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Old 10-13-2004, 06:38 PM   #81
Admiral Vostok
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Certainly going just from the concept art we've seen as Viceroy is there isn't much evidence to support the idea that Greivous = Maul.

However I find both the Maul=Sifo-Dyas and the Sifo-Dyas=Greivous theories to have merit, so you can see the obvious leap in logic.


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Old 10-13-2004, 11:47 PM   #82
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Whoever said Sifo Dyas was ever on the council yes he was a jedi master but no one ever said he was on the council

and for that so called theory fuel I wouldn't count on it yet If you bothered to read the article which I highly doubt you will dikscover that that art was done for a COMIC and that picture to me wasn't in the least suprising considering the rumours about episode 2 was that he came back with mechanical legs.

ANswer me this though Just why would he use Maul he'd been a proven Failure beaten by a PADAWAN however Dooku was beaten off By a master not defeated but beaten off and that was After defeating Who was supposed to be hearalded as one of the most powerful Upcomming jedi and Master Kenobi.

From That perspective Maul is useless and Besides you can't be a Brilliant Tacticain like Grevious if you were a sith you'd be full of anger and anger clouds any tactics.

If it's Maul's brain then why is the skin and eyes there?
wouldn't he just be a brain in a full robot body?
If He Is Maul then why are his eyes different?
Why are his eyes all yellow with one long black stripe?
why are his eyes a different shape?
Why is the skin around his eyes brown?
Why is the flesh around his chest area green?
why is Grevious's head far thinner than mauls?

Vostok you should watch the making of Grevious v ideo and take a screenshot of the last couple of seconds on the zoomes up face and then compare it to maul and you will see that they can't be the same person.

Maul's story was finished in Episode 1 He was there because he was there and he died there end of story No Star Wars technology brings life back to the dead that Is a cardinal rule in all of Star wars whether it be Gosphel EU or Sacred Film neither purports that or why else would Obi-Wan be so upset when he knew Qui-Gon could be revived or why would luke be sad when he knew his father could be brought back?


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Old 10-14-2004, 07:26 AM   #83
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You've made so many mistakes with your assumptions, so let me help you out:
Quote:
Whoever said Sifo Dyas was ever on the council yes he was a jedi master but no one ever said he was on the council
Dispute my knowledge of Star Wars and ye shall be smited.
Lama Su: "Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas is still a leading member of the Jedi Council, is he not?"
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and for that so called theory fuel I wouldn't count on it yet If you bothered to read the article which I highly doubt you will dikscover that that art was done for a COMIC and that picture to me wasn't in the least suprising considering the rumours about episode 2 was that he came back with mechanical legs.
I don't know why you highly doubt my reading of the article, you probably just said that as a cheap shot as you always do. But since you've obviously read the article you mustn't have missed the part that says the comics "will showcase new designs from the artists most responsible for the dazzling imagery in Revenge of the Sith."
Quote:
If it's Maul's brain then why is the skin and eyes there?
wouldn't he just be a brain in a full robot body?
Not necessarily. It could quite easily be his whole head.
Quote:
If He Is Maul then why are his eyes different?
Why are his eyes all yellow with one long black stripe?
why are his eyes a different shape?
Why is the skin around his eyes brown?
Why is the flesh around his chest area green?
why is Grevious's head far thinner than mauls?
Again as I already said you're going from concept work. I'm not saying Greivous definitely is Maul, I'm just saying don't discout it from what we've seen in the concept work.
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No Star Wars technology brings life back to the dead that Is a cardinal rule in all of Star wars whether it be Gosphel EU or Sacred Film neither purports that or why else would Obi-Wan be so upset when he knew Qui-Gon could be revived or why would luke be sad when he knew his father could be brought back?
It is not a cardinal rule at all. It could be some sort of perverse technology that no-one knows about, and even if they did know about it they would never use it because of how horrible it is. Obviously you've never read Frankenstein. Indeed Maul/Greivous could be the only person this has ever been performed on. He could in fact just be a prototype for the technology that will keep Darth Vader alive.


