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Old 04-12-2011, 04:20 PM   #1
bendarby24
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TSL BEN.DS rebalances mod

this rebalances mod rebalances the game to make it more harder and make TSL feel like a game. It has some restored content in it. this mod was made from HaVoKeR Ultimate Balancing Mod who so kindly let me have a starting point from that, but this mod is nothing like that now.
this mod is Unique because it Restores the tabletop Force progression system into KotOR 2.
Paragon created it in a different mod but did not Restore all off the system.

The SW:RPG tabletop system is being used here, first featured by West End Games d6 system and carried through into the d20 system some years later.
The original system of Force Powers had three. Control, Sense and Alter. Then you had Force effects, which were gained by using these three powers.
The use of these powers, their icons, etc. are restored content.

Here is how the system worked. Let's say you had Control 3d6, Sense 2d6 and Alter 1d6+2 (each pip in a Force power costs you experience points).
Okay so now you want to move an object with Telekinesis. The GM tells you it's an Alter power, so you roll 1d6+2 to defeat the difficulty according to the mass of the object. A 1kg object is a 5 difficulty. Get it?
So now you've used your Telekinesis and you write that down under Alter as one of your powers.

Next your Jedi character walks into a Canteena and wants to read somebody's mind. Oh that's a Sense power, the GM tells you. So you roll 2d6. Easy, right?

Well let's say you happen to be one of those pain in the butt players who absolutely has to start the game doing everything Palpatine does. Force Lightning, you say, I want to Force Lightning those Bounty Hunters over there.

The GM looks it up in the Sourcebook and tells you it's a combined power, very difficult to do. You have to combine a Sense and Alter roll (add them and divide by two). That's 1d6+2 here and the difficulty is 30. Come back when you're a Jedi Master...though making more than half the difficulty could get you a little spark, like a short ranged shock effect. Just not the full blown Palpatine Force Lightning that blasts enemies across the room.

Making any sense? Say you want to Heal yourself. A Control power. Heal somebody else, a Control and Sense power. Alter somebody's mind, Control, Sense and Alter. Stun a droid, Control and Alter.

Like I said this got brought across to the d20 system used in common with the NWN Aurora Engine used in KotOR/TSL. It was adjusted for the new Proficiency/Feat system, but essentially retained its characteristics where Force Powers were concerned. It did slap extra rules on them.

OTHER CHANGES: this make the game more harder and make the classes seem more Realistic, changes the party members stats to make them more usful.
also you can create more items in the workbench to help you (after you reach level 16 you can create light sabers) it makes the bosses much more stronger (you will have to use med packs and sheilds).
the grenades and rockets are more powerful now, mines will now will damage you and your party members.

Compatibility: this mod is Compatibile with all over mods that do not use the same files as this mod.
This new force power system is Compatibile with all over forcepower mods ( spells.2da) asslong as they have a tsl patcher.

Install/Uninstall Instructions:
copy and paste all off the files to your overdrive (would addvise you to have a clean overdrive)
to uninstall Delete the files from the overdrive folder!

If you discover any bugs, please report them to me by private message at the deadly streams or Holowan Labratory Forum
you can downloud from deadly streams

http://deadlystream.com/forum/files/...ebalances-mod/
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Old 04-12-2011, 07:19 PM   #2
VarsityPuppet
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Why are some exact phrases from Vanir's TableTop RPG tweak used in this readme? I know this doesn't necessarily entail plagiarism in the actual mod, but it's not a good sign, you know.


Last edited by VarsityPuppet; 04-12-2011 at 07:24 PM.
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Old 04-12-2011, 08:19 PM   #3
Qui-Gon Glenn
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^^^ My thoughts exactly!

Have you borrowed anything else from Vanir? Or, rather, did you get any permission from Vanir for any work of his you might have been "inspired" by?

I am not a hater of your mod, although I probably would not play it... it would take a great reason or lots of $$$ for me to play the game again any time soon. I am almost disturbed enough though to download your mod and Vanir's and examine the scripting, side-by-side, to see if your code is unique


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Old 04-12-2011, 09:01 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qui-Gon Glenn View Post
^^^ My thoughts exactly!

Have you borrowed anything else from Vanir? Or, rather, did you get any permission from Vanir for any work of his you might have been "inspired" by?

I am not a hater of your mod, although I probably would not play it... it would take a great reason or lots of $$$ for me to play the game again any time soon. I am almost disturbed enough though to download your mod and Vanir's and examine the scripting, side-by-side, to see if your code is unique
We don't have anything against you - but rules are rules, and you have to follow them.

