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Old 10-03-2004, 10:20 AM   #1
Talor Star
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Question Did anikin bring balance to the force?

Because surely with all the stuff spouted by qui gon in ep I about him being amazing and stuff and that he will being balance to the force, bet he didnt think he would do this by destroying practically the whole light side of the force?

so did ankin furfil (spelt so badly i think ) the prohpecy or not? was him turning always predicited or did it just not go well?
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Old 10-03-2004, 11:48 AM   #2
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In my opinion, yes. He may have turned to the Dark Side, but he was the only one with enough strength and courage to defeat the Emperor. Once the Emperor was desrtoyed, the remnants of the Empire was wiped out thus bringing peace back to the galaxy... For the time being.
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Old 10-03-2004, 12:10 PM   #3
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lol you know it. with all the different eu stuff that happens, probaly would have been better to stick with the empire
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Old 10-03-2004, 12:33 PM   #4
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Yes. He eliminated all Jedi but 2 on each side.

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Old 10-03-2004, 06:01 PM   #5
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Yes he did because the emperor was so strong in the force it actually got weaker!When he died it returned to normal.


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Old 10-03-2004, 08:22 PM   #6
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We get the impression from the prequels (especially AOTC's directories commentary) that Palpatine is SO powerful in the Dark Side that he's really tipping the scales so to speak.

He's so powerful that the Jedi themselves are having their powers "clouded" and "diminished."

"The Darkside clouds everything" says Yoda, etc.

If only two Sith are as powerful (or indeed more powerful as we may learn) than 10,000 Jedi, that's pretty extreme.

Lucas seems to see the "Dark Side" as a distortion of the Force, a cancer almost. So by wiping it out (and also closing up the source of the evil that he supported in his own life) Anakin brings balance to the Force.

Now of course this plotline doesn't seem to have been worked out with the EU writers before Lucas made the prequels, so they can be excused somewhat for piling up the "Dark Force user of the week" stories in the 1990's.


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Old 10-04-2004, 12:33 AM   #7
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i used to think that 'bringing balance to the force' meant that vader destroyed all the jedi but two, so then there was 2 jedi and 2 sith.
but then we learnt that the darkside unbalances the force. so vader/anakin fulfilled the prophecy when he threw the emperor down the shaft.
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Old 10-04-2004, 05:59 AM   #8
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if balance refers to peace/tranquility, then anakin fulfills the prophecy at the end of RotJ.

if balance refers to quantity, then anakin fulfills the prophecy in RotS.


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Old 10-04-2004, 12:31 PM   #9
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hmm...

I'd never really thought about it, but i think he didn't.

I mean, he kills practicly all the Jedi, dark jedi are created and the Jedi are a tiny number of people who go train with Luke on Yavin 4 (correct me if i'm wrong).

How is that bringing balance?

Yes I know that the force is out of balance with the Emperor, but I don't belive that. Yoda can't see anything when he's trying to see the future in EP2 but in Ep5 Luke can see Han and Leia.

Also the council is wrong to train Anikin, wrong to let him go with Padame, wrong about who tried to kill Padame, so surly they are wrong about the prophecy.


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Old 10-04-2004, 02:27 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by guybroom
hmm...

I'd never really thought about it, but i think he didn't.

I mean, he kills practicly all the Jedi, dark jedi are created and the Jedi are a tiny number of people who go train with Luke on Yavin 4 (correct me if i'm wrong).

How is that bringing balance?

Yes I know that the force is out of balance with the Emperor, but I don't belive that. Yoda can't see anything when he's trying to see the future in EP2 but in Ep5 Luke can see Han and Leia.

Also the council is wrong to train Anikin, wrong to let him go with Padame, wrong about who tried to kill Padame, so surly they are wrong about the prophecy.
I don't claim to know what Lucas will do in Episode III (worst case scenario, he won't explain any of this, and leave it up to the writers of the novels to make something up). However, I do have a few guesses.

