proper stealth implementation to work, the levels have to be designed in a certain way, incorporating areas where you can hide with relative safety. The AI of enemies has to allow for sneaky behaviour as well. Instead of enemies always knowing where you are (as they did when triggered in all the previous games)…they should have to ‘discover’ you. And if they lose track of you, they should have to ‘hunt’ for you. An alarm going off should certainly not end a mission or level. It should put enemies on high alert – but if they cannot find you, the alarm should eventually turn off, and AI’s should go back to their duties. Examples of this kind of behaviour can be seen in No One Lives Forever 2, Deus Ex: Invisible War and the Thief series of games. If you make a sound, they hear it and start to look for you. Then they calm down and go back to what they were doing before, if they can’t discover you.

The Force power Mind Trick could be far better utilised in a stealth context – and even have a blanket effect like ‘Persuasion’ from Jedi Knight, where you are basically invisible to all enemies for a short period of time.

Level Design

This is one of the key areas requiring improvement, IMHO. The levels in both Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy were largely quite linear, and required you to follow a particular path. I would prefer a much different approach to level design – and catering for stealth certainly requires certain other factors to be taken into consideration. If you look at a game like Deus Ex: Invisible War, it gives you a range of options in how to move around a level, and how to tackle certain obstacles. You are not constrained to a single path, or a single solution to problems you face. With more open-ended level design with multiple pathways, you choose how you wish to proceed. Sneak down this alley? Or go over the roof? Or go via the sewer? Try to bypass that security panel? Or stack some crates to jump over a fence? Shoot the guard? Or stun him and hide his unconscious body?

You cannot do any of these things unless the level is designed in such a way that you can do them. You need places to hide (either yourself or your victims). You need those alternative routes to be built in, or you can’t use them.

How many times have you been confronted by a low wall that you cannot jump over? Or a door that won’t open? It becomes infuriating after a while that the designers are forcing you down a singular path.

If I see a door in a wall…I want to be able to open it and explore the room on the other side. If I see a window…I want to be able to break it to see what lies beyond. If I see a grate over an air vent in a wall that is similar to one I broke two minutes ago…then I want to be able to break this one as well. In other words, levels should not force you into a situation where you can do A, but not B, which appears exactly the same, but because the designer doesn’t want you to go that way, you are restricted.

I know that it is often a problem trying to keep a player within certain boundaries – the physical extents of a level – but there can be better ways to ‘fake it’.

The other thing that seems to be missing from many games these days is swimmable water. While it might not be essential, it is nice to have, and can add a great deal of variety to the gameplay. Far Cry has it, and you can swim under water to remain undetected in order to get closer to an opponent, or bypass them completely. Jedi Knight and Mysteries Of The Sith both had some well designed underwater sections. You could even find an alternative route into Baron’s Hed via an underwater tunnel. By including water in a level, you can make it more interesting – and introduce a wider variety of creatures to confront the player. Who can forget the Dianogas in Dark Forces and MotS? The Drugons in Jedi Knight could be dangerous too, if you weren’t careful. If you play a game called Rune, you’re faced by a very large, fast and dangerous man-eating fish that you have to try and avoid. Even small fish nibbling at you (like Unreal and Mace Griffin) can help to bring an environment to life.

As for outdoor terrain, well, we’ve all seen the new Unreals, and the Half-Life 2’s. Far Cry has some excellent outdoor levels, with long viewing distances – and you can listen in on AI’s from afar, snipe them from a virtual mile away, so they don’t know what hit them. You can watch them running around trying to find you. Then you can creep through the dense foliage to within striking distance, using ridges and embankments to hide your progress. Outdoor terrain needs to become more realistic and interesting for the Jedi Knight series. It was good to see greater variety in Jedi Academy, but it needs to go yet further.

Environmental interaction

This is partly related to level design, but mostly encompasses objects in the game world. I say partly related to level design, because there will always be certain features of a level that would appear to be interactive, but usually are not. Things like computer consoles. Data screens etc., can certainly add colour to a level…but I always want to walk up to a console and start accessing information. You could do this in Deus Ex…if you saw a terminal, you could usually access it, and either read someone’s private emails, or hack into the security network to take the cameras offline. I think it’s about time we had something similar in a Jedi Knight game. So if I walk past a data terminal, give me an option to go back and make use of it.

As for objects…I’m sick of immovable and impregnable crates and barrels. They have become almost a standard fixture of every FPS game, and it’s becoming monotonous. Of course you will find crates or containers in certain logical places…but not littered all over the environment. You can guarantee to find a stack of crates in a corner that allows you to access that air vent…because that’s the way the designer wants you to go. Or there’s a lot of crates you can use as cover…when faced with a large number of hostiles. I remember in the days of Unreal and Half-Life when you shot or hacked at a crate…it disintegrated, and spilled out it’s contents. Yet we seem to have gone back to crates that are glued to the floor and made of concrete, because they cannot be moved or opened. Only with the advent of physics engines are we now seeing more ‘moveable’ crates and barrels – but largely because it ‘looks cool’. I have nothing against physics…as long as it serves some kind of purpose. Whatever you push around…you should still be able to break.

There needs to be a greater level of interaction with the environment. All containers should have a way of being opened. I mean, if you have a rocket launcher in your arsenal…you should be able to open any container. Or any door or window, for that matter.

And here we come to the crunch. A Jedi’s weapon is a lightsaber. And a lightsaber can cut through almost anything. Therefore it is high time that environmental interaction reflected the lightsaber’s cutting power. You should be able to use a lightsaber to open most doors, all windows, all containers, and even slice through parts of the scenery. I’m not saying that all walls and all parts of a level should be vulnerable – but you should certainly be able to cut a hole in a thin wall, or a floor or ceiling. Something similar to the Geomod tech used in Red Faction is really needed for a Jedi Knight game. In order that the ability to cut pathways through a level cannot be abused…perhaps the lightsaber should have a recharge period after every time it is used for such purposes. That then introduces a level of real risk – because you could be left vulnerable to attack while your lightsaber is recharging. If it had to recharge for five minutes after using it to cut a hole in a wall…then you would have to avoid contact or trick your way past enemies for that period of time, which brings in the ‘stealth’ element once more.

NPCs

Again, to reiterate what I (and many others) have said before, the Star Wars universe is always portrayed as a bustling hive of activity, with many aliens and humans going about their lives and business. Yet in most of the games, this has hardly been captured very well. It’s time for this to be addressed in a more realistic way. Other games manage to incorporate NPCs on streets (NOLF2, Mace Griffin: Bounty Hunter, Soldier Of Fortune, etc.), so why is it so difficult to incorporate this much-needed factor in a Jedi Knight game? In the original Jedi Knight, you felt that you were more actively involved in the role of a Jedi by protecting civilians - first on Nar Shadaa (a Gran held a woman hostage in a control room), then in Baron’s Hed, where thugs were attacking people on the streets. Mysteries Of The Sith, the expansion to Jedi Knight, also included civilians, and tried to expand on the idea of people living in apartments.

I’m sure many people have by now watched trailers for Half-Life 2. There are civilians in that game too. They react realistically to the appearance of enemies – running and screaming. Yet it goes further – due to the animation of their bodies and facial expressions, they appear more ‘alive’. They become more believable through their actions and expressions. Let’s be frank here…a Jedi Knight game needs to incorporate this level of realism in order to make you believe in the characters. The original Jedi Knight game featured a ‘moral code’, where your path to the force was dictated by your actions regarding the civilian population. Kill the innocent, and you become evil and twisted. Yet if the characters don’t seem real…it’s harder to believe in them as ‘people’ rather than sprites. Give me a character who goes down on his knees and begs for his life when you threaten him with a lightsaber – and then you have harder moral choices to make, and so your path to the Dark Side would be all the more believable.

In my view, interaction with believable characters is part of what makes a story. It does not have to go into the realm of ‘role-playing’ where you have question/answer conversations with NPCs. However, if everyone you bump into makes a remark, or reacts to you in certain ways dependent on your reputation, it sets you more firmly in the game world. You become a more integral ‘part’ of the world, and the world reacts to your presence in meaningful ways.

When I walk into a cantina, I want to see the Jizz band playing on a stage. I want to see patrons at the bar, laughing and joking, talking and arguing. We’ve all seen the Mos Eisley cantina sequence in the film…that is how a cantina should be. Full of life, movement, bustle. And aliens. Not just humans, or a few cloned aliens who will eventually try to kill you. But all different types of aliens, some neutral who will duck and run for cover when the shooting starts, others hostile who will be doing the shooting. And what if one of the hostiles makes a sudden grab for a hostage, and uses them as a shield as they back out through the rear entrance? And what if that is not a ‘scripted’ event, but an actual choice of the AI in that situation? How interesting could the gameplay become then? You would have to deal with the unexpected – the unscripted.

Is it impossible to entertain this kind of idea? No. It is entirely possible with current advances in AI. You simply put an identifier on the objects in the game world – including other NPCs – which tells the AI how it can interact with things in it’s own environment. Things like: I can talk to this person. I can sit in this chair. I can pick up this tankard. I can grab that girl to use as a hostage. I can hide behind this table for cover. Or I can simply go about my business.

