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Old 02-17-2005, 11:41 PM   #1
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The Pub Council

You know when you sit in a pub with your mates and you try putting the world to rights after a few pints?
You know! All those crazy conversations you have that are worldwide revelations and would make you a great political leader amongst the humble man.

Ok, heres my best one from years ago:
(Soz if i offend....)

If god is almighty, then he must be able to do ANYTHING right?

a) Tell him to make a rock he can't move

Figure it out and lemme know ladies
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Old 02-18-2005, 12:11 AM   #2
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This has been already discussed in the "Senate Chambers" .. with no *valueable* result to leave it at that. It's a rather stupid err.. thingy. Just like "there is no truth" or something.


On the other hand.. if there is a rock that can't be moved, why not move everything around it? So first thing to determine is can there be a non-moveable rock in a relative universe like ours?


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Old 02-18-2005, 01:42 AM   #3
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ithis isnt the answer but in reply:
if there can't be an unmoveable rock in the relative universe how can there be a god?
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Old 02-18-2005, 01:48 AM   #4
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Because god makes the rules.

So what if he has set the rule for himself never to let there be a rock that is un-liftable? When you "tell him to make a rock he can't move", you're a tempting your god and therefore burn in hell forever. :D

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Old 02-18-2005, 02:20 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by Brighteyes
this isnt the answer but in reply:
if there can't be an unmoveable rock in the relative universe how can there be a god?
This is not the reply but in answer: If there can be an unmovable rock how can there be a god?

The point is, screw god, first determine what is unmovable. You can't say "make it unmoveable" if 'unmovability' itself is non-existant. Even the God of Saturn would laugh at you stupid human worm because of that.


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Old 02-18-2005, 02:36 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by RayJones
[...] screw god [...]




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Old 02-18-2005, 03:08 AM   #7
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Simple answer for all.

There is no rock.*

But I do have to say this, God could make an unmovable rock, he just doesnĺt feel like it right now.

Plus, if God is omnipotent, that means he lives outside the conventional 4 dimensions of our world where mundane rocks are a factor and where anything is possible, even the impossible, which is why so much of religion contradicts itself, it only makes sense where he comes from.

You could say I'm just saying all of this as a) a cruel joke to torment religious people, which is wrong considering I am deeply religious, or b) a way of rationalizing the acts and theories surrounding God in an attempt to prove to myself that he exists.

These are both wrong, I have faith in the fact that he exists, I believe in my head that he is an entity, or an essence of life, but is seen to me to be male, which is why I refer to him as a he.

And I also believe that to believe in God is to believe in an entity that can create rules and then break them at will. An unmovable rock is a rule. Rule: you cannot move this rock; it has been created outside the normal conventions of rule and order so that it cannot be moved at all.

Who's to say God cannot now break that rule.



*And Infinity = 0

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Old 02-18-2005, 03:24 AM   #8
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Ok well, let's just say you want to "see" him try to move that rock with his hands (being human shaped en all).

Thing is if he makes the rock = he can't move it
Whereas the alternate is obviously that it just can't be done.

Hence, no such thing as almighty.

See the answers your giving are always the ones that crop up, about him using the power of the cosmos or he makes the rules.
What about plain simple just move it.
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Old 02-18-2005, 03:37 AM   #9
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Quote:
Dear Joshi,

if you continuessly decide to pick on my belief that infinity is in fact _NOT_ 0 but more a finity which is simply not finite within the limits of infinity, and even if you're doing it in a decent way, I'm afraid i have to tell mum. Also I'm very surprised that you didn't catch my Futurama-quote. Wait, no, I am not really surprised I guess.

-Ray

So now to god. I think the basic idea here is that if god is omnipotent and he can make a rock to 'heavy' for him to move, so that he can't move it, how can he be omnipotent? Or how can he be omnipotent if he can't make a rock he can't move?

And if we talk about "moving" and "rocks" we surely have to talk about the 4 dimensions. And in our universe, there is no such thing like an unmovable thing.


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Old 02-18-2005, 05:20 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by RayJones
On the other hand.. if there is a rock that can't be moved, why not move everything around it?
Too obvious a referance to be commented on. Despite that fact that the makers seem to think they were the first to do that Matrix spoof in that episode.

Oh, and if you tell mum about my infinity theory pissing you off, I'll have to tell her about last Thursday night. You know what I mean.

Brighteyes, even in human form, he could move it, he'd just need to change the rules enough so he could do it.

