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Old 12-16-2004, 12:24 AM   #81
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A turret push is a fairly common T2 strat. Not used as often as the good old trooper rush, but it happens. The idea is to get a turret overlooking the enemy's carbon or nova centre so their workers can't get near it, then they have to waste res building a new centre somwehere else or building more mounties to knock out the turret.

IMO it's a perfectly legitimate strat and adds an extra dimension to trooper wars. If you limit the areas where players can build it limits the strats they can carry out and risks making the game more boring. I think the RTS genre seems to be moving away from the hardcore gamers and targetting the more mainstream, casual gamers. This is way they're getting simpler: less res management, or none at all, limits on booming and forward building. It all makes it easier for players of low ability who can't or don't want to improve, but it gets boring if all you have to do is sit back and watch the eye candy (I suspect BFME is one of those kind of games).
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Old 12-16-2004, 12:46 AM   #82
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BFME is targeted at casual gamers but so was generals and I feel that the new RA game will be the same. Small eco managment and they also drifted away from scissors paper rock style.


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Old 12-16-2004, 05:06 AM   #83
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I just use the terms CC and power cores to make an example. It doesn't exactly have to be a CC and a power core.


The RTS market has become a niche market. The casual gamer is now looking for a much more cinematic feel when he plays a game and the RTS genre doesn't give that as much as an RPG or an FPS can.

This is what Mark Birnbaum, reviewer at IGN says in one of his review of an RTS:

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The real time strategy genre has seemingly reached its plateau. Save the rare intuitive masterpiece, most of today's RTS games are uninspired, generic, and sometimes just plain sloppy.
I feel just like him.


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Old 12-16-2004, 05:21 AM   #84
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Well they still do have a limited version of the rock paper scissor style with Pikeman countering Cavalary and crossbowmen countering the infantry and the cavalry countering the crossbowman.


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Old 12-16-2004, 12:56 PM   #85
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The counters in BFME are not that apparent it takes alot of pikemen to take out charging horseback. Over the course of the first few months EA will be making alot of balance patches.


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Old 12-16-2004, 01:19 PM   #86
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I've said it elsewhere not nessacerily here but I predicted that EA would have to patch this game every day to make it live up to expectations.

Of course the lack of directional armour will have to be addressed.


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Old 12-16-2004, 05:08 PM   #87
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luke - I never said the tactic was a waste of time and resources, I said that it hurts gameplay and realism. Realism, because we would NEVER see anything like that in a 'real' Star Wars battle, and it hurts gameplay because then, as i mentioned before, you just have buildings doing the fighting when it should be the units.

All the borders system does is prevent tactics like that, and get you to expand to increase your ability to gather resources. Your borders would automatically be extended by research and by building CC's or the equivalent near the edge of your borders.


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Old 12-16-2004, 09:29 PM   #88
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Agree with Windu completely units do the fighting not the buildings. But in the case of WC3 Night Elves we can make an exception.


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Old 12-17-2004, 02:58 AM   #89
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For those of us who havent played WC3, what is a Night Elf?


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Old 12-17-2004, 08:39 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally posted by Darth Windu
luke - I never said the tactic was a waste of time and resources, I said that it hurts gameplay and realism. Realism, because we would NEVER see anything like that in a 'real' Star Wars battle, and it hurts gameplay because then, as i mentioned before, you just have buildings doing the fighting when it should be the units.
Arguing against a brick wall would be easier...

Never did you claim it was a waste of time and ressource, I claimed that. I think nobody disagrees with the fact that it should be units who dot he fighting.

Quote:
Originally posted by Darth Windu
All the borders system does is prevent tactics like that, and get you to expand to increase your ability to gather resources. Your borders would automatically be extended by research and by building CC's or the equivalent near the edge of your borders.
You still haven't refuted against my power core/CC buildable area a single time. Why would that not work?

The border system makes sense in a civ building game like RoN. However, in a game where the basis is to whack the opponent, borders become somewhat of an oddity.
Look at all of the modern RTS that has the same goal, which is build up and go beat the crap out of the opponent. Which has a border system? Warhammer:40K Dawn of War does not, C&C does not, WC3 does not, AoM does not, BFME does not(though with this plot system it is arguable), etc. Yet none of them has tons of people whining about turret pushes.