If characters can react in unpredictable ways to the same stimuli, then this breathes life into the game world, and makes it more challenging because you cannot take anything for granted. You can no longer assume X will happen in relation to Y. This, of course, improves the inherent replay value of a single player campaign.

Weapons

When you look at a game like Star Wars Battlefront, you can immediately see that they’ve got the blaster effects ‘right’ in the context of the Star Wars universe. The blaster bolts travel quickly, and appear as they should. Both Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy unfortunately suffered from the ‘slow blaster bolt’ effect – where enemies could basically dodge your blaster fire just by walking out of the way. I would hope this is something that would be addressed in the next game. I want to see those red blaster bolts leaping across vast spaces to cut down opponents. And yes, I want to see them sizzling towards me rapidly just before my lightsaber blocks them.

I’m not really a fan of the more traditional ‘projectile’ type weapons that we encountered in Jedi Outcast and Academy. I know why they were introduced – because otherwise you would have become invincible by just blocking blaster bolts with your lightsaber. There had to be other weapons to get through your defences and cause damage, both in single player and multiplayer. A way to get around that would have been to reduce the effectiveness of blocking with the lightsaber to begin with. Allow more shots to get through and do damage, so the lightsaber does not make you completely invincible. I’d just prefer to see fewer ‘quake’ like weapons (rocket launchers and flak canons or shotguns), and more heavy blaster type weapons that pack more of a punch, and can get past your lightsaber defences.

Force Powers

I’ve already covered this sort of thing in other threads.

I’d like to see the ‘gravity gun’ effect from Half-Life 2 utilised in a Jedi Knight game as an advanced Force Throw. Rip objects off walls (which again comes down to environmental interaction – it has to be designed for you to be able to use it), and throw them at opponents.

I’d like a maxed Force Push effect that can blast objects over, and smash windows – like an effect seen in the video trailer for Advent Rising.

And I’d like a levitation power that could have a variety of uses, from lifting heavy objects out of the way, to keeping collapsing bridges upright long enough to allow people to cross, to levitating an ally up to your position if they can’t use Force Jump.

Mind Trick should be tweaked, and have the old ‘persuasion’ effect from Jedi Knight, to give you better options for using stealth. It should also be viable to use it on NPCs to trick information out of them, like security door key codes, or the location of someone you are seeking, etc.


At the end of the day, there is just so much potential for a further Jedi Knight game.
StormHammer is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-28-2004, 01:07 PM   #83
Pnut_Man
Existential to the Core
 
Pnut_Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: NJ, USA
Posts: 1,061
Damn, I do wish Stormhammer wielded great influence over LucasArts and the Jedi Knight Series




- Formally hated, praised, and known as Pnut_Man
Pnut_Man is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-28-2004, 01:18 PM   #84
Rumor
caffeine has go power!
 
Rumor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Retired
Posts: 1,154
Quote:
Originally posted by Smood
3 things:

1. You are in the vast minority
2. A more realistic 'fantasy' experience may possibly equate to a greater experience
3. Evolution of games in this fashion is inevitable
Wow

1. You are wrong.
2. Not everyone plays sp exclusively
3. Nothx, won't happen. Computers are getting faster, so they can handle it just fine.
4. stfu already take your propaganda and rhetoric elsewhere.

Rumor is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-28-2004, 02:04 PM   #85
Tyler_Durden
 
Tyler_Durden's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 593
Wow, Stormhammer, i think you hit the nail on the head and imbedded it into the wood with one shot (pun intended).

On another note, what does stfu mean?
Tyler_Durden is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-28-2004, 02:19 PM   #86
StormHammer
Fallen Jedi
 
StormHammer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Outer spiral arm of the galaxy
Posts: 5,437
10 year veteran! 
Quote:
Originally posted by Tyler_Durden
Wow, Stormhammer, i think you hit the nail on the head and imbedded it into the wood with one shot (pun intended).

On another note, what does stfu mean?
STFU = Shut The Fuggle Up

Tis not a nice expression.
StormHammer is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-28-2004, 03:22 PM   #87
Prime
Am I a truck or robot?
 
Prime's Avatar
 
Status: Super Moderator
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Cybertron
Posts: 12,343
Current Game: Skyrim, Macross PS2
10 year veteran! LF Jester Veteran Modder Helpful! 
First of all, this will be long. Stormhammer made me do it Second of all, I didn't get all the way through his post...

Quote:
Originally posted by Smood
3 things:

1. You are in the vast minority
Is that so? I would guess that if the game was an exact duplication of the movies people would be pretty disappointed. e.g.

- The vast majority of saber hits are one hit kills.
- 0.001% of saber attacks actually hit.
- There are only blasters available, which almost never penetrate Jedi defense. Thus gunners would be unable to defeat jedi. So no guns FFA.
- Only darkside characters could use a saberstaff.
- Lightside could not use force push/pull on another living character, but darkside could.
- There would be no guns FFA since Jedi don't carry guns.
- Gunners couldn't use force.
- No first person view.
- No powerups.
- Required fatigue meter.
- Once killed cannot respawn.
- Damage handicaps player.
- No CTF.
- Explosives should take out buildings.
- Only carry a couple of weapons at a time.
- The game would not have MP since the dialog and atmosphere deviate so much from the films. There are no gay lamerz in Star Wars.

You get the idea. Sure, some of the examples are contrived, but I'm just trying to show that movies and games are completely different mediums, and different goals. Like it or not, some things that work for movies don't for games, and vice versa. Making a game too close to the movies will inevitably sacrifice gameplay and fun. My previous comment ment that I want (and for sure many others) want a game with good gameplay first and foremost, not a game that is an exact recreation of the movies.

Quote:
Originally posted by Smood
2. A more realistic 'fantasy' experience may possibly equate to a greater experience
Or perhaps better gameplay will. If more realism was really the driving force in enjoyment for games, most FPSs would have died out a long time ago. They most certainly haven't.

Quote:
Originally posted by Smood
3. Evolution of games in this fashion is inevitable
But realism is not a prerequisite for being fun, nor does realism guarruntee fun.

Quote:
Originally posted by Smood
he original trilogy as Cain mentioned represented far more skillful and thoughtful fighting (not just coreographed saber dancing).
Really? I have a hard time believing that Ep4 Obi-Wan vs. Vader represented a better view of saber fighting than those in the prequels. Not to mention that Lucas has stated that the whole point of the Ep1 battle was to show what Jedi could do in their prime, as opposed to fights between old men and cripples. If that is the basis for realism a game will involve tapping some sticks while chatting with each other. Sounds like fun to me...

Quote:
Originally posted by Smood
However EVEN in EP1 and EP2 the duels are slower then that of JA and JO.
How so? Obi-Wan versus Maul is so fast that at first glance it is hard to tell what is happening. To me, at least, JO/JA seem just about right. At least the way I play

Quote:
Originally posted by Smood
Moreover the gun fights are tremendously slower and also more tactical (not just simply running with a huge flak cannon, and jump off a ledge while firing at full speed). If you think otherwise you should try to better compare the game reality to the movie reality.
You seem to be looking for something like KOTOR. It sounds like exactly what you are asking for. It gives you much more realistic looking saber and blaster fights. A FPS is not the genre to provide really accurate lightsaber combat.

How do you propose to have a FPS have more realistic fights anyway? Here are some issues that need to be resolved:

1. How do you enforce no running and jumping in a FPS saber fight?
Will the game prevent the players from doing so? If so, how does the game decide when a duel is taking place? Proximity to each other? What if one player is just running by the other? Would it work for the game to all of a sudden disable running just when you are passing by another player. Do you disable running altogether? If a saberist can't run, what stops another player from thermal detonating them a lot more easily?

2. Guns vs. Sabers
The problem with representing the Star Wars movies in a game is the vastly imbalanced abilities of gunners and Jedi. The Jedi are uber-powerful and the gunner has almost no way to affect the Jedi whatsoever. Their blasters are useless against them, and you've removed any other effective weapons for the sake of realism. How is this going to work in a game if realism is to be maintained? Do they have to just run away? Why be a gunner at all?

3. Force Users vs. Non-Force users.
In the movies the Jedi have Force powers and everyone else (i.e. gunners) does not. In the movies the Jedi can mind trick, force push, choke and lightning people. For realism, the gunners have no defense whatsoever against these.

What does a gunner do in FFA Nar Shaddaa streets when he is being choked and moved over a cliff to be dropped? For realism's sake absorb and force push have been removed for him, and his weapon is useless. So what does he do? Who is going to want to play a gunner in a game like that? Do you remove the guns from saber games? That isn't realistic when compared to the movies.

4. Damage and Killing
In the movies, a person gets killed and they don't come back. They certainly don't respawn a second later and continue to fight. So should the player not be able to come back into the game? Should they have to wait for the next round? Will players want to sit around for an hour after getting killed in the first 5 minutes?

As for damage, in the movies (and real life), when someone get's hurt they won't be operating at full speed. To be realistic, the game would handicap a player (slower movement, worse aim, whatever) more and more as they take more damage. Is a player really going to want to play a game where most of the time they have limited abilities? What if they are really hurt and can't move? Not much they can do, since there are no powerups. Is it a fun game to just lie immobilized and unable to do anything? No, but it sure is realistic.

