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Old 10-10-2004, 02:28 PM   #1
Crazy_dog no.3
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Kids and Media Voilence

In the UK earlier this year there was a case of some teen stabbing another teen to death. Supposedly he was influenced by the game "Manhunt". IMO this was just a way for his parents to draw attention away from the fact that their kid was on drugs, etc.

Anyway what are your thoughts on voilence in movies/games making kids go voilent in real life?


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Old 10-10-2004, 04:02 PM   #2
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"Now they're talking about banning toy guns.... and they're gonna keep the ****ing real ones!!!" -George Carlin

Taking away the pretend violence will do nothing to stop violence. I don't care what your studies or surveys show. MOST of the horrible acts ever perpetrated by mankind was done well before the advent of film, television, computers, consoles, etc...This is just another chance for someone to make their millions in a class action law suit and hopefully infringe upon freedoms enjoyed by law abiding citizens like myself, rather than take any accountability for their sons actions themselves. My house will be empty by the time everyone has their day in court and decides for me what I'm allowed to play with.


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Old 10-10-2004, 04:21 PM   #3
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man, Parents blame video games, tv, and drugs. They're the ones to blame, not the media, not drugs. I do weed, I have yet to kill someone on some "hopped up drug frenzy"

Those that are to be held the most responsible are the parents and the kids themselves, after the parents teach the kids morals and values, and other standards, it is up to the kid to decide his/her actions.



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Old 10-10-2004, 04:25 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by InsaneSith

Great cartoon. "Guidebooks for damning yourself" That's great stuff. Well said I.S.


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Old 10-10-2004, 04:28 PM   #5
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I like violent games because I can do things I would never do in real life. Great way to vent frustrations.

I been playing violent games for years, lived through gangster rap and death metal. I've never killed anyone or went to jail.

I am 30 years old. My kids will have the same opportunity that I had growing up.
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Old 10-10-2004, 04:53 PM   #6
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Like some people have already said, it's not like violence was just some new thing that came around because of video games and television. People know what they are doing (at least, most people) and they actually decide to kill. Video games do not decide for them.


"Words are deeds." - Wittgenstein
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Old 10-10-2004, 09:47 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by Darth Groovy
I like violent games because I can do things I would never do in real life. Great way to vent frustrations.
Werd.

I quote now(to the best of my memory) Mr. Ron White:

There trying to ban these big screen shooter games. What they need to do, they don't need to ban them, they need to give them to the California State Police because they are some of the worst shots I have EVER seen. I was watching a hostage situation on CNN a few years back. The terrorist and the police had a shootout for an hour, finally the terrorist got frustrated and shot himself. And the police were on TV bitching about it. "He's got on body armor, He's got on body armor". I can see his head, shoot him in the ****ing head. You should give my son a shot. BANG! Hows that daddy? Nice shot Poont. Nobody worry, Poont got him...with his considerable skills. Anyone remember the (forgot the name) brothers from Ohio a few years back? They got into a shootout with the police at POINT.BLANK.RANGE. Nobody got hurt. I'd hate to be that guy the next morning talking to his chief. "And then what happened?" "Well, they came out the White Suburban, at which point I drew out my semi-automatic sidearm" "And the what happened?" "They left". A kid in Detroit fired 8 bullets, hit 9 people. Those police from Ohio shot 43 shots, didn't even hit the ****ing Suburban. Don't ban the shooter games, drop the police off at the mall with a roll of quarters.
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Old 10-10-2004, 10:55 PM   #8
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Originally posted by Kain
Don't ban the shooter games, drop the police off at the mall with a roll of quarters.
LMAO. I gotta see that guy.


