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Old 01-19-2005, 01:46 AM   #1
Leper Messiah
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Ill get into the EU and kill Jaina myself...

not just the NJO but Jaina (and Jacen to be fair) annoys the hell out of me, she seems to be a popular character with others but i can't see why, she (and Jacen) is arrogant as hell and as i can't stand brats the only scenes i can stand with her in is where bad stuff is happening to her (i knew there was another reason i liked Kyp) so far the end of Star By Star and most of Dark Journey have been the only times she's been tolerable because it was quite entertaining seeing her nearly go to the dark side but apparently shes got over that and is getting back to her old self now. Anakin also annoyed me to an extent but he became quite a decent character in the NJO and his death, although a great scene doesnt really make a great deal of sense to me because his character seemed to have a bigger destiny ahead of him.

as you can guess while i was away at christmas i had a lot of time on my hands to read some pre-NJO EU, my job allowed me to spend most of my time sitting down reading.



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Old 01-19-2005, 02:14 AM   #2
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another reason why there are as many people who hate the NJO as like it.

pre-NJO EU introduced a lot of decent and interesting characters... Mara Jade, Horn, Karrde, Thrawn, Winter, the solo children, Kyp, the list goes on.

all the NJO did was basically introduced some star trek type baddies and then proceeded to destroy these decent characters by either killing them off or making them so unlikeable that you wanted them to kill them off.
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Old 01-19-2005, 03:45 AM   #3
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i didnt say a word against the NJO, Jaina was never interesting for me except her near dark side turn which strangely enough was in the NJO. but throughout her presence in the EU she is always annoying. and as i said, same for Jacen and to a lesser extent Anakin

the Vong i originally thought of as Star Trek type aliens but theyre not really, i like trek and i cant think of a race they compare to. Species 8472 are the only race in trek with biotech and the two races are very different.



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Old 01-19-2005, 04:20 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sivy
another reason why there are as many people who hate the NJO as like it.

pre-NJO EU introduced a lot of decent and interesting characters... Mara Jade, Horn, Karrde, Thrawn, Winter, the solo children, Kyp, the list goes on.

all the NJO did was basically introduced some star trek type baddies and then proceeded to destroy these decent characters by either killing them off or making them so unlikeable that you wanted them to kill them off.
pfft to you ! I get to use this again



bravo to Leper though, for not letting that cheeky bugger Siv do his old Yuuzhan Vong=species 8472 routine. If you said Vong are like Klingons or like the Predator, you are much closer to the mark, but 8472... As a Voyager fan, I will ensure you dont get to come on our next away mission to the Planet of Naked Green Women that Kirk Kissed

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Old 01-19-2005, 04:42 AM   #5
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would the inhabitants of that planet be the same ones that a good slice of the population entered a tanning booth came out blue and emigrated en masse to the star wars universe calling themselves the Twi'leks in the process?

i cant see Klingon/Vong similarity myself since the Vong dedicate themselves in part to trickery and subterfuge, something the Klingons find distasteful. If i had to give a Vong/trek similarity id say they were like an amalgamation of the Klingons and Romulans but those races are so different you couldnt really say the Vong equate to one or the other. So therefore Vong = unique, Star Wars race

anyway to get back on topic, Jaina is particularly irritating in the book im reading at the moment (Rebel Dream) she just wallows and wallows and wallows and keeps thinking better not talk to anyone in case they miss me when im dead. I find it highly unlikely that she will die so i wish shed stop going on about it.



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Old 01-19-2005, 07:39 AM   #6
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I rather like Jaina. *hugs Jaina avy/sig combo*

As for the Yuuzhan Vong and Trekkie. To me, the Vong resemble the Borg the most. yet, they are so very different.
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Old 01-19-2005, 08:19 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sivy
another reason why there are as many people who hate the NJO as like it.

pre-NJO EU introduced a lot of decent and interesting characters... Mara Jade, Horn, Karrde, Thrawn, Winter, the solo children, Kyp, the list goes on.
That is definitely one thing I was disappointed about with the NJO. I had come to think of the Jedi Knights of the Old Republic as noble and completely dedicated to the Jedi cause. Characters like Qui-Gon, Kenobi, and so one explified their ideals. I had a hard time accepting characters like Jaina and Ganner who were arrogant and whiny. A certain portion of the new Jedi just seemed like punks. Even Skywalker turned into a wishy-washy invalid, with a personality that contradicts how he is portrayed in the movies.

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Old 01-19-2005, 10:27 AM   #8
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Wink

The whole "Vong = Species 8472" thing isn't so far-fetched.

What other well-known alien race in Sci Fi before the Vong was "all biotech" ?

They're a racist species of fanatics that want to take over the entire galaxy, after they've left their own, nearly invincible, anti-technology, etc etc.

