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Old 10-31-2004, 01:49 PM   #1
Monkey Mania
 
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Thumbs up My Main Complaints.

First of all, awesome mod! This is the best mod for Jedi Academy and it truely blows me away. Great work guys!

Here are some things that need improvement:

I. Darkness
-1. The weapons are too dark, it makes the weapon look ugly.
-2. Some areas are too dark. I had to turn my screen brightness up to see.
II. Cutscenes
-1. The conversations could have been done with the in-game engine not CG.
-2. The mouths don't move?
-3. The compression quality is poor.
-4. I can barely see the stars during the ship cutscenes.
III. Music
-1. A little too much reverb.
-2. Sometimes starts abruptly when changing.
IV. Sound
-1. Some sounds are missing on the imperial officers.
V. Dialogue
-1. Newly recorded voices inconsistant with the originals(esp. Kyle).
VI. Gameplay
-1. Punching is too weak.
-2. No first person punching?

I know this is only a demo, but I want to be sure these things are fixed in the final version.
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Old 10-31-2004, 05:25 PM   #2
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Re: My Main Complaints.

Im lazy, so in the quotes I write my thoughts

Quote:
Originally posted by Monkey Mania
First of all, awesome mod! This is the best mod for Jedi Academy and it truely blows me away. Great work guys!

Here are some things that need improvement:

I. Darkness
-1. The weapons are too dark, it makes the weapon look ugly. (Suprosa did not think this)
-2. Some areas are too dark. I had to turn my screen brightness up to see. (Suprosa did not think this, nor ever have this problem once)
II. Cutscenes
-1. The conversations could have been done with the in-game engine not CG. (Suprosa did not think this, i understand this takes huge scripting skills, I find it competent and id be fine with it if this is how the final mod will be)
-2. The mouths don't move? (This did actually bother me somewhat)
-3. The compression quality is poor.
-4. I can barely see the stars during the ship cutscenes. (Suprosa did not have this problem at all)
III. Music
-1. A little too much reverb. (Suprosa never had this problem)
-2. Sometimes starts abruptly when changing. (Suprosa never had this problem)
IV. Sound
-1. Some sounds are missing on the imperial officers. (I never noticed, this may be intentional anyway)
V. Dialogue
-1. Newly recorded voices inconsistant with the originals(esp. Kyle). (OK I was extremely bothered with the voice acting myself, kyle especially )
VI. Gameplay
-1. Punching is too weak. (I never tried them out :P)
-2. No first person punching? (Yeah no fun :P, probably the same problem as thermals I guess)


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Old 10-31-2004, 06:01 PM   #3
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ditto

I cuncur suprosa (this is what plokoon9 thinks)

I must add that the first person punching was missing (which I would like), and I would like it to be somewhat more effective.

I understand the problems with the cutscenes, and its OK. hell i can't do anyhing nearly as nice as that. besides all of the characters are vantrilaquists? (spelled wrong?...) that stuff isn't easy to do I'm sure, and it must also take time.

keep up the good work team, just don't quit your day jobs.


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Old 10-31-2004, 08:13 PM   #4
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Re: My Main Complaints.

My replies to your "complaints":

I. Darkness
-1. I agree with this somewhat, but only in the case of the blaster rifle.
-2. Yes, without the field light from DF, some of the areas were quite sparsely lit.
II. Cutscenes
-1. Darth_Linux said in another thread that this would take untold tons of scripting and they currently have no one to do the job.
-2. This issue was stated in the readme.
-3. Agreed
-4. I don't really remember about this one, but it might have been because of the low quality.
III. Music
-1. Did not notice this.
-2. This sounds vaguely familiar.
IV. Sound
-1. Did not notice this, but I suppose it is true.
V. Dialogue
-1. I agree, when I first heard the recorded Kyle voice in Talay I was thinking, "What the hell? Who is that?" I understand the problem presented by trying to imitate and record the voice, but I also do not know why the voice was put in the mod in the first place; It doesn't really seem necessary.
VI. Gameplay
-1. I never really used the fists, although when I did, it seemed like either I was not hitting the enemy or the attack did too little damage...in other words, I agree.
-2. I would have to say this is the same (and created by the) problem as first person lightsaber in JA. Actually, if you cheated and got fists in JA, you would incontrovertibly have to use them in third person; it is an engine problem, not something with the mod.