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Old 10-11-2004, 12:46 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by InsaneSith
Those that are to be held the most responsible are the parents and the kids themselves, after the parents teach the kids morals and values, and other standards, it is up to the kid to decide his/her actions.

this sound to me like "choosing to be gay".

as a parent you dont have influence on your children all the time, they learn MANY things from other children and so on. it's somehow like "do what others do". and children DONT CHOOSE to do so, it's how learning works. you cant say "hey kid, DONT LEARN FROM OTHERS!"

surely i can speak or teach about morals and how weapons are bad and dont kill and stuff.
but it's kind of pointless if other kids play around with playtoy guns. especially if they are 5. and whilst there may be a small argument for a handy cowboy pistol or a pirate sword, i dont think it has to be an automatic weapon like an uzi or m16. and damnit, sticks look like guns too, why buy crappy plastic sh*t for 50 bucks?
and where is the point in letting 6 year old kids "release there aggressions" in 3d-shooters? sh*t, there are other, more constructive ways to let it out.

sure there is the point where parents are very responsible for what they teach their children what they want to do with their 'freetime', but while your kid is in the kindergarten or school you pretty have no 'control' of what's influencing your kid. as a parent you're the one who has to deal with it.

as a parent you also have to deal with things that the media hypes til it hurts, although it's plain stupid and a complete waste of time and money.
i mean i dont really get behind the idea of the "shopping spree barbie" except it's some message like "buy new clothes and stuff every day"

so many things are prechewed nowadays, children are hardly "pushed" to a point where they have to use their fantasy or own mind. everything makes noises and moves automatically, children just need to push buttons, lean back and watch the show. it's like a downgraded tv, place your children in front of it and that's it. enjoy yourself now until the batteries are empty. i mean there is not even something to disconver, like it works or something. it's just "dingdingding-ratratrat-chtschtschst-nernerner-woowoowoo-rigrigrig-clingclingcling-plopplopplop stick-someting-in-here-and-it-comes-out-there"-ing all the time. entertaining? maybe. at least that's what it submits to you and your child because it laughs and stuff. but it will be boring quickly and something new has to come. the result: tons of toys and only two are used. and your child has learned nothing except there has to be something new "every day"

active toys make passive children and passive toys make active children.

of course it's the parents choice what they give their children to play, assumed they control everything that grandma buys too.

also, i am surely not against computergames and movies and whatever, but there is more behind games than 3d shooters and there is more behind computers than games, word and windows and inserting the newest graphics card.
and there is more behind media/movie violence than "harmlessness" and less than "it's making criminals". it shows violence and everyone finds it cool "how the ****** got blown up" .. the rest is not predictable.

and if i hear an 3 year old boy saying "what the **** is wrong with you, are you stupid, you *******?" i know something went wrong.


are parents responsible? yes, all of them are.
are the parents responsible alone? no.
is the media responsible too? yes.
is society responsible too? yes.

are children responsible? nope (at least not until they've reached a certain maturity). how are they supposed to know what we dont teach and SHOW them?

WE as adults are the children's guidance. but we aren't doing very well, i tell you.


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Old 10-11-2004, 12:55 AM   #10
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ray, that's not what I was saying, I was saying the blame goes on the parents and the kid. The kid ultimately makes the choice to pull the trigger, or impale the person with the knife, whether they know it's right or wrong.
People dictate their own actions, a game can't make a kid kill someone, the kid's own mind does. The kid decides to do it.
Teen violence isn't a genetic thing, noone is genetically wired to shoot up a school, kill a friend, kill their parents. The kid makes this choice, they think "i'm gonna kill this person" for whatever reason.

I don't understand your comparison to that choose to be gay crap (which I know is not a choice).

don't get me wrong, I know people, especially kids make mistakes, but I'm not gonna give them the excuse that they didn't know any better, or that it's the fault of some game company, especially when the game is targeted for an older audience.

like the comic says, they're for entertainment, not re-enactment. When I tried to re-enact things I saw in movies when I was little, I was punished, I learned what was responsible and what wasn't. Parents need to teach their kids about reality and the difference between movies and real life. Once they do that it's up to the kid.


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Old 10-11-2004, 02:52 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by InsaneSith
I was saying the blame goes on the parents and the kid. The kid ultimately makes the choice to pull the trigger, or impale the person with the knife, whether they know it's right or wrong.
i never said it wouldn't be the kids choice. but who is actually killing? the bullet, the gun, the kid, the kids parents, the parents parents?

and i said that i can do anything to teach my child the right values, but what does it mean if society/media are "preaching" violence? why is it the childs fault if it is doing what it sees everywhere? it's the childs choice, true, but hey, it's normality.