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Old 10-14-2004, 07:47 AM   #84
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Oh What I'm looking at isn't Concept Art Like I said It's from the end of the Making Of General Grevious Video and I wouldn't say the image at the end is a Concept no I'd say that's the Finished Article

I'll edit this with a link of two pictures ttogether.

http://dk_viceroy.tripod.com/The_Comparison.doc


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Old 10-14-2004, 07:48 AM   #85
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Well I've seen the making of Greivous video and I don't remember seeing any bits that looked like they were from the movie, so I eagerly await your captured images.

EDIT: the link you provided does not work.


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Old 10-14-2004, 07:49 AM   #86
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Check Above and for your convinience I've put a Maul Beside it too

That Grevious Certainly Doesn't Look like Concept It looks Like Something that they've already Started Filming With Since I remeber them saying that he's gone be all CGI

EDIT:Try Right Clicking and got to Save Target since it's a downloadable anyway.


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Old 10-14-2004, 07:55 AM   #87
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Still doesn't work. Tripod doesn't allow file hosting obviously.


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Old 10-14-2004, 08:06 AM   #88
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That Seems Eminenetly So Of Course

http://www.2and2.net/Uploads/Documen...Comparison.doc

I however Rarely Give up


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Old 10-14-2004, 10:08 AM   #89
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The eyes and voice are easily explained. The eyes are robotic implants and Grievous speaks through a voice synthesizer similar to Vader, thus the differences. No mystery.


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Old 10-14-2004, 10:25 AM   #90
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As I said way back above, it's probable that when Sifo-Dyas took on the persona of Darth Maul he changed his eyes - perhaps with contact lenses - so he looked different to Sifo-Dyas. Perhaps Greivous' eyes are what Sifo-Dyas' eyes really look like?

But again, I stress that the picture of Greivous is just concept art, not an in-movie still. Unless you think there is a scene in Revenge of the Sith where Greivous' head floats in mid air on a pure white background?

When it comes down to it, I find it highly unlikely that if my theory were true they would give Greivous the same eyes as Maul anyway. That would be a bit too obvious, so that when the revelation comes no-one would be surprised.

Keep in mind that when Darth Vader was revealed as Luke's father, the fact was kept very secret from nearly everyone. Only Mark Hamill and James Earl Jones knew before the movie was released. Not even David Prowse knew, he was given fake lines. So it is entirely possible that Greivous' true identity is being kept secret by Lucas intentionally planting misleading concept art...

And here is yet another thought... what if Darth Maul/Sifo-Dyas was a changeling?


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Old 10-14-2004, 11:32 AM   #91
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Now that theory has Credence It certainly fits in though wouldn't he have reverted back to his original from when he was abreviated since Zam did when she was dieing so We can assume it takes concentration to maintain a form.

I don't like to Say anything that could go against this theory because i like it but wouldn't Maul then have done some shape changing tricks and tried to turn Qui and Obi against each other that certainly sounds like something a sith would do.

Like I said Grevious is supposed to be a CGI character so their obviously not going to have a picture of him laughing it up with lucas right?

What Contact Lenses would cover the Entire Eye including the white area? I myself wear Contact Lenses they only cover the pupil and remeber if those were sifo-dyas's eyes wouldn't he need something different to a contact lens since you would still be able to see the yellow area's where the white is supposed to be and the black stripe would pretty much dominate.

They can't be implant's either We've seen from that TF pilot that eye implant's are very bulky and even EU has nothing to say on the subject of eye implant's since the only person that could have had an eye implant Didn't because His other pilots would have needed it more and he is Baron Soontir Fell better known later on as Syndic Fell


