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Old 07-20-2005, 05:24 PM   #121
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So I'm the only one not planning to write a book?


Vader's wife was very pregnant when she died 19 years ago. All of a sudden a 19 year old who is very strong in the force and has a distinct resembalance to him in his younger days rolls in from Vader's home planet with his old Master Obi-Wan (Who was the ONLY other person preset at the time his wife died. And to boot, the kid's last name is Skywalker.

So in answer to your question, he knew Luke was his son because his name is Darth Vader, and not Darth Retard.


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Old 07-20-2005, 08:44 PM   #122
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I guess so, JM


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Old 07-21-2005, 06:09 AM   #123
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JM: Looks like.

Red: Ahh, thats what I thought. Well here's your answer: If the group is worthy they will pass through the underworld, if they are not they won't.

Again, they will need someone with local knowledge or they will likely die. I'm not saying why.


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Old 07-21-2005, 11:23 AM   #124
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Well BD, the group has been "likely" to die throughout every single thread yet.

The quest can't be created to require "help from Agamari" unless the Agamari were contained in the quest themselves, like the dwarves frozen in stone a few threads back. There's simply no way the creators could've ensured that the Agamari would even be around. "Always in motion is the future."

If you mean something outside the quest is going to kill them, I think you're underestimating the group's survivability in these situations. Especially considering the supernatural help they've got.

Either way, the group can't be strongarmed into acting out-of-character just because "if they don't do this they will likely die". Outside knowledge of that can't affect how the group will act. You need a better reason.


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Old 07-21-2005, 02:36 PM   #125
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JM, I think most of us are.


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Old 07-21-2005, 04:24 PM   #126
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come up with your own plot JM, might be easier

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Old 07-21-2005, 04:41 PM   #127
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Red, look if you don't want the group to have guides then they won't. Just don't be surprised when nothing makes sense and they find themselves questioning their sanity. Just to be a little clearer, we're not talking about force of arms.


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Old 07-21-2005, 04:52 PM   #128
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i think with the things already happened, i think they should have if not already questioned such

but i think what you're trying to get at, you're going to introduce a sort of psyicho-symatic situation that would freak out members of the group?

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Old 07-21-2005, 05:54 PM   #129
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The only part of that I understood was "Freek out the group"


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Old 07-21-2005, 06:01 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scar Da Kookee
come up with your own plot JM, might be easier
I would but....erm.......um......OK, I'M LAZY, ALL RIGHT?


Vader's wife was very pregnant when she died 19 years ago. All of a sudden a 19 year old who is very strong in the force and has a distinct resembalance to him in his younger days rolls in from Vader's home planet with his old Master Obi-Wan (Who was the ONLY other person preset at the time his wife died. And to boot, the kid's last name is Skywalker.

So in answer to your question, he knew Luke was his son because his name is Darth Vader, and not Darth Retard.


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Old 07-22-2005, 12:55 AM   #131
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and all i understand is is that you're trying to do something with the plot that for strange reasons the group has to do, but in the case of certain individuals in the group, your ideas cant be possible (in more then one way or another)

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Old 07-25-2005, 01:40 AM   #132
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I would but....erm.......um......OK, I'M LAZY, ALL RIGHT?

So'm I.... that's no excuse


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Old 07-25-2005, 02:58 AM   #133
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Quote:
Originally posted by BattleDog
Red, look if you don't want the group to have guides then they won't. Just don't be surprised when nothing makes sense and they find themselves questioning their sanity. Just to be a little clearer, we're not talking about force of arms.
Whether or not I want the group to have guides isn't an issue (for the record I have absolutely zero preference one way or another. how could I have one? XD) But I balk at the idea of forcing the group to act out-of-character.

Maybe Admiral and I are too used to intensively arguing this stuff out over IM (which we've done for all PtH plots since, oh, about chapter 2 IIRC.) My operational system of thought here is:

A) Plot creator wants something to happen that requires characters to do or not do something.

B) Judging by the way the plot is planned to go, characters probably won't go along with it, spoiling things.

C) We then try and reconcile points A and B.

Re: Sanity - Hmmm, well, keep in mind you can't really control whether or not the group goes crazy or not.


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Old 07-25-2005, 10:38 AM   #134
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Red, what I don't quite get here is "out of character."

Are you saying that its out of character for the group to except help? Look at it this way, you land on a strange planet which screws with a fair bit of the stuff you've come to rely on. Further you discover you've stumbled into the middle of a very bloody war and that somewhere along the line you lost twenty years.

