lfnetwork.com mark read register faq members calendar

Thread: What did Vader plan for Luke?
Thread Tools Display Modes
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Old 10-13-2004, 05:07 PM   #1
Shok_Tinoktin
Ray's Gun Nut
 
Shok_Tinoktin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: The good end of Ray's Gun, or the bad end of an AA gun
Posts: 1,144
What did Vader plan for Luke?

In ESB, Vader tells Luke to join him, so they could rule the galaxy as father and son. Was this a tactic by Vader, in hopes of getting Luke to serve the Emperor, or did Vader actually want to challenge Palpatine's reign, and needed Luke's help? IMO, he actually wanted to join forces with his son, and overthrow Palpatine.


A semi-related question, did Luke drop in an attempt to committ suicide, and assure that he never served the Empire; or did he just give himself to the will of the force, and trust that he could safely escape? On this, I have to say he trusted the force, but I am uncertain.


Insight, anyone.

Last edited by Shok_Tinoktin; 10-13-2004 at 06:24 PM.
Shok_Tinoktin is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-13-2004, 05:21 PM   #2
coupes.
★★★★★
 
coupes.'s Avatar
 
Status: Moderator
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Québec
Posts: 2,437
10 year veteran! LFN Staff Member 
The Emperor wanted Luke to kill Vader so he could have a new apprentice, with more potential, since Vader was mostly machine.

Vader wanted Luke to join him so they could kill the Emperor, thus, making him the Master and Leader of the Empire.
coupes. is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-13-2004, 07:05 PM   #3
Lieutenant_kettch
Forumite
 
Lieutenant_kettch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: An Interceptor Cockpit
Posts: 650
Vader wanted to become ruler, and kill the emperor,the emperor wanted luke, and kill vader

luke is crazy, possibly suicidal, i don't think he was trained enough to be willing to give himself to the force like that
Lieutenant_kettch is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-14-2004, 12:06 AM   #4
Lynk Former
internet hate machine
 
Lynk Former's Avatar
 
Status: Administrator
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Australia
Posts: 18,979
10 year veteran! The Walking Carpets Guild Officer Imperialist Meatbags Guild Officer LF Jester 
Quote:
Originally posted by rcsquirrel900
luke is crazy, possibly suicidal, i don't think he was trained enough to be willing to give himself to the force like that
Ever heard of the expression "I'd rather die than join you" or many other variations along that line?

Lynk Former is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-14-2004, 12:26 AM   #5
Shok_Tinoktin
Ray's Gun Nut
 
Shok_Tinoktin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: The good end of Ray's Gun, or the bad end of an AA gun
Posts: 1,144
Quote:
Originally posted by Lynk Former
Ever heard of the expression "I'd rather die than join you" or many other variations along that line?
It is possible to say that he had resigned himself to death, but I think his expression looked more like he was letting the force guide him. I doubt he knew specifically what would happen to him, but I think he knew that it was the right thing to do, and that this knowledge came from the force.
Shok_Tinoktin is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-14-2004, 07:05 AM   #6
Prime
Am I a truck or robot?
 
Prime's Avatar
 
Status: Super Moderator
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Cybertron
Posts: 12,352
Current Game: Skyrim, Macross PS2
10 year veteran! LF Jester Veteran Modder Helpful! 
Quote:
Originally posted by .:CoupeS:.
The Emperor wanted Luke to kill Vader so he could have a new apprentice, with more potential, since Vader was mostly machine.

Vader wanted Luke to join him so they could kill the Emperor, thus, making him the Master and Leader of the Empire.
That is the way of the Sith.

Prime is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-14-2004, 08:33 AM   #7
ET Warrior
PhD in horribleness
 
ET Warrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Evil League of Evil
Posts: 9,405
LFN Staff Member Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally posted by rcsquirrel900
luke is crazy, possibly suicidal, i don't think he was trained enough to be willing to give himself to the force like that
Not entirely sure at what point you're talking about. Are you talking about when he let himself be captured on Endor? Because when he confronted Vader on Endor it was fairly obvious that he believed in his own ability to turn Vader back to the light and Vader wouldn't even take him to the emperor.