Quote:
People dictate their own actions, a game can't make a kid kill someone, the kid's own mind does. The kid decides to do it.
that's right. but every decision is beeing made out of knowledge and experience. the knowledge or "how-to" is no problem, nowadays, thanks to the media and what/whoever. the experience or "when-to" lacks or in other terms comes from sources which aren't real life. i see a possible problem here if certain thing don't run "normal". it's never the game(s) or movies(s) alone it's always a sum up of tons of variables. and i am sure there is the choice of a killing spree in everyone, even if he only plays tetris and saw arielle.

Quote:
Teen violence isn't a genetic thing, noone is genetically wired to shoot up a school, kill a friend, kill their parents. The kid makes this choice, they think "i'm gonna kill this person" for whatever reason.
yes, it's surely not hardwired. just like "stressmanagement". violence is not a solution. but tell that to a kid who is beaten by the parents or treatened by the others at school? it's also possible that you have the best parents at home, but are punished at school every day.
it's always the kids decision, but every decision has reasons.

Quote:
I don't understand your comparison to that choose to be gay crap (which I know is not a choice).
mmhmmhh.. i am sure i tried to say something.. but what? :P


Quote:
don't get me wrong, I know people, especially kids make mistakes, but I'm not gonna give them the excuse that they didn't know any better, or that it's the fault of some game company, especially when the game is targeted for an older audience.
so if a 3 year old finds the gun under the parents bed and shoots the mailman, is it the kids fault?

also getting an adult rated game is never a mistake, at least not for the kid. kids always want to have what adults have, they imitate the adults behavior and style of speech, whatever. that's how it works, i dont know if you're a father, but i learned that within the last 1 and a half years from my daughter.. you cannot do anything in front of your kid without that it will try to do it too. of couse only with it's understanding of the world. that goes from using the phone, dancing, filling the dishwasher, throwing stuff in the trash and my favorite: "plugging in" a tampon (into the belly button of course.. ;D)
of course as a parent you have to set limits and say you cant have this and dont do this, but y'know.. children and curiosity. if it wouldn't be like that we wouldn't have faked the moonlandingsbeen on the moon.

Quote:
like the comic says, they're for entertainment, not re-enactment. When I tried to re-enact things I saw in movies when I was little, I was punished, I learned what was responsible and what wasn't. Parents need to teach their kids about reality and the difference between movies and real life. Once they do that it's up to the kid.
firstly it's not like you can say to a kid "that's reality and this is not". that won't work. it needs a certain age/maturity for a kid to even have the ability to grasp the difference of fantasy and reality. and even then it's not done with a fingersnip. and why talk about fantasy and reality? sure movies and games are not "real" but look around you. people get killed for nothing. everywhere. and that is REAL REALITY.

again, the childrens do it, the "world" has tought it.


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Old 10-11-2004, 03:02 AM   #12
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as a parent you dont have influence on your children all the time, they learn MANY things from other children and so on. it's somehow like "do what others do". and children DONT CHOOSE to do so, it's how learning works. you cant say "hey kid, DONT LEARN FROM OTHERS!"
My parents taught me enough self-respect so that I didn't feel an automatic need to do what other kids did, or do what they (or adults) told me to do. This saved me from engaging in schoolyard thuggery, and no doubt protected me from perverts at the same time.

A child is a blank slate. What the child learns before even starting school is the most important and character-defining of knowledge. Thus the parents should take care to write upon that slate neatly.

I give my parents credit for teaching me that I HAD a choice, but on the other hand, I give myself credit for exercising that choice responsibly.


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Old 10-11-2004, 06:01 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by RayJones
i never said it wouldn't be the kids choice. but who is actually killing? the bullet, the gun, the kid, the kids parents, the parents parents?
It is the kid that ultimately decides whether it will happen or not. It's silly to blame the grandparents for the decision and you know it.
Quote:
Originally posted by RayJones

and i said that i can do anything to teach my child the right values, but what does it mean if society/media are "preaching" violence? why is it the childs fault if it is doing what it sees everywhere? it's the childs choice, true, but hey, it's normality.
Then if you're worried about that, you don't have to expose them to such a culture until they are able to think and stand up for themselves. It is possible, you know.