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Old 12-17-2004, 11:14 AM   #91
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I get the impression that DoW is balanced so that bolter turret pushes are a waste of resources, but I'll have to look into it more when I get the full version as I've only played the demo so far. In any case, the SWGB style turret push is redundant because there are no workers gathering resources. otoh capturing control points is a huge part of the game, and you can secure them with a special kind of turret which can only be built there, so in that sense turret pushes are an integral part of the game.
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Old 12-17-2004, 06:33 PM   #92
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luke - do you even know how borders work? In RoN, building cities or forts extends your borders further, as does a certain type of research. Therefore, basically you are saying that you want the borders system as well.


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Old 12-17-2004, 08:09 PM   #93
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People don't whine about turrent pushes because its a strategy everyone has to except eventually. I agree that I've never heard of a war being won by turrenting. I don't agree with borders either so a better solution has to be somewhere.

BTW not all C&C games can build all over the map red alert 2 as an example.


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Old 12-18-2004, 01:14 AM   #94
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But what im saying is that turret pushes shouldnt be a viable tactic. As i said before, they really hurt realism, and they arent good for gameplay either. As an aside, at the very least removing this tactic would make the game more unique compared to most other RTS' out there.


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Old 12-18-2004, 01:40 AM   #95
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though Windyu the system your proposing does nothing for Gameplay or Realism so there's no point in putting it in.

If it doesn't do anything for gameplay or realism then it shouldn't be in. Ever.


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Old 12-18-2004, 02:25 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally posted by Darth Windu
luke - do you even know how borders work? In RoN, building cities or forts extends your borders further, as does a certain type of research. Therefore, basically you are saying that you want the borders system as well.
I know how the hell borders work. I'm not retarted and I've played RoN.
The borders get extented very fast and on a large map with a normal amount of players for it, territory is filled up quickly.

Again, you've not refuted as to why a power core/CC less restrictive system would not work.
I compare it as a mix of the Protoss Pylons system and the Zerg Creep.
The Zerg Hatchery(CC) would have an certain creeped area where you could build basic units until you can build more Creep Colonies(power cores) which extend the creep for you. The difference here is I want the power cores to work like the Protoss Pylon because the enemy can build in a Pylon powered area.
The difference here would be power cores and CC not giving a huge amount of territory. In StarCraft it was almost impossible for the Zerg to do the turret push tactic.
They had to build a hatchery in front of someone's base and start building creep colonies very slowly into the enemy's base. The process took a lot of time and, unless your enemy is totally retarded, was not at all a viable tactic. Defending a position like that was too costly for nothing.
You could also link up many creep colonies from your starting base all the way up to the enemy's base but that also is not a viable strategy.
My system would differ from yours because:
a) No invisible line telling you who's territory it is.
b) No restriction on a strategy but hampering its use.
c) More realistic in the context.


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Old 12-18-2004, 07:37 PM   #97
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luke - i dont see how your system would be any different. Incidently, i have never heard of a 'zerg' so that went straight over my head.

viceroy - i have already explained how it is beneficial to realism and gameplay. Perhaps you should go back and actually read those posts.


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Old 12-18-2004, 08:50 PM   #98
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And I have just explained to you how the Zerg Creep functions in StarCraft...
The Creep being the area that the Zerg build on.

That was pretty obvious I suppose.

Again, my system does not totally nullify the possibility to do a turret push, it hampers it. In this case, if you want to put a CC in neutral territory, you can. In your system, people cannot do so.

If I was you, I would not dare to tell others to read your posts since all you seem to do is read a few words in it and then post a half-arsed reply.


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Old 12-18-2004, 10:32 PM   #99
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I hate power cores so I hope they don't have them in the next game. Maybe power stations like generals but I just hate cores.


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Old 12-19-2004, 12:45 AM   #100
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Windu your reasoning doesn't make sense so until you come up with valid reasons I will still think your system is un-nessacery and un-star warsy.

Froz what you just had was a stroke of Genius power cores could extend it a small to medium area while Power Generation Stations could extend it to a large to huge area.


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Old 12-19-2004, 02:14 AM   #101
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Ummmm No.........

I don't like the idea of having power radius power stations should just provide power and the more buildings you place the more power is needed to sustain them. I would be happy if power was not a factor at all.....


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Old 12-19-2004, 03:59 AM   #102
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luke - look at it this way. I have never played StarCraft, so explain this system to me in non-specific terms if you could. However, if your system doesnt eliminate turret pushes, then it simply isnt good enough.

FroZ - i completely agree with you. I have always prefered the system of having a global power meter rather than the power core system in GBG. Thats probably why i used a global system in my template.

Viceroy - okay then, how does my reasoning not make sense? Tell me what you do not understand and i will explain it to you.