In ESB, the Emperor discovers Luke through a tremor in the Force. Likewise Vader has been obsessed with him since the Death Star was destroyed.

Vader probably had a "Hunch" based on the name Skywalker from intelligence on the Rebels and was seeking after him, since after all he said "the Force is strong with this one" having detected Luke using the Force as he flew down the Death Star trench.

Now on to the theorizing. In the original & SE editions of ESB the Emperor says "we have a new enemy, Luke Skywalker." So either through the Force or intelligence, or both, the Emperor knew about Luke. Vader's comments indicate that HE TOO has sensed Luke's power (see above). Since obviously (except to the audience seeing ESB for the first time) Luke SKYWALKER is related to Anakin SKYWALKER (Vader) this shows that he knows that Luke is his son already.

In the 2004 DVD edition, the Emperor says that Luke is Anakin's son (but doesn't name him as "Luke" he just says the offspring of Anakin Skywalker). Vader's response "How is that possible" can be taken two ways. 1) Vader is surprised that he has a son. He could have been searching for Luke (per the opening crawl) because he just wanted to find out the Force using guy who blew up the Death Star until then but not realized it was Luke SKYWALKER his son. Or Skywalker could be a common name and he just didn't put two and two together yet.

2) Vader knows he has a son and is playing dumb with Palpy. After all, there is the subplot of Vader wanting Luke to "join him" to overthrow the Emperor. By protecting Luke (Palpatine wanted Luke to die at first, Vader quickly suggests that they "turn" him instead), and playing dumb Vader is trying to hide his feelings from the Emperor. He wants to protect his son, but also to make himself more powerful and defeat his master.

The reason that Luke can sense Han and Leia when the Jedi in AOTC had trouble focusing could be because Han & Leia are bait in a TRAP set BY VADER to catch Luke. So instead of "dampening" (let's say) their light side powers, Vader (and/or Palpy) lets Luke see into the future so he will be drawn to Cloud City and be captured.

Another reason could be that since the Emperor and Vader thought all the Jedi were dead (Kenobi's being alive in ANH was a shock to Vader, and once he was dead that threat was passed; in the ROTJ novel Palpatine is surprised that Yoda was still alive all this time to help Luke, not mentioned in the movie of course).

If the Emperor doesn't think any Jedi are out there, he won't be actively dampening out their powers. Except for Luke, who would be "allowed" to sense things so they could communicate with him (as Vader does in ESB) or try to trap him (Lucas even explains that the reason Han is tortured is primarly because it sends out "tremors" into the Force for Luke to sense).

They could be wrong about the prophecy, true. But Lucas seems to think that the prophecy was fulfilled by Anakin, at least I draw that conclusion from his comments on the OT DVD's.

If you want my opinion, I think that basically is that Anakin is a pawn of the Force, a tool to flush out and destroy the Sith who are way too powerful and destructive. The Force sacrifices the Jedi in order to remove this threat to the galaxy. And there's still the hope of Luke and Leia rebuilding the Jedi Knights, perhaps with a bit more wisdom after learning their lesson.

Another way to view it is that Anakin really was meant to be a great hero, like Luke turned out to be, but he took the wrong path, and Palpatine actually almost prevented the prophecy from coming true by twisting Anakin to evil. Palpatine himself could have known about the prophecy and did it. Think of in the Bible how Satan tries to tempt Jesus to join him, but Jesus refuses. Except in this case, Anakin DOES join the evil one (Palpatine) and serves him. Luke gets in and brings out the last shred of goodness in Anakin, which allows him to fulfill his destiny and destroy the Emperor, even at the cost of his own life.


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Old 10-04-2004, 02:58 PM   #11
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I think that the "balance" refers to an equally powerful few dark lords and equally powerful number of jedi.

EX:

Two Dark lords whose powers are equal to 125 is more than 10,000 jedi whose powers are equal to 100.