Otherwise, if you did have permission from Vanir then forget we said anything.

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Old 04-13-2011, 12:36 AM   #5
vanir
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The similarity comes from using control/sense/alter master force powers which are already in the game shell, which Paragon originally pointed out in his before I made my mod.
It's a simple 2da edit and so are many rebalancing efforts like forceadjust and autobalance, so no original material is being plagiarised with anyone else's mods using the same idea.

My mod contained no creative material, just simple edits of the shell files or very basic script edits like a_makejedi script. It was just a general editing of the gameplay more like tabletop play which in turn dramatically affects the game difficulty especially at lower levels.
For example a Jedi Consular at 5th level has only three force powers available for those levels and only a "average human" attack class so you really have to avoid combat with them except as a last resort, which is more roleplay-like for that class.
A Jedi Guardian has more combat buff powers available from 6-11th level than any other Jedi class, who don't have some available because of how the tabletop force progression works. So that's more roleplay-like too because Jedi Sentinels have to rely on sneak attacks, special equipment and telekinesis to survive things like the Telos Mercinary Enclave because they can't buff, but you can really bang it on with a Guardian and it's a totally different play experience.
A Consular basically well runs away and uses long range force powers a lot, very hard to play a Consular at the Mercinary Enclave and not use some dark side powers which you're forced to take by the progression system, they do good damage at low levels. Playing a lightsider Consular is very hard at low-med levels which is also canonical, according to the Players Handbook Jedi Consulars were the most likely to go to the dark side as adventurers. Like the classical wizard it is only at med-high levels the Consular becomes ridiculously powerful and they do, particularly when a prestige class is added.

With the vanilla game you can basically play a Consular like a Guardian that just swaps some hit points for more force powers and reserve points, even the attack classes are the same in every class type. It kills roleplay and is probably the main thing that keeps the arcade element in TSL. Kotor I got around this by having such good scenes and plot content/development meant immersion was at a height to start with, and they used class specific attack tables so there was a combat difference between Jedi types, plus the fact the levels are so limited in Jedi classes that some generic similarity in gameplay between them wasn't a bad thing.
A 13th level Jedi in core rules has only just learned to build a lightsabre and only just earned the title of Jedi Knight, up to then each Jedi class is just a Padawan and heavily restricted by class specific power selection. In Kotor I that would mean the game was over before you got to enjoy being a true Jedi Knight at full power because of the 20th level restriction and non-Jedi multiclass.
I've only made very minor 2da edits to my Kotor I install to update it tabletop style, just played around with some progressions to distinguish between thug henchmen and professional soldiers in combat and things like that, it barely changes the gameplay.

So that's the thing with this kind of modding, which is mostly just editing and contains no original creative material. It is significant enough in TSL gameplay because the final product was so cut during development, so that it really stands out with character.
But if these are anyone's ideas it was Obsidian Entertainment. They put the unused master force powers, then Paragon was the first to use them in the manner dictated by tabletop RPG, where they're used as prerequisites for all other force powers and hence impact class progression individually.

Obsidian was originally going to use the Master Force Powers as functioning abilities, the Sense power I believe was going to add to Jedi Defence at no cost to maintain, the Control power iirc was going to add to lightsabre damage but cost force points to use. Ultimately I think they were replaced by the Force Enlightenment and scripted bonus powers like Beast Control as a plot focus, the Master Force Powers were just an early experiment at plot focus by Obsidian and never had the intention of mimicking the tabletop system except in name.

Anyway Paragon was the first to edit the spells.2da in this way. As with his sentiments on the subject, as long as no original creative material is being plagiarised, file editing ideas and even scripting variations are pretty much free reign especially when working from a common basis. Original creative materials are things like any custom equipment, modelling and skins.

Paragon's mod had a lot of original creative material, custom sabres and crystals, he also switched around the Jedi Sentinel and Consular but that was because he knew d20 WotC but not d6 WEG gaming.
TSL and WotC get a little confusing in class descriptions because of the change from the d6 original system, Jedi Weaponmaster prestige class is really an adaptation of the Old Republic Jedi Weaponmaster character archetype (started game with Jedi armour and two lightsabres), the Jedi Investigator prestige class was adapted into TSL as the Jedi Watchman prestige class, the Old Republic Jedi Watchman character archetype became the Jedi Sentinel class of the WotC d20 game and TSL.
TSL class descriptions are already actually fine, just one should keep in mind there aren't many guardians and just about everyone is a sentinel, but any class can take any prestige class they qualify for.