It's clear where they stole the idea from, and Voyager mostly sucked, so... heh


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Old 01-19-2005, 12:37 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan

They're a racist species of fanatics that want to take over the entire galaxy, after they've left their own, nearly invincible, anti-technology, etc etc.
The Vong may be but 8472 are not, 8472 got into a war with the Borg because the Borg tried attacking them and swifty realised theyd bitten off more than they could chew. 8472 also employed conventional technology to assemble an environment they could practice espionage in. Also, 8472 didnt wage war indiscriminately because it examined the Federation (humans basically for the non Trek inclined) and chose not to destroy it because they found it 1) had no plans against them and 2) were not really a threat to them.

Quote:
By StarWarsPhreak
I rather like Jaina. *hugs Jaina avy/sig combo*
but why?



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Old 01-19-2005, 11:22 PM   #10
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EU = HURK!!!
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Old 01-19-2005, 11:49 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kain
EU = HURK!!!
Let me say it once and only once, Kain. Take a look above you. People who like and dislike things about the EU discussing and sharing points of view in a sane and civil manner.

There is simply no room here for crap like your comment above. Unless you want to contribute I suggest you take your shadowy form back to the swamp and tell someone off for not choosing the right vampire in RPG

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Old 01-20-2005, 06:20 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kain
EU = HURK!!!
The entire EU? There is so much of it and it is so varied, surely there is something in there that you like. Even some of the video games?

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Old 01-20-2005, 08:52 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Astrotoy7
Let me say it once and only once, Kain. Take a look above you. People who like and dislike things about the EU discussing and sharing points of view in a sane and civil manner.

There is simply no room here for crap like your comment above. Unless you want to contribute I suggest you take your shadowy form back to the swamp and tell someone off for not choosing the right vampire in RPG

mtfbwya
Oh I'm sorry. I thought posting opinions was allowed here in the forums. Silly me. Let me break it down in a 'more civil manner'.

NJO = HAHAHA!!! Worst concept ever. Snot nosed little brats learning control over the all powerful Force. Grand concept. A generation of Anakin Skywalkers.

Yuuzahn Vong - Hmm...lessee. A race of fanatically religious self-mutilating technology hating beings who 'grow' their weapons and interstellar vehicles. Well, it could be worse. Not sure how yet, but it could be worse.

Shadows of the Empire - The Adventures of Han Solo...um I mean Dash Rendar. I forgot their was a deference.

The Jedi Knight Series - S'alright.
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Old 01-20-2005, 09:17 AM   #14
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See, that was much better. You are allowed to post your opinions, but 2 words is hardly a constuctive post.
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Old 01-20-2005, 05:52 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Leper Messiah

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan

They're a racist species of fanatics that want to take over the entire galaxy, after they've left their own, nearly invincible, anti-technology, etc etc.


The Vong may be but 8472 are not, 8472 got into a war with the Borg because the Borg tried attacking them and swifty realised theyd bitten off more than they could chew. 8472 also employed conventional technology to assemble an environment they could practice espionage in. Also, 8472 didnt wage war indiscriminately because it examined the Federation (humans basically for the non Trek inclined) and chose not to destroy it because they found it 1) had no plans against them and 2) were not really a threat to them.
Sorry, I momentary forgot about that 5th season VOY episode (last appearance of Species 8472 in canonical trek iirc) "In the Flesh" where that stuff is discussed.

IIRC though a simple cease fire was negotiated between Voyager and Species8472, "for now." Previously in the show 8472 telepathically communicated to Kes (in the "Scorpion" two-parter) that they did intend to try to conquer the Milky Way galaxy and "purge" it of "weak beings" as they had already done with their own galaxy (of "fluidic space"). Their beef thus wasn't just with the Borg, but everyone in the Trek galaxy that they deemed inferior. Note: if you want the relevant quotes from Scorpion 1 & 2 about Species 8472's intentions, just ask. I didn't want to clutter things up anymore than necessary!

And until Janeway's "negotiation" (in "In the Flesh") they hadn't really decided that the Federation or humanity was "no threat" or had no designs against them. The purpose of the simulation was to try to understand their enemy better, that was the whole point. I could watch the episode again to pick out quotes, but that was the impression I got the first time around.

Yes, the Borg did provoke them initially, but that doesn't change the character of the species at the time of their introduction.

Remeber that Voyager, completely out of character for past Federation behavior, actually AIDED their hated enemy, the Borg, AGAINST Species 8472. So while Species 8472 may have been a fascist species, they had every reason to assume the worst.
Like the Borg, they seem to have changed in the course of the show. And oddly enough, like the Vong, they are now shown doing spy work for their planned invasion. Now again I'm not saying the two are identical, but I think it's no stretch to see one inspiring the other. The NJO began in what, 2001? That was the final year of Voyager, incidentally. Now in the Star Wars EU, the plot of "super aliens from beyond known space threaten the galaxy" isn't exactly a new one, but c'mon, seriously...

Of all the villians in Star Wars, the Vong seem the most "different" from what we've seen previously. And of all the recurring villians in Star Trek, Species 8472 seem the most "alien." Is this the best that modern sci fi writers can come up with?