Quote:
Originally posted by RayJones

that's right. but every decision is beeing made out of knowledge and experience. the knowledge or "how-to" is no problem, nowadays, thanks to the media and what/whoever. the experience or "when-to" lacks or in other terms comes from sources which aren't real life. i see a possible problem here if certain thing don't run "normal". it's never the game(s) or movies(s) alone it's always a sum up of tons of variables. and i am sure there is the choice of a killing spree in everyone, even if he only plays tetris and saw arielle.
I knew things weren't always real on the TV 10 years (I'm 17) ago at least. I'm not into self-delusion, and I never have been. I don't blame the media for violence. To me, it sounds like just a way to prevent responsibility from resting where it should.

Quote:
Originally posted by RayJones

yes, it's surely not hardwired. just like "stressmanagement". violence is not a solution. but tell that to a kid who is beaten by the parents or treatened by the others at school? it's also possible that you have the best parents at home, but are punished at school every day.
it's always the kids decision, but every decision has reasons.
The kid decides what kind of activity he will demonstrate at school, just as he decides whether to use violence.

Quote:
Originally posted by RayJones

so if a 3 year old finds the gun under the parents bed and shoots the mailman, is it the kids fault?
3 year olds are not capable of understanding why they should not play with a gun or to have knowledge of gun safety. Therefore the parents shouldn't have left it on the counter or whereever, seeing as a baby like that would never be able to get it out of a locked container. In this case it is the parent's responsibility that failed.
Quote:
Originally posted by RayJones

also getting an adult rated game is never a mistake, at least not for the kid. kids always want to have what adults have, they imitate the adults behavior and style of speech, whatever. that's how it works, i dont know if you're a father, but i learned that within the last 1 and a half years from my daughter.. you cannot do anything in front of your kid without that it will try to do it too. of couse only with it's understanding of the world. that goes from using the phone, dancing, filling the dishwasher, throwing stuff in the trash and my favorite: "plugging in" a tampon (into the belly button of course.. ;D)
of course as a parent you have to set limits and say you cant have this and dont do this, but y'know.. children and curiosity. if it wouldn't be like that we wouldn't have faked the moonlandingsbeen on the moon.
So you can set limits, but you can't really? Hmmm... I've never found that to be the case with my parents. They're pretty strict on my videogames and movies. Actually, to this day I have one M rated game (The Longest Journey) and it is rated that way for language, not violence. Note my age above. And R rated movies? I almost never want to see one. Most movies like that are just senseless violence, and I don't enjoy that sort of mind-numbing lack of plot. PG-13 is much better.

Quote:
Originally posted by RayJones
Firstly it's not like you can say to a kid "that's reality and this is not". that won't work. it needs a certain age/maturity for a kid to even have the ability to grasp the difference of fantasy and reality. and even then it's not done with a fingersnip. and why talk about fantasy and reality? sure movies and games are not "real" but look around you. people get killed for nothing. everywhere. and that is REAL REALITY.
Actually, you can say that. My parents showed me, I've haven't felt the compulsion against my will (seeing as you say I would not be responsible) to kill, destroy, maim or blow up anyone. It's amazing how that happens when the parents do their job and teach their children to differentiate between fiction and real life. No one makes my decisions for me; I accept responsibility for my actions.


"Words are deeds." - Wittgenstein
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Old 10-11-2004, 06:26 AM   #14
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I'd thought we were past this after GTA, but this brought it all up again.

The actual facts of the case bore no relation to those reported in the UK press.
1 - the game belonged to the VICTIM, not the killer as they reported
2 - the police said the game had nothing to do with the case
3 - the killer was stealing money to pay back a drugs debt.

Of course, the british press has never let that stand in the way of a good witchhunt.

Whatever the pros and cons of (a) this game and
(b) the unproven argument that such games encorage violence among kids, this game had nothing to do with the crime, and what's more it was clearly classified as being over 18 only and in the possesion of a minor who's parents appeared to know all about it.

Putting aside any arguments about affecting kids for now, the computer game industry is a worldwide billion dollar industry, far larger than the movie industry, which no longer is aimed solely at kids.
My current generation of 20-30 year olds grew up with computer games, and the under 18 market is now one of the SMALLEST sectors of the gaming market.
Much like films, games now need to appeal to a wide range of different age groups, and can no longer all be aimed at kiddies.
Assuming that games are clearly labeled with age ranges (which they are in most countries, including the UK) then they should be trteated no differently to other forms of art (films, books, music etc..).