Soo... when there are too many jedi, the force is embodied into an extremely powerful Dark Lord (Palpatine). If there are too many Dark Lords, an extremely powerful Jedi is born (Luke Skywalker). This imbalance goes on for ages and ages until, the two sides of the force are equal like the Ying and the Yang.

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Old 10-05-2004, 03:29 AM   #12
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That's cool, but, then doesn't that mean that Anakin achieved balance for about 5 minutes, and then unbalanced it again by dying?

Thus leaving no Dark Siders and two powerful (one untrained) Lightsiders... Luke & Leia.


Well, unless you go by the EU, then there were tons of Dark Side and Light Side users out there in the galaxy at the time and so no way to really know one way or the other. ; )

But then it's obvious that Lucas didn't tell the EU authors at large about his prequels with the "prophecy of the chosen one to bring balance to the force."


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Old 10-05-2004, 07:22 AM   #13
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When you said "flushed", Kurgan, I started thinking, maybe you're on to something there. Maybe it's like with Noah and the Ark kind of thing. The Force, or whatever, whiping the slait clean (eventually) to start over.

I don't know.

As you said, the Emperor was extremely powerfull if he could hide from the Jedi in plain view site (or atleast on the same planet).




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Old 10-05-2004, 08:39 AM   #14
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lets just chuck loads of random ideas in

yoda says in ep II that alot of the new jedi are growing arrogant, and maybe the whole bringing the force back into balance refers to when just luke is left, and he apreciats the force more. of corse their are loads of force sensitives but only one jedi (aparently cause I always wondered, to become a jedi knight, you have to take "the trials", which he seems to completely skip and announces himself to jabba as "luke skywalker jedi master" (i think)

but anyway I think that bringing the force into balance does mean, like other ppl said, starting afesh, with new powerful jedi who arent arrogant, like the jedi of old
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Old 10-05-2004, 02:42 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Talor Star
lets just chuck loads of random ideas in

yoda says in ep II that alot of the new jedi are growing arrogant, and maybe the whole bringing the force back into balance refers to when just luke is left, and he apreciats the force more. of corse their are loads of force sensitives but only one jedi (aparently cause I always wondered, to become a jedi knight, you have to take "the trials", which he seems to completely skip and announces himself to jabba as "luke skywalker jedi master" (i think)

but anyway I think that bringing the force into balance does mean, like other ppl said, starting afesh, with new powerful jedi who arent arrogant, like the jedi of old
I agree. As for the trials, I think it was an organized way to test their knowledge and ability. They arent necessary to become a Jedi. Luke was so knowlegable and the Force was so string with him, Yoda felt he was ready to be a Jedi.

I believe Anakin did bring balance back to the Force. He killed the Emporer, something no one else would or could possibly do at that time. He may have killed all the Jedi, but in the end the Force ended up stronger in Luke, and he will pass on his knowledge in a more powerful way.
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Old 10-06-2004, 07:45 PM   #16
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One could look at it this way: balance in the Force means an equal amount of Dark and Light side power. So if there are a small band of incredibly powerful Light-siders, a small band of incredibly powerful Dark-siders OR a lot of not-very-powerful Dark-siders would be needed to balance the Force.

There could be TONS of Dark side power, and TONS of Light side power (equal amounts of both) and the Force would be balanced. There could also be just a TINY amount of Dark side power, and just a TINY amount of Light side power would be needed to balance the Force.

The Dark side is not stronger than the Light, and nor is it the other way around. It all depends on everything (weird, huh?). Since the Force flows and binds everything together, everything is connected.

If you think about it, there really is no Dark or Light side. Those that affect the Force in a non-neutral way are what make the Dark and Light sides. For example, a rock is connected to the Force just as much as a Jedi or Sith Master. Rocks, though, interact with the Force in only a neutral way. They are not sentient, and therefore cannot choose to affect the Force in any other way (unless, of course, the spirit of a something else rests in the rock). But take a Jedi or Sith, for instance, they posses the ability to interact with the Force in a much more complex way. They can manipulate there interactions with it. The way they interact with the Force is what the Dark and Light sides are.