No offense to anyone who likes the NJO or Voyager of course. ; )


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Old 01-21-2005, 12:22 AM   #16
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well yes i forgot entirely about the whole "The weak will perish" thing with 8472, its a long time since i watched Voyager, but yes their attitude in "Scorpion" is a bit Vong-esque. However 8472 are not nearly as racist as the Vong, for one thing they were successfully negotiated with which is an enourmous difference, for another 8472 were much, much more powerful than the Vong (not to start any silly debates but The Borg Vs The Vong? The Borg would pwn them , actually that would be a good war, two utter opposites, imagine the Vong reaction to discovering assimilation, their priests would go absolutely incandescant ) The Vong ships can be destroyed through conventional means, 8472 are nearly invincible bar those special torpedoes. It is also worth noting that 8472 were actually provoked into their war which is a substantial cultural difference, and they may well say they want to destroy all life in the galaxy but then again every ship they came into contact with attacked them, when they realise that this was not necessarily always be the case they stood down from that attitude and gave peace a chance. The Vong on the other hand attacked first, never really negotiated except to further their cause through lies and trickery and could never be persuaded to give peace a chance.

Also, despite these arguments i would also say that not enough is known about 8472 to really compare them to the Vong in depth as the Vong are a far more thoroughly explored culture



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Old 01-21-2005, 01:55 AM   #17
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OMG ! Kurgan and Leper are turning this into a Trek forum

Kain, thats better HAHAHHAA !!! A Ventrue !!!! AHAHAHAA!!!


*bangs head on all 19 NJO novels*

* * *

Seriously though, Kurgan, does it really matter that similarities can be drawn between The Yuuzhan Vong and other sci fi baddies. This is standard in *any* literature. The Vong not being able to use the force is an extremely major point, yet all ppl *who havent read the business end of the series* seem to like saying is

"OMG : Biotechnology = 8472'
"OMG :
spoiler:
CHEWIE
is dead : NJO SuXXorzz"

I thoroughly enjoyed the NJO. Its been a year now, and the things that stick out in my mind arent biotech, but the *CHARACTERS*

there are some wonderfully written characterisations in the NJO. I never was too fond of Jacen Solo...but after reading 'Traitor'...wow. Nom Anor was another great character, a literary standard 'complex villain', subversive and selfish to the last.

Absolutely epics events unfolding, not only in battles but for characters emotionally. The NJO took SW EU into uncharted territory by doing this, and it was a breath of fresh air.... I cant wait for the post NJO book

* * *

as for Jaina, Im hopin that Jag gets killed or somethin, coz he's hella boring


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Old 01-21-2005, 02:53 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Astrotoy7

as for Jaina, Im hopin that Jag gets killed or somethin, coz he's hella boring
i was hoping he'd get bored and eye Tahiri up just cos it was cause trouble . But Jag does have "expendable character" written all over him. Im looking forward to reading Traitor and not looking forward to it in equal measure, because I do find Jacen quite irritating and Vegere is just.... wierd but just about everyone has come out in favor of that book so it must be worth reading. If nothing else I want to know where Jacens got to.



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Old 01-21-2005, 08:35 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Leper Messiah
However 8472 are not nearly as racist as the Vong, for one thing they were successfully negotiated with which is an enourmous difference, for another 8472 were much, much more powerful than the Vong (not to start any silly debates but The Borg Vs The Vong? The Borg would pwn them , actually that would be a good war, two utter opposites, imagine the Vong reaction to discovering assimilation, their priests would go absolutely incandescant )
Okay, just playing Devil's advocate here, but considering the Vong can stand up to Star Wars Tech, they must be immensely more powerful than Species 8472. Species 8472 could challenge the Borg, because the Borg are written as tactical idiots. Voyager can stand up to them because Species 8472 act like idiots.

Now from everything I know (as a layman anyway), "bio-tech" is a silly concept for sci fi, in terms of opposing good old fashioned technology. Bio weapons, a serious threat against advanced Starships? Heh, whatever.

Trek and Wars ships should be able to, quite literally, squash bioships like bugs. The engines of a bioship should rip it to pieces. Basically their "technology" works by magic. The whole "fluidic space" thing for Species 8472 was a kind of novel idea. Okay, so maybe somehow they are in this entirely different reality where stuff just works differently, okay fine. But they enter our space and their tech still works? Whatever.

The Vong shouldn't be a threat to SW tech either, since it uses biotech, which should be weak when it comes to space combat and galactic civilizations of that level. Unless you accept some kind of magic that makes it all work, then we just have to accept it, bad writing or not. But the kind of junk science that's supposed to allow the Vong to be all powerful is something I would expect to see in modern Trek more readily than Star Wars. To me it represents a new low in EU standards. Again, no offense to the lovers of the NJO series or Voyager.

ANYWAY, my point is that if the Vong can somehow match SW tech, then they are already more powerful than anything in Trek, including the Borg.