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Old 12-19-2004, 06:07 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally posted by FroZticles
The counters in BFME are not that apparent it takes alot of pikemen to take out charging horseback.
What game are you playing? I can build a couple of battalions of pikemen and own the horsemen If anything, the pikemen are too strong, but then that's what the rohhirim archer is for.
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Old 12-19-2004, 06:14 AM   #104
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Windu what your saying makes sense your just not putting a strong enough case forward since Turret pushing is a strategy not a particularly common one but still a strategy anything that restricts any kind of strategy hurts gameplay and since they didn't have a borders system in real life in Star wars it hurts Realism anyway.

Geamplay + Realism > Windu's "Idea"


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Old 12-19-2004, 06:14 AM   #105
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It doesn't matter if I explain everything to you. All you want is SW: noobfest.

I'm through arguing with you. In the time you've spent here, you haven't changed one bit.

You contradict yourself at every turn. You don't want a civ building game but you manage to turn your template into a civ building game.

The power cores in GB stopped players to just build a troop center at the entrance of an enemy's base like how people did that in AoK. That's why it existed and it did its job damn well.


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Old 12-19-2004, 06:16 AM   #106
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I really don't know why we try to argue with him in a civilised manner since all he seems to do is think everyone should follow his Idea and template even though the new RTS has made them all useless so any template especially Winu's Frankenstein are useless.

I think he wants a RoNified version of Star Wars.

if he played on the zone with SWGB hs faveourite scenario would be City Build


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Old 12-19-2004, 06:23 AM   #107
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The thing is he wants me to explain how the Zerg Creep works in StarCraft without using the word Zerg or Creep.

Nice. He's just trying to ignore the arguments.


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Old 12-19-2004, 06:37 AM   #108
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Has he ever actually listend to sensible arguments?


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Old 12-19-2004, 05:22 PM   #109
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luke - if you cant explain that system to me without using all the Starcraft-specific mumbojumbo, how are you going to explain it to the average gamer? The borders system can easily be explained without using RoN-specific terms, im sure this could as well.

I am prepared to listen to any sensible arguments you put forward, the problem here is that i simply do not understand how your system works, because i have never played Starcraft. Aside from that, i really dont think a system that allows turret pushes to occur is good enough.

Also, the addition of power cores did NOT stop players building Troop Center's near the entrance of the enemy base, it mearly slowed the production speed of the infantry. Again, that sort of tactic is what should be stopped.

In addition, had you actually read my template properly would would have seen that it doesnt even resemble RoN, not is it a civ-building game. As for condradicting myself, exactly how do i contradict myself?

Viceroy -
Quote:
Has he ever actually listend to sensible arguments?
That's rich coming from you.

Also, not every strategy that works is good for gameplay. As i have stated before, and will again, THE UNITS SHOULD DO THE FIGHTING, NOT THE BUILDINGS! To destroy an enemy base, you should have to build an army suitable for that purpose and destroy the enemy through superior tactics. Putting a BASE-DEFENCE turret into your enemy's base just hurts gameplay, much as putting unit-production structures near an enemy base as luke said hurts gameplay.

In terms of realism, which of these two senario's is more realistic in the Star Wars universe?

1. Republic invades Geonosis and can only build in a small area until they expand. Lots of Clone Troopers are produced, and with Gunships and AT-TE's they attack the Confederacy base and landed Starships.

2. Republic invades Geonosis and starts building defensive turret next to the landed Federation Starships.

I mean, come on. To allow strategies like a turret push hurts gameplay and almost completely ruins realism.


I dont know about anyone else, but i want to play a STAR WARS RTS, not some generic rip-off RTS that uses the same system and has the same tactics but with Star Wars-based units. Games like GBG are for those who refuse to, or cannot, accept and deal with change. The next SW RTS needs to be different and fix some of the things wrong with the current generation of RTS'. The biggest change though needs to be that UNITS DO THE FIGHTING, not the buildings like luke and Viceroy's dream generic RTS.


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Old 12-19-2004, 05:32 PM   #110
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You must be pretty stupid to run through 2 batallions of pikemen with your horses in the 1st place.


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Old 12-19-2004, 06:35 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally posted by Darth Windu
luke - if you cant explain that system to me without using all the Starcraft-specific mumbojumbo, how are you going to explain it to the average gamer? The borders system can easily be explained without using RoN-specific terms, im sure this could as well.
Because borders system are a fairly common thing and any RoN term is non fictional. Let me ask you this, can you explain how borders work without mentionning the word "border"? Same thing, I can't explain how the Zerg Creep functions without mentionning the more technical terms.