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Old 10-14-2004, 05:05 PM   #92
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Now that theory has Credence It certainly fits in though wouldn't he have reverted back to his original from when he was abreviated since Zam did when she was dieing so We can assume it takes concentration to maintain a form.
Perhaps Maul's appearance was his original form? It's possible that Clawdites aren't the only changelings in the galaxy. It's also possible that Maul was better at holding his form than Zam was, or that after he's been in the form for that long it becomes more permanent. Also if Maul is a species other than Clawdite, perhaps his species finds it far easier to shape-shift, and they don't revert to their natural form when killed.
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I don't like to Say anything that could go against this theory because i like it but wouldn't Maul then have done some shape changing tricks and tried to turn Qui and Obi against each other that certainly sounds like something a sith would do.
Glad you like the theory, and in fact I quite like it too. Having thought more about it today I think it's quite possible that a changeling could be involved in all this. As for confusing Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, shape-shifting is probably quite hard to do which is why Zam didn't change whilst she was supposed to be hiding from the Jedi. But also he might not have wanted to reveal the fact he is a changeling. Finally, Maul is more of a full-on berzerk fighter, sneaking around in a disguise is not his forte.
Quote:
What Contact Lenses would cover the Entire Eye including the white area? I myself wear Contact Lenses they only cover the pupil and remeber if those were sifo-dyas's eyes wouldn't he need something different to a contact lens since you would still be able to see the yellow area's where the white is supposed to be and the black stripe would pretty much dominate.
Contact lenses that cover the entire eye are common today, theyre used in many movies. I just watched the behind the scenes stuff on my Pirates of the Caribbean DVD, and most if not all of the pirates had contact lenses, some that covered the entire eye so the whites of their eyes appeared yellow. The dude with the wooden eye had a particularly large contact lense that made his eye stick out.


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Old 10-15-2004, 04:00 AM   #93
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I don't like the changeling idea because the idea of changelings to me is to far fetched, though it works for the story by explaining it all very nicely in this case. I do, however think that it would be a lot of fun to be one.

I think that when this movie comes out, we will probably find out (to our disappointment) that these three names will be for three different individuals. Maul was only Maul. Sifo was only Sifo and no actor ever played him and he will for ever remain faceless. And Grievous will only be the General, another short lived character. IF this were true, that would be awful, wouldn't it?

Let's look at this from George's Star Wars story telling history. How many short lived characters does he really have? There are very few that have come into the movie, made an impact on the story line in some way and only been here for one movie. This has been said before but I want to repeat it because I believe it is a strong argument for General Grievous being either one of Sifo Dias or Darth Maul. I think that it is more likely that Darth Maul was SD and he is GG.

I believe that George Lucas is doing this for a few reasons. One, to bring back a beloved character of Maul, explaining who Sifo is and how the clone army was ordered and to foreshadow in the ROTS that when Anakin "dies" in the lava pit that he can be "rebuilt" with a mechanical body.

I understand that that last part is hard to understand because we all know that it can happen, but look at it from the storytelling perspective as if this will be the first time you ever see episode 3 and that you have never before seen the last 3 movies. You are not expecting Anakin to die nor fall into a pit and turn into a mechanical man with a dark helmet, red and blue lights on his chest and that sounds like a prank heavy breather on the phone.


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Old 10-15-2004, 08:51 AM   #94
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I Like to think of Maul and Sifo Dyas as packaged together and left there however Grevious will be short lived in the Movies but George Lucas has ordered and given his blessing for him to be fleshed out in the EU which means that there will be a piece of EU that will be immune and will be even more Cannon by the strcitest Deinfition of the word than the Movies and all of their Special Editions the Grevious EU will be Immutable and closer to perfection opposed to the Movie's in the sense they won't be changed after being published also the fact it's been given a blessing.

I'm in a Platonic mood today but I'll leave everyone else to attempt to Unravel the Mysteries I put before you Since I am a student Of Philosophy and Ethics the NJO series holds far more interest for me that it does for others particularly in the area of Jedi Philosophy as we study Jedi-ism as a religon in Philosophy and ethics.

And Yes Jedi-ism is a real religon


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Old 10-15-2004, 11:22 AM   #95
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Viceroy, there is so much you don't understand about canon, least of which is how to spell it.
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but George Lucas has ordered and given his blessing for him to be fleshed out in the EU which means that there will be a piece of EU that will be immune and will be even more Cannon by the strcitest Deinfition of the word than the Movies
Wrong. Like all other EU it has been allowed to come into existence by George Lucas. All the EU on Greivous is still only that: EU. It is in no way more canonical than the movies, so by the strictest definition of the word you are way off.