"These rules are exactly the same as you would find in a computer program, some can be bent, others, broken."

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Old 02-18-2005, 05:29 AM   #11
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Everything in the universe is moving, at all times... so this is a moot discussion.

Even if something was unmovable, all God would need to do is create a black hole nearby and that would clear up the problem real fast.

Like Ray said: even if something is a problem within the 4 dimensions of what we recognize as space-time, an omnipotent being could slip into a higher dimension and solve the problem easily.

Think of a group of flatlanders (theoretical 2-dimensional beings) coming across something in thier way that they couldn't pass or move, such as a length of string or rope. To them it would be an unbreachable barrier since most of it's bulk exists in a higher dimension... whereas any one of us could come along and help them out by picking it up for them.


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Old 02-18-2005, 03:05 PM   #12
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God could make a rock He couldn't move, but that would only be true if He downsized Himself, therfore making himself unable to move it, until He proved His point, then actually TRIED. Then he could move whatever he wants. Sorta like when He became Jesus. When He was human form, He couldn't directly do all of the stuff He originally could in his God form.


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Old 02-18-2005, 06:57 PM   #13
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Could Jesus microwave a burrito so hot that he himself could not eat it?


Just because people think what I say don't make sense, doesn't mean I don't like popsicles.
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Old 02-18-2005, 07:47 PM   #14
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That bash quote got negative scored Skinkie.


"Kj°len is a pretty cool guy. 'e doesn't afraid of anything and 'e doesn't anything about anything."
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Old 02-19-2005, 08:13 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Skinkie
Could Jesus microwave a burrito so hot that he himself could not eat it?
.................................................. ........................Microwave?
Burrito?
oh my dear friend..

1. Why would he use something created by a human?
2....Why a burrito?
3. Gosh..
He can make the sun fall down on the burrito and..
Hey..Jesus is dead!
..Either that or he is really old.
And senile.
And...
Gosh, why am i even writing this??
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Old 02-20-2005, 03:16 AM   #16
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So.....er....now that that's unresolved, anybody else got any pearls of wisdom?
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Old 02-20-2005, 04:01 AM   #17
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I think it's very much resolved, you just can seem to admit it. The question itself is flawed enough.

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Old 02-20-2005, 10:16 AM   #18
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Resolved? Ok let's review the answers:

a)God moves the earth instead
b)a black hole
c)"change the rules" eg: cheat, bit of blasphemy there old boy
d)"he dosent feel like it"

Resolved is it?

Ray's the only one that's made a decent argument of it.
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Old 02-21-2005, 01:02 AM   #19
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So you're saying he should follow the rules in an attempt to move an object he changed the rules to create in the first place?

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Old 02-21-2005, 02:05 AM   #20
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That's really the question: How much does he bend / break the rules? Is god obliged to play fair? Is being all-mighty also being all-powerful?

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Old 02-21-2005, 03:58 AM   #21
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EXACTLY JOSHI!

He can't bend the rules to make the rock, and he can't bend them to move them!

= All powerful, meaning the ability to do anything "is NOT possible".
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Old 02-21-2005, 09:16 AM   #22
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I didn't think this was a question with a right or a wrong answer.

I hope we aren't being graded.


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Old 02-21-2005, 06:13 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by edlib

I hope we aren't being graded.
I'm freakin out man.


Cellar door
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Old 02-22-2005, 02:43 AM   #24
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God is allpowerful. no one said anything about him performing the imossible. If the impossible is truley impossible then power has nothing to do with it.

Imagine something more colourful than you can imagine.

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Old 02-22-2005, 02:52 AM   #25
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That all depends on the mentality of the person.
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Old 02-22-2005, 03:17 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Joshi
Imagine something more colourful than you can imagine.
.. and paint it using two colors.


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Old 02-22-2005, 04:24 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Joshi
Imagine something more colourful than you can imagine.
*Hnnnnnn.......*
Waaah!
Quote:
and paint it using two colors
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Old 02-22-2005, 04:33 AM   #28
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Aww c'mon, it's easy!

..


...



.
..


See?


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Old 02-22-2005, 05:43 AM   #29
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I see a neon Green and Purple Sea-Shell?

What does this tell you about me?