5. Hero and Villian rules
The movies are all about heros and villians, and the same rules do not apply to both. Heros get wounded and players get killed. Heros make every shot and minions miss everything. How is this going to be incorporated into the game? Is a player going to want to play as a stormtrooper when they can't hit anything and die when a rock hits them? And if you don't include that aspect of the movies, you are not sacrificing movie realism for the sake of gameplay.


Again, the whole point is that at some point realism has to be sacrificed for gameplay purposes. Like it or not, that's just the way it is.
Prime is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-28-2004, 07:28 PM   #88
Weiser_Cain
Forumite
 
Weiser_Cain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Here and there about Chicago
Posts: 562
That list actually sounds pretty good to me...
1 vader is not a cripple, or at least he doesn't fight like one. I like the fight between luke and vader just before luke is captured and taken to the emperor, Vade looks as if he's trying to take lukes head off!

2 You should be able to run and cut it just should get you killed.

3 Jedi are really really good against gunmen, remember luke got shot in the hand while rescueing Solo.

4 Damage should be adjustable, I've been playing with totaly realistic lightsaber damage and I think its great, no longer do I run through dark jedi like they're nothing. I'd like blaster bolts to be fatal when they hit a vital bodypart as well.

5 an hour? what sort of game are you playing?

6 Heros and villians? This just isn't true in starwars...
Weiser_Cain is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-28-2004, 07:32 PM   #89
Radd
Rookie
 
Radd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Currently: Midwest USA
Posts: 90
I honestly do not mind having epic plots, actually I like them quite a lot. However, there really was no feeling of anything remotely 'epic' in JO or JA. If you are going to have an epic 'save the galaxy' plot, it has to have that feel to it.

When I come to that final Sith end boss evil guy, I want a battle to remember. I want force powers flying, and when it comes to the saber duel, I want it to cover several distinct areas, each with different mood and atmosphere to it. Not a pit with a boss that I can easily avoid, and beat in a couple minutes by dropping a pillar onto him. I don't want Tavion (a rather bland character in JA if you ask me, she was better in JO) cackling while zapping energy beams from a staff, in a small, enclosed room.

I don't want "Dime-a-dozen" reborns coming at me. When I come across someone with a lightsaber, I want it to be an event.

Gameplay and level design improvements could help these things, and make the game much more fun to play.

Also, for those that say Jedi are invincible to those with blasters, you must not have seen Attack of the Clones. Plenty of Jedi were downed by blasters in that movie. I'm not saying that the games should be 100% like the movies, but I do think Smood has some points. A little more thoughtfulness in the battles would make the game a more satisfying experience. That could be done in ways that would enhance gameplay instead of detracting from it.

For instance, Saber battling could be done in such a way that kills are often one-hit, while the majority of swings don't connect. If the engine can handle it, perhaps a swign could take a limb off your opponent, leaving them open to a killing blow, or they could dodge that (with an ever decreasing life gauge due to the loss of the limb) and fight with that handicap, or flee. This could play into the multiple mission paths idea. It would also be interesting in MP. Individual battles would take longer, and take more skill to win.

Of course, if there's one thing I've learned in years of playing FPS games, the vast majority of FPS fans despise strategy and skill in their games. Complaints about camping, sniping, running for health or armour, using your surroundings to your advantage in any way abound. People will complain about what weapons you use, how you use them. I've played on servers where people would complain if you used a bacta while fighting them, they would complain if you did anything other than take your finger off the fire button and walk conviniently into their saber swings. If you do anything that shows any sort of intelligence or thought you are immeadiately labled cheap, a lamer, a noob, or any number of impolite things that I will not repeat here.

So, I don't expect the game to take that route. I expect it will remain very similar to what it is now, though perhaps fighting will be dumbed down a little more, the graphics will be nicer, and maybe the character customizer will be a little better.

I do like the idea of skills improving with use, instead of putting points into them. Would make the game a lot smoother and keep it more action oriented.


Harder, better, faster stronger...

http://steampowered.net
Radd is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-28-2004, 08:26 PM   #90
Kurgan
Headhunter
 
Kurgan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1997
Location: The Dawn of Time
Posts: 18,316
LFN Staff Member 10 year veteran! 
One article I read (sorry I forget who wrote it or where it was) actually made a good case.

At the time of the original films, the "slow" duels we see in the OT more closely aproximate how a "realistic" fight between two guys swinging guardless "instant death" swords would fight.

After all you have to worry about killing or maiming yourself with the slightest touch, a hundred times worse than the sharpest sword (and Katan enthusiasts love to brag about how it takes so much skill to wield one of those samurai blades without injuring yourself).

So they had to be super careful.

Of course once you put "the Force" into the equation, you could always just throw caution to the wind and have the Jedi just flying all over the room with zero regard for safety.

Then again, the "rationalization" prior to the prequals for why Jedi didn't just dowse each other with lightning and choke each other and push each other around in a duel was that the force of each fighter "cancelled each other out."

Though we learn in the prequels that it's out of a sense of power imbalance (not all Jedi can do all these cool powers), a sense of honor (the Light Jedi don't traditionally fight a certain way or use certain powers apparently), and also because they're over confident (witness the foolish way the Jedi went into battle against incredibly odds with no regards for stealth or armor in AOTC and the heavy casualties that resulted).

So anyway, just another perspective. Certain audiences nowadays EXPECT sword fights to use CGI or wirework and more "dramatic" stunts and acrobatics than back in the late 70's and early 80's. Movies have come that way since then.


Download JK2 maps for JA Server|BOOT CAMP!|Strategic Academy|
(JA Server: 108.178.55.189:29070)


"The Concussion Rifle is the weapon of a Jedi Knight Player, an elegant weapon, from a more civilized community." - Kyle Katarn
Kurgan is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-29-2004, 09:50 AM   #91
JediLiberator
Rookie
 
JediLiberator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 159
I just hope the next games saber system is a lot like the fighting system they used in the Return of the King game. You should get experience as you beat the parts of the game and use it to buy special moves and abilities. Also the game had parry against melee and it worked and look good. So seeing something like that for jedi knight would be cool.


The only justice you can ever have is the justice you make for yourself.
JediLiberator is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-29-2004, 02:22 PM   #92
Prime
Am I a truck or robot?
 
Prime's Avatar
 
Status: Super Moderator
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Cybertron
Posts: 12,343
Current Game: Skyrim, Macross PS2
10 year veteran! LF Jester Veteran Modder Helpful! 
Quote:
Originally posted by Weiser_Cain
That list actually sounds pretty good to me...
1 vader is not a cripple, or at least he doesn't fight like one.
Sure, cripple is too strong word. But Vader still does not have the manouverability that a young Obi-Wan has. He is more powerful, sure. I was trying to make a point that the Vader vs. Obi-Wan Ep 4 duel was not Lucas's vision of a battle between Jedi in their prime.

Quote:
Originally posted by Weiser_Cain
2 You should be able to run and cut it just should get you killed.
Okay. If you allow them to run during a duel then why should the get killed? Running allows them to avoid the swing altogether, like in JO/JA now. It doesn't matter if they have less defense, because they are running and that doesn't come into play. So how to you impose a penalty for a player that isn't in range of a swing? Lowering their defense doesn't matter, and lowering their attack only drags the fight out even longer.

I'm not trying to say that your ideas are wrong, I'm just saying that each gameplay decision has repercussions. Gameplay issues need to be taken into consideration when deciding what is best for the game. Simply saying "that's how it is in the movies" isn't always going to lead to the best game.

Quote:
Originally posted by Weiser_Cain
3 Jedi are really really good against gunmen, remember luke got shot in the hand while rescueing Solo.
True. So that was one time out of three movies. And that was multiple gunners against one Jedi. Again, a player in an MP game isn't going to be happy playing as a character who has a 0.5% chance to hit his opponant. Thus deviations have to be made from the movie to make the game more playable, that's all.

Quote:
Originally posted by Weiser_Cain
4 Damage should be adjustable, I've been playing with totaly realistic lightsaber damage and I think its great, no longer do I run through dark jedi like they're nothing. I'd like blaster bolts to be fatal when they hit a vital bodypart as well.
I agree this may work for SP (which is fine). But for MP this doesn't quite work without making other alterations as well.

I do like upped saber damage in MP though

Quote:
Originally posted by Weiser_Cain
5 an hour? what sort of game are you playing?
Exaggerated for emphasis Even in a 15-20 minute game, a player isn't going to want to get killed in the first minute and have to wait another 19. To avoid that, realism has to be sacrificed a bit to allow them to come back into the game and keep playing.

Quote:
Originally posted by Weiser_Cain
6 Heros and villians? This just isn't true in starwars...
To clarify, I don't mean villians such as Vader, but minions such as stormtroopers and Jabba's thugs. Heros can take more that one hit (like Luke and Liea), while stormtroopers die with one shot (even though they have a lot more armour than the heros). This system cannot be used in an MP game, and thus deviation from movie realism must be done.