Quote:
Originally posted by Darth Windu
I am prepared to listen to any sensible arguments you put forward, the problem here is that i simply do not understand how your system works, because i have never played Starcraft. Aside from that, i really dont think a system that allows turret pushes to occur is good enough.
For the last time, it does NOT stop the turret pushes BUT MAKES IT A FEAT WORTHY OF THE GUINESS BOOK OF WORLD RECORDS. A system that makes it something bery hard to accomplish is good enough. Besides, turret pushes in post-AoK/SWGB RTS are very rare thus trying to focus on such a small matter seems ridiculous.

Quote:
Originally posted by Darth Windu
Also, the addition of power cores did NOT stop players building Troop Center's near the entrance of the enemy base, it mearly slowed the production speed of the infantry. Again, that sort of tactic is what should be stopped.
Again, my system stops this. As a matter of fact, if in early game, in SWGB, an enemy managed to build a power core and a troop center that close to your main base, you deserved it for not paying attention.

Quote:
Originally posted by Darth Windu
In addition, had you actually read my template properly would would have seen that it doesnt even resemble RoN, not is it a civ-building game. As for condradicting myself, exactly how do i contradict myself?
You said you don't want civ building yet your research system is the same as every civ building game.




Quote:
Originally posted by Darth Windu
Also, not every strategy that works is good for gameplay. As i have stated before, and will again, THE UNITS SHOULD DO THE FIGHTING, NOT THE BUILDINGS! To destroy an enemy base, you should have to build an army suitable for that purpose and destroy the enemy through superior tactics. Putting a BASE-DEFENCE turret into your enemy's base just hurts gameplay, much as putting unit-production structures near an enemy base as luke said hurts gameplay.
And we have stated several times that this is a fairly uncommon strategy to do turret pushes. I have NEVER seen a victory done solely on a turret push strategy. You are irrelevant as you have ignore this very fact since the beginning. It is NOT a good strategy and players understand that.
What is better? Trying to poke you enemy with a turret or spending time preparing a real attack force? Every single non-retarded player knows that preparing a decent assault force is better then wasting time trying to pull off a turret push.
And again, nobody is disagreeing with the fact that unit should do the fighting. We just know for a fact that the average player does not waste time on useless strategies that gives them nothing.


Quote:
Originally posted by Darth Windu
In terms of realism, which of these two senario's is more realistic in the Star Wars universe?

1. Republic invades Geonosis and can only build in a small area until they expand. Lots of Clone Troopers are produced, and with Gunships and AT-TE's they attack the Confederacy base and landed Starships.

2. Republic invades Geonosis and starts building defensive turret next to the landed Federation Starships.

I mean, come on. To allow strategies like a turret push hurts gameplay and almost completely ruins realism.
Damn. Turret pushes are an uncommon strategy, players of any RTS know this. Nobody is going to go build a turret in a somebody's T4 main base(in SWGB) and in newer RTS, turret pushes are even rarer.





Quote:
Originally posted by Darth Windu
I dont know about anyone else, but i want to play a STAR WARS RTS, not some generic rip-off RTS that uses the same system and has the same tactics but with Star Wars-based units. Games like GBG are for those who refuse to, or cannot, accept and deal with change. The next SW RTS needs to be different and fix some of the things wrong with the current generation of RTS'. The biggest change though needs to be that UNITS DO THE FIGHTING, not the buildings like luke and Viceroy's dream generic RTS.
I hope one day, I won't have to repeat myself several times in the same post.
Nobody wants the buildings to do the fighting, we all understand that. We all know a turret push is possible, yet again, an uncommon and not very beneficial strategy. Players know this. Players are not stupid Windu. If you would play online, you would see that only a small number of players attempt that.

Seriously, I do not understand what makes you so angry about turret pushes. It's uncommon in newer RTS. Is it a problem? Not really. You're the first person who seems so violent against turret pushes. It's the first time since AoK that I hear of it as such a "plague to gameplay".
We all accept change. We know that things have changed since SWGB and AoK in the world of RTS games. It is inevitable to accept change. However, I cannot see how you can seriously consider people who like SWGB as people who cannot accept "change". It's a 3 year old RTS.
Things change in 3 years. Things have changed since Dune II, since the first C&C. Hell, I like Dune II does that mean I want to roll back in time and have an RTS made with 1992 graphics, ancient gameplay? Absolutely not and this assumption of yours if totally flawed.

I would now like you to list everything you find wrong with the current generation of RTS. Perhaps it shall be clearer for us.


