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Old 03-30-2005, 07:53 PM   #1
Darth Andrew
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Are Stormtroopers...

enlisted men or clones? From the movies, I thought that they were enlisted men, but while reading a magizine I saw a Star Wars Trading Card Game ad, and one of the cards shown was the scout trooper. Below its name it said something like: Imperial Clone Scout Trooper. So does anyone have any reliable sources on which is it???
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Old 03-30-2005, 08:09 PM   #2
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They started out as all clones but then they started massive recruiting programs after the clone wars from what I understand.
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Old 03-30-2005, 09:43 PM   #3
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Apparently Lucas now intends them to be Clones, all.

This from the AOTC director's commentary. According to a LucasFilm rep (Pablo Hidalgo if I'm spelling his name right) in the OT era they've mixed in other "templates" for Clones from a variety of sources other than Jango and that's why they don't all look exactly alike (or like Temura Morrison).

So yeah, what we all thought based on the EU seems to have changed...

It's possible that the retcon will be that after the Emperor died the Remnant didn't have enough money or time to build more clones and/or the tech was lost and they were forced to use recruites or draftees.

We could say that any EU characters that are clearly not clones who claim to have been in the Stormtrooper ranks must have been non-clone Stormtrooper OFFICERS (Academies are for officers) rather than just plain troopers. Or else they were clones and somehow didn't realize they were (amnesia? brainwashing?).

Another problem is that even if the fact that they were clones was known only to the Senate and Palpatine's inner circle, it would be strange that nobody in the military would notice. And since the Rebellion is made up of troops, officers and Senate officials who defected, it would be strange that none of them would realize Stormies were clones. Also, in battles they would have had to see the faces of Stormtroopers they took the helmets off of after taking them prisoner or taking their armor after killing them (like Luke and Han did), so why would they be "shocked" to see two men who looked identical every so often? A lot of twins?

I dunno, I leave it up to those authors.


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Old 03-30-2005, 09:47 PM   #4
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This'll likely be revealed in RotS (for sure this time, not just EU references).

*Statement in a leaked RotS visual dictionary page*

spoiler:
Clones are also being grown on other worlds, with cells produced from new templates.


Which means they're using other cloning facilities than Kamino, and aren't using the Jango template (bad decision).

spoiler:
After Palpatine's creation of the Empire, academies for the training of non-clone Imperial officers will appear.


So this means the officers aren't clones. Since there's no Jedi to be commanders, they need real people to take their place in command.

Maybe the grunt Stormtroopers are clones, but their officers (including field commanders who wear armor in combat, hence the color-coded pauldrons on Sandtroopers) are enlisted men who went to these academies. Come to think of it, EU sources of ex-Imperials (i.e. Kyle Katarn, General Madine, Biggs Darklighter, even Han Solo) portray them as officers.

Maybe we'll get more clarification through RotS materials.
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Old 03-30-2005, 09:53 PM   #5
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Guess I'll take your word for it (not reading the spoilers, but assuming your info is accurate). Of course unless it's explicitly stated in the new movie plenty of people won't accept it. They'll just say that in the 20+ years between trilogies it changed or something.

But since the EU (written during and after ROTS) will surely go in line with what Lucas wants, whatever he wants from the film will be supported. Still rather than just disregard those old sources they'll probably try to salvage them either by saying mixed in recruites or lots and lots of clone templates and possible brainwashing so they don't realize they are clones and a massive news blackout so nobody realizes it outside of Palpy's inner circle.


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Old 03-31-2005, 11:16 AM   #6
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In my opinion, after the clone troopers, they should have left cloning alone. It doesn't make sence when compared with the OT, Video Games, and Books.

Even in Jedi Academy, a mercenary said:

"I can hardly see in this thing, its like being a stormtrooper all over again!"

His partner replied:

"You were a stormtrooper!?"


"Yeah, but I couldn't stand taking orders, so I jumped ship first chance I got."



A clone wouldn't "jump ship" as he said. I just wish lucas had left a few things the way they were.
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Old 03-31-2005, 01:15 PM   #7
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Yeah, it ticks me off that he is disregarding pretty much everything that people have created for the expanded universe. He would barley be able to make these movies if it weren't for all the money EU stuff brings in.
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Old 03-31-2005, 01:37 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Darth Andrew
Yeah, it ticks me off that he is disregarding pretty much everything that people have created for the expanded universe. He would barley be able to make these movies if it weren't for all the money EU stuff brings in.
And just how would they be able to make any money if it wasn't for GL ans his movies ? Lucas can do watherver he wants with his movies and I don't blame him. Let's not turn this into a EU vs movies thread though.
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Old 03-31-2005, 02:03 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by coupes.
And just how would they be able to make any money if it wasn't for GL ans his movies ?
Yes, true, but still.... Oh well. *sigh*
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Old 03-31-2005, 03:57 PM   #10
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His own ideas conflict with his own movies! Han was an imperial (I know what you guys said before, but in actuallity we don't know what Hans rank was!)