Quote:
Originally posted by Radd
Also, for those that say Jedi are invincible to those with blasters, you must not have seen Attack of the Clones. Plenty of Jedi were downed by blasters in that movie.
True, but keep in mind that that was a many battledroids vs. few Jedi battle. For the most part, the Jedi were overwhelmed, as opposed to defeated by superior skill. Jango blasted Coleman Trebor, but Jango was acknowledged as one of the most deadly men in the galaxy. From all the movies, he is the only character to defeat a Jedi one on one with a blaster. To allow any gunner player to defeat a Jedi player, this "movie model" needs to be deviated from.

Quote:
Originally posted by Radd
I'm not saying that the games should be 100% like the movies, but I do think Smood has some points. A little more thoughtfulness in the battles would make the game a more satisfying experience. That could be done in ways that would enhance gameplay instead of detracting from it.
Again, I'm not trying to say that there is no room for improvement or that there are no good ideas here. I am just contesting the idea that all the gameplay decisions should be based on movie realism.

Quote:
Originally posted by Radd
For instance, Saber battling could be done in such a way that kills are often one-hit, while the majority of swings don't connect.
This is one way, but remember at one point in JO (can't remember which patch) the saber defense was really high and almost no hits got through. There was an outcry from many players over this. Again this shows that movie realism does not necessarily equal fun.
Prime is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-29-2004, 03:46 PM   #93
Kurgan
Headhunter
 
Kurgan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1997
Location: The Dawn of Time
Posts: 18,316
LFN Staff Member 10 year veteran! 
ramble, ramble... Force Long Post

Speeds:
Movement speed isn't a technical issue really.

Why did they slow everything down in JK2 from MotS?

Perhaps because they thought it had been so long since the last Jedi game that audiences would be unfamiliar (and unprepared) for the blazing speeds of that game?

Or perhaps they were catering to the notion of players wanting "slow drawn out duels" (which they still underestimated several times, with each patch and they still get complaints with JA)?

Who knows. But frankly making the movement speed faster should be no problem.

I'm sure a game engine can be done in such a way that the characters move so fast they can't be seen. That's not the point, but what I'm saying is that just because it (might be) on the Doom3 engine doesn't mean it will have to be SLOWER or even as slow as Doom3 may or may not be.

Personally I wouldn't mind the game being faster (than JA). But as long as there's a cvar like g_speed in there, I'll be happy (meaning the option will always be there to adjust it).

The speed will be purely a design decision. But like I said, it doesn't NEED to be any slower than it already is. To be "just like the movies" would require a completely different game, akin to an interactive movie, and those types of games have historically done rather poorly with the gamer market.

More on Movies

Besides, I'm sure folks will be too busy watching their Star Wars DVD's to care much about some 2 bit derivative (compared to LucasFilm's best efforts anyway) "movie" about Kyle Katarn and his cousin or whatever the next game will be about.

But I'm sure that's a strawman of these "just like the movies" arguments. I think when people say that they are really meaning tweak the saber combat just a bit so it looks a bit more like the combat in TPM, or tweak the force powers a bit so they cosmetically look a bit more like the ones used in the films, etc.

Because honestly how are you going to force people to play the game exactly like the characters in the movies play? They have complex motivations for all their decisions, motivations that may seem completely artificial if placed on players. We're talking Multiplayer here, which makes virtually no sense in a story-format. Why are the players here? Why are they fighting to the death? Why are they coming back to life and killing again and again? Why are they taking flags from each other then returning them? Etc.

About the closest thing to a story in MP is Siege, but even then it has made huge concessions to gameplay. It's a story in only the loosest sense. This may seem like a tangent, but really the story is what drives the characters to act like they do.

Luke fights the way he does because he's pissed at Vader because he thinks the guy killed the father he never knew. Then he fights him because he's angry that Vader might turn his sister to the Dark Side. Obi-Wan is mad at Maul because of the death of his master, but he lets his anger get away from him and screws up (much like Luke does). Obi-Wan sacrafices himself to Vader because he wants to give Luke a chance to get away. Yoda and Dooku are old rivals who want to test their skills against each other, while Anakin ignores his teacher because he's eager to prove himself and angry, etc. etc.

In MP all you get is some guys who want to kill each other for points. So how they play to get to that goal can vary widely. Then of course you always get those people who try to role play, or who just mess around or who want to join clans and all that. Very different motivations than the movie characters. And since they aren't playing for an audience (usually) they don't have to make every thing they do look "good" and have a "point." Every action they do is towards the goal of winning (or at least scoring a few points before they get kicked).


Download JK2 maps for JA Server|BOOT CAMP!|Strategic Academy|
(JA Server: 108.178.55.189:29070)


"The Concussion Rifle is the weapon of a Jedi Knight Player, an elegant weapon, from a more civilized community." - Kyle Katarn

Last edited by Kurgan; 04-29-2004 at 03:57 PM.
Kurgan is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-29-2004, 04:20 PM   #94
Master William
Addicted to SW:BF 2
 
Master William's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,234
Good points, StormHammer, though I simply hate Stealth in games, I cannot agree you on that for the obvious reason that I don't like it. I think, as you said, that Force Powers should be more powerful, like if you Force Push you should be able to push somebody really hard and far (depending on your strength and what direction you are aiming, etc).

I have hopes for sure, but then again, Raven didn't announce JK4... so all we can do so far is discuss, come up with new ideas, and simply dream.

Myself I would like to see some sort of gametype a lot like Battlefield 1942 - let's say some people pick "Pilot", "Vehicle Driver" or "Jedi" while playing this gametype. The pilots board TIE-Fighters (just an example) while the vehicle drivers board AT-ST's (another example) or similar, and Jedi's simply run out on the field with their chosen skills and battle eachother on a big map to complete goals or simply keep an outpost from being taken over by the opposite side. I want a Soldier part too, with elite soldiers of all kinds running around, Sniping, Heavy Assault, Healers, anything. It would have to have many choices. Wow, I'm drooling already

But this wouldn't be like BF1942, maybe similar, but different at the same time. More options would be offered, we could have the category Field Soldiers, filled of all sorts of soldiers (mentioned them previously) or Field Aiders who help repair buildings or vehicles, or even heal people.

Ok, now I'm going too far. I heard about SW: Battlefront coming out, though I doubt it will be that cool. After all, this is JEDI KNIGHT, but then again, we have Siege.


"It's Jango Fett! And he's brought his head!"
Master William is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-29-2004, 04:54 PM   #95
dem2k
Lurker
 
dem2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 3
/start rant\

You see I always thought that the saber battle's were determined on who is concentrating the most, rather then physical abbility. Take Episode 1 for example. Its clearly evident Maul got to Qui-gon before his last fight scene. Fear is Mauls ally, or so he says.

I also thought the reason why they were good at fending off attacks, is because of the abillity to slighty see-into/sense what there enemy is going to do (look back to "A new hope" Luke could not see the remote but he somehow sensed, forseen it). Its also evident from the films that the jedi have to stay focused and calm to pull off the neat tricks we see them perform. So Quigon tries to remain calm, (we see this as he closes his eyes in the moive, as a form of mental defense I would say). But Maul had already got him agitated and Qui couldn't focus which is why he lost, or so this is what i think.

So getting on to my point. I think its not determined by physical stature (sure it helps but not by much). Remember Dooku is also getting on, infact his age is uknown to me anyhow. But lets look at how he took on Obi-Wan (probably half his age) with ease. We can rule out Anakin for now as he is a "special case". As im watching it now, I get to thinking. Its as if the heat starts getting to Obi-wan, when you're underpresure you make mistakes. I also think that he perhaps lost focus for a nanosecond that gave Dooku the advantage. Or perhaps its a completey different proccess. Maybe its because Dooku can see deaper into what obi-wan was doing, and he see's hes going to make a mistake and takes his chances. Or even maybe it just comes down to Dooku being a better fencer/forcer then Obi is.

Its all speculation but this is what I think. Experiance, outweighs youth and stature in my opinion. /end rant
dem2k is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-29-2004, 06:13 PM   #96
Weiser_Cain
Forumite
 
Weiser_Cain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Here and there about Chicago
Posts: 562
You know what else I'd like to see? Saber forms, that way there'd be a lot more variation in lightsaber combat, and if balanced and executed propperly you'd have more freedom to fight as you chose to.
That way you hyper guys could still flip to your hearts content. And I could stand like a wall of death, calm, composed, and killing in one stroke.
JA is a fps with lightsabers, I want the next one to be a lightsaber combat game with guns. I want Tekken or Soul Calliber level of control.
Weiser_Cain is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-29-2004, 09:24 PM   #97
sora
Rookie
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: The Ebon Hawk
Posts: 176
being able to make objects float in mid air. and slowly pull objects towards you.
sora is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-30-2004, 12:40 AM   #98
Smood
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 310
Quote:
Originally posted by Rumor
Wow

1. You are wrong.
2. Not everyone plays sp exclusively
3. Nothx, won't happen. Computers are getting faster, so they can handle it just fine.
4. stfu already take your propaganda and rhetoric elsewhere.
Although I' am surprised you weren't warned by a forum mod about the verbal abuse towards me, I' am not surprised my theory has met opposition, however little sense that opposition makes.

1. Right
2. What does anything I said have to so with SP? When I say experience I mean game experience.
3. No thanks won't happen? Computers, faster.. erm.. computer speed has nothing to do with what I' am saying. Again you go off on a tangent. The points I mentioned only concern the fact that the newer tech engines have quite different animation systems that are not as forgiving to unrealistic looking animations (both in speed, and animation frames (or lack thereof)).
4. I don't think you can make me.


