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Old 02-26-2005, 08:04 AM   #41
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Ah, well... for the sake of this particular argument there has to be.

That's an issue for another day.

On a totally unrelated note:

I notice Yuftser is perusing the boards with us at the moment...

Maternity leave, Yuf?



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Old 02-26-2005, 08:10 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by edlib
I notice Yuftser is perusing the boards with us at the moment...
...Hmm, nope... But I do see a Yufster... </pedant>

Quote:
Originally posted by edlib
Maternity leave, Yuf?
Isn't it a bit early, shouldn't it still take some month?




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Old 02-26-2005, 08:19 AM   #43
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Curses, Dahkter MikKoi; I'll get you yet! How dare you correct my spelling, which is always totally empekibel...


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Old 02-26-2005, 08:40 AM   #44
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Originally posted by edlib
Curses, Dahkter MikKoi; I'll get you yet! How dare you correct my spelling, which is always totally empekibel...
Empwhat? Who's dead, Jim?





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Old 02-26-2005, 12:33 PM   #45
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"Welshie!!!"



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Old 02-26-2005, 05:19 PM   #46
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Apparently I'm not allowed to access the site and the webmasters were notified of it.


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Old 02-26-2005, 06:06 PM   #47
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Well, it was working for me earlier. Don't like the ol' hot-linking, eh? Oh, very well... be that way.

The clips were off this site: http://www.gotfuturama.com/Multimedi...Sounds/4ACV11/

Clips #11 and #9.

Kinda ruins the effect if you ask me.


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Old 02-27-2005, 01:48 AM   #48
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...He's dead, Jim...




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Old 02-27-2005, 11:38 AM   #49
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My two cents:

Can God create a rock that's so heavy that He can't move it? No.

Does that mean he's not all-powerful? No.

Creating a rock so heavy that God himself can't move it is logically impossible. In fact, it's meaningless - it's like saying can God create a square circle? No, of course He can't - because a square has four sides and a circle has none. Another example would be "can God create blah blah blah". The answer is no because it doesn't mean anything.

So God can't do the logically impossible, but that doesn't mean that He is not all powerful.

Of course, things that appear impossible for us may be possible in higher dimensions etc. etc. as Joshi and others have pointed out, but we can't possibly comprehend that so it's a bit of a dead end for an argument.
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Old 02-28-2005, 11:54 AM   #50
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Well there goes all my fun.
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Old 02-28-2005, 01:10 PM   #51
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Don't blame me, blame St Thomas Aquinas.

And as an extra: that colour spectrum is not every light in existence. I heard that buttlerfilies can see another colour, but I can't confirm that (it sounds a bit weird). What seems to be true is that there are other colours, as mind boggling as that is. Quantum physics is another strange thing - stuff like particles being in two places at once etc. Once you accept that weird things like that happen in the Universe and we know nothing about them (String Theory is another I've just thought of) the concept of God starts to make a lot more sense. Well it does for me, anyway.
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Old 02-28-2005, 09:59 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gabez
[...] the concept of God starts to make a lot more sense. Well it does for me, anyway.
...Quite the contrary for me...




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Old 03-01-2005, 12:55 AM   #53
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In order for string theory to be right, it would have to exsits on 11 dimensions. There is no being on earth (as yet we know about) that has the brain capacity to think in 11 dimensions, or to see 11 dimensions. Whether extra terrestrials from other worlds can is another matter, but then we'd have to believe in the multiverse and that's a whole other bucket of eggs (if you hold your eggs in a bucket).

But frankly, in order for something to exist, it must be percieved, by a third party to itself, and the only logical third party to the 11th dimention is God, the only higher being I can think of that could think in 11 dimensions.

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Old 03-01-2005, 01:05 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by Joshi
Whether extra terrestrials from other worlds can is another matter, but then we'd have to believe in the multiverse and that's a whole other bucket of eggs (if you hold your eggs in a bucket).
...The multiverse theory, the theory about 11 dimension and the theory about extraterrestial life are three completely different buckets (not even containing the same things), they don't have anything to do with each other!

Quote:
Originally posted by Joshi
But frankly, in order for something to exist, it must be percieved
...Come again? Not neccessarily, no...
And anyway, that statement is pure philosophical, you can't possibly prove or disprove it, it's like that "If a tree falls over and there's nobody there to hear it, does it make a sound?"-thing...