Okay, for brevity's sake:

Personal Computers > Consoles.
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Old 11-01-2004, 04:53 AM   #5
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I agree with Monkey Mania about the reverb on the music - a good thing to do when mixing music is to have slightly different reverb on the different sections of the orchestra, e.g. the strings should be most dry, as they are closest - then add a little more on woodwinds, then brass, and finally most on the percussion as it is placed behind the rest of the orchestra - doing this will also prevent a 'boxed' sound that comes with applying the same reverb (and equal amount) on all sections.

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Old 11-01-2004, 07:56 PM   #6
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Quote:
-1. The weapons are too dark, it makes the weapon look ugly.
I know what you mean, this was a last minute change. Its simple really, black doesnt show up black ingame, because of the compressed jpg format it turns a rather greenish/blackish color which I think it would have looked worse.

Quote:
-2. No first person punching? (Yeah no fun :P, probably the same problem as thermals I guess)
We had frist person punching pretty much all along but was taken out because it required certain assets be removed which in turn affected other things. I would have left it in but it wasnt up to me.


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Old 11-02-2004, 04:48 AM   #7
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Does anyone else have speed problems with the first cutscene?

When the Dark Troopers are being put in their tubes and launched, the scene runs about 200% faster than the original...and looks rediculous.


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Old 11-02-2004, 11:38 AM   #8
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i have finish to play the mod and it's a fantastic work, one of the best i have ever played.

but nothing is perfect...
here, personal suggestions to made the mod better :

1 - bad color for the sky of level 2 talay, this magenta color is ugly!
try a grey green dirty (more dramatic), or a grey blue ( more moon light). i think that the problem is the color saturation and the relationship whith the city colors (which is good , don't change the grey of the city).
Actually, the color of the sky kill the light of the city.

2 - me and a lot of person have sound problems during the cutscenes, why ? their soundcard isn't good ? the mod team perhaps could find an other solution for the sound ?

3 - i think the conversation between mon mothma and kyle could be more animated . actually, the characters doesn't move enough, and the camera doesn't move enough. its boring. and if you have no sound, it's worst.

i critic but this mod is really excellent , keep the good work for the final release , thank you all the team.
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Old 11-02-2004, 11:42 AM   #9
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when the sky color is alright , its good to keep it for the water, as you made for the demo.
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Old 11-02-2004, 02:48 PM   #10
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I don't think that the speed is a problem with the cutscene playback, it was actually animated at a very unrealistic speed,...


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Old 11-02-2004, 07:00 PM   #11
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I have a few suggestions too.

1. Lose the new voice recordings of Kyle. They weren't in the original game so you don't need them and they sound really awful (no offense to the guy who recorded them).
2. Only use the ROQs for the exterior shots of the ships etc. not for conversations. The fact that there's no lipsync looks really dodgy. Besides which the ROQs don't have a very high quality.
3. Put the first person fists back in. I know you took them out due to compatibility issues but I'm sure we'd all appreciate them in all the same.
4. If its at all possible give the thermal detonators an animation. I know the original JK2 and JA ones don't have one but it just looks stupid to have this great model that is completely static (by which I mean it doesn't move at all).

Other than those few things, excellent work. It really is impossible to describe in words how good this is.
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Old 11-02-2004, 09:50 PM   #12
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I just wanted to comment on two things.