Quote:
The Vong ships can be destroyed through conventional means, 8472 are nearly invincible bar those special torpedoes.
Species 8472 were also killed by the splash damage from explosions of some Borg cubes. That's pretty conventional for Trek. There's a limit to how powerful those explosions can be.

Quote:
It is also worth noting that 8472 were actually provoked into their war which is a substantial cultural difference, and they may well say they want to destroy all life in the galaxy but then again every ship they came into contact with attacked them, when they realise that this was not necessarily always be the case they stood down from that attitude and gave peace a chance. The Vong on the other hand attacked first, never really negotiated except to further their cause through lies and trickery and could never be persuaded to give peace a chance.
But couldn't you argue that (again playing Devil's Advocate) that the Vong were dying, and they needed a new home, so they were desperate? But yeah, both species were "shoot first, ask questions later, don't trust these inferior races" type villians.

Quote:
Also, despite these arguments i would also say that not enough is known about 8472 to really compare them to the Vong in depth as the Vong are a far more thoroughly explored culture
Granted, Species 8472 are known from precisely 3 canon episodes (with brief mentions in a couple of other episodes), and the Vong are explored in the what... 12 books of the NJO so far?

They aren't identical, but I see them using the same stupid gimmick as a villian race, and that's what bugs me. First the fact that it's a goofy idea, and second that it's so derivative. That's all, really.


As to the NJO, yes, all criticism can be deflected by its fans, hooray. Don't let me stop you from liking something you're going to like anyway. And it is possible to like something while pointing out its faults. In this case I just don't see anything really grabbing me to want to read the series. I've frankly given up on the EU, except for a few games.


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Old 01-22-2005, 05:08 AM   #20
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right then, on the first count

I have in my time come across some endless analysis of Star Trek and Star Wars tech pitted against each other, and some come down on the side of Star Wars and some come down on the side of Trek. The truth is theres no way to really compare them unless there were (and there, probably thankfully, isnt) a canon Star Trek Vs Star Wars type film. You cant look at it in scientific terms because its just a story and nobody has a clue how any of the tech would work in anything but the most basic terms. Factor in things like continuity errors and its all downright unreliable. Also such arguments annoy me because they too have continuity errors in them, a particular example springs to mind from a pro-Star Wars tech argument which dismissed a comment from Star Trek The Next Generation that Federation ships were capable of avoiding damage from Lasers and suchlike (obviously heavily employed in Star Wars among other sci fi) without even having to use their deflector sheilds by saying that Star Wars Laser tech was probably different to the Star Trek Laser tech, however later in the same argument the point was made that some Star Wars vessels were capable of tracking cloaked ships in response to the possible advantage Romulan and Klingon ships might have over Star Wars ships, leaving out the possibility that these technologies might also be different. So trying to compare the technology of the two universes is hideously inaccurate. The one and only indesputeable canon advantage one has over the other is hyperspace travel, everything else is pure speculation. And The Borg possess such travel (however they call it transwarp) although nobody can really say which is the faster. Species 8472 on the other hand go even better than that, they can appear wherever the hell they want to.

on the second count

Borg Cubes a pretty sizeable craft, i forget exactly how big im not sure if any canon measurement was ever given, but then again a Vong ship could be destroyed by splash damage from the explosion of a Star Destroyer so theres no advantage of one over the other there.

on the third count

"shoot first, ask questions later, don't trust these inferior races" is a very broad description and doesnt really fit either race, in 8472s case it was "Get shot at first, and kill everything in sight which looks like it might have had even slightly something to do with it, dont trust these inferior races....yet" because it was shown they could be talked to. In the Vong's case their attitude was "examine, invade, kill the infidels and their abominations"

now i grant you ive seen better villain races than either. at the time of their introduction, 8472 annoyed me immensely, because a lot of fans had been waiting for Voyager to run into The Borg (pretty simple connection for the fans, Voyager gets stranded in Delta Quadrant, its already been established in other Trek series that thats where the Borg hang their coat, so it was eagerly anticipated and there was even a teaser episode where they found a derelict Borg Cube) they finally did and whats happened? The Borg are getting their arses handed to them. Nobody wanted to see that. The Borg were supposed to be the baddest of the bad and nobody wanted to see some new race wiping the floor with them. The Borg got totally ruined from that point out, their finest hours were in The Next Generation and the movie First Contact.
As for the Vong, I think the EU needed a major war that didnt get settled in three books but I think that there was room enough with what was already in the Star Wars universe to accomodate that (heh, maybe Jag Fel could have shot Jaina out of the sky instead of becoming number one "im going to be killed to make Jaina angry in a future novel" character, to return to the threads original topic for a second ). I agree that the Vong are not really Star Wars-style aliens but I dont think they are Star Trek style aliens either because Trek has never had a race that waged undiscriminating and unstoppable war against all races because they were "infidels" (with the argueable and somewhat ironic exception of The Borg , but i think youll agree that the Vong cant really be seen as based on the Borg in their philosophy or approach) The wierd thing about 8472 is theyre not Star Trek style aliens either. If I were you, I'd blame Babylon 5, theyve got a couple of choice races you could accuse NJO authors of taking a good, long look at



