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Old 10-08-2004, 03:38 PM   #1
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Is TPM the darkest film to date?

Maybe not, but think about it.

There is no other episode where more went exactly as the bad guy wanted it to. The way the movie was done kind of hided this, but when you really think about all the events, and who profits the most from them, it is not difficult to claim that everything that happened was exactly what Sidious planned.
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Old 10-08-2004, 04:37 PM   #2
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Basically true. Maul was very expendable in Sidious' eyes, as were the Neimodians. TPM was more of his campaign to weaken the Galactic Republic. However, I wouldn't say partially exposing himself or plans would be good would it? Unless of course, he meant it all along and wanted to insert a level of fear in having the galaxy know that they were no longer safe...


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Old 10-08-2004, 04:51 PM   #3
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Yes, as you mentioned, it did serve to instill fear into the Jedi, and does seem to cause problems to them. Also, if he was worried about secrets, why have Dooku tell them everything. He was trying to cause fear and uncertainty. And I think it goes beyond the fact that the Niemoidians were expendable, it was necessary to his support in the Senate that Naboo overcome the Trade Federation. That is why he sent them into the trap he knew the Gungan attack to be.


I also suspect that he was already working with Tyrannus, and thus wanted to send Maul to his death, but if I am wrong, than that was the only thing that may have gone the way of the good guys.
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Old 10-12-2004, 05:59 AM   #4
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Originally posted by Shok_Tinoktin
I also suspect that he was already working with Tyrannus, and thus wanted to send Maul to his death, but if I am wrong, than that was the only thing that may have gone the way of the good guys.
I've got another train of thought on the whole "only two, a Master and an Apprentice" quote from Yoda. I'm not knocking Yoda, who's obvisously well verse in Jedi/Sith history given all the years he's had to study, but maybe one of the reason the Jedi are having problems with the Darkside clouding their vision is because Sidious isn't following to old Sith code. Heck, for all we know the code might have been a myth made to fool the Jedi. Or Sidious might just be ignoring it, given that he's in a position to know what he's up against and maybe wants a little help.

To that end, the apprentices may not even know about each other. There's a huge galaxy to send them around on errands, so it's possible that both Maul and Tyrannus were serving as apprentice to Sidious at the same time yet knew nothing about each other (though Dooku may have learned about Maul after his death). Or maybe Dooku knew about Maul and one of the reasons he was so keen on turning Obiwan was because Maul was gone and they needed someone to fill the void. If they used Maul primarily for physical combat, it makes sense to recruit the person who bested him.

Point is, just because Yoda expressed the code of the Sith, it doesn't mean that the Sith are continued to follow it. Just a thought...
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Old 10-12-2004, 06:25 AM   #5
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Re: Is TPM the darkest film to date?

Quote:
Originally posted by Shok_Tinoktin

There is no other episode where more went exactly as the bad guy wanted it to.
Ep II went exaclty how palpatine wanted. He got his emergency powers, he got his war, he got his army, he created mistrust in the republic and the jedi and he started to dig his claws into Anakin.
TPM set the wheels in motion, but AOTC was the alley-oop for the slam-dunk that is ep III.
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Old 10-12-2004, 07:12 AM   #6
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however, everything went wrong in EPI, there was some good to come out of EPII
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Old 10-12-2004, 07:14 AM   #7
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Originally posted by rcsquirrel900
however, everything went wrong in EPI, there was some good to come out of EPII
like what?
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Old 10-12-2004, 07:15 AM   #8
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The union of Anakin and Padme
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Old 10-12-2004, 07:35 AM   #9
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oh yes, because we know that marriage is going to work out fine

without seeing ep III this is just speculation, but i think it's obvious that anakin's relationship with padme will play some part in his turning to the darkside.

of course the good thing to come from their relationship is the birth of luke and leia. but then the question is what will be the thing that pushes anakin over the edge? the death of padme maybe? in that case would anakin still have turned to the darkside if he hadn't fallen in love with padme?
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Old 10-12-2004, 07:42 AM   #10
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i speculate there will be bigger reasons for his turning than just Padme. And screw luke, leia is the big bonus, no leia=no jaina jacen anakin*gasp*
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Old 10-12-2004, 06:33 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kryllith
I've got another train of thought on the whole "only two, a Master and an Apprentice" quote from Yoda. I'm not knocking Yoda, who's obvisously well verse in Jedi/Sith history given all the years he's had to study, but maybe one of the reason the Jedi are having problems with the Darkside clouding their vision is because Sidious isn't following to old Sith code. Heck, for all we know the code might have been a myth made to fool the Jedi. Or Sidious might just be ignoring it, given that he's in a position to know what he's up against and maybe wants a little help.

To that end, the apprentices may not even know about each other. There's a huge galaxy to send them around on errands, so it's possible that both Maul and Tyrannus were serving as apprentice to Sidious at the same time yet knew nothing about each other (though Dooku may have learned about Maul after his death). Or maybe Dooku knew about Maul and one of the reasons he was so keen on turning Obiwan was because Maul was gone and they needed someone to fill the void. If they used Maul primarily for physical combat, it makes sense to recruit the person who bested him.