There are too many inconsistencies. Everytime I watch the OT the shadow of the prequels hangs over me... they are not as enjoyable as they once were.

So coupes., you mean to tell me that the EU writers/game developers make their money only on Star Wars? If Star Wars wasn't around they would be writing other books or making other games.
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Old 03-31-2005, 04:47 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1 So coupes., you mean to tell me that the EU writers/game developers make their money only on Star Wars? If Star Wars wasn't around they would be writing other books or making other games.
No, of course not. You're putting words in my mouth. Darth Andrew said GL would barely be able to make his movies without the profit from the EU stuff, which I beleive to be totally untrue. My point was that all tha EU stuff wouldn't sell half as good as it does if it didn't have a "Star Wars" label on it, it's not the same thing.
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Old 03-31-2005, 06:52 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by coupes.
No, of course not. You're putting words in my mouth. Darth Andrew said GL would barely be able to make his movies without the profit from the EU stuff, which I beleive to be totally untrue. My point was that all tha EU stuff wouldn't sell half as good as it does if it didn't have a "Star Wars" label on it, it's not the same thing.
Oh Ok


And TK- Thats my point, that merc wouldn't have been a clone. He would have been a normal person. Although wouldn't he have had to take orders under Tavion? Kinda dumb, but either way, he wasn't a clone.

About Han- I am not exactly sure how he served the Empire, but I know somehow he wound up on Kashykk and saved Chewie from slavery/death or something.
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Old 03-31-2005, 09:53 PM   #13
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It never says in the movies that Han Solo was ever part of the Empire, does it?


Where does this info that he was an ex-Imperial actually come from originally? I'm just curious.

'Cause the charge is being made that Lucas is contradicting his own movies, but I don't remember anything about Han being a former Imperial from the films alone...


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Old 03-31-2005, 10:02 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
Where does this info that he was an ex-Imperial actually come from originally? I'm just curious.
EU books, Han Solo trilogy.

But there's really not contradiction in the movies.

Not to mention, who cares about EU, Lucas can do whatever the hell he wants with his movies.


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Old 04-01-2005, 01:22 AM   #15
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Okay thanks. I kind of figured, but it's been a long time and for all I knew it was in the original Star Wars novel (which would make it G-level canon).

I haven't read the Han Solo trilogy, so I asked.


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Old 04-01-2005, 10:45 AM   #16
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Stormtroopers are clones. Full Stop.



Next question?

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Old 04-01-2005, 02:40 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Prime
Stormtroopers are clones.
...Except their officers.
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Old 04-03-2005, 04:56 PM   #18
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Wink

Quote:
Originally posted by TK-8252
...Except their officers.
APRIL FOOL!


Just kidding, I agree...


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Old 04-04-2005, 11:28 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by TK-8252
...Except their officers.
You mean like General Veers? I'm pretty sure they are not stormtroopers.

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Old 04-04-2005, 08:45 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Prime
You mean like General Veers? I'm pretty sure they are not stormtroopers.
Like the Sandtroopers with colored pauldrons ( http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/dvd/ep4/moseisl4.jpg ) and the black-uniformed officers in ANH ( http://theforce.net/swtc/Pix/cards/ccg/praji.jpg ).

Edit: On the subject of Sandtroopers, it appears they are all chosen from recruits. Black pauldrons are those of cadets, white pauldrons are those of sergeants, and orange pauldrons are like I said the squad leaders. Sandtrooper units stress independant-thinking, so it's only logical for them to pick certain academy students to make up these units.

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Old 04-04-2005, 09:40 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by TK-8252
Like the Sandtroopers with colored pauldrons ( http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/dvd/ep4/moseisl4.jpg ) and the black-uniformed officers in ANH ( http://theforce.net/swtc/Pix/cards/ccg/praji.jpg ).
One thing though, the "Clonetroopers" in AOTC had "rank colors" too, and yet they were all clones. What evidence do we have that the non-clone "Stormtrooper Officers" wear the armor, other than the EU?

It wouldn't be a big deal, I don't have a problem with the idea, but I'm not sure it's a given. I mean, the EU basically assumed (pre-AOTC) as we all did, that Stormtroopers were not clones.

Now I'm not saying we have to have a scene of an obviously non-clone guy putting on the helmet and gear for it to be "canon" I'm just wondering if there's a G-level source to support this.

One would think that if the clones always wear the armor, so would the officers (ie: either always wear it or never wear it)... or is there some rule that the clones have to wear it all the time, but the officers have the "privelage" of not having to wear it because it's uncomfortable (and not "dress uniform") or something?


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Old 04-04-2005, 09:44 PM   #22
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That leaked visual dictionary page...
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Old 04-04-2005, 09:47 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by TK-8252
That leaked visual dictionary page...
If that's G-level canon then fine, I'll again take your word for it, and assuming whatever that was carries over into the OT period.


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Old 04-05-2005, 04:13 AM   #24
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I have that one, I can check it when I get home.




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Old 04-06-2005, 05:56 PM   #25
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Remember that the Kaminoans used metabolic age enhancers to cut the time that it takes to grow a full-fledged army.