Listening to you, I get the music
Gazing at You, I get the heat
Following you, I climb the mountain
I get excitement at your feet

Right behind you, I see the millions
On you, I see the glory
From you, I get opinions
From you, I get the story

[From the Who's album, TOMMY]
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Old 02-23-2005, 04:58 PM   #30
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Something about drugs, I'm sure.


Just because people think what I say don't make sense, doesn't mean I don't like popsicles.
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Old 02-24-2005, 04:45 AM   #31
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But you just imagined it, it has to be more colourful than you can imagine.

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Old 02-24-2005, 06:03 AM   #32
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If I only know black and white (These classic colors, y'know?) i can only imagine something black and white. But i can imagine there may be more than black and white. Thus I can not exactly imagine something with three colors, but do not exclude the possibility that there is something with three colors. Ergo, while I can only imagine 2 colors I also can imagine something having 3 colors. I just don't know which color it could be.


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Old 02-24-2005, 06:14 AM   #33
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Ray - You could join the elite sunday pub club. Very good.
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Old 02-24-2005, 06:27 AM   #34
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But you're only thinking of the idea of a third colour, as apposed to the actual third colour. It's colour in potential.

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Old 02-24-2005, 09:14 AM   #35
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I've tried imagining colours that I can't think of, and when you think of the scale, they just don't exist. Depending on the light and hue, etc:



That is suppose to be every colour in existance.


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Old 02-25-2005, 02:38 AM   #36
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On a fifth dimensional plane, they may exist. We currently can't think in five dimensions (we can hardly think in four) so it may be impossible to imagine something more colourful than you can imagine, just as it is impossible to think of making a rock that can't move, but in a higher plane, it may be possible.

I'm basically demonstrating how the initial question in this thread is just as impossible to our minds as my question, but may not be impossible to a being on a higher plane of life.

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Old 02-26-2005, 06:36 AM   #37
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We use (apparently) only 10% of our brains. So whose to say we can't imagine these things?
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Old 02-26-2005, 07:08 AM   #38
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Oh, how long have i been bothered with that?
But now that it comes in mind...
Why would god create humans who could only use 10% of their brain??
Maybe the other 90% would make us able to...Move the rock that can't be moved?
Or..move normal rocks using your brain?
Or...Send pm's without a forum!!!!!!
Whoa!
I want those 90%!
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Old 02-26-2005, 07:38 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by Joshi
I'm basically demonstrating how the initial question in this thread is just as impossible to our minds as my question, but may not be impossible to a being on a higher plane of life.
Yeah, that was the point I was trying to make with my little "Flatlander" diversion...

An omnipotent being is not limited to the 4-dimensional constraints that we ourselves are burdened with.
In fact, it is impossible for us to even truly imagine some of the things that exist within the universe that we can observe... For example:

Can you imagine how hot it is at the surface of the sun? How about at it's core?
Can you conceive of how far it is to the other side of our solar system? Or Galaxy? Or to another galaxy?

We can't acually imagine these things since there is nothing in our own lives to compare them to. we might be able to play with the concepts intellectually, but not really truly have any grasp of them, just like Joshi's colors.
You cannot concieve of any colors that your eyes can't reproduce, even though the infrared and ultraviolet spectrums continue on beyond the visible light spectrum in both directions. We know they exist, we even have machines that can detect and record them, but they have to output that information as light within the visible light spectrum so that we can do anything with them.

It's just like sounds we cant hear. What does a dog whistle sound like? Is it a nice sound? Musical?

The whole God vs. the Rock question falls into the realm of trying to define something we simply cannot conceive into terms that we can... something multi-dimensional into something that we can fathom with our own experience.

Could God create a rock that He himself cannot move? If he really had reason to; Yes.
Could He then move it, if he had need to move it? Yes.
Is that a contradiction? No.
Would He do it, knowing that He would have to break the very rules that He himself put into motion? Ahhh... that is the real question here, and the one that we cannot ever answer, for to truly answer it we would have to know the mind of God... and that is something we ephemeral mortals cannot not ever know, like Joshi's colors.

Can we deal with that? Probably not. We are saddled with the unfortunate need to define things as either possible and impossible... but that's only because we are not the ones who make the rules, and we can only see the universe as it is though the most limited lens. For us things are possible, or they are not.

Example: We are limited in our exploration of the Universe that we can see by the speed of light. Is God limited by it as well? After all, it is a rule that He imposed on the universe, shouldn't he be subject to it as well?


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Old 02-26-2005, 07:52 AM   #40
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...And there's still the possibility that there is no god...




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