ET Warrior is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-14-2004, 08:39 AM   #8
Lieutenant_kettch
Forumite
 
Lieutenant_kettch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: An Interceptor Cockpit
Posts: 650
Quote:
Originally posted by ET Warrior
Not entirely sure at what point you're talking about. Are you talking about when he let himself be captured on Endor? Because when he confronted Vader on Endor it was fairly obvious that he believed in his own ability to turn Vader back to the light and Vader wouldn't even take him to the emperor.
No, i was talking about his leap from cloud city. about whether it was a suicide leap(as in, rather die than join you) or if he trusted the force to bring him to safely

i didn't think he had enough experience or training in the force to trust the force to save him if he left, so i was thinking it was more along the lines of:i'd rather die than join you
Lieutenant_kettch is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-14-2004, 08:42 AM   #9
Sivy
coming soon
 
Sivy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 7,314
Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally posted by Prime
That is the way of the Sith.
exactly,
all sith lords at some point challenge their masters in order to take their place.
vader wanted to take over from palpatine and have luke as his new apprentice.
Sivy is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-14-2004, 08:47 AM   #10
Lieutenant_kettch
Forumite
 
Lieutenant_kettch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: An Interceptor Cockpit
Posts: 650
Quote:
Originally posted by Sivy
exactly,
all sith lords at some point challenge their masters in order to take their place.
vader wanted to take over from palpatine and have luke as his new apprentice.
That could be one of the reasons Maul was so easily tossed aside, palpatine didn't want to be challenged. However, the thing that doesn't make sense is why palpatine wanted Vader to sway Luke. It seems obvious that if the three of them were together, vader and luke would have a stronger bon than palpy and either of them, so they would remove him from power. Also, palpatine should have known that if Luke didn't come to the dark side, he was obviously strong enough to make vader betray the dark side, so why not go about it some other way?
Lieutenant_kettch is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-14-2004, 08:56 AM   #11
ET Warrior
PhD in horribleness
 
ET Warrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Evil League of Evil
Posts: 9,405
LFN Staff Member Forum Veteran 
I dont think the Emperor believed that Vader would ever be redeemed back to the lightside, and he knew he was deffinitely powerful enough to kill Luke if luke didn't join.

He wanted Vader to sway luke so Luke would KILL Vader, and then The emperor would get Luke as his apprentice.



ET Warrior is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-14-2004, 09:18 AM   #12
Lieutenant_kettch
Forumite
 
Lieutenant_kettch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: An Interceptor Cockpit
Posts: 650
but i would think it more likely that luke keep vader alive and kill palpatine, since he was more connected to his father
Lieutenant_kettch is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-14-2004, 10:12 AM   #13
Kurgan
Headhunter
 
Kurgan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1997
Location: The Dawn of Time
Posts: 18,322
LFN Staff Member 10 year veteran! 
Quote:
Originally posted by rcsquirrel900
That could be one of the reasons Maul was so easily tossed aside, palpatine didn't want to be challenged. However, the thing that doesn't make sense is why palpatine wanted Vader to sway Luke. It seems obvious that if the three of them were together, vader and luke would have a stronger bon than palpy and either of them, so they would remove him from power. Also, palpatine should have known that if Luke didn't come to the dark side, he was obviously strong enough to make vader betray the dark side, so why not go about it some other way?
Vader, despite some treasonous intentions, was fairly loyal to the Emperor. He resists Luke in ROTJ by saying "I MUST Obey my Master!" as if they have a strong bond. After all they've been killing folks together and having power for over 20 years!

I think Vader is weak, but he sees he can be strong enough to beat the Emperor if he has Luke loyal to him.

The Emperor sees that he can get Luke as a fresh new apprentice to mould to his whims.

The trick is that Luke has no real relation to the Emperor. If anything he hates him because it was the Emperor who had the Death Stars built and is in charge of this whol oppressive regime (the civil war, everything).

Vader on the other hand has the wild card "I'm your father." Luke's Father is the central focus of his life basically, so Vader can reel him in with that emotional bomb.