Point is, just because Yoda expressed the code of the Sith, it doesn't mean that the Sith are continued to follow it. Just a thought...

Never quite thought about it like that, but I think it is a very good point. According to EU sources, that seems very likely. The SW:CCG from Decipher said that his advisors were dark side force users, and lets not forget about Mara Jade. I always assumed these people to not actually be apprentices, and thus not be Sith, but rather just dark force users, but this is possibly a better explaination.
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Old 10-12-2004, 08:44 PM   #12
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The rules of the Sith were set down by Darth Bane, an ancient Sith lord. He said there could only be 2 Sith Lords at a time, a master lord and the apprentice lord. The way of the Sith is to destroy everyone in your path - including your master - in order to prove your power over everyone.

And if there were only 2 Sith at a time, there wouldn't be any huge wars like what happened.

Of course, that may be EU, it may be Lucas' backstory. I'm not sure.
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Old 10-12-2004, 08:54 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kain
The rules of the Sith were set down by Darth Bane, an ancient Sith lord. He said there could only be 2 Sith Lords at a time, a master lord and the apprentice lord. The way of the Sith is to destroy everyone in your path - including your master - in order to prove your power over everyone.

And if there were only 2 Sith at a time, there wouldn't be any huge wars like what happened.

Of course, that may be EU, it may be Lucas' backstory. I'm not sure.
I'm willing the grant that the Sith code is as stated, but whether said code has fallen in disuse since the defeat of the Sith is questionable. Sidious may be following the code, but he may not be. Knowing how much of a manipulator he is, I wouldn't put it past him to have several apprentices at once in hopes of forcing them to keep continuously strive against one another rather than focusing on overthrowing Sidious.

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Old 10-12-2004, 09:00 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kain
The rules of the Sith were set down by Darth Bane, an ancient Sith lord. He said there could only be 2 Sith Lords at a time, a master lord and the apprentice lord. The way of the Sith is to destroy everyone in your path - including your master - in order to prove your power over everyone.

And if there were only 2 Sith at a time, there wouldn't be any huge wars like what happened.

Of course, that may be EU, it may be Lucas' backstory. I'm not sure.
That was my opinion too, but it seems possible that Palpatine would defy this, and show his power by controlling other Sith, instead of destroying them. It seems that since Palpatine was overconfident (as shown in ROTJ), he assumed that he could keep multiple Sith under control, without it leading to war. As far as after his death, I doubt he really cared what became of the Sith.


Edit: Kryllith! You beat me to this!


Edit: One more thing I forgot to mention.


Quote:
Originally posted by Sivy
Ep II went exaclty how palpatine wanted. He got his emergency powers, he got his war, he got his army, he created mistrust in the republic and the jedi and he started to dig his claws into Anakin.
TPM set the wheels in motion, but AOTC was the alley-oop for the slam-dunk that is ep III.
I'm not sure what he had in mind for Jango, but that is a possible slip-up for Palpatine. I do not believe he had reached the end of his use, but it is always hard to say with Palpatine. A valid point none the less.

Last edited by Shok_Tinoktin; 10-12-2004 at 10:08 PM.
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Old 10-13-2004, 12:47 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shok_Tinoktin

I'm not sure what he had in mind for Jango, but that is a possible slip-up for Palpatine. I do not believe he had reached the end of his use, but it is always hard to say with Palpatine. A valid point none the less.
all Jango was for was to be the template of a clone army. thats all dooku wanted from him. it was the trade federation who paid him to have padme killed.
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Old 10-13-2004, 07:01 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sivy
all Jango was for was to be the template of a clone army. thats all dooku wanted from him. it was the trade federation who paid him to have padme killed.
do you not think it would be in palpatines best interest to not have Padme in the senate though?
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Old 10-13-2004, 07:15 AM   #17
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does she really matter to him? he's running the show, there's not much she could do to stop him.
also it was he who suggested anakin should protect her. why would he do that? maybe because he has forseen that his relationship to her will one of the things that will turn him to the darkside.
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Old 10-13-2004, 07:18 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sivy
does she really matter to him? he's running the show, there's not much she could do to stop him.
also it was he who suggested anakin should protect her. why would he do that? maybe because he has forseen that his relationship to her will one of the things that will turn him to the darkside.
it is possible that he foresaw that, but he needed a senator to help give him power over the "military", and i don't think padme would do that. Also, he would have easily knownthat anakin would take her off-planet to help protect her
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Old 10-13-2004, 07:18 AM   #19
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Old 10-13-2004, 07:28 AM   #20
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shaggy boy, you did bring up some good points, but i think my most recent argument stands to reason
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Old 10-13-2004, 07:38 AM   #21
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Originally posted by rcsquirrel900
it is possible that he foresaw that, but he needed a senator to help give him power over the "military", and i don't think padme would do that. Also, he would have easily known that anakin would take her off-planet to help protect her
and leave and the other senator from naboo in charge. who, by the way, is jar-jar. and at last we see the whole point of jar-jar's character. you see only a creature as dumb as jar-jar would give palpatine emergency powers to create army to save his friend, who is campaigning against a republic army. palpatine is a genius and has masterminded everything to perfection.