- DIABLO
[jediknightii.net staff]
Smood is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-30-2004, 06:21 PM   #99
Kurgan
Headhunter
 
Kurgan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1997
Location: The Dawn of Time
Posts: 18,316
LFN Staff Member 10 year veteran! 
Wink

Merging this thread with the 'Jedi Knight 4 (speculation)' thread of the same topic.


Download JK2 maps for JA Server|BOOT CAMP!|Strategic Academy|
(JA Server: 108.178.55.189:29070)


"The Concussion Rifle is the weapon of a Jedi Knight Player, an elegant weapon, from a more civilized community." - Kyle Katarn
Kurgan is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-02-2004, 03:12 AM   #100
Smood
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 310
Quote:
Originally posted by Prime
First of all, this will be long. Stormhammer made me do it Second of all, I didn't get all the way through his post...

Is that so? I would guess that if the game was an exact duplication of the movies people would be pretty disappointed. e.g.

- The vast majority of saber hits are one hit kills.
- 0.001% of saber attacks actually hit.
- There are only blasters available, which almost never penetrate Jedi defense. Thus gunners would be unable to defeat jedi. So no guns FFA.
- Only darkside characters could use a saberstaff.
- Lightside could not use force push/pull on another living character, but darkside could.
- There would be no guns FFA since Jedi don't carry guns.
- Gunners couldn't use force.
- No first person view.
- No powerups.
- Required fatigue meter.
- Once killed cannot respawn.
- Damage handicaps player.
- No CTF.
- Explosives should take out buildings.
- Only carry a couple of weapons at a time.
- The game would not have MP since the dialog and atmosphere deviate so much from the films. There are no gay lamerz in Star Wars.

You get the idea. Sure, some of the examples are contrived, but I'm just trying to show that movies and games are completely different mediums, and different goals. Like it or not, some things that work for movies don't for games, and vice versa.
Thats interesting. What you have to consider s control. You are in a sense arguing that reality sucks. What would be better then to control a saber in reality and fight with friends. Well if you think anything is better then that, then I have no business arguing with you. But if you indeed think that would be truly amazing then you can perhaps take vantage of my perspective.

It is a game. Yes. This is why we require extra luxury and general aids to help facilitate this lack of physical control, and sense. We also have protocols in place (as you mentioned), that help improve gameplay, because the reality is, we ARE NOT ACTUALLY THERE wielding sabers ourselves.

However, as games become more technically advanced, more and more of these factors that hinder our influence of the motions depicted by our screens, our 'control' weaken and even vanish which leads to steps closer and closer to truly feeling as if you are wielding the saber yourself. If you think games and movies have no business with eachother or that they are essentially always different and should remain that way, then sir I would completely disagree, and would have to say you are not of the perspective of the innovator.

Quote:
Making a game too close to the movies will inevitably sacrifice gameplay and fun. My previous comment ment that I want (and for sure many others) want a game with good gameplay first and foremost, not a game that is an exact recreation of the movies.
I think you have your mind set in the world of JEDIKNIGHT 2 (ie. quake engine), and tweaks applied to it. Try and let your mind grasp an entirely different level of control. Still the same mouse and keyboard movement, but think it more advanced and one with essentially a greater degree of control.

A great and simple analogy of this "EVOLUTION OF CONTROL" might be the game Splinter cell. You might notice the superb animation. Moreever you may notice (if you've played it of course), that you can scroll your mouse to achieve not only a slow walk, and quick jog speed, but an intermediate pace setting with animation that is cleanly blended and a good balance of both the slow and fast pace.

Now imagine adding 2 more paces, and maybe 4 more paces, and eventually adding animation so dynamic that it seemingly integrates (as in calculus), all intermitten motions giving you extreme control, and thus allowing you to better navigate based on a particular situation. It is this innovation that can make ANY GAME great, and it is this evolution of games that may be forseen. As a game developer said on XGR (Xtreme Gaming Radio) "soon we will be playing movies".
[/quote]

Quote:
Or perhaps better gameplay will. If more realism was really the driving force in enjoyment for games, most FPSs would have died out a long time ago. They most certainly haven't.
Now your jumping ahead. Your going from a game full of aids and help, to a game with NO AIDS, and NO first person view? Take it slowly and things can come into perspective. Why would FPS's die if realism was popular. Of the various styles of games FPS's seem to me to be the most condusive to a realistic environment, and best suited to convey a realistic feel. So in support to my perspective fps's are successful. But then again, this is a weak argument as many game styles are successful. So I cannot pursue it, simply reject it.

Quote:
But realism is not a prerequisite for being fun, nor does realism guarruntee fun.
True, but one must not discount realism (and when I say realism I mean reality in action and not reality in context, like physics for example, but not everything must be tactical ops or some real shooter, fantasy is still extremely appealing) and its possible implementation as a tool to enhance the level of entertainment a game provides. An environment that better resembles and reacts (ie. breaking walls and lamps upon impact perhaps) will definately bring more then a static unrealistic environment (although its success with its player is definately dependent on the way it is utilized, it may possibly be a burdon, but it could also be brilliant if it is done correctly)
[/quote]

Quote:
Really? I have a hard time believing that Ep4 Obi-Wan vs. Vader represented a better view of saber fighting than those in the prequels. Not to mention that Lucas has stated that the whole point of the Ep1 battle was to show what Jedi could do in their prime, as opposed to fights between old men and cripples. If that is the basis for realism a game will involve tapping some sticks while chatting with each other. Sounds like fun to me...
Seems like you conveniently forgot about LUKE AND VADER whose battle is of a far greater (imo) demonstration of a jedi's perception of battle, and caution. At this time we have jedi who are extremely strong, granted luke is still starting out, but he is nevertheless quite tough. Battles here demonstrate both the jedi's ability to use the force and predict what to do, but also don't go so far as to indicate the blatant coreography.

At times episode 1 and 2 do similar things with combat so that it just seems more believeable, that the jedi are using powers of their mind to fight rather then stepping in a pre determined sequence, particularily Dooku and Obi-wan. But there are times when the dancing is just too much (additional spins and twirls that are synchronized, and basically frills, you will see alot of this in ep3 from the looks of some trailer footage).
[/quote]

Quote:
How so? Obi-Wan versus Maul is so fast that at first glance it is hard to tell what is happening. To me, at least, JO/JA seem just about right. At least the way I play
Wow, are you kidding me? The movies in ep1 are fast and really enjoyable to watch. But I can easily tell each and every step and swing that is taken, it is very clear. This combination of clarity and speed is evident since it is REALITY! Obi is actually swinging and he knows what to do, he doesn't have saber stances with pre-defined attacks. So this level is ESSENTIALLY inachieveable at least for now, as games cannot be as free and close to reality as is there, but nevertheless they are progressing to something along these lines (albeit slowly).

Quote:
You seem to be looking for something like KOTOR. It sounds like exactly what you are asking for. It gives you much more realistic looking saber and blaster fights. A FPS is not the genre to provide really accurate lightsaber combat.
Again you are putting a cap on your imagination, confining ideas, restricting evolution. You must believe the impossible is achieveable somehow. KOTOR has its own extrodinary flaws as well (people don't wait until you swing, or stand in front of each other and don't move while they are making moves, moreover the player control of combat is nill, it is semi turn based and basically click to attack, the computer will perform the intricacies of the attack for you) but it is an incredible game in a different sense, which is beyond the scope of this discussion.

How do you propose to have a FPS have more realistic fights anyway? Here are some issues that need to be resolved:

1. How do you enforce no running and jumping in a FPS saber fight?

There are many options to this and all your questions that designers will eventually find suited to them (as games like jediknight evolve and go from engine to engine).

One idea would be to first have movement acceleration, so you cant strafe dance side to side, but when you push a direction you may start slow for a brief moment, then slowly ramp up speed (like reality, you can't just run in one direction then suddenly in a split second run in the other direction, you have to slow down, stop, change directions, speed up, run. Jumping could be connected to a constant use or physical force pool that governed basic jedi movement while a seperate pool was responsible for force. These are then scaled individually as desired for the best use.

2. Guns vs. Sabers
Yes this is quite a problem. But it can be solved with innovation. Although what I might say could sound unattainable or foolish, only time will reveal the possibilities of programmers and designers.

Here I would say 100% manual blocking. Obvious not to difficult of blocking but tied with saber control which is a HUGE ISSUE. My vision is that of manual mouse saber control, but still regulated with certain yet deep and branching variety of animations. It is complex to explain so I will simply say that manual block would force jedi's to take their time and use their own SKILL to block blaster shots. It would also force mercs to be agressive and break the jedi's ability to block or outshoot their deflection ability (precisely like the jedi master shot off the genoshian balcony by jango in ep2),

3. Force Users vs. Non-Force users.
How do bounty hunters do in the movies against jedi? Pretty damn good don't they (boba, jango, and also imo the greatest bounty hunter Calo Nord [from kotor] who could probablly kick the crap out of an avg jedi). When they have the skill and the mechanisms to fight (and experience/knowledge), they can perform quite well. But again this comes to the realistic implementation. Jedi should use force powers extremely sparingly so as to achieve these kinds of epic battles that seem a good fight. Again one reality system depends on another and so on. It is a big web that must be strongly linked or fail all together.