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Old 03-01-2005, 01:35 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by Joshi
In order for string theory to be right, it would have to exsits on 11 dimensions.
Minimum.
Quote:
There is no being on earth (as yet we know about) that has the brain capacity to think in 11 dimensions, or to see 11 dimensions.
I say we have the capacity, but not the need to do so. It's also stupid to try to visualize it because this only works for 3 dimensions. (Or some more if we 'use' phaserooms.)

Quote:
But frankly, in order for something to exist, it must be percieved
MAN no, of course not.
WHO then percieved earth so that it can exist and life can develop? GOD? Then tell me who percieved "God" so that he can exist and "create" earth?


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Old 03-01-2005, 02:35 AM   #56
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MWAHAHAHAHA! The wheels keeps burning rubber!

Bloody good point Ray, never thought of that.
My theory is that Jesus existed, but was just a VERY clever man well ahead of his time.
Religion is just an evolution in the human brain to keep ourselves from going mental. Our brains have developed so much that it needs to give itself a reason to exist (not that religion is that reason), rather than just to breed, considering we've managed that with considerable success.
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Old 03-01-2005, 02:36 AM   #57
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I was merely expressing how such philosophical arguments can be put into an argument as support without any real proof, sort of a degrees of seperation thing. Basically, there is no real proof, people mainly just take it on faith.

And Dr McCoy, string theory, the multiverse and extra terrestrials, may not have much to do with each other, but you can't seperate them completely, they're still a part of the unknown and therefore can be related.

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Old 03-01-2005, 02:41 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by Joshi
And Dr McCoy, string theory, the multiverse and extra terrestrials, may not have much to do with each other, but you can't seperate them completely, they're still a part of the unknown and therefore can be related.
...Yeah, like, say, a chicken and a kilt can't be seperated completely, they're still a part of all known things and therefore can be related....




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Old 03-01-2005, 03:10 AM   #59
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That's almost the complete opposite of what I said. Because we understand all about chickens and understand mostly about kilts (seriously, it's a skirt) we know that they're generally not connected unless a scotsman gets really drunk on a summers night.

Aliens, multi-dimensions and string thoery on the other hand aren't fully understood. they're not even canon, we don't know whether any of them exist, in order for our minimum of 11 dimensions to exist, we'd have to say that string theory is more than just a theory, but considering it isn't, it is still just a theory. We are yet to come into contact with extra terrestrials in the universe (who may or may not have better technology and understanding and therfore may have a better knowledge of string theory) and therefore, they are still a theory and we may find that such things exsist in other universes, which opens up another theory.

So, in essence, because, we don't know know about all of this, we can safely say, for now, that these things may be related. But there is no proof to say that they aren't apart from the fact that these theories on their own have not been proved and therefore cannot be used to support and argument which was my point in the first place.

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Old 03-01-2005, 03:19 AM   #60
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Seriously, we _do_not_ understand the chicken. We do not even know what came first, the chicken or the egg. Ok, we do know more than about aliens, but err.. only within 3/4 dimensions.

As for the chicken - kilt connection, first thing coming to mind is: electrons, protons, neutrons. hm.


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Old 03-01-2005, 04:31 AM   #61
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The egg.

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Old 03-01-2005, 05:09 AM   #62
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Yes, but was there a chicken in it?


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Old 03-01-2005, 05:32 AM   #63
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In potential, I suppose there's no definate line you could draw in evolution that could define where the egg held a baby chicken, but in effect, if you could, the egg would have to come first.

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Old 03-01-2005, 06:11 AM   #64
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Hmm. The 'classic' egg came before the 'classic' chicken. But on the other hand, there definitly must have been some creature that dropped the first egg ever. Maybe some fishy thing. Maybe some kind of special mutation or just a development that stepped over the line, from "no it's only slimy" to "hey, almost eggy".


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Old 03-01-2005, 01:46 PM   #65
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I have a degree in Ecology, trust me the chicken came first cos it evolved.
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Old 03-01-2005, 04:40 PM   #66
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But did it evolve from another animal that is born in eggs? The chicken's egg may have been another animal's egg before it.

You'd have to say "Which came first, the chicken or the chicken egg?" In which case, after years of evolution, the chicken egg, which would hold the first evolved animal considered the chicken, came first.