so, again, why would palpatine want padme dead when indirectly she would give him want he wants, via jar-jar.
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Old 10-13-2004, 08:04 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sivy
and leave and the other senator from naboo in charge. who, by the way, is jar-jar. and at last we see the whole point of jar-jar's character. you see only a creature as dumb as jar-jar would give palpatine emergency powers to create army to save his friend, who is campaigning against a republic army. palpatine is a genius and has masterminded everything to perfection.

so, again, why would palpatine want padme dead when indirectly she would give him want he wants, via jar-jar.
simply because it seems very likely that if padme were dead, then jar jar would still volunteer, and a dead padme with jar jar in office is better than an offworld padme with jar jar in office becuase a living padme could very easily come back, and do something about it
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Old 10-13-2004, 10:34 AM   #23
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i would say that if he did in fact want her dead, it would be after he already had his emergency powers. however, I think he wanted her alive for her relationship with ani.
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Old 10-14-2004, 08:31 AM   #24
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Originally posted by Shok_Tinoktin
i would say that if he did in fact want her dead, it would be after he already had his emergency powers. however, I think he wanted her alive for her relationship with ani.
so are you saying he kept her alive to ensure his reception of the emergency powers(though i would think he could foresee this happening anyway, or he wouldn't be so dang confident all the time)?
And her relationship with ani IMO clinched his turn to the dark side, so i think i can see how that would be extra incentive tokeep her around, so that he was positive he would get Vader.

But i want to know where the TF attack on Naboo fit in with palpatines plans(forgive me if this was already mentioned on this thread), but it seems as if he could have done fine without the war
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Old 10-14-2004, 08:47 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by rcsquirrel900
i want to know where the TF attack on Naboo fit in with palpatines plans(forgive me if this was already mentioned on this thread), but it seems as if he could have done fine without the war
this was to create a state of panic to where padme needed to challenge Chancellor Velorem(sp?), and ultimately vote for Palpatine to take the place of Chancellor through a vote of no confidence, this was step one into gaining supreme powers.


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Old 10-14-2004, 08:50 AM   #26
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this was to create a state of panic to where padme needed to challenge Chancellor Velorem(sp?), and ultimately vote for Palpatine to take the place of Chancellor through a vote of no confidence, this was step one into gaining supreme powers.
ahh yes, i can't believe i didn't realize that*hangs head in shame* but don't you think it was a little risky, i mean, what if padme got killed during the war? no padme=no challenge=no emergency powers, also no padme=no ani+padme, which may keep ani light
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Old 10-14-2004, 10:59 AM   #27
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RISKY!!!!!!!!!!!

Look what you are talking about. This is the guy who allowed the Rebels to know the location of the shield generator. Besides, I doubt he knew enough about Anakin at the time to care about Padme. At the time, she would merely be a martyr if she died. Besides, she was in no danger until after he got his challenge. As far as the emergency powers, I have no doubt that he would be able to find another way to get them. The motion passed, and Jar Jar was not stoned for suggesting it, I'm sure they could have found some one who would propose it.
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Old 10-14-2004, 11:32 AM   #28
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Originally posted by Lieutenant_kettch
ahh yes, i can't believe i didn't realize that*hangs head in shame* but don't you think it was a little risky, i mean, what if padme got killed during the war? no padme=no challenge=no emergency powers, also no padme=no ani+padme, which may keep ani light
Not all that risky actually. Given the amount of programming available, I imagine the TF probably had all the droids designed to capture rather than hurt/kill her (don't shoot her or shoot on stun only). After all, the TF had to answer to Sidious, and given his need for Amidala to oust Valorium I'm sure he'd make sure that the TF didn't harm her. At least, not until he was elected and granted emergency powers (and even in the latter case, she wasn't specifically necessary). Accidents can happen, but with both sides trying to keep her alive it's likely she'd be ok.

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Old 10-14-2004, 11:44 AM   #29
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Right, as was clearly seen in the movie. They did capture her, and the way that Palpatine made sure she would not be killed was to tell the TF that she needed to sign a treaty, hence they needed to capture her alive.
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Old 10-14-2004, 11:58 AM   #30
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wow, i really need to watch TPM again, i seem to be forgetting stuff
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Old 11-19-2004, 03:21 PM   #31
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I think the empire strikes back was the darkest movie


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Old 11-27-2004, 12:21 AM   #32
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Re: Is TPM the darkest film to date?

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Originally posted by Shok_Tinoktin
Maybe not, but think about it.

There is no other episode where more went exactly as the bad guy wanted it to. The way the movie was done kind of hided this, but when you really think about all the events, and who profits the most from them, it is not difficult to claim that everything that happened was exactly what Sidious planned.
Are you kiddy? When there is a film darker than another than it is AOTC!
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