My rewrite also includes my workbench mod, in which you can make lightsabres from 15th level with skill requirements in awareness for single hilt, stealth for short sabres and demolitions for double sabres, because I also edited the skills availability for the Jedi classes, so everyone has awareness (can build single hilt sabres), but sentinels and consulars can build short hilts and guardians can build double hilts if they put points in stealth or demolitions skills.

You actually have full Jedi rank at 12th level because of force power progression, it would be better to have lightsabre construction at this level but the problem here is the scripted lightsabre quest. A 15th level requirement was the only way to ensure the quest was completed before you can build them at the workbench.

But again any similarity to my mods here is a matter of shell file edits and no original creative material is involved.

Plus I noticed the author credited myself and Paragon in his readme. I haven't got a problem with it.
It doesn't look like he got around my trouble of scripting automatic master power progression, or making the whole mod (importantly the dialog.tlk) in Patcher form.
Either or both of those two things would be an improvement on either my mod or this. Something I've been meaning to get around to but time on TSL is limited. Like QG Glenn said for one thing by this stage anything TSL is very repetitive and worn out, it's hard to find inspiration for flight sim projects sometimes.

Last edited by vanir; 04-13-2011 at 12:42 AM.
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Old 04-13-2011, 01:10 AM   #6
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OH wow. I'm really sorry bendarby. I got carried away with the phraseology used in your readme. Had a big lecture on plagiarism in my English class.

I'm terribly sorry.

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Old 04-13-2011, 01:42 AM   #7
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hmm I'm not shure. Btw it sounds, I'd say this is no mod for me. But it might be a good thing to improve force power usage... I'm not shure....
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Old 04-13-2011, 02:09 AM   #8
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The trick is that TSL started off released very arcady and that's its problem. So the ideal rebalance mod doesn't make anything tougher, it restricts character progression back to tabletop core rules.

This should actually happen when "core rules" difficulty was set (the script allows originally for 5 difficulty levels for TSL but was cut to 3). There should've been gameplay changes like this mod when you selected "core rules" or "ridiculous" difficulty settings.

What it does is effectively makes Jedi much more Padawan-like until 12th level. They are much more unique between classtypes. All the classes have attack tables reintroduced and other minor changes work to make the game more mature, the classes more defined, the ability to get yourself cut to shreds if you're not careful very present.
But then by the time you're passing 20th level you're the TSL Arcade Fantastico Annihilation that you're used to. Which actually makes it more fun being that powerful, because you don't start out that way like you do in vanilla TSL.

But yeah the gameplay change works by imposing restrictions on your character, by limiting your level up choices and benefits and making them more class specific.
Anyone remotely into arcade gaming won't like it. The first hurdle for Gamemasters in tabletop play is to explain to Players why they can't just start the game with the treasure from the end of the adventure, and why seemingly simple monsters are so tough at first level. FPS shooters don't have that, you start the same as you end, it's on joystick skill and other than that nothing more than game familiarity, levels don't mean crap except for new equipment and different skyboxes.
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Old 04-13-2011, 02:36 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VarsityPuppet View Post
OH wow. I'm really sorry bendarby. I got carried away with the phraseology used in your readme. Had a big lecture on plagiarism in my English class.

I'm terribly sorry.
Hey VP, thanks for having my back. I kind of liked the way everyone jumped up with modder comaraderie and The Code. At worst a good signpost for fresh modders to ensure that no original creative material is reproduced in their mods without getting permissions as a general rule, but basic file edits with kotortool are free game, as with common extended sources (like RPG sourcebooks), otherwise your own models and ideas.

Scripting is a bit weirder because you can independently reproduce material since there is a finite way of scripting desired effects, and there's a lot of combined efforts developing them, especially for new modders. Case by case basis for this, people know if they just copied and should talk with original authors if available about including it in a mod, you're almost never going to get a no.
I only even mention it because there is a chance someone shows you a copyright piece of material in order to help modding efforts. But more than that it's just polite...stoffe and other staff give scripting examples to modders occasionally but it's standard procedure that if you didn't learn anything from their time and just want to copy/paste it to a mod, to ask them if it's okay for you to use it in your mod.
So scripting is a bit weird in the plagiarism rules. Sometimes yeah, others nah. Depends how elaborate, if it creates an original creative virtual environment and that was copied. In this case that environment was created by West End Games originally.
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