4. Damage and Killing
This issue is really up to the developer and the context of the game. As I said earlier don't just JUMP to an ALL OUT REALITY GAME (like the game that will corrupt itself if u get killed so u can never play again). But instead take smaller steps to something more and more real.

Again, immobilizing and damage might be critical to delivering an interesting and immersive experience. The other thing you have to consider is that this isn't the JEDI KNIGHT we have now with some 1 hit damage mod. This is a whole different system, one that perhaps delivers the greater realistic control that would warrant physical damage and immobilizing (as it may happen less often if 2 players are of similar skill and are able to defend and attack well, and like the movies basically endure the battle, and suffer the consequence of their defeat). When you bring all these components of reality together your mindset completely changes from that of simple 'a game' and moreover the jediknight experience in its current form.

I hope my post may have changed your way of thinking about our debate slightly, it is only a bit of what I try and conceive in my mind. A better gaming experience is always ahead, their are almost no limits.


- DIABLO
[jediknightii.net staff]
Smood is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-02-2004, 10:14 PM   #101
joesdomain
The Emperor
 
joesdomain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Indiana
Posts: 1,451
Current Game: The Force Unleashed
I think they should do a prequel Jedi Knight game set during Star Wars original trilogy period. With a good engine and graphics compared to Dark Forces or Dark Forces II. Maybe use a different main character than Kyle Katarn. I still like being able to fight enemies like legions of stormtroopers, Imperial officers, Imperial Navy Officers, Gran, Rodian, Trandoshan, Gameorean Guards. I hope it involves a story set in aound Jabba's empire going to planets like Tatoonie, Bespin, Hoth, Yavin 4, etc. I would hope they add Quarren, Weequay, klattonians and have noteable charcters like Bossk, Greedo, IG-88, Zuckuss, 4-LOM, Dengar, Boba Fett, Jabba the Hutt, Bib Fortuna. I would also like to fight creatures like Rancors, wampas, kyrat dragons, dianoga, etc.


"You Rebel Scum"

"Wipe them out, all of them"
joesdomain is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-02-2004, 11:00 PM   #102
Kurgan
Headhunter
 
Kurgan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1997
Location: The Dawn of Time
Posts: 18,316
LFN Staff Member 10 year veteran! 
Actually I've heard developers and players say that the majority of people who buy games (that are both SP and MP capable) play SP almost exclusively.

They buy the game at Wal-Mart, play through it in a couple of weeks, then buy another game.

They either don't know how to setup or join a multiplayer game or they are too lazy too, or else they have a bad ISP and dialup and it's just not fun for them.


So, in a sense, he's right about the SP thing.

BUT, any of us that are still playing the game after all this time are not playing SP!

As long as the series is both SP & MP, both have to be improved, but the primary focus will always be on SP first (since it requires the most work and makes or breaks the game sale.. gets your foot in the door so to speak).

The average game has about 4 months of life after it hits the store shelves in mass release.


Download JK2 maps for JA Server|BOOT CAMP!|Strategic Academy|
(JA Server: 108.178.55.189:29070)


"The Concussion Rifle is the weapon of a Jedi Knight Player, an elegant weapon, from a more civilized community." - Kyle Katarn
Kurgan is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-03-2004, 03:40 AM   #103
StormHammer
Fallen Jedi
 
StormHammer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Outer spiral arm of the galaxy
Posts: 5,437
10 year veteran! 
While what you say may be true, I don't classify the Jedi Knight series as 'average' games. The series has a long-standing community, and while people may come and go, the MP side of the community inevitably continues. It is still 'popular' online, and so the focus should really continue to be SP & MP combined.

Having said that, vanilla MP modes can become tiresome after a while. I'm not playing JA online as often as before, and when I do it's mostly Siege mode. Of course, I do have rather a lot of other games to get through at the moment.

I would still be intrigued to see an MP only version, along the lines of Unreal Tournament, with some innovative new MP modes. It might not have as wide an audience with a lack of SP (or an SP 'ladder' as training for online play), but it could be a rather interesting experiement.

That's not to say I'd want that for a potential JK4 - but as a separate 'Jedi' game.
StormHammer is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-03-2004, 11:50 AM   #104
jon_hill987
Senior Member
 
jon_hill987's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Gloucester (UK)
Posts: 1,989
Current Game: BRINK
Forum Veteran 
You mean like 2 compleatly seperate games? thats a good idea, How about Jedi Knight:The Hunt For Jaden and Jedi Knight Tornament 2006, or somthing like that anyway. seriosly though it is a good idea, some people never play the MP and some people use it exclusively, so paying for both is a waist of time.

Oh and to anyone who reads this and can influence lucasarts in any way, please make the next game play more like Deus Ex... with more lightsabers.






jon_hill987 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-04-2004, 04:42 PM   #105
Prime
Am I a truck or robot?
 
Prime's Avatar
 
Status: Super Moderator
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Cybertron
Posts: 12,343
Current Game: Skyrim, Macross PS2
10 year veteran! LF Jester Veteran Modder Helpful! 
Quote:
Originally posted by Smood
You are in a sense arguing that reality sucks.
No. I'm arguing against this statement:

"A more realistic 'fantasy' experience may possibly equate to a greater experience."

I am arguing that at some point realism is no longer the driving force in making the game fun and playable. At some point the fact that there is a mouse and a keyboard and lag has to be taken into account, and that means sacrifices in realism, however small, have to be made so that the game works well as a game.

I am not arguing that realism is not desireable or that it has gone as far as it can go.

Quote:
Originally posted by Smood
However, as games become more technically advanced, more and more of these factors that hinder our influence of the motions depicted by our screens, our 'control' weaken and even vanish which leads to steps closer and closer to truly feeling as if you are wielding the saber yourself.
True. But there are issues other than realism that come into play (lag, balance, and so on). And the requirements of all those things don't always line up with perfect realism.

Quote:
Originally posted by Smood

Try and let your mind grasp
Please don't patronize me.

Quote:
Originally posted by Smood
an entirely different level of control. Still the same mouse and keyboard movement, but think it more advanced and one with essentially a greater degree of control.
But the fact is that control is still coming from a mouse and keyboard. Until control comes from a stick in your hand mapping your movement, deviations from realism will have to be made to make the game work. That is all I'm saying.

Quote:
Originally posted by Smood
True, but one must not discount realism (and when I say realism I mean reality in action and not reality in context, like physics for example, but not everything must be tactical ops or some real shooter, fantasy is still extremely appealing) and its possible implementation as a tool to enhance the level of entertainment a game provides.
I'm not saying at all that more realism can't be more enjoyable. I'm saying it isn't automatically more enjoyable. At some point more realism isn't desireable. CTF games aren't really based on realism from Star Wars. Does taking that game out for the sake of realism make the game more fun?

Quote:
Originally posted by Smood
Wow, are you kidding me? The movies in ep1 are fast and really enjoyable to watch. But I can easily tell each and every step and swing that is taken, it is very clear.
Fair enough. I'm trying to say that obi's swings are just as fast as my character's blue swings in JA.

Quote:
Originally posted by Smood
Again you are putting a cap on your imagination, confining ideas, restricting evolution.
No. But I understand as a software designer that at sacrifices in realism have to be made to make the game work as a game.

Quote:
Originally posted by Smood
You must believe the impossible is achieveable somehow.
Or I can look at what I know about implementing software systems that attempt to represent reality. For complex systems, at some point estimations have to be made to make everything work. At this point a little bit of realism is sacrificed. That is my only point.

Quote:
Originally posted by Smood
1. How do you enforce no running and jumping in a FPS saber fight?

There are many options to this and all your questions that designers will eventually find suited to them (as games like jediknight evolve and go from engine to engine).

One idea would be to first have movement acceleration, so you cant strafe dance side to side, but when you push a direction you may start slow for a brief moment, then slowly ramp up speed (like reality, you can't just run in one direction then suddenly in a split second run in the other direction, you have to slow down, stop, change directions, speed up, run. Jumping could be connected to a constant use or physical force pool that governed basic jedi movement while a seperate pool was responsible for force. These are then scaled individually as desired for the best use.
But this doesn't prevent the player from running and avoiding saber swings.

Quote:
Originally posted by Smood
2. Guns vs. Sabers
Yes this is quite a problem. But it can be solved with innovation. Although what I might say could sound unattainable or foolish, only time will reveal the possibilities of programmers and designers.

Here I would say 100% manual blocking. Obvious not to difficult of blocking but tied with saber control which is a HUGE ISSUE. My vision is that of manual mouse saber control, but still regulated with certain yet deep and branching variety of animations. It is complex to explain so I will simply say that manual block would force jedi's to take their time and use their own SKILL to block blaster shots. It would also force mercs to be agressive and break the jedi's ability to block or outshoot their deflection ability (precisely like the jedi master shot off the genoshian balcony by jango in ep2),
But if a gunner has to be agressive and a jedi has to be defensive, the Jedi wins. For the sake of realism, the Jedi is going to deflect, say, 90% of the shots coming at him when playing defensively. To have any hope, the gunner has to hold down the fire button and pump many shots at the Jedi. What happens to the %90 of the shots the Jedi deflects back at the gunner? They hit him and he's probably dead. I'm just trying to point out that the movie system does not work cut and paste into a game. Alterations have to be made to that realism to make the game playable.