Now out of this someone you recognize as being a moderately sane and honourable man says, "Hey, I have an army here, so I reckon I can spare a couple of guys to guide you to exactly where you need to go and make sure you survive all the other locals.

So you reckon the group wouldn't say yes?

Further, to your earlier point about the Agamari not being part of the quest, why not? If everything is predetermined by the Norns then they could have forseen the Agamari on the planet.


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Old 07-25-2005, 07:05 PM   #135
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Red: I prefer calling that process how we refine ideas.

BD:

It is out of character for the quest makers (at least mine) to have it so the group must rely on outsiders (regardless of how trust worthy they are). I would go as far as saying they wouldn't allow a section of the quest where the group needed outsiders. Why is that?

1. Well for starters these stages of the quest are test for the group. They are designed to see if the group posses certain virtues (that Red and I of deemed important) such as wisdom, courage, compassion, honesty etc.

2. Rremember that the group will not get the time matrix (Odin and the Norns knew about that) so these quest are preparing the group for a different challenge really.

3. The quest makers want the group to rely on each other and not outsiders.

4. The group must be able to face the minor dangers on Tarsis (no matter what you say, in the grand scheme of things they will be minor). As such the quest makers would most likely have the group go through the most dangerous parts of the planet. If they can't survive Tarsis by themselves then they won't be able to finish the remaining parts of the quest.
------------------------------------------------------

Another thing that is out of character for the group is to have them rely upon the Agamari *for anything*. Time has shown that the group doesn't bother to seek out local governments or try and get any help the exception being Midgard. Where one the planet was inhabited by the Aesir, and the group wasn't given much of a choice. This wont' be the case on Tarsis. Why? The Aesir and the rest of the group don't trust the Agamari.
----------------------------------------------------------

As far as your scenario (about stumbling into a bloody war etc). The group would avoid getting themselves entangled in the war especially after losing twenty years. They would try and remain neutral and reach their objective as quickly as possible.

Also so far your locals don't seem all that dangerous, when compared to the skill/power the group possess even if they don't have things they rely on.

Something has just occured to me. The Agamari invaded Tarsis (still I'm not sure why), the original inhabitants could be/are just trying to get rid of the invaders and free their world. It is not a far step to say that the Agamari are the bad guys in this conflict with the original inhabitants the good guys. It is not even a stretch to see why they attack outsiders after such a bad experience with the Agamari.

If the Norns take that view point (I say if since I don't know the backstory) then they certainly would prevent any part of the quest involving the group relying on the Agamari. Speaking of which, keep in mind BD that the Norns are my characters and I have final say in what they know and who they share that knowledge with. Normally they do not share any information about the future or events.

Another thing to keep in the back of your head as you develope this plot line. You are essentially taking control of some of my characters and Reds. When we ask for reasons for a situation or argue about one, we are trying to make sure that this section of the quest remains true to what our characters (the quest makers) would do. And if we say that none of the quest makers would do that you are going to have to take our word for it since they are after all our characters (and in the past you have misjudged how at least my characters view certain situations).

So with that in mind I ask what is the purpose of going to the underworld? Is it a test of somekind and if so what is it testing (something to keep in mind the questmakers wouldn't restest virtues the group has already shown to posses)?

As far guides. Hal is certainly free to offer them to the group, but at least Odin and the Norns would not design a section of the quest where the group would need to have a guide.

I think that is everything I wanted to say.


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Old 07-26-2005, 05:01 PM   #136
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Thankyou for articulating all that Admiral, Red seems to be a bit ham fisted with the keyboard at the moment.

First off let me say that of course your characters are your own and you have every right to argue. I know how frustrating it is to be hijacked. The problem here is everyone is trying not to spoil their surprises. I know there's one I can keep under wraps.

Since I've already said I'm basing the underworld a bit off Homer I'll tell you a little more about it. For starters in order to enter you have to cross the river, name pending, and pay the ferryman. If you want to go back you have to pay him double when you cross, plus a couple of other things. You also have a time limit, or you die

Now here's the thing, everything in the underworld will be geared to turning the group away from the quest. Remember the underworld is full of shades. For example, there will be millions of souls stuck on the wrong side of the river because they are unburied due to their planets being blown up. So there will be plenty of silent finger pointing at the Aesir. Another example, members of the group's families will be there, although people like Deac and Odin wouldn't be in the Shades, so you won't see any Cantina characters, the likes of Cracken would be in Hell at this point.

The point is there is going to be a lot to distract the group, plus the fact that they will be going into the land of the dead and that has to give anyone the heebi-jeebies.

So I would say the attribute tested here would be resolve, or faith. Both of those would have to be very important to the quest and whatever you have at the end, I expect. Another thing they might need would be humility, accepting help when you need it isn't a sign of weakness, you can take that or leave it though.