1) First is the Talay cutscene ROQ. The ROQ cutscene is the most difficult thing to make changes to and we had to take what Chrustec had at the time. We didn't provide the models nessesary to do mouth animations or a lot of body movement and he didn't have time to convert/redo them for the demo. In regards to intercutting the cutscene with exterior ROQ files and interior in-game, that would be a scripting nightmare in a LOT of different areas. First getting the music to transition smoothly through that would be etremely difficult (especailly if I don't know how long a rendered scene will run until it is finished). The original sound files would need to be timed up (as well as resampled, cleaned up) with the music for the ingame scenes which would be a scripting nightmare of trial and error (and might not line up regardless on slower machines). Chrustec was given a completed, continuous sound file (recorded from a Gravis Ultrasound and an SC-88) and what you are hearing is recorded straight from the game. He mixed in a few more elements (like the ties).

As for the pixelated effects it was very difficult to render such a large animation into a ROQ. Normally you need to render each frame into an individual Targa format (.TGA) file with sequential numbers and have a dos program render those in sequence and it'll add a 16 Bit 22Khz sound .wav track to that. I believe we ended up having to use an AVI to ROQ converter which basically means going from one compressed format to another highly compressed format because there were so many frames. So there were more pixalation artifacts than might normally be present (ROQ files are 512x512, BTW). The final product should look a lot nicer as far as pixel quality (artifacts), general flow, and body/mouth animations. I think chrustec did an amazing job considering what was given to him for the cutscene and that he was moving cities going to a new job at the time.

2) As for the music reverb, yes I know about using less reverb on instruments in the front the orchestra and more at the rear and I did that with this music release. The amount of reverb used was a trade off considering I was trying to get generic, all-purpose instruments to blend together. I was using elements from all four Sound Canvas patchsets (which are eight to twelve years old! Yikes!) and played with the reverb to see what amount would get them to blend together the best without sounding too washed out. I'm going to release some excerpts of what the original soundtrack sounded like on various sound cards/synths and you'll be able to compare the difference side by side with the current version.

The music for Dark Forces was written using the Roland Sound Canvas (SC-55 patchset; the de facto standard for general MIDI soundtracks in games a the time) and I wanted to stay true to the balance, timbre, and articuations of that mix while at the same time giving it a facelift. I think that embodies the spirit of the mod as a whole and I believe I accomplished what I set out to do. What I was able to accomplish with these old 8-12 year old patchsets is testimony to how versitile they were to begin with; especially considering that a Trumpet patch for instance was supposed to be used for orchestral, solo, jazz, what-have-you and could fill whatever role you threw at it. A lot of people missed out on high quality MIDI soundtracks of the early to mid 90's (especially Lucasarts titles) and I'm glad I am in a position to let people get a notion of what it sounded like by improving on the tunes while at the same time staying true to the original.

I could do a dissertation on MIDI game soundtracks so I'll stop now before everyone falls asleep. :-)

One final note, I'm not done with the music and am going to continue improving it right up to the final release. We only released a demo and everything is still subject to change. We appreciate your constructive feedback and take it into consideration. At the same time keep in mind a lot of very smart and talented die-hard Dark Forces fans donated hundreds of hours of their time to make this demo possible and many of the flaws in the demo are not under our control due to either lack of time, personnel/expertise, or especially game engine/computer issues. Moving to the MP engine and working with the OJP should allow us to accomplish our goals with out as much compromising.

Thanks for your feedback! Your support means a lot to us!

Last edited by Benevolence; 11-04-2004 at 10:55 AM.
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Old 11-04-2004, 12:53 AM   #13
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thank you , benevolence for your responses .

- about the cutscene, technical problems and big work, .... ok, i understand. A great job has been done already.

- what about the sky and river color ? i repeat that a grey green, very dirty, could be better for achieve talay atmosphere , trying different luminosity and saturations.
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Old 11-04-2004, 10:26 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by gana
thank you , benevolence for your responses .