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Old 01-22-2005, 09:18 AM   #21
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A little question: What is pre NJO?
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Old 01-22-2005, 09:56 AM   #22
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Quote:
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A little question: What is pre NJO?
anything in the Star Wars universe that transpires before the New Jedi Order series of books which in terms of whats been released is just about everything



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Old 01-22-2005, 09:56 AM   #23
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The New Republic era. Between ROTJ and NJO. The "golden years" of EU
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Old 01-22-2005, 07:39 PM   #24
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Maybe we'll get lucky and the Yuuzahn Vong'll slaughter everyone of those little snot nosed prissy Jedi.

Of course, the only EU I'm worried about is that which I GM...in which most of the Jedi are already dead from a huge civil war within the ranks caused by Palpatine manipulating the Young Jedi Xavier and causing him to turn on his brother - Xane(hey, my friends aren't the most original guys in the world) and best friend Melchiah(of course, theres only like 6 Jedi in my universe). Xavier preaches that Luke has lost his mind(which he did) and that the Jedi should kill him.

Yea, Xavier's future = Teh Very Bleak

(because Melchiah is my guy)
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Old 01-23-2005, 02:37 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kain
Maybe we'll get lucky and the Yuuzahn Vong'll slaughter everyone of those little snot nosed prissy Jedi.

Of course, the only EU I'm worried about is that which I GM...

(because Melchiah is my guy)
I never considered RPG EU, but whatever rocks you boat...

and the Yuuzhan Vong are no longer a serious threat to the galaxy... lemme guess you've read <1 NJO book, so the NJO sucks right

* * *

Kurgan, you are forbidden to mention 8472 in this thread again !

JK....

seriously man, the biotech is NOT what the NJO is all about... if it was, then there are far better sci fi authors that deal with technology issues, at the expense of storyline and characterisation

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Old 01-24-2005, 06:09 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Astrotoy7
I never considered RPG EU, but whatever rocks you boat...

and the Yuuzhan Vong are no longer a serious threat to the galaxy... lemme guess you've read <1 NJO book, so the NJO sucks right
Well, the RPGs are endorsed by Lucas and they provide info for post-Empire gameplay, so technically... Of course, if it doesn't have the EU stamp of idiocy, it doesn't count.

Actually, I've wasted little...actually I've wasted no time reading any of the books. I've got friends who read them and give me the basis of most of the books. I just ain't talked to any of them recently - thus the inaccuracy of the Yuuzahn Vong threat.

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Old 01-25-2005, 02:01 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kain
- thus the inaccuracy of the Yuuzahn Vong threat.
and the spelling lolzrz

* * *

as for jaina, etc and the EU in general...
im really looking forward to the post NJO books. Im sure with the jedi will start to fight amongst themselves even more than they were in the NJO that'll be fun readin' !

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Old 01-25-2005, 02:37 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by StarWarsPhreak
The New Republic era. Between ROTJ and NJO. The "golden years" of EU
damn right

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Old 01-25-2005, 04:52 AM   #29
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Originally posted by Sivy
damn right

bah ! crapola...sure, you've got ppl like Jade, Thrawn, Karrde, Corran....cool new characters... but there is alot of absolute shyte too...

*superweapons.....galaxy gun, sun crusher, darksaber
*more clones than one could count...palpy, thrawn, luuke(lame), joruus(lame) ! LAME !
*gripping characterisations:

In the NJO, Matt Stover spends *an entire book* charting Jacens emotional and physical turmoil, at the hands of his Yuuzhan Vong captors, and teacher/tormentor Vergere.... in "The Golden Era" Timothy Zahn doesnt bother with this, he uses CAPITAL LETTERS !!!!

"YOU WILL KILL LUKE SKYWALKER!!!!!"
(LAME!) lolzrz

*Grand admiral Thrawn - genius ?? killed by the only beings he let gent anywhere near him....the noghri... *ahem* = not clever

This so called Golden Era is just like the 80s, it was cool *then* now, alot of it is laughable....time to move on...

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Old 01-25-2005, 05:31 AM   #30
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i will move on... when there's something worth reading to move on to. star trek just aint my bag baby.

i'm looking forward to the post-NJO stuff. i just hope to god it's not going to be written by more trekkies.




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Old 01-25-2005, 07:12 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Astrotoy7
In the NJO, Matt Stover spends *an entire book* charting Jacens emotional and physical turmoil
An entire book of whining? Yikes! I prefer the Star Wars of the movies where it is about good vs. evil. Not a philisophical debate.

New Republic and light/dark side of the Force 4evar!!

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Old 01-25-2005, 08:05 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by Prime
An entire book of whining? Yikes! I prefer the Star Wars of the movies where it is about good vs. evil. Not a philisophical debate.