-----------------------------------------

As far as getting help, how are the Agamari any different from the Aesir? In real terms no one trusted the Aesir except the Aesir, nobody is going to trust the Agamari except Hal and his family. I really see no difference, except theat the group aren't traveling in Hal's ship.

-----------------------------------------

About the bloody war, well they don't have to take part but they're still going to be slap bang in the middle of it.

About the locals, you aint seen nothing yet mate, lets just say Hal is going to need that super powered sword.

Q: Are the Agamari the "Good Guys"?

A: Errrr......ummmm........No, they're a bunch of ruthless barbarians.

I actually debated with myself the idea of the Aesir being declared "Unworthy" (I'm going to translate that into Saxon later) whcih would mean that the Agamari would do their level best to kill all male Aesir. No prisoners.

As far as the Tarsai-Agamari War there are no "good guys" the Agamari are the aggressors but the Tarsai burn women with their husbands, eat each other's babies, practice blood sports such as gladiatorial combat and worship the god heads of death, destruction and war.

So chew on that, and give me your thoughts.


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Old 07-26-2005, 05:06 PM   #137
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i thought that a cantina group was not even in the picture of them neither dead nor alive for the fact of them being with and using the time matrix

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Old 07-26-2005, 06:34 PM   #138
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No, they're still dead, otherwise Vidar would be MIA as well.


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Old 07-26-2005, 08:04 PM   #139
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Scar: The Cantina Group (Odin, Deac, Flax, etc) were essentially copied and told go grab the time matrix. As such in this time line they are dead.

I'll deal with the simplest matter first, taking help from the Agamari.

The only time the group recieved any help from the Aesir was before the battle of Midgard. The group was forced to accept the Aesir's help, mainly since Heimdall went directly to the main Aesirian encampment. From that point the group wasn't given much of a chance to refuse any aid.

Now lets really look at the aid that was given. The group was given supplies and Idona joined them. The reason she joined is partly personal which will be shown in the thread, and as another warrior. So the help was minimal.

With that said the main problem with the guide/help from the Agamari is having the quest dependent upon that. The quest makers wouldn't have that. With that said Hal can certainly offer the group guides, pack animals, supplies whatever. The group may or may not accept all or part of the aid. The quest just cannot be dependent upon that aid.

And just one thing about having a guide. He wouldn't be able to take the group on a less dangerous path, the quest makers would have seen to that. Reason: They want to make it hard on the group.

Just for illustration: To reach the time matrix there are two paths. One is through a nice pleasant valley with tall trees, a could of gently flowing streams. The other path is through the firey pits of hell. The questmakers would see to it tha the group would have to go through hell (regardless if there is a guide saying, bad idea), to reach the time matrix, and then back again to get away with it. and not just so they can say they been to hell and back again.

Oh, just something else for you to consider, any guide could be Hal son/daughter if you wanted to make things a little interesting.
------------------------------------------------

The Underworld: The sounds much better BD. I do have a few caveats though.

Well to use christain terminology, what you describe is a sort of purgatory/limbo for souls who can't pass to the next level (mainly a type of heaven) since some rites haven't been preformed. If this is the case then I don't really have a problem with the "Agamari underworld"(for a lack of a better name).

I would have a problem if it was the entire underworld. Mainly since we have already shown that the underworld has levels with Niflheim being on the lowest level of the Realm of the Dead. Also that depending on your culture/race different things happen. The Jedi for instance become "one with the force" although some are still able to linger in the mortal world.

As I said, if this "Agamari underworld" is just another level there shouldn't be a problem. Although you wouldn't find any dead Aesir there (they go to another place(s) when they die, this of course the destination is dependent on how they lived their lives).
----------------------------------------------
War: My main point is that the group isn't going to try and get entangled in that war. How successful they are is another story. I don't know how your going to have the war (who is winning/who is lossing) but I would say it would fit the times if the Agamari are losing.

Agamari are ruthless barbarians is the reason the Norns/Odin wouldn't have a quest dependent upon them
-----------------------------------------------------------

The Aesir being deemed unworthy does go directly against Hal giving Vidar that sword in friendship.

However lets just say the Aesir were declared "unworthy", and the Agamari attacked the men.

1. You attack an Aesir you will have to deal with all of them (including the females).

2. The Drakes will come to the Aesir's aid without hesitation and proceed to unleash an inferno upon the Agamari.

3. The Asgardried would commence an orbital bombardment.

4. While the Agamari may hurt one of the Aesir, it would turn into a slaughter for the Agamari.

Keep in mind that the Aesir are by far the most heavily trained warriors in this galaxy. Also they have hundred of years of combat experience and finally the Aesir on this quest are members of their Elite forces (Beserks, Einherjar, and Valkyries) so the Agamari wouldn't just be dealing with common soldiers.