- about the cutscene, technical problems and big work, .... ok, i understand. A great job has been done already.

- what about the sky and river color ? i repeat that a grey green, very dirty, could be better for achieve talay atmosphere , trying different luminosity and saturations.
the original sky in Talay had lots of hints of purple in it. I took the exact RGB value from the original and made our skies out of that. I then darkened them up a bit to look less bright. Part of the atmosphere we wanted was that strange night sky that wasn't like Earth, but defiately from "somewhere else". We won't be changing the sky - but we may change the color of the lights that get turned on when you switch on the generator


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Old 11-05-2004, 04:57 AM   #15
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One thing Im really missing is nightvision.
Either that, or a light

I "feel" that you stuffed the levels full of stuff, of eyecandy, its too much, you were a bit to eager to show your skills

also, I think that some areas in the Sewers level, could be underwater, with the monster swimming after you. There were no underwater parts in DarkForces because there could not be any, but now you have the power to add a underwater/sewer element, with the Dianogas swimming after you.
Naturally you swim slower, and can only use fists underwater.
You have changed so much, so you can change this too

But great job overall. I cant wai to play the finished version... this year ?


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Old 11-06-2004, 07:44 PM   #16
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- I miss the dark sludge room in Level 3 that had alot of dianogas. It was right before you go up the elevator to the landing bay.

+ I like how the levels take longer to beat than the originals.

- What happened to the mouse droid? The AI was already made for it.

+ I like the redesigned power generator in Level 2.

- The order in Level 3 is screwed up, all you need to do is go to door 1 and 2 and not all 4 like the original.

- Ack! The lightning gets cut off in Level 2. Destroys the atmosphere.

- Level 2 is too hard to navigate.

- Like the original, the long tunnel in Level 3 is annoying
and boring.

- The broken door in Level 2 was passable in the original, now it forces you to find the secret which shoudn't be a secret anymore.
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Old 11-07-2004, 01:00 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sono I "feel" that you stuffed the levels full of stuff, of eyecandy, its too much, you were a bit to eager to show your skills
This "compliment" goes to the mappers

I "feel" that if there were less eyecandy you would complain that there was not enough of it,
and the levels would be empty and boring...

We do what we can, as good as we can, even with the limitations we had to face.
But it will never be 100% perfect nor good enough for everyone

Quote:
Originally posted by Sono But great job overall. I cant wai to play the finished version... this year ?
Thanks

About finishing date... read this:


Dark Forces MOD for Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy
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DFMOD Demo for JA released !!!
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Old 11-07-2004, 08:11 AM   #18
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Funny that - the first demo was criticised for not taking advantage of the engine; and with this one, we are criticised for taking advantage of the engine too much!



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Old 11-07-2004, 09:30 AM   #19
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Heh, TheOne, we are not really criticised for taking too much advantage of the JA engine... just for adding too much stuff.

Perhaps Sono could explain which kind of eyecandy is too much?


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Old 11-21-2004, 09:39 AM   #20
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I agree with not liking the additional, different-voiced Kyle dialog. (Especially when it repeats over and over.) I'd suggest that additional dialog, if truly necessary, be created by editing phrases from the original game, or even from other games in the DF series -- even though they're all different actors, at least it would be Kyle voices we're used to.

If additional Jan dialog is necessary, the same actress was also in Rebel Assault II, and a long time ago I tried to make a collection of samples that conceivably could have been used in add-on DF levels. I also tried reediting Kyle's dialog to be more applicable to a broad range of add-on missions, although there wasn't as much source material to work with and it's probably redundant for the purpose of this mod.

My Kyle & Jan Voice VOCs

On the other hand, the team already has a decent Jan voice actress and can get away with her not matching the original perfectly because most of the original Jan dialog in DF was filtered through the comlink. Perhaps in the final mod she should re-record Jan's line when she's rescued from Jabba's ship, since that is Jan's only unfiltered line in the original game.