New Republic and light/dark side of the Force 4evar!!
Talking to you and Siv is like talking to a pair of 5 year olds ! Most likely, between you youve read what 1/4 of the series.....

seeing I have both of you louts in the same place....


No, Prime - Traitor is hardly about whining....the opposite in fact. Jacen is often disturbingly contemplative in EU(even pre NJO)...you get to see what really makes him tick. After reading this book and the NJO finale, Jacen is one highly complex and interesting character, whom I cant wait to follow into post NJO....

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Old 01-28-2005, 10:00 AM   #33
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Post

How come Astrotoy is the only one putting down EU Debating Magic Cards? He's winning without competition and that's no fair!!


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Old 01-28-2005, 12:30 PM   #34
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kurgan, remember, preparation is the key to winning anything. Then again, its pretty scary that Astrotoy7 is so ready for repetitive forum arguments like this.


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Old 01-28-2005, 01:49 PM   #35
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its not scary. hes been hearing it for so long, hes had plenty of time to prepare.
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Old 01-30-2005, 05:03 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
How come Astrotoy is the only one putting down EU Debating Magic Cards? He's winning without competition and that's no fair!!
man, ive been doing the card thang since 1999 at TFN...I was all over it before y'all even knew it

Kurgan, you might've missed this one, it was made following the inevitable whining subsequent to the release of the OT/SE DVDs it's a personal fave



* * *
Kurgan, here's a couple just for you !!







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Old 02-08-2005, 08:18 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Leper Messiah
right then, on the first count

I have in my time come across some endless analysis of Star Trek and Star Wars tech pitted against each other, and some come down on the side of Star Wars and some come down on the side of Trek. The truth is theres no way to really compare them unless there were (and there, probably thankfully, isnt) a canon Star Trek Vs Star Wars type film.
While in a sense I agree, they're both fantasy and it's silly/doesn't matter, whatever, but such things can be fun to ponder about for certain fans (I've been among them at times, I admit). In "story terms" we have no idea what would happen because of stuff like "The good guys always win," time travel, deus ex machina, and other cliches of fiction.


Quote:
You cant look at it in scientific terms because its just a story and nobody has a clue how any of the tech would work in anything but the most basic terms.
If you look at some of the so-called "serious" verses discussions, they do implement some practical things that we might be able to guage, like the fact that it was estimated to have taken a Starfleet ship (which was considered highly advanced at the time of its launch) 70 years to cross from one end of the Milky Way Galaxy to another, going at maximum warp. That sets some paramaters on just how fast that ship can actually be. Of course Voyager DID get home in seven years, thanks to tons of luck and technobabble inventions, lost technological devices, and super beings who helped them along. The point is that such extraordinary means aren't needed by SW ships traveling similar distances.

Other ways that people have tried to determine just how "powerful" the tech really is is by measuring say how much energy it would take to fragment an earth-size planet, like the Death Star does, in such a short time. Likewise measuring hyperdrive by how long it takes Darth Maul to (apparently) get from Coruscant to Tatooine, or how long it takes the Death Star to circle the planet Yavin, or how long it took the Falcon to get from point A to point B.

There's a ton of assumptions of course, such as that the laws of physics are the same in both galaxies (Star Trek is supposed to take place in our galaxy, centuries in the future), and that the humans in both galaxies are the same as modern humans in terms of physiology, etc.

There's some suspension of disbelief involved too and a lot of agruments about what is canon and what isn't, but that's how it goes.

If you see a Star Destroyer "vaporizing" asteroids with single turbolaser shots, but the Enterprise has to fire and fire to destroy one (and it isn't even vaporized) that too can tell you some stuff about it.

Then there's basic stuff like the Ground Forces we've seen of Trek vs. the Ground Forces of wars. That sort of thing.

Quote:
Factor in things like continuity errors and its all downright unreliable.
True, but even then you can still get a certain basic ballpark estimate of how things would go, assuming you define your parameters ahead of time. If you're only talking about the movies, or if you rule out some source, then you have to define that too, but it's still possible to say "well it would be almost impossible for the Federation to beat the Empire" or "the Borg wouldn't stand much chance against the Rebel Alliance" based on all the available "evidence." Obviously a story-writer could come up with any number of ways to beat the odds, limited only by their imaginations.

Quote:
Also such arguments annoy me because they too have continuity errors in them, a particular example springs to mind from a pro-Star Wars tech argument which dismissed a comment from Star Trek The Next Generation that Federation ships were capable of avoiding damage from Lasers and suchlike (obviously heavily employed in Star Wars among other sci fi) without even having to use their deflector sheilds by saying that Star Wars Laser tech was probably different to the Star Trek Laser tech,
I remember this exact argument. It goes like this, in the TNG episode "The Outrageous Okana" Picard and Riker are derisive when they hear that some alien ships are using "lasers." "They won't even scratch our navigational deflector!"