George Lucas "gave his blessing" to Greivous EU in exactly the same way he "gave his blessing" to all the other EU in existence today. He's allowed it to come into being, but that doesn't make it in tune with his vision of the Star Wars Universe.


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Old 10-15-2004, 12:21 PM   #96
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There is a differnce between giving his blessing and allowing it to exist.

You still are fascinated by the shadows on the cave wall arn't you vostok you will never turn round and look at the true world and see the fire and The One.

As such everything you say is subject to scrutiny since what you are saying is not what you mean what you are trying to say and since you are not talking of an idea or form, but a particular what you are saying has no true meaning so As such it will be dismissed. I shall leave you to your shadows Vostok.


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Old 10-15-2004, 12:26 PM   #97
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For the love of punctuation...


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Old 10-15-2004, 12:34 PM   #98
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I see your resorting to old Insults Luke That Only needed one comma and a full stop.


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Old 10-15-2004, 01:09 PM   #99
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That is not an insult. If you are insulted by someone requesting some decent punctuation in your posts you need to grow a thicker skin.

As for the difference between "giving a blessing" and "allowing it to exist", there really is no difference in terms of what we're talking about. "Giving a blessing" is just a nicer way to say "allowing it to exist". There are several places where EU in general - not just that relating to General Greivous - has been described as having George Lucas' blessing. That doesn't mean he holds it in any higher regard than the rest of EU out there.


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Old 10-16-2004, 08:21 AM   #100
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He's wishing the EU about grevious good luck because For the people who want to understand the back story about grevious they'll have to make him richer by buying the books.

And something's gonna have to flesh out grevious the film Isn't called Star Wars Episode 3 Grevious Beginnings it is?


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Old 10-16-2004, 08:33 AM   #101
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He's wishing the EU about grevious good luck because For the people who want to understand the back story about grevious they'll have to make him richer by buying the books.
Please explain how this is any different to the rest of EU.
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And something's gonna have to flesh out grevious the film Isn't called Star Wars Episode 3 Grevious Beginnings it is?
No, because the movie isn't about Greivous. He's a minor character, and as such if he isn't fleshed out in the movies then his background isn't significant enough.


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Old 10-16-2004, 08:40 AM   #102
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If Episode 4 was actualkly episode 7 and GL had another 3 episode's to play around with insteads of having to focus on bridging gaps He would have been fleshed out but becaiuse of him having set himself the task of briding continuity he can't focus on the clone wars which are hardly unimportant.


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Old 10-16-2004, 09:24 AM   #103
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?

No the story is as it is. It was supposed to be in 9 episodes but it was better in only 6. 9 would have felt stretched.


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Old 10-16-2004, 09:42 AM   #104
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The concept of storytelling means that a storyteller focusses on the important parts of the story. Yes, the Clone Wars are an important part of the Star Wars Galaxy, but are only a background to the story that takes place, and as such the Clone Wars themselves should not take the spotlight.

Every little detail of every minor character is also not important to the story. I'd like to, if I may, compare the Star Wars movies to the Indiana Jones movies, because while both are extremely popular stories created by George Lucas, they differ fundamentally when you look at their fan base. Star Wars is a science fiction, and as a general rule sci-fi fans seem to love the concept of an Expanded Universe, a supporting set of stories based on the originator story. Indiana Jones, on the other hand, is not a sci-fi, so the need to create an EU to please the mad consumers that are sci-fi fans is not evident.

Yet both Star Wars and Indiana Jones are still stories, both based in many regards on the same inspiration. So, how did Indy meet Short Round? How did he meet Sallah? What of Henry Jones Sr.'s adventures and his close friendship with Duncan? What ever happened to Marion and Willy? The fact is that no-one cares. They aren't important to the story, so they can be left up to the viewers imagination.