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Old 10-07-2004, 05:43 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Revlt Coranier
One could look at it this way: balance in the Force means an equal amount of Dark and Light side power. So if there are a small band of incredibly powerful Light-siders, a small band of incredibly powerful Dark-siders OR a lot of not-very-powerful Dark-siders would be needed to balance the Force.

There could be TONS of Dark side power, and TONS of Light side power (equal amounts of both) and the Force would be balanced. There could also be just a TINY amount of Dark side power, and just a TINY amount of Light side power would be needed to balance the Force.

The Dark side is not stronger than the Light,
Lucas directly contradicts this, answering the question of why Palpatine can remain undetected by the Jedi Council in the prequels (on the AOTC DVD commentary). He contradicts Yoda's statement to Luke in ESB by saying the Dark Side IS STRONGER. Whoa.

Now Lucas might change his mind but there you have it, from the man himself.

That said you could interpret it as well "well in this particular CASE the Dark Side happens to be stronger" (Palpatine + Dooku > 10,000 Jedi) or it is simply inherently stronger (notice how Maul, an apprentice Sith was a match for two Jedi, one of them a Master).

Palpatine could be a weird "super force user" who is way beyond the norm (like Anakin) or it could be that the Dark Side is simply more powerful when utilized by somebody like that. Perhaps the restrictions the Jedi put on their powers (which make good sense with their role) make them inherently weaker than the Sith.

This may sound antithetical to all that Star Wars is, but remember that in the EU NJO Novels we had that stuff about "there is no Dark or Light Side, it's how you use it." If we can swallow that "nonesense" coming from some liscensed writers, why can't we swallow this from Lucas, the creator of Star Wars?

Quote:
and nor is it the other way around. It all depends on everything (weird, huh?). Since the Force flows and binds everything together, everything is connected.

If you think about it, there really is no Dark or Light side. Those that affect the Force in a non-neutral way are what make the Dark and Light sides.
Lucas says there is a Dark and Light (Or "Good Side"... in the movies the term "Light Side" is never actually used, it's an EU term created for the sake of explanation, or simply the "Dark Side" is mentioned vs. the Force as the Dark Side being an anomaly). See comments above (or listen to the actual commentary).

Quote:
For example, a rock is connected to the Force just as much as a Jedi or Sith Master. Rocks, though, interact with the Force in only a neutral way.
According to the films, "Life creates it." A rock isn't alive. Though it may have been part of something that was once alive (like a fossil). The "energy field that binds the galaxy together" surrounds everything in the galaxy, including inanimate and non-living objects. Otherwise they couldn't Force push droids and metal boxes around.

On the other hand Qui Gon says that without midichlorians life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the Force. Is he saying that the Force can exist without life?

Yoda says that life "creates it, makes it grow." So it's like a Life Force (at least in Yoda's understanding). Then again, the Force may exist independantly, and simply grow stronger (life creates "more of the stuff") .


Quote:
They are not sentient, and therefore cannot choose to affect the Force in any other way (unless, of course, the spirit of a something else rests in the rock). But take a Jedi or Sith, for instance, they posses the ability to interact with the Force in a much more complex way. They can manipulate there interactions with it. The way they interact with the Force is what the Dark and Light sides are. [/B]
It's also interesting that only certain beings can use the Force, and it crosses "species lines" (Star Wars alien races). It seems to be random...

Anyway it's a fun topic, but it seems like Lucas has a certain idea of what the Force is and how it works, and that doesn't always gel with what the EU writers do.

Ultimately it could be the real message is that it's a BIG MYSTERY (like the Mysteries in life) and that everyone has an interpretation of it, and some might be closer to the truth than others, but ultimately we really don't know it all (even if we think we do).