This argument is taken to the extreme in some debates, with Trek side people saying "well the Death Star is said to use a super LASER so therefore it would be unable to harm the Enterprise."

Of course, such a claim is outrageous on the face, because such a blast destroyed a PLANET, in an explosive fashion. That would have taken so much energy it would have easily overwhelmed the shields of any federation starship, much less the weak navigational deflector of the Enterprise D. The argument would assume that somehow the Enterprise has a magical ability to defeat "lasers", regardless of magnitude, rather than a better explanation, which is that laser weapons that the E-D crew were familiar with tended to be fairly weak compared to phasers.

But the real counter to the "no lasers" argument is that the weapons used in Star Wars bear no resemblance to what we would call "lasers" at all. And there are numerous examples in real life of things having a name that has little to do with the original definition of what it is, and this applies to science fiction too (such as "blue prints"; or "rifles" when applied to science fiction weapons). Likewise, within the TNG canon there are other episodes where lasers are mentioned and they are not so harmless.

For example there is an episode ("Loud as a Whisper") where there is a civil war going on, and the combatants are said to be using "lasers" and the Enterprise is afraid to venture into that territory without shields raised. If lasers could not harm the Enterprise-D, why would they be afraid to enter for fear of his ship? Secondly there is the episode where the Enterprise D first encounters the Borg. The Borg use a "laser" to cut into the hull of the ship! If Lasers were stopped by the puny navigational deflector such a thing would have been laughed off. Yet it easily "carved them up like a roast" ... slicing out several sections of deck and allowing it to be captured by the Borg.

Sorry to get off track, but there you see why it's a goofy argument...

Sure we can say we don't know what turbolasers or phasers really are, since they don't exist in reality. However we can make some assumptions about their capability by what they have been shown to DO (ie: their effects) in the canon. That's the secret.

Quote:
however later in the same argument the point was made that some Star Wars vessels were capable of tracking cloaked ships in response to the possible advantage Romulan and Klingon ships might have over Star Wars ships, leaving out the possibility that these technologies might also be different.
This isn't something I'm super familiar with, but IIRC it's based on how in the EU, in the Thawn novels, the Empire (?) comes up with an advanced sensor system to detect cloaked ships, called "CGT Sensors."

And the way the cloaked ships are described in Star Wars (again, outside the movies, since we've never seen a cloak actually used onscreen), they are completely invisible to both the naked eye and to sensors, but the ship is also blind. In Star Trek cloaked ships can be detected a number of different ways, including "tachyon grids" and by tracking their ion trail and emissions. So we "know how they work" and based on that we can say how they would behave.

Quote:
So trying to compare the technology of the two universes is hideously inaccurate. The one and only indesputeable canon advantage one has over the other is hyperspace travel, everything else is pure speculation.
Not so, for those and other reasons. Trek has planet destroying weaponry, but in most cases the weapons have been shown to operate based on "chain reactions" against unshielded targets. The Death Star can apparently do it against a shielded planet, through sheer brute force. Also in terms of pure industrial capacity the Empire and the Republic in SW vastly outpaces any of the powers portrayed in Star Trek. The Empire is supposed to have over a million star systems, whereas the United Federation of Planets is less than 200.

Quote:
And The Borg possess such travel (however they call it transwarp) although nobody can really say which is the faster. Species 8472 on the other hand go even better than that, they can appear wherever the hell they want to.
Species 8472 defiately seem to be able to open vortexes all over, but less is known about them than the Borg. The transwarp abilities of the Borg are impressive by Trek standards, but in Voyager there is evidence that they need to build "conduits" in order to travel from one place to another.

This complicates the debate also, in that there is some evidence in the EU that SW ships need "navigational data" to make hyperjumps and that there are "hyperspace lanes" etc. Of course the rebuttal on the SW side is that they could simply send out probe droids to send back navigational data in unfamiliar space, and that it's not that they can't USE hyperdrive in unfamiliar territory, it's just risky.

The main problem with the Borg is that their combat tactics leave so much to be desired (obviously done for writing purposes so that the heroes would be able to defeat them, ie: limit their abilities), that they wouldn't seem to pose much creddible threat to anyone on the Star Wars side. They let people board their vessels and wander around without arresting them until they've started to do actual damage. They slowly lurch towards you a few at a time and try to grab you and insert "assimilation tubiles" into your neck, and have a major weakness against kinetic energy attacks (bullets, knives, bludgeons, etc) that their acclaimed "adaptability" seems to be no use for. They have never been shown to use ranged weaponry in infantry combat (the exception being renegade Borg who were seperated from the Collective and no longer under their control) in any canonical situation (unless of course this has happened in season 7 of Voyager, which is the only Star Trek I still haven't seen all of).

Quote:
on the second count

Borg Cubes a pretty sizeable craft, i forget exactly how big im not sure if any canon measurement was ever given, but then again a Vong ship could be destroyed by splash damage from the explosion of a Star Destroyer so theres no advantage of one over the other there.
http://www.merzo.net/

This site lets you compare sizes of all those ships, except the Vong.