Quote:
Originally posted by Smood
3. Force Users vs. Non-Force users.
How do bounty hunters do in the movies against jedi? Pretty damn good don't they (boba, jango, and also imo the greatest bounty hunter Calo Nord [from kotor] who could probablly kick the crap out of an avg jedi). When they have the skill and the mechanisms to fight (and experience/knowledge), they can perform quite well.
Well, Boba didn't do jack against any Jedi, and was actually taken out by a blind man with a stick. We saw Jango perhaps beat obi-wan and kill one Jedi before getting killed by a Jedi. I beat Calo as a level 4 scout

It is fine to say the bounty hunters do well against Jedi, but how to you implement that into the game rules? Exact realism doesn't solve this.

Quote:
Originally posted by Smood
But again this comes to the realistic implementation. Jedi should use force powers extremely sparingly so as to achieve these kinds of epic battles that seem a good fight. Again one reality system depends on another and so on. It is a big web that must be strongly linked or fail all together.
So you want to restrict when the Jedi can use the force to get realistic looking battles? There is no restrictions in the movies for Jedi using the force. Is this not a deviation from movie realism?

Quote:
Originally posted by Smood
4. Damage and Killing
This issue is really up to the developer and the context of the game. As I said earlier don't just JUMP to an ALL OUT REALITY GAME (like the game that will corrupt itself if u get killed so u can never play again). But instead take smaller steps to something more and more real.
OK. That's my point. You can't just implement all out reality for a game and have it work well.

Quote:
Originally posted by Smood
A better gaming experience is always ahead, their are almost no limits.
Yes, it is always ahead, but time, money, and available resources always put on limits
Prime is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-05-2004, 04:52 AM   #106
Kurgan
Headhunter
 
Kurgan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1997
Location: The Dawn of Time
Posts: 18,316
LFN Staff Member 10 year veteran! 
If you want an example of "more realistic" sword combat in an action video game, I suggest you check out Bushido Blade and Bushido Blade 2 for the Sony Playstation.

THIS is the best swords combat I've ever seen in a video game, period (you'll note the Raven team seems to have learned a lot from their example).

You've got stances, great hit detection, blocking is carried out with swings or your blade simply being in the way of the other person's swing. You can do tons of different moves, crouch, jump, run/walk, roll on the ground, do knock downs, ground stabs, combos, etc. and damage parts of the environment. You can even pickup a handfull of dirt to toss in your opponent's face on certain levels.

In the first Bushido Blade you have visible damage on your player model, and not only (as in BB2) can you have one or both of your arms wounded (hangs limply at your side with only your sword arm slowing down and being less able to block), but you can also have both of your LEGS wounded as well, forcing you to crouch and making it nearly impossible to walk around!

Of course there are a few major differences...

1) While you can toss projectiles and fire guns on occasion, the majority of the battle is melee based.. there's less stuff to worry about and no need to balance other weapons.

2) There's no online play, this is strictly on the same machine (or networked through a PSX link) so you don't have lag to factor in, as you would in any online game.

3) There's only two combatants at any one time. Another issue that would creep into SP & MP especially.

4) There's no force powers. All you usually have is your melee weapon and possibly a "secret weapon" like a daggar or shuriken you can toss at your enemy.

And this is strictly dueling. The Jedi Knight series has always been about more than just two combatants dueling. There's a whole galaxy of other options that have to be taken into consideration.

For the "ultimate dueling game" this is still where it's at, but if you want the Star Wars flavor, Jedi Academy is top of my list.

That doesn't mean it can't get better, but as I see it, that is the standard set, other than JK1, which set the standard for story, cutscenes, morality choice/alternate paths, and pure speed & adrenaline. MotS's strongpoint was in its options. Tons of maps, tons of skins, tons of variables to mess with. But the series has always been about lots of options, and I think it should stay that way.

A pure dueling game would be great, but it just wouldn't be the successor to the series we've been waiting for. It just wouldn't live up to the reputation set by previous installments.


Download JK2 maps for JA Server|BOOT CAMP!|Strategic Academy|
(JA Server: 108.178.55.189:29070)


"The Concussion Rifle is the weapon of a Jedi Knight Player, an elegant weapon, from a more civilized community." - Kyle Katarn

Last edited by Kurgan; 05-08-2004 at 06:28 AM.
Kurgan is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-05-2004, 01:16 PM   #107
Prime
Am I a truck or robot?
 
Prime's Avatar
 
Status: Super Moderator
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Cybertron
Posts: 12,343
Current Game: Skyrim, Macross PS2
10 year veteran! LF Jester Veteran Modder Helpful! 
Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
If you want an example of "more realistic" sword combat in an action video game, I suggest you check out Bushido Blade and Bushido Blade 2 for the Sony Playstation.
I really need to check out those games. I've seen them mentioned as the best for sword combat a few times now...

Last edited by Kurgan; 05-08-2004 at 06:28 AM.
Prime is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-05-2004, 08:24 PM   #108
babywax
 
babywax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 259
OK, after reading ALL of that, I think I'll post what I wish JK4 could be.




Saber Combat
Technical details included

For saber combat, I hope they use an inverse kinematics system.
Someone before said that you could not use this due to having a 2d movement and needing to move in 3d. Normally this would be true, but through some thought I have figured out a way to do this.
All you have to do is imagine a circle. You have a circle around your hand, now, when you move your mouse to the left, it moves the tip of the blade to the left on the circle. When you move it to the right it moves it to the right, up goes up and down goes down. There you go, one part done.
That takes care of right or left click (when you hold it). The other button (left or right click) would then move both arms left/right/up/down. Holding both left click and right click would cause you to do both at once, allowing you to really swing your sword, moving your wrists and arms at the same time.

To calculate damage:
Time spent swinging adds to damage, if you change direction of your swing, it lowers damage. You would have to add a little buffer to this to account for imperfections, but you get the idea.
This system would also be used to calculate the "power" of your swing, used for parrying. Parrying would have the physics calculated using the already existing physics engine in the game engine.

All movement would be disabled while swinging your saber, this would allow you to concentrate much more on attacking instead of running around like a doofus. When you start to control your saber though, you would still continue moving in your direction for a moment. This would allow you to keep moving while you're deflecting blaster bullets.

Attack and defence buttons would be the same.

This system is feasible, the only hitch is with netcode, I don't know how well this would perform over dial-up.

Damage should be one hit kills for torso, neck and head, and two hit kills for limbs. When you hit your enemy's limb, it would cause his attacks to slow and attack power to lower, making his attacks easier to parry.
Leg shots make the enemy slow down.





Movement
All walking. Map sizes would have to be tweaked to make walking not too annoying. You would have a meter for stamina, and you can use this meter to run. It doesn't run out too slowly, but it takes a long time to regenerate, hopefully this would make people save it for chasing gunners.





Guns
Blasters, maybe grenades, but all blasters. Blasters, if aimed skillfully enough, can beat a lightsaber. Just like a lightsaber can beat a blaster. If you catch someone off gaurd they're dead in 1 shot, or close to it if you only hit their arm or leg.

How will you block blasters you ask? Simple. All jedi get a "force sense" power (not like the current one) that draws a line along the bullet's path. The color of this line increases intensity when it gets closer, so once it is bright red you know it is just about to hit. Bullets would still travel at roughly the same speed they do now, this would have to be tweaked.

Shooting speed would be reduced, mainly to about 2 shots a second for the fastest weapon. It would be more about aiming your shots instead of trying to get lucky.





Force Powers
Force powers would mainly move objects. They would not be a dominant thing in the game, but used more in a stealthy manner. Used most of all to set traps and move things from afar.
No lighting, no mind trick that makes you invisible. Just straight forward powers.
When you use a power, you are stationary. You put your hand up and face the object like your are concentrating on it.

Force Telekinises -
Pick up and object and control it from a distance. Somewhat like grip without damage, this allows you to pick up and object and move it. The amount of weight you can lift lowers as the distance between you and the object increases. This is for picking up stuff up to around 100-150 pounds TOPS. That's within like 5 feet.
Useless against Jedi/Dark Jedi.

Force Push -
This also only works on inanimate objects and droids. Same as the above. You hold down your force button to scale the amount of power, and wait as a meter fills up. You let go when you reach the desired power. This makes a delay between when you start using the power and when you use it, making you vulnerable for that time. If something is real close, just tap your force button.
Useless against Jedi/Dark Jedi.

Force Pull -
Same as Force Push.
If aimed at merce
Useless against Jedi/Dark Jedi.

Force Jump -
This is a bit different from the current force jump. It is not for moving forward, but almost exlusively for moving up. You crouch on the ground and prepare to jump, a meter shows up just like force push, and you let go when you reach the desired jump height. This allows for accessing higher places, without making it a superhero flying banana peanut circus.

Force Mind Trick -
This does not make you invisible. It allows you to persuade enemy AI to do things they wouldn't normally. It only works on stormtroopers for the most part, but you can convince the stormtrooper squad leader to take his men somewhere else while you sneak past them!
No use in multiplayer, not available in multiplayer.
Useless against Jedi/Dark Jedi.