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Old 10-07-2004, 08:27 AM   #18
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But you shouldn't always take it literally the way it's said in the EU. It may very well be that Vergere thinks that this is the way the Force is, and so strongly that she believes that this is how it is, not that it actually is that way.

Same with thousands of examples we could have listed in our own way of understanding stuff in our life, either thru a few years or centuries.

The earth being flat is a great example.




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Old 10-08-2004, 02:17 AM   #19
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The idea of "balance" does not necessarily imply a balance between light and dark. The light side is about maintaining order, and the dark side is about creating chaos. Therefore, the rise in strength of the Sith is what causes the force to be unbalanced. Mace says that if the prophesy is true, then Anakin is the only one who can bring the force back into balance. It does not say that he will. So I think him destroying the Jedi, was not a part of the prophesy. Anakin brings balance to the force by killing the Emperor and denouncing the dark side within himself.
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Old 10-08-2004, 04:48 PM   #20
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Damn, Star Wars is more complicated than math class....

I think that idea about the Light side being weaker because they limit themselves makes sense.

Jedi don't use the Force for ANYTHING unnecessary, eg. cleaning. Dark siders, on the other hand, aren't necessarily more in tune with the Force, they just utilize more of its potential.

That's basically what seperates Dark siders from Light siders; Dark siders use the Force for their own personal gain and profit, and Light siders only use it when necessary.


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Old 10-09-2004, 03:58 AM   #21
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lol I've started up a really intuleccual thread here ( but just destroyed it but spelling that wrong) but how about this

One Dark Sith Lord (Sidious) can stop 9000 jedi from using the force, as said by Windu to yoda in Ep II. Doesn't sound like balance to me. So, by killing the most powerful user of the force, then turning good himself (and then dying), Ankin brings the force back into balance (of corse not how the jedi wanted, what with them being killed and that) but thats how I see it
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Old 10-12-2004, 12:46 PM   #22
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I had it all thought out, but now I don't know what to think. Does anyone mind if I scream and bash my head on a table? *Screams and bashes his head on a table*. Thank you.

But I stilll think he didn't, even if he did turn to the light


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Old 10-12-2004, 01:21 PM   #23
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Anakin does not bring balance to the force, nor do i think he would have if he had stayed light. Nobody ever said he did, windu and wierd al said he could. although, he could have brought balance if he had been able to bring both light and dark to an equal understanding of eachother, where no one side is "better", in which case, all would be equal and balanced
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Old 10-12-2004, 06:14 PM   #24
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I think a lot of people have gotten the idea that balance means a balance between light and dark, there is no such reference. I believe that Anakin did in fact bring balance.
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Old 10-13-2004, 07:27 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shok_Tinoktin
I think a lot of people have gotten the idea that balance means a balance between light and dark, there is no such reference. I believe that Anakin did in fact bring balance.
however, i believe most now understand the new balance definition, as evidenced by some of the more recent posts.
would you expand on your idea that he brought balance to the force by killing the emperor and betraying the dark side?
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Old 10-13-2004, 10:56 AM   #26
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i disagree with your saying that we have come to a mutual definition of what balance is, but here goes none the less. Palpatine was very powerful, and used the dark side of the Force. That strong use of the dark side, was disrupting the will of the Force. Vader was also powerful enough to have this ill effect. When Vader left the dark side and killed Palpatine, there you go, Force balanced. btw, he did not betray the dark side, he returned to the light side.
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Old 10-13-2004, 10:58 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shok_Tinoktin
i disagree with your saying that we have come to a mutual definition of what balance is, but here goes none the less. Palpatine was very powerful, and used the dark side of the Force. That strong use of the dark side, was disrupting the will of the Force. Vader was also powerful enough to have this ill effect. When Vader left the dark side and killed Palpatine, there you go, Force balanced. btw, he did not betray the dark side, he returned to the light side.
same thing...