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Old 03-02-2005, 11:57 AM   #67
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No not true. Archaeopteryx was the first bird and that was evolved from a lizard (a sort of salamander thingy).
Archaeopteryx then started to lay eggs, and so forth until the chicken. So in theory the egg came first but that's only in it's modern form.
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Old 03-02-2005, 03:43 PM   #68
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That's exactly what I'm saying, Brighty. This "Archaeopteryx" evolved into a chicken, meaning eventually, one of it's generations eggs would hold a creature close enough to be called a "chicken". So the chicken egg came before the chicken, even if the egg came before the chicken egg.


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Old 03-02-2005, 06:22 PM   #69
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No. There was just a mysterious egg and a chicken came out and layed another egg. Meaning the EGG came 1st.




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Old 03-03-2005, 09:42 AM   #70
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But then you'd have to come up with a definitive date for the birth of the chicken.
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Old 03-03-2005, 03:03 PM   #71
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How long have chickens ben around?




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Old 03-03-2005, 04:28 PM   #72
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But who draws the line between when it stops being an archaeopteryx and becomes a chicken? If that line is crossed while the chicken is alive, then the chicken came first. If the line is crossed when the sperm and egg meet and the traits become just right to make a chicken, then the egg comes first.


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Old 03-03-2005, 05:08 PM   #73
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I think it was a dinosaur that god changed into a chicken!




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Old 03-03-2005, 05:14 PM   #74
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Quote:
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But who draws the line between when it stops being an archaeopteryx and becomes a chicken? If that line is crossed while the chicken is alive, then the chicken came first.
But evolution is about changed happening in generations. Sure, animals physically change when they are alive, but they are still not considered to be evolving. The evolution comes during the changes of genes or the offspring during reproduction.

...

Right?


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Old 03-03-2005, 05:25 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kj°len

...

Right?
That's a definate maybe.


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Old 03-03-2005, 05:32 PM   #76
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No. You go roll around in nuclear waste and BAM! Evolution hits you right there.....or kills you.




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Old 03-03-2005, 11:35 PM   #77
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I have my Evolution notes from lectures here and it says that it's called "Divergance Evolution", Meaning that Archaeopteryx evolved into something else and that split into a few new species then that split into other new species.
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosit...divergence.gif

As there is no way to measure the exact date that the chicken or the egg was made then you have to say that in theory the ameoba came first.
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Old 03-03-2005, 11:44 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally posted by VikingLarz
No. You go roll around in nuclear waste and BAM! Evolution hits you right there.....or kills you.
That's not evolution, that's mutation.

Also, a summarize:

(1) "Producing" eggs is not a privilege given to chickens (read: BIRDS), many animals use this form of reproduction nowadays.
(2) Long before birds or even "pre-birds" evolved, eggs where a common form of reproduction, so the EGG ITSELF was there before even the first birds came up. Although that's a bit untrue, because it seems that birds directly evolved from dinosaurs. But mammals somehow too, so I feel free to ignore that.
(3) If you ask the question "What came first, the chicken or the egg?" the only spockian answer is: teh egg. Because eggs came before chicken-birds.
(4) If you ask the question the right way: "What came first, the chicken or the chicken-egg?" we have to differ things a bit, because: (A) only a chicken would be able to produce a chicken-egg. There cannot be a chicken-egg coming from a pre-chicken. Then a (the first) chicken is a must for a chicken-egg to be produced. But that's only if we consider a chicken-egg as "egg that came out of a chicken". But if we say that (B) the chicken-egg is defined by "egg that contains a chicken", the chicken-egg must have been there first.



So.. what's a chicken-egg?


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Old 03-04-2005, 12:04 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally posted by RayJones
So.. what's a chicken-egg?
...As long as it tastes good, I don't care...




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Old 03-04-2005, 05:25 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally posted by Brighteyes
I have my Evolution notes from lectures here and it says that it's called "Divergance Evolution", Meaning that Archaeopteryx evolved into something else and that split into a few new species then that split into other new species.
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosit...divergence.gif

As there is no way to measure the exact date that the chicken or the egg was made then you have to say that in theory the ameoba came first.
okay, so question, just so we know. Evolution doiesn't occur to a single animal when it's alive does it, it happens with tiny changes and so on with their offspring. Like the dodo which used to be able to fly until it came to an island (esclapycos?) where it didn't need to fly (food on the ground an all) so it's offspring had slightly smaller wings, (like one out of five of their offspring and that's not canon) and then they had offspring with slightly smaller wings and so on until they couldn't fly and then man came along and ate them all because they were easy to catch and apparently very tasty.

That's evolution though, right?

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