Force Regenerate -
Allows you to slowly regenerate health over time.

Force Sense -
Adding points to this force power increases the radius in which you can see incoming bullets.

Those are all the force powers.
When you have your lightsaber down, your force pool regenerates faster.





Maps
Cities would hopefully boast lots of NPCs walking around. If an engine like the CryEngine was used, you could just imagine Endor with little ewoks all around in treehouses.
The game would be largely darker than JA. A little under half the missions would be set at night. Gratuitous use of weather effects like rain would be used.





Gameplay
In multiplayer, you could choose to be either Jedi or Mercenary. Jedi can't use guns, only a lightsaber and a simple blaster like the one in JA.
Jedi get points to use in force powers.
Mercenaries get points to use on equipment.
Equipment would include mandalorian armor with jetpacks, guns, grenades, flamethrowers(maybe) and deployable turrets(maybe). They could also use equipment points to buy "gyro packs" which would give them improved balance. Because of this they would be harder to knock down with force powers.
Jedi would always have single sabers. Duals and/or staves would be too hard to work out with the combat system.





Player Customization
Using bones set in the model's face, a customization system like TopSpin would be worked out, allowing for massive customization of the face. Increase the width and height of your cheekbones, move your nose and resize it. Move your lips or make them wider. Raise your eyebrows or make them further apart.
Clothing would be one piece. Creating two-set pieces of clothing isn't worth it, being able to customise your face is enough, plus, when the whole set of clothing is modelled it looks much better than mixed up torso/leg combos.
Clothing would be dark too, consisting mostly of cloth clothing for Jedi.



Well... I think that's it. This post is getting a little hefty now so I think I'll stop. Turned out a lot longer than I wanted it to be heh. Good luck reading it, hopefully it isn't to unorganized.
babywax is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-07-2004, 07:14 AM   #109
Darth Rythe
The Sith Lord
 
Darth Rythe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Qld, Australia
Posts: 2,293
I think you should all work for Lucas Arts:P





Zaxted Starport | Rhett at his Worst | Lego Night Club |
Knowledge is power.....power is required for computers.....computers are required for porn...
computers are very freakin important! --- Astrotoy7
Darth Rythe is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-07-2004, 10:38 AM   #110
babywax
 
babywax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 259
Then we would have one wierd game including tons of NPCs, a new sabering system, and lots and lots of bugs
babywax is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-08-2004, 12:38 AM   #111
Crow_Nest
Forum Spammer
 
Crow_Nest's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Singapore, Asia
Posts: 5,307
`!

Quote:
Originally posted by babywax
Cities would hopefully boast lots of NPCs walking around. If an engine like the CryEngine was used, you could just imagine Endor with little ewoks all around in treehouses.
The game would be largely darker than JA. A little under half the missions would be set at night. Gratuitous use of weather effects like rain would be used.
Imagine what the requirements would be like......




Xbox 360 Gamertag: cr0wnes7
Crow_Nest is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-08-2004, 02:33 AM   #112
Weiser_Cain
Forumite
 
Weiser_Cain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Here and there about Chicago
Posts: 562
Re: `!

Quote:
Originally posted by |GG|Crow_Nest
Imagine what the requirements would be like......
I can hack it. And if not I'd upgrade.
Weiser_Cain is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-08-2004, 03:11 PM   #113
babywax
 
babywax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 259
Quote:
Imagine what the requirements would be like......
Not too high if done correctly (Good use of LODing on the trees would keep the polycounts low enough probably). Of course the cryengine probably wouldn't be used, but it already can do treehouses and stuff etc.. It is in one of their official maps and it runs very well.
Only problem with the CryEngine is that the online play is fairly laggy client side, and the netcode isn't exactly great yet.

That's one of the bigger advantages of Source IMO, because they will be using netcode similar to half life, which has very good netcode since it has been out for so long.
babywax is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-08-2004, 08:04 PM   #114
Tyler_Durden
 
Tyler_Durden's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 593
Actually, babywax, i posted about a system similar to this wherein the mouse is an extension of your arm and thus would follow any action you would take with the saber be it blocking or slashing. It would be pretty intuitive if done right.
Tyler_Durden is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-09-2004, 01:39 AM   #115
Kurgan
Headhunter
 
Kurgan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1997
Location: The Dawn of Time
Posts: 18,316
LFN Staff Member 10 year veteran! 
Such a system didn't come off so well in Die By the Sword, sadly.


Download JK2 maps for JA Server|BOOT CAMP!|Strategic Academy|
(JA Server: 108.178.55.189:29070)


"The Concussion Rifle is the weapon of a Jedi Knight Player, an elegant weapon, from a more civilized community." - Kyle Katarn
Kurgan is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-09-2004, 09:58 AM   #116
babywax
 
babywax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 259
I still think it could be done well It would require a lot of work though, however, most of the new "big name" engines coming out seem to feature this, Far Cry, Stalker, I *think* HL2 features it too, not sure if it is just part of the Havok engine or you can touch it with mods.
I wonder if Doom 3 has IK?
babywax is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 06-03-2004, 02:15 AM   #117
Clone L68362
Forumite
 
Clone L68362's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Totally lost
Posts: 554
Ok, the AI HAS to increase in intelligence. They just aren't very smart. At all. Also there has to be more interaction (civilians, mind tricking them to tell things, and optional stealth.)
Then they gotta make cutscenes better. Watch the cutscene after you beat the last Vjun mission. Horrible. I couldn't tell wtf hapened the first time I watched it. On player customization, I hope they have the same options and clothes in JK3 and more races and genders. Also, they have to do different voices. As to the story, they should give you an option to choose weather you followed the dak or light path in JK3. And lastly, a better saber fighting mode. It's awfully easy to run up to a reborn and kill in one hit with red stance.


My sig is stupid.
Clone L68362 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 06-03-2004, 03:13 AM   #118
Rad Blackrose
Banned
 
Rad Blackrose's Avatar
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Retired
Posts: 810
The one consistency I noticed across the board is the word saber. Saber this, saber that.

I will tell you this: as long as the Jedi Knight series continutes to use engines half assed to create bumbling stances, poor hit detection, and so on and so forth, the longer the series will continue to stagnate until either:

a.) people take the hint and the series dies out due to rehashing on the same principle

b.) someone figures out that a Jedi Knight game, especally since everyone is so ****ing rabid about a lightsaber, is just not possible in the current FPS engines/conventions, and an engine has to be created from scratch to get the true desired results

Yes, you heard me right, if you want to see better saber combat, then you're going to need to turn away from the Quake 3 engine. Don't bother with the Doom 3 engine. **** the Unreal engine! The one thing consistent with these engines is the fact that they are built for one specifc kind of weapon:

Guns. Lots of guns.

Face it, in games like Quake, Half-Life, and what not, melee combat is an afterthought. In Counter-Strike, for example, the knife is a humiliation kill, FFS. Raven can try all they want to try and let the fans have their cake and eat it by implementing a half assed saber system WHILE keeping FPS guns intact, but in the end it's only going to send gameplay in one direction: right down the ****ter.

It is my personal feelings that BOTH the saber system and the gun system could be stronger, however they both can't be active at the same time because it creates balancing issues and massive headaches. Especially when you factor in Star Wars' unique weaponry... *cough the concussion rifle cough*

If Dark Forces, and more specifically Kyle, never went down the path of the Jedi, we wouldn't be in this kind of a rut hole, now wouldn't we?

Then again, this could just be me being a combat purist... And since when do we say that it's so hard to use katanas Kurgan?
Rad Blackrose is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 06-03-2004, 10:16 AM   #119
Prime
Am I a truck or robot?
 
Prime's Avatar
 
Status: Super Moderator
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Cybertron
Posts: 12,343
Current Game: Skyrim, Macross PS2
10 year veteran! LF Jester Veteran Modder Helpful! 
Quote:
Originally posted by Rad Blackrose
b.) someone figures out that a Jedi Knight game, especally since everyone is so ****ing rabid about a lightsaber, is just not possible in the current FPS engines/conventions, and an engine has to be created from scratch to get the true desired results

Yes, you heard me right, if you want to see better saber combat, then you're going to need to turn away from the Quake 3 engine. Don't bother with the Doom 3 engine. **** the Unreal engine! The one thing consistent with these engines is the fact that they are built for one specifc kind of weapon:

Guns. Lots of guns.
Rad, this is a very refreshing post.
Prime is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 06-03-2004, 02:54 PM   #120
Amidala from Chop Shop
Politically-correct jerk
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: In exile
Posts: 1,433
Players should be limited to using only team chat (messagemode2) while playing.

Only spectators should be able to use general chat (messagemode). Any points scored should be retained when going to spectator.

In other words, if you want to chat (except team chat), you must go to spectator, but you would keep any points you had scored so you could go to spectator and rejoin the game later without losing your points.

Amidala from Chop Shop is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Go Back   LucasForums > Network > JediKnight Series > Game Discussion > Jedi Academy > The Official Merged JK4 Speculation Thread!

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:36 AM.

LFNetwork, LLC ©2002-2011 - All rights reserved.
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.