but how do we know the will of the force?
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Old 10-13-2004, 11:03 AM   #28
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midichlorians tell us
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Old 10-13-2004, 11:05 AM   #29
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whos to say the midichlorians wanted the galaxy the way it was under the rule of palpatine and vader, that that was how he brought balance, though it did not specify for how long, leaving it possible that luke then distrupted the balance
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Old 10-15-2004, 12:13 PM   #30
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if you are saying that mediclorians wanted the force to be bad, that is like saying that god wanted hitler to do what he did and we are in a state of termoil now because the nazis lost


IM NOT GOING TO BE ON THE FORUMS VERY OFTEN NOW! I MIGHT BE ON TIME TO TIME, BUT IVE BASICLY GIVEN UP THE FORUMS NOW!!!!

bye all

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Old 10-15-2004, 12:16 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by guybroom
if you are saying that mediclorians wanted the force to be bad, that is like saying that god wanted hitler to do what he did and we are in a state of termoil now because the nazis lost
not at all
what i am saying is that we doon't know if midichlorians are naturally light or dark, but we know God is naturally light. so we don't know what the midis really want, unless we ask

does anyone here speak midichlorian?
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Old 10-15-2004, 12:34 PM   #32
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I DO!!!!!!!

Think about it this way, midichlorians communicate to people, and those who have many and are well trained, are capable of understanding what they are saying. Those people include the Jedi and the Sith. Now lets see, which of those is gonna listen. The very basis of right and wrong for the Jedi, is what the midichlorians tell them is right and wrong. So we do know that the midichlorians wanted the world to have peace and justice.

Quote:
Originally posted by Lieutenant_kettch
whos to say the midichlorians wanted the galaxy the way it was under the rule of palpatine and vader
no one!

well, maybe you, but that wont convince anyone
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Old 10-15-2004, 12:53 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shok_Tinoktin
I DO!!!!!!!

Think about it this way, midichlorians communicate to people, and those who have many and are well trained, are capable of understanding what they are saying. Those people include the Jedi and the Sith. Now lets see, which of those is gonna listen. The very basis of right and wrong for the Jedi, is what the midichlorians tell them is right and wrong. So we do know that the midichlorians wanted the world to have peace and justice.



no one!

well, maybe you, but that wont convince anyone
true true, although i will say the galaxy was much more disciplined under the gentle touch of palpatine, as opposed to splintering under the tyrannic hand of the new republic
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Old 10-15-2004, 01:54 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lieutenant_kettch
the galaxy was much more disciplined under the gentle touch of palpatine, as opposed to splintering under the tyrannic hand of the new republic
wow, I don't think a sentence could ever make less sense than that.


“This body is not me. I am not caught in this body.
I am life without limit.”
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Old 10-15-2004, 01:58 PM   #35
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Originally posted by InsaneSith
wow, I don't think a sentence could ever make less sense than that.
you have to admit that the galaxy had more order under the empire than under the new republic
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Old 10-15-2004, 02:02 PM   #36
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So did Germany When Hitler was chancelor, compared to the after-war Germany.
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Old 10-15-2004, 02:04 PM   #37
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it is true, however, i do not believe in what hitler did, but i support palpatine and vader, though they could have done a better job
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Old 10-15-2004, 02:09 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lieutenant_kettch
it is true, however, i do not believe in what hitler did, but i support palpatine and vader, though they could have done a better job

whats the difference?
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Old 10-15-2004, 02:10 PM   #39
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palpatine and vader would let anyone live, so long as they didn't fight back, hitler oppressed certain peoples
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Old 10-15-2004, 02:10 PM   #40
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Yippie ! Let's kill millions of people and enlsave millions of others ! Let's also get rid of the 'inferior' races so we can have a 'pure' Galaxy ! Let's also kill everyone who is in disagreement with us ! Good thinking buddy !
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