Quote:
on the third count

"shoot first, ask questions later, don't trust these inferior races" is a very broad description and doesnt really fit either race, in 8472s case it was "Get shot at first, and kill everything in sight which looks like it might have had even slightly something to do with it, dont trust these inferior races....yet" because it was shown they could be talked to. In the Vong's case their attitude was "examine, invade, kill the infidels and their abominations"
Could the Vong be negotiated with? I'm not trying to say they are 100% identical and if you can show some differences then there is no clear shared ideas between the two. Rather there's enough similarities to show support for the notion that it's either 1) one was inspired by the other or 2) they both borrowed from the same source.

It could be that "bio-tech races" were just in chic at the time, and being "out of ideas" (having recycled the "Dark Jedi/Super Weapon threatens the galaxy/former Imperial with delusions of being the next Emperor" plots once too often) they just adopted this to see how it would sell.

I hear Babylon 5 had that too, but I can't say since I've only seen the pilot episode.

Quote:
now i grant you ive seen better villain races than either. at the time of their introduction, 8472 annoyed me immensely, because a lot of fans had been waiting for Voyager to run into The Borg (pretty simple connection for the fans, Voyager gets stranded in Delta Quadrant, its already been established in other Trek series that thats where the Borg hang their coat, so it was eagerly anticipated and there was even a teaser episode where they found a derelict Borg Cube) they finally did and whats happened? The Borg are getting their arses handed to them. Nobody wanted to see that. The Borg were supposed to be the baddest of the bad and nobody wanted to see some new race wiping the floor with them.
It's a classic villian cliche in Star Trek. Introduce badass villian species/race/whatever. Then make them weak and prone to become friends with the good guys, so you can make room for the introduction of another "badass" race/species for an enemy. Rinse, and repeat.

Quote:
The Borg got totally ruined from that point out, their finest hours were in The Next Generation and the movie First Contact.
Actually I'd say that First Contact was the start of the downfall of the Borg. Remember that they didn't assimilate people (Picard was an exception) in TNG, there was no evidence of that. Instead they went after technology. They were "not male or female," even. They didn't have the "assimilation tubiles" and they used slightly better tactics. They were a true collective, there was no "Queen." They were a lot more powerful, generally. Now sure, you can say that the Borg changed or that the Federation didn't fully understand them at the time and Q was lying, but there you go. At the time of the Borg's creation, when Roddenberry was still alive and in control of the franchise, that's how the Borg were. At the end of TNG you could surmise that the collective was in chaos and on the verge of collapse (Hugh's and Lore's renegade Borg were symptoms of the collapse of the Collective as a whole). They were simply no longer a threat to the galaxy they once were. Then all of a sudden in First Contact we're supposed to believe that this was no big deal, it was only a few Borg that were affected and everything we thought we knew about them was wrong. They're just space vampires with delusions of grandeur.

Quote:
I agree that the Vong are not really Star Wars-style aliens but I dont think they are Star Trek style aliens either because Trek has never had a race that waged undiscriminating and unstoppable war against all races because they were "infidels"
So the religious nature of the desire for conquest is what makes the Vong unique? Trek is notorious for using religion in its plots, especially where villians are concerned. The Dominion for example were worshipped as gods by their slave races and were seeking to conquer the Alpha and Beta quadrants. They did try to use any means to get what they wanted, and they were racists (believing "changelings" to be superior lifeforms).

The Borg too could be said to be religious fundamentalists, believing themselves to be perfect (or closer to perfection than other non-cybernetic races). They sought to impose their lifestyle on other races through conquest, ignoring the "rules of war" and other such things. Just because they don't talk about their gods (well, one could say that Seven of Nine worshipped the Omega Particle, in the episode "Omega Directive" and claimed that the Borg did in a sense) doesn't mean their goals were not similarly motivated.

Species8472 seemed to more be racists, but still.

As to the Babylon 5 quote, that's certainly interesting, but not having seen the series I can't really say for sure. Maybe they were copied off of by both SW NJO writers and the Voyager writers.

Voyager introduced Species 8472 in Season 3 of Voyager (1997). Babylon 5 began in 1994 (though I'm not sure what parts of the show you're talking about specifically).
The first NJO book was released in 2000.

Of course the Borg in Star Trek were introduced way back in TNG's season 2 (1988).


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Old 02-08-2005, 09:09 PM   #38
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mtfbwya
I win!

Hehe, nice


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Old 02-09-2005, 05:25 AM   #39
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KURGAN !! That has to be the longest post in LFN history !! I havent even seen monsters like that at the senate ! wow, you must have had a few spare hours today I have to get out my diary and block off some time to read it !!

glad you liked the cards Feel free to use them if you are such inclined, I will be

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Old 02-09-2005, 08:39 AM   #40
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You cant kill Jaina! I dont care what ya do to Jacen but leave Jaina alone! Besides, she sounds HOT!


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