Unfortunately the press and politicians and a few "parents groups" still have it in their head that games are for kids, so any game that has adult themes is automatically thought of as corrupting kids, even if it isn't even supposed to be played by kids.

Its like that case of that comic store owner who had an adult manga comic in a brown wrapper, in the adult section of his store and sold it to an adult police officer. He was sent to jail because at the trial, although he called in comic book experts, the prosecution basically said "forget all that, we all know comic books are for kids so this guy must be corrupting kids".
That same attitude seems to apply to games.

(there may be some arguments about enforcement, or companies marketing adult games at kids, but those aren't anything to do with whether the games should exist)

-----------------------------------------

As for the violent kids argument, it seems to me that there could be 3 ways a game could affect kids:

(a) Copycat actions
(b) Bloodlust
(b) Desensitisation

(a) - Although i'm sure little kids who have played a shooter probably run around going "bang bang", i remember doing exactly the same thing after watching james bond movies when i was a kid. Heck, you could argue (and people have) that power rangers, tom & jerry and TMNT cause the same form of copycat violence. If you are a little kid who copies such actions, then you are too young to really differentiate between the extreme violence of manhunt ant the comic violence of a cartoon. Infact you are probably a lot more liekly to copy the cartoon. Heck, Kids back in the day used to shoot each other playing cowboys & indians.
As long as kids have no access to actual weapons, this seems to me to be a harmless and maybe even imagination building part of growing up that doesn't last very much about 10 or so.
But kids under that age should have reasonable supervision, as they don't often connect consequences with actions. But his is just as true of things like playing with knives, running with scissors and pushing your sister off a bike as it is with copying computer games. Not Guilty

(b) Some studies have proved, and i have found it to be the case, that people (especially kids) are more hyper and have higher heart rates etc after playing action games. However i can get the same response from anything i get emotionally caught up in (movies, stirring music, footie on telly) and anything that requires quick actions (sport, tabletennis, pong) it is a very short lived response that fades after a few minutes. It isn't really anything special to computer games (except that you play them from "your" viewpoint) and applies to a lot of other passtimes that arent singled out. Unless you go out, get in arguement and it pushes you over the edge a few minutes after you finish the game, i can't see the problem. And if that happens then you obviously had a short fuse that could have been pushed over the edge by many things.

(c) This is the only area i think they may have a point. But again it isn't exclusive to games. They do seem to be getting more violent, and games we found shocking a while back aren't anymore. But the same is true of movies, tv, music, books and so on. I guess you can argue the whole "art reflecting society, or society reflecting art" idea, but i think they are bound up together. It is partly due to that fact we are less sheltered in today's world. We can see the real violence in the world around us, the press shows us lots it would'nt have shown decades ago, and the world is much bigger and faster and it is harder to make an impact than it was.
------------------------------------------------
On the one hand they are all upset that games are making all out kids into lazy fat couch potatoes, on the other hand they worry they are making them into psycho serial killers. Luckilly we will find them easy to outrun
-------------------------------------------------
I may be mad, but i seem to notice that the violence in the world is mostly in the poorest parts... i somehow find it unlikely that these are the places that have the most playstation 2s. With all the hand wringing and headlines about the decline of society, western society still has far less violence than many poorer part of the world. Watch City of God for a (mostly true) depiction of kids casually killing each other by the dozen... and i doubt any of them have even seen a playstation.



Playing: Link to the Past, Astroboy, Kario Kart, Mario World (Micro) KOTOR 2: Sith Lords (Xbox) Morrowind (PC)

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Old 10-11-2004, 06:53 AM   #15
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On the one hand they are all upset that games are making all out kids into lazy fat couch potatoes, on the other hand they worry they are making them into psycho serial killers. Luckilly we will find them easy to outrun
In a detailed and comprehensive post, this is hands down the best paragraph I've read all week.


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Old 10-12-2004, 07:29 AM   #16
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Quote:
originally posted by spider al

In a detailed and comprehensive post, this is hands down the best paragraph I've read all week.
Agreed!

I dont think voilence in games effect kids! there was violence long before games were invented!


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Old 10-12-2004, 08:15 AM   #17
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