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Old 12-20-2004, 01:03 AM   #112
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Windu, you just don't approve of people playing games, do you? You seem to want to ban every strat other than slowly build up a large army and attack head on. You sound like some deranged right-wing politician going on about banning things. A good RTS game should have as many viable strats as possible to add to variety and replayability, but it should also be balanced so that each strat has a viable counter, stopping people from getting a lock-on victory with just one strat, provided that their opponent is competent. And that's the key: you actually have to play the game and learn to improve. It shouldn't be easy for you, it should be challenging. If you're automatically protected from rushes/pushes then there's no incentive to improve your game, and it will always turn into the equivalent of a rook game of SWGB where no-one attacks until T4. And that is very, very dull.
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Old 12-20-2004, 02:01 AM   #113
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I had that kind of attitude back when I was a rook. Everything had to be slow and I hated people who rushed me. Once you start learning strats it becomes more apparent that all those strategies are apart of the game and not just a sit there until both players mass huge armies and watching them go at it.


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Old 12-20-2004, 02:09 AM   #114
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There are actually two sides to this. It is epic and fun to see two large armies go at it but it is a short fun. With rushes and raids, there is plenty of action from beginning to end.


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Old 12-20-2004, 03:35 AM   #115
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luke - its not about being 'violent' againt turret pushes, i am against any strategy that hurts realism to a great extent, which turret pushes do. After all, we're looking at playing a Star Wars game, and if it doesnt 'feel' like Star Wars, what's the point?

saber - of course i approve of people playing games. As i said to luke, its about maintaining realism at an acceptable level. Besides, if people cant win using any strategy other than a turret push, they have really big problems. Incidently, i would it rather amusing that you called me a right-wing politician, mainly because im a left-wing politician

As i have said, im not against people using different strategies - after all, the Republic rushed the Confederacy on Geonosis. What i am against is strategies which completely ignore realism and hurt gameplay, such as a turret push - hence the desire for a borders or borders-style system.


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Old 12-20-2004, 07:51 AM   #116
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For god's sakes Windu read the f*cking posts. Turret pushes are not a common strategy, they're merely used for annoying the enemy.

I'm gonna show you this:

This is what a turret push is:



As you can see, it only stops the enemy from harvesting carbon in his territory, something that can be easily dealt with.

This is what you, in your dreamland, think a turret push is:



As you can see and as people have stated several times, this is not common, if not so uncommon it never happened. Of course, this is not preferable as it is indeed, stopping gameplay. However, the red player here is obviously extremely retarded since he allowed the enemy to build a substancial number of turrets so close to his base. This amount of turret can actually do damage against enemy buildings but normally, a single turret has never been a problem.

Also, as Froz pointed out earlier and as you obviously have ignore is the fact that there are better the ways to counter what happens in screenshot 2 or what happens in screenshot 1.

I will post on how the Zerg in StarCraft work later and explain my cross between that system and mine.


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Old 12-20-2004, 04:17 PM   #117
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luke - I have never claimed that the turret push is a common strategy, you simply assumed that that's what I was saying. What I was saying is that it should be eliminated.


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Old 12-20-2004, 06:17 PM   #118
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The fort push happens in basically everygame in a 3v3 or 4v4 even in 1v1, 2v2. Which pushes the enemy back because the fort lasers will kill his army until he gets pummels or cannons. So Windu you should dispute that more then the turrent push which I have never seen happen in the screenies Luke has.


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Old 12-20-2004, 07:40 PM   #119
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FroZ - my 'complaint' is not limited to a turret push, but any tactic that destroys realism, such as a turret or fort push.


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Old 12-21-2004, 03:55 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally posted by Darth Windu
The biggest change though needs to be that UNITS DO THE FIGHTING, not the buildings like luke and Viceroy's dream generic RTS.
So by saying that there needs to be a change here mean that at the moment, there is a lot of building pushes and buildings fighting buildings.

I assumed through a logical reasoning from the words you chose.


You speak of it as if it was like screenshot 2 which it is not.
I say it again, it is a minor problem that does NOT need borders to solve.



I'm with Froz on this one. Fort pushes are more damaging then turret pushes. But I suppose that because of realism, forts shouldn't be in SWGB 2.

Now as for realism, should the Rebels be allowed to attack an enemy head-on? Should the Confederacy be allowed to sneak around? Should the Republic try a slow ponderous attack strategy with very slow vehicles? Should the Empire try to attack with only lightning fast vehicles?

If we are here to destroy tactics for the sake of realism, let's insta-kill Rebel troopers who don't act like they should, let's do that to the Confederacy, to the Republic and the Empire, since a particular tactic isn't what they would use in Star Wars.


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