So it is science fiction fandom itself that is the problem. Studies on science fiction fans have found them to be massive consumers, collecting merchandise, comic books, and all manner of other geeky paraphernalia. As such, EU was born, not out of necessity to fill in the gaps in the story, but instead because it is a well known fact that sci-fi fans will consume what ever is given to them.

"Gaps" in the story and incomplete backgrounds do not need to be filled in. It is only because sci-fi fans are so willing to part with their money that the EU exists. If Indiana Jones had aliens in it, sci-fi fans would be all over it too, and no doubt an extensive Indiana Jones EU would exist to fill in all the backgrounds of the minor characters. EU is a result of the fandom, not of the story itself.

Well I seem to have ranted a bit, but evidently this is the thread to rant in.


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Old 10-19-2004, 02:36 AM   #105
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I think that we should rename this thread the "Rant all you want, we'll make more" thread. But I don't care isn't that why it was started, so that we would talk here?

Anyway, I think that you hit the nail on the proverbial head Vostok. The EU came from the parched lips of a dried up and empty world of starving Star Wars fans that desperately wanted more Han and Luke. George Lucas' imagination, marketing skills and the hunger for more Star Wars was/is a volatile combination when it comes to consumerism and capitalism. It is a beautiful thing, especially when your last name is Lucas and you have big curly hair.

Oh, one more thing. Viceroy, I mean no offense by this. The use of punctuation would be greatly appreciated please because it will make your posts easier to understand. Thank you.


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Old 10-19-2004, 05:08 AM   #106
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Originally posted by Admiral Vostok
Kryllith: Again, no the revelation is not assured, I'm just assuming in the tradition of good storytelling that there will be a revelation. Why would Yoda and Mace Windu act all shifty upon hearing Sifo-Dyas' name if there was to be no revelation in Revenge of the Sith?
I don't know, but then we don't know much about Sifo-Dyas. For all we know, he may have been one of the people to leave the Jedi like Dooku did (anyone have a list of the names?). What we do know for certain is that he was a Master (as indicated by Obiwan) and that he (or someone using his name) ordered the clones supposedly with the authority of the Jedi Council. Maybe he was a debilitative old man who never went anywhere, and it's just the use of the name that's causing the look, not anything to do with the actual person.

Quote:
Indeed the argument against Maul being unable to conceal his identity like Palpatine can is just an assumption of yours, there is no evidence for it and it doesn't necessarily hold true.
Yes, but nor is there any evidence supporting the theory that he CAN conceal his identity. As I, and at least one other person, indicated, Palpatine's concealment doesn't work as evidence because we never actively (at least, not unequivocally) see him using the Force in the presence of those who might detect it. Truth is, we can picked at each others assumptions for being assumptions, but it won't get us anywhere since there is, as yet, nothing that we can use to verify them.
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Old 10-19-2004, 08:02 AM   #107
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Kryllith I agree, there will be no way to confirm any of our speculations until the movie comes out and then one of us will come out and say "ha, I told you so, I was right!". Or, non of us will be right.

To give a half answer to your "list" of fallen Jedi, according to the EU, there were what was known as the lost 12 I believe. Twelve Jedi that left the order. I don't know much about them but I believe Dooku was one of them as was Aura Sing (spelling).


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Old 10-19-2004, 10:03 AM   #108
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They were the Lost Twenty. Supposedly the busts in the Jedi Archives are of the Lost Twenty, so Jedi can think about why these strange individuals left the Jedi Order. Obi-Wan was seen looking at Dooku's bust in the Jedi Archives scene. And I don't believe Aurra Sing was a Jedi. Personally I consider Aurra Sing to be the most hyped-up EU character ever; few characters with a single second of screen time in any Star Wars movies have had as much EU written about them. To me she's just a podrace spectator.

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Truth is, we can picked at each others assumptions for being assumptions, but it won't get us anywhere since there is, as yet, nothing that we can use to verify them.
Indeed. I always stated my assumptions as being so, I just mean that your assumptions don't necessarily disprove mine in the same way mine don't disprove yours.