Off-topic trivia - Previous Kyle and Jan actors:
List of Kyles
List of Jans
Did not like Rino Romano in Mysteries of the Sith, BTW -- he's a good actor but it was bad casting because he made Kyle sound much younger than before.


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Old 11-21-2004, 12:05 PM   #21
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About the punching...In Dark Forces you could kill a stormie in two punches, or one if you looked straight up and punched them into the ceiling, works like a charm, and looks hilarious.


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Old 11-22-2004, 04:25 PM   #22
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Another thing i've noticed, but is a very minor issue. I remember that in the original DF, the rotating holograms were sets of dots, whereas these are modeled. I actually think that this is one of the times that it actually does not look better than the original. Maybe you could make it a more detailed set of dots...or you could just tell me to bug off, as this is a fairly minor detail (like the moffs sunglasses)


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Old 11-22-2004, 06:06 PM   #23
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lol the death star hologram, now that I think of it, did bother me that it wasnt dots...


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Old 11-23-2004, 02:59 AM   #24
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I think it was discussed after the first demo that Attack of the Clones overrode Dark Forces as a canon source for how the Death Star plans look as a hologram. The compromise was to have it be green.


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Old 11-23-2004, 05:38 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Magic_Al`s DF
I think it was discussed after the first demo that Attack of the Clones overrode Dark Forces as a canon source for how the Death Star plans look as a hologram. The compromise was to have it be green.
Yeah, that was the argument in favour of how it appears in the demo(s). But then again, I was watching A New Hope on DVD and noticed that the briefing scene has a hologram made of dots, just like the one in the original DF.

I'm sure it's something we can tinker with again down the line...



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Old 11-23-2004, 09:26 AM   #26
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Well, it could be said that maybe the appearence of the hologram depends on the projector. Maybe the rebel projectors use a different format than the imperial ones.


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Old 11-23-2004, 02:10 PM   #27
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I'd say the version from ANH and DF overrides the prequel one, as they are older, and the new one was probably made that way just to be cool graphics (after all, wasnt a good chunk of that movie showing off their amazing CG skills)

besides, the one showing in the rebel projector in ANH is the one that you supposedly steal in DF...so there ya go. AoTC, older file, ANH same one as in DF.


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Old 11-24-2004, 03:39 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by razorace
Well, it could be said that maybe the appearence of the hologram depends on the projector. Maybe the rebel projectors use a different format than the imperial ones.


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Old 11-24-2004, 06:13 AM   #29
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wrong movie.


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Old 11-24-2004, 09:43 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by ewok mercenary
MonCal's like better rez on their holo projectors?


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Old 11-26-2004, 01:51 PM   #31
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Touching on the cutscenes thing: Why not use the original game cutscenes (I'm not sure its possible, but if it is, why not?).

Not to say I don't like the cutscenes, I'm just not totally satisfied with them. My biggest grip is that the Ark Hammer looks kinda screwey.

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Old 11-26-2004, 05:59 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by CaptainSkye
Touching on the cutscenes thing: Why not use the original game cutscenes (I'm not sure its possible, but if it is, why not?).

Not to say I don't like the cutscenes, I'm just not totally satisfied with them. My biggest grip is that the Ark Hammer looks kinda screwey.
there is no way to use the original cutscenes. they are ran by code from the original dark.exe which we do not have the sources for. they use a number of still images and animate them together in a clever way through the use of "delta" files. Even if we did get it to work, the original artwork for them is in 320x200 - they would look extrememly jaggedy in the JA game, and then we get hassles about how poor it looks and that we should have redone the cutscenes from scratch . . .


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Old 11-26-2004, 06:05 PM   #33
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Ah, I expected as much. Thats too bad, but the good thing is that your cutscenes looks pretty nice. Regardless, keep up the good work!

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Old 11-27-2004, 02:48 PM   #34
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Bring on the real-time cutscenes!!!
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