Luke hates Vader until he realizes that this man he hated is his father. But this could possibly be used to get him on the side of the Sith, then they have only to corrupt him. The Emperor, being more powerful than Vader in the Force (at least in his mind) probably thinks he can sway Luke away from Vader, and Vader will just sit by and watch it happen, because he is loyal.


Remember, the Emperor has been around. Sure his overconfidence is his weakness, but he's done a lot with his will. He's taken over the Republic and transformed it into the Empire. He's had at least two other apprentices before Anakin. He's corrupted two "good" Jedi to his ways. He's got every right to be an egomaniac and think things will keep going his way.

The part about getting Luke to kill Vader I always thought was something that came up after once Palpy sensed that Vader was against him (note the scene "I wonder if your feelings on this matter are clear, Lord Vader..." that's when I think he starts to suspect that Vader is plotting something).

While Lucas does say that the reason Vader isn't as powerful as he could be is because of his injuries troubles me a bit. I always thought that the state of your physical body was irrelevant to your use of the Force. But, the Flanneled One may have a point. Yoda needs to use up a lot of "Force" to make himself from a hobbling old dude to a flipping acrobatic monkey, so perhaps its the same way with Vader. Even if his cybernetic parts are superhuman in strength, he still needs to overcome their limitations for his own powers.

Another factor that might make Vader weaker than he could be the "conflict" (the good in him) that makes his dark side powers incomplete (without perfect hatred or something). But I still think the main reason Palpatine substitutes Luke for Vader is because of Vader's treason.

While having two apprentices at once might cause a rivalry (especially if Vader thinks of Luke as his son whom HE has control over), Palpatine wouldn't have to get rid of one of them right away, but probably sooner or later given the nature of the Sith and his desire to remain in control.


Download JK2 maps for JA Server|BOOT CAMP!|Strategic Academy|
(JA Server: 108.178.55.189:29070)


"The Concussion Rifle is the weapon of a Jedi Knight Player, an elegant weapon, from a more civilized community." - Kyle Katarn
Kurgan is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-14-2004, 10:46 AM   #14
Shok_Tinoktin
Ray's Gun Nut
 
Shok_Tinoktin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: The good end of Ray's Gun, or the bad end of an AA gun
Posts: 1,144
I don't think that the Emperor ever wanted (or expected for that matter) to have Vader and Luke as apprentices at the same time. As for why he would want Luke instead of Vader, I have two ideas. The first, is that he turned them against each other, so he could have whichever one was stronger. The other possibility, is that the Emperor knew that having Luke fighting against the Rebellion, would be as (if not more) demoralizing to them, as it was for the Jedi to have Anakin fight against them.


But this brings up another good question, did Palpatine want Luke to know that Vader was his father?
Shok_Tinoktin is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-14-2004, 12:10 PM   #15
Lieutenant_kettch
Forumite
 
Lieutenant_kettch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: An Interceptor Cockpit
Posts: 650
i think so, because that would do one of two things
a) anger luke even more that his father betrayed him
b) use that bond to bring luke over to the dark side

i just don't think palpatine could foresee vaders betrayal at the hands of luke because of that bond
Lieutenant_kettch is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-15-2004, 03:44 AM   #16
Sivy
coming soon
 
Sivy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 7,314
Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan

While Lucas does say that the reason Vader isn't as powerful as he could be is because of his injuries troubles me a bit. I always thought that the state of your physical body was irrelevant to your use of the Force. But, the Flanneled One may have a point. Yoda needs to use up a lot of "Force" to make himself from a hobbling old dude to a flipping acrobatic monkey, so perhaps its the same way with Vader. Even if his cybernetic parts are superhuman in strength, he still needs to overcome their limitations for his own powers.


the force flows through a jedi's (and sith's) body. but vader has mostly mechanical limbs, so then the force wouldn't be able to flow through them as its not living tissue. i do think that limits the force powers he can use.
also his suit must limit them as well, for insistence he obviously can’t use lightning. he can’t move very fast or do anything that will quicken his breathing too much.
Sivy is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Go Back   LucasForums > Network > Star Wars > Original Trilogy > What did Vader plan for Luke?

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:23 PM.

LFNetwork, LLC ©2002-2011 - All rights reserved.
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.