And indeed this thread has become the "Rant about whatever Star Wars thing you want to" thread. And I like it.


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Old 10-19-2004, 10:22 AM   #109
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Careful I'm feeling Philosophical and that staement sounded awfully shallow to me.


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Old 10-19-2004, 10:56 AM   #110
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Which statement in particular? There are several in my post.

And I invite you to philosophise, Viceroy.

Just getting back to the whole Maul/Sifo-Dyas/Greivous argument: I'm 80% confident that Darth Maul is Sifo-Dyas, but probably only 40% confident that he is also in turn Greivous. So I believe the Maul/Sifo-Dyas connection (and would be surprised if it didn't turn out that way), and while it would be cool I don't believe as much that Maul/Sifo-Dyas is Greivous (I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't turn out that way).


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Old 10-20-2004, 07:30 PM   #111
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This is actually the longest thread we have now so keep this from dying.

Must...find..something...to discuss...


EDIT: Ok it's not the longest but still...


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Old 10-21-2004, 03:07 AM   #112
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I agree that Aura Sing was one of the most hyped up characters ever, and one of the ugliest chicks to come out of Star Wars too. I think her story goes something like her being trained by some Jedi named the Dark Woman but then she split and started to hunt the Jedi down and kept their light sabers as trophies. The story seems similar to Grievous in a way. I wonder if Grievous is Aura Sing?


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Old 10-21-2004, 05:13 AM   #113
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That would be pretty interesting, given the quick cut scene to Aura Sing in the podrace in TPM. Talk about developing a character who got little time in the movie (even though, granted, she was put in there just as a cameo).

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Old 10-21-2004, 07:03 AM   #114
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LOL, Grevious is Aurra Sing! The average veiwer of Star Wars would have no idea what was going on there...

And saying that Aurra Sing is one of the ugliest chicks in Star Wars means you're obviously forgetting the fat dancer in Jabba's palace... or Sy Snootles... or Gardulla the Hutt for that matter


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Old 10-21-2004, 08:20 AM   #115
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Vostok, I knew you would say that because I was thinking of them while I was typing that statement. Well, I didn't think of Gardulla.


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Old 10-21-2004, 09:35 AM   #116
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Quote:
Originally posted by Admiral Vostok
... or Gardulla the Hutt for that matter
Technically, Hutts really don't have sexes... they sorta reproduce asexually... and I really don't know why I still remember this...
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Old 10-21-2004, 10:13 AM   #117
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Sy SNootles was wearing lipstick in one edtition wasn't she?

She must be attractive by her species standards.

The Ugliest thing in Star wars has to be the emporer or as someone else called him Madame Monkey Eyes


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Old 10-21-2004, 10:36 AM   #118
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Quote:
Originally posted by StarWarsPhreak
Technically, Hutts really don't have sexes... they sorta reproduce asexually... and I really don't know why I still remember this...


Too much info.


But yeah monkey-eyed emperor was ugly but now it isn't really an issue anymore.


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Old 10-21-2004, 10:39 AM   #119
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Quote:
Originally posted by StarWarsPhreak
Technically, Hutts really don't have sexes... they sorta reproduce asexually... and I really don't know why I still remember this...
Yet another piece of EU contradicted by the prequel trilogy.

Though I should add that little nugget of info was created from the Han Solo Trilogy, which in my opinion is one of the better works of EU that captures the feeling of the movies relatively well.


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Old 10-21-2004, 11:11 AM   #120
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Actually Phreak They Switch sexes so when they want to have a child they become female and impregnate themselves and then afterwards they become Male or i can't remeber but it may be sexless.

I know madame Monkey Eyes had concubines something like a hundred of them so I'd hardly say he's something you'd WANT to look at.

Who would want to be in the same room as that vengeful wrteched person?

How is a hutts sex contradicted by anything? I don't see Obi-wan or Qui-Gon suddenly talking to Anakin about the Birds and The Bees of a Hutt do you?


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