That is just something to keep in mind. I really don't want to go through another serious of my troops will slaughter yours, no mine will etc.


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Old 07-26-2005, 10:52 PM   #140
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Quote:
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Thankyou for articulating all that Admiral, Red seems to be a bit ham fisted with the keyboard at the moment.
Heh - and I thought Admiral was being harsher than I was! Obviously my tiredness is interfering with my clarity

Quote:
For example, there will be millions of souls stuck on the wrong side of the river because they are unburied due to their planets being blown up. So there will be plenty of silent finger pointing at the Aesir. Another example, members of the group's families will be there, although people like Deac and Odin wouldn't be in the Shades, so you won't see any Cantina characters, the likes of Cracken would be in Hell at this point.
I do like this whole underworld idea. Need to add to the caveat that Admiral gave, though - no culture who didn't have a tradition of this would necessarily end up in this part of the underworld (especially with the VERY culture-specific idea that burial is necessary). Definitely no one related to any extradimensionals, or Raschel (this being because Raschel has no relatives in this galaxy.


Quote:
Originally posted by Admiral
Scar: The Cantina Group (Odin, Deac, Flax, etc) were essentially copied and told go grab the time matrix. As such in this time line they are dead.
Actually to clarify: The Cantina Group wasn't copied - it was taken out of the time stream. But this hasn't happened yet. It won't happen until this time line finishes itself. When it does happen, this time line will change, with the Cantina Group being missing, rather than dead. Of course, nothing will happen any differently since "missing" is for all intents and purposes the same as "dead".

Yeah, kinda irrelevant, I know.


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Old 07-27-2005, 12:04 PM   #141
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meh, what do i know, i'm just the comic relief.


sorry JM :P

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Old 07-27-2005, 04:45 PM   #142
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Right, I get the "hard as possible thing." I wasn't envisaging an easy route, if any part of it is less than a nightmare it will be pure luck.

I still say that there is no difference between the Agamari and the Aesir, if the group managed to miss Tol Dura, well you'll see when they get there.

About the son/daughter thing, way ahead of you. Did you think I was slacking.

Underworld: I have no problem with that, think of the underworld as compartmentalised. Remember I said they would only be going to a certain section. The "lost souls" are actually a Roman concept, did you know that the Romans ALWAYS burried some part of the body even if it was just a strip of flesh from the thigh.

Unworthy: As I said I toyed with the idea, then dropped it, about four months ago, at least. I also toyed with the idea that Vidar would be dragged off in chains and asked to answer for his crimes.

Oh, byt the by, I have a Drake counter lined up, two actually.


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Old 07-27-2005, 05:50 PM   #143
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Oh Drake counters, that should be funny.

I figured that you dropped the unworthy plot, although that would have been amusing, same thing if you tried to chain Vidar up (regardless of everything else you try chaining up a person who is there one second and gone the next).

About the underworld: I see it as sectioned and layered so to speak.

As far as burial rites: Yup I've always found those to be interesting, just like the different concepts of the underworld.


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Old 07-28-2005, 01:25 PM   #144
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Mock the dangers of Tarsis at your peril, young man.

Okay, thats going in the book.


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Old 07-28-2005, 04:09 PM   #145
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remove an 's' and you'd already have a dead world.... :P

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Old 07-28-2005, 04:19 PM   #146
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Yes, we did all that about six months ago at least, at any rate the world isn't dead at all.


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Old 07-28-2005, 05:44 PM   #147
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KOTOR reference bd.

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Old 07-28-2005, 06:05 PM   #148
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Yeah, I got that, like I said, we did this whole thing about six months ago


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Old 08-01-2005, 06:46 PM   #149
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Due to my further writing on LucasForums using Kira, that character is a bit more complicated.

Kira was involved in the Sith back in the KOTOR time period. She was admired for her skill with a lightsaber, but something about her would not allow her to exercise the ruthlessness the Sith were best known for.

Before her eighteenth birthday, Kira was a Jedi apprentice named Teri Korr. She trained under her father, Ethan. Several days after Teri turned eighteen, her father was killed by a Sith Warrior. Her father's death drove her mad and she vanished, only to return as Kira.

A year later, Kira was involved in a crash on a highly unusual planet. She began to remember bits and pieces of her life as Teri Korr. As it turned out, the planet was split by a time barrier. When a fourteen year old Teri approached Kira, she remembered the planet.

Ethan and Teri Korr had crashed on the planet four years earlier and had been rescued two years later. Now, four years after the original crash, the planet had drawn young Teri face to face with what she had become. Kira knew she couldn't kill this young Jedi. If she did, she would die as well.

Just before Kira successfully escaped the planet, Teri was struck down by another Sith warrior, the same one who had originally killed her father. Kira felt weakness overcoming her. In an attempt to save her future self and return Kira to the light, Teri entered her future body, refusing to let it die.

Kira refused to listen to Teri, who became a second part of her brain. In the end, the body was killed, but Kira refused to let go of life. The two linked persons continued to enter new bodies and assume new lifestyles. Each time, Kira would destroy the original mind that lived in the body. This continued until they found Tanara, who was strong enough to resist destruction.

When the two found Elaina, Teri prevented Kira from killing her and the two found Tanara. When Tanara took Kira back, Teri stayed with Elaina and has not yet revealed herself.

I'm not entirely sure how I want this to go. From what I gather, Kira resurfacing will not be accepted at all, but it could be rather interesting to have Kira and Teri get into some kind of argument. If not that, Teri will resurface and ask a bunch of questions. For the most part, Kira's been restraining her. She's not sure how long it's been since she saved Kira's life.


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Old 08-01-2005, 08:39 PM   #150
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i say, go for it WJ, sounds like a good conflicting plot.

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Old 08-01-2005, 09:35 PM   #151
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Kira taking over Tanara for a prolonged period of time could see Tanara being thrown out an air lock.

Don't let that stop you from having Kira and Teri from having a conflict or even resurfacing. It should be interesting and good character development.


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Old 08-01-2005, 11:08 PM   #152
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Ah... well, it won't be long. but now's as good a time as any.


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Old 08-03-2005, 03:03 AM   #153
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Complicated plots are awesome. (I'm sure you're all shocked to know I hold that opinion.)

By the way, if a plot should come up that would require the Aesir not to tolerate a characters' presence on the Asgardried, they could end up in Guy's ship (since Guy won't refuse anyone and doesn't want to eliminate any member of the group. Plus he's got those visions that conveniently let him see glimpses of the future etc). But Guy hasn't told anyone this obviously so no one should be running rampant expecting that to happen =)


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Old 08-24-2005, 08:19 AM   #154
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cent reply for the next few days

lappy HD = fried :sob:

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Old 08-24-2005, 10:26 AM   #155
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^Cent reply? What does that mean? You're giving us a cent to reply, you're getting a cent to reply, or you're paying a cent to reply?


Vader's wife was very pregnant when she died 19 years ago. All of a sudden a 19 year old who is very strong in the force and has a distinct resembalance to him in his younger days rolls in from Vader's home planet with his old Master Obi-Wan (Who was the ONLY other person preset at the time his wife died. And to boot, the kid's last name is Skywalker.

So in answer to your question, he knew Luke was his son because his name is Darth Vader, and not Darth Retard.


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Old 08-24-2005, 12:58 PM   #156
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or all of the above perhaps?


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Old 08-24-2005, 02:19 PM   #157
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funny guys, you knew what i ment...

cant

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Old 08-24-2005, 02:57 PM   #158
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cant what?



And you know my philosophy: You can typo, but if it becomes another word, I'm making fun of it.


Vader's wife was very pregnant when she died 19 years ago. All of a sudden a 19 year old who is very strong in the force and has a distinct resembalance to him in his younger days rolls in from Vader's home planet with his old Master Obi-Wan (Who was the ONLY other person preset at the time his wife died. And to boot, the kid's last name is Skywalker.

So in answer to your question, he knew Luke was his son because his name is Darth Vader, and not Darth Retard.


-Forum post on why Vader knew Luke was his son.
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Old 08-24-2005, 03:51 PM   #159
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and I'm just being entertained


Mom tells me I need brain food... but if writing ain't that, I don't know what is!

My work in progress:
Hidden Histories: The Galaxy Hacker

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Old 08-24-2005, 03:53 PM   #160
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^Which fufills my inner comedian.


Vader's wife was very pregnant when she died 19 years ago. All of a sudden a 19 year old who is very strong in the force and has a distinct resembalance to him in his younger days rolls in from Vader's home planet with his old Master Obi-Wan (Who was the ONLY other person preset at the time his wife died. And to boot, the kid's last name is Skywalker.

So in answer to your question, he knew Luke was his son because his name is Darth Vader, and not Darth Retard.


-Forum post on why Vader knew Luke was his son.
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