If all the Stormtroopers were clones, by the time of RotJ (24 years after AotC), the clones, which age at thrice the rate of normal Mandalorians, will have genetically aged 72 years and possibly undergone clone psychosis.

Therefore, all Stormtroopers are enlisted/drafted/threatened/enslaved into service.

Carrida doesn't turn out 100% Imperial Officers, you know.


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Old 04-06-2005, 05:57 PM   #26
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Ever think that they could, oh I don't know, make another batch? And then another? so on and so forth?


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Old 04-06-2005, 06:04 PM   #27
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Not only could we guess that, we know it to be true. In the Kamino scene in AOTC we see clones of different ages. The next batch (or even several more batches) has already begun! Also, are you sure it is 3 times the rate? That would make the clones in AOTC 30, which seems kind of old for an army. Twice the rate seems more likely, and matches Lama Su's comment about raising a clone in 'half the time'. Not that its really important either way, 60 year old clones arent too great either.
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Old 04-06-2005, 07:03 PM   #28
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It's not three times the rate, only doubled. But it makes little difference since they did start making other batches off of Kamino and not of Jango. This is confirmed in the RotS visual dictionary.
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Old 04-06-2005, 07:54 PM   #29
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Valid agruments, all, but you still have to work around the Carrida statement (plus all the other Imperial Academies)


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Old 04-07-2005, 02:21 PM   #30
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About the Stormtrooper Officers from the Visual Dictionary for the OT:

Quote:
In non-combat situations, stormtrooper officers wear distinctive black tunics and caps. Their insignia - officers discs, rank plaques, and code cylinders - conform to the standards of the Imperial Navy. Code cylinders allow officers access to secure areas and computer systems. All stormtrooper officers are proven soldiers, and in combat they wear body armor like any other trooper. Officers in field units may wear colored shoulder pauldrons as high-visibility rank indicators.




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Old 04-08-2005, 05:00 AM   #31
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Thanks guys. Well (that's a spoiler, but a very minor one), if this stuff is confirmed by the RotS official sources, then that's the official retcon.

C-Level canon (new stuff overriding the old, I assume in light of any ROTS revelations). We have a winner!

So multiple clone sources, not just from Kamino. The officers thing might still be retconned though, keep an eye out.


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Old 04-08-2005, 11:47 AM   #32
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Old 04-09-2005, 07:33 PM   #33
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Some other interesting stuff from the visual dictionary and the incredible cross-sections...

It says about the Red Guards (become the Imperial Guards after the Empire is created) that...

spoiler:
Palpatine picked its members from non-clone military units.


So certain academy graduates might be given the opportunity to train as an Imperial Guard after proving themselves.

On the page about the new Republic starfighters, it says:

spoiler:
Amongst the most experienced ARC-170 squadrons is Squad Seven, a disciplined team of veteran aviators known for their unwavering courage. Squad Seven are clones of Jango Fett, the bounty hunter who was the genetic model for the first clone troops. However, an increasing number of units are formed from rigorously selected volunteers. Over the coming years, the most accomplished volunteer aces will be honored as stock for new clone lineages, and distinguised with all-black dress uniforms.


So you can also train at the academy to be a pilot. Then proven pilots would be selected to be cloned to produce more pilots. Nice.

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Old 04-10-2005, 03:50 AM   #34
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Don't worry, Kurgan, my quote has been out on the market for years already, so it's not really a spoiler.

Which is why I didn't put it in a spoiler window.

And newer sources shouldn't override older, only higher should be able to do that. Otherwise, the movies, which is the highest source, would be overrided left right and center.




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Old 04-11-2005, 01:11 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jan Gaarni
Don't worry, Kurgan, my quote has been out on the market for years already, so it's not really a spoiler.
I'm fairly sure I was replying to TK's post above your's, sorry if that wasn't clear.

Stuff that was written before ROTS was made isn't really a spoiler, it's just been the official explanation up till now. I'm saying just because that's the official explanation doesn't mean it can't change (and be overridden) by a new movie, since movies are the highest source, and George has in the past not held himself to EU sources on certain things, so it's wide open.

Quote:
And newer sources shouldn't override older, only higher should be able to do that. Otherwise, the movies, which is the highest source, would be overrided left right and center.
Well then you get to the problem of what do you do when you have two equal footing sources that contradict each other? (Such as ANH and AOTC on the age of the Republic) The Holocron lays out ways to determine this, if nothing else, than an official committee decision and then pronouncement.

The "newer" thing applies to revisions of existing canon materials, such as the 2004 DVD's of the Classic Trilogy over the 1997 Special Editions or the home video versions from the 80's or the Theatrical versions. This may also apply to new editions of various tech books. Most of the other stuff isn't ever updated or "corrected" no matter what. You don't see them re-writing the Thrawn Trilogy because of stuff in it that's out of date. Instead they just hire somebody to write another book that explains away any problems.

It'll be much easier once ROTS is out on DVD (and Lucas doesn't decide to go changing his movies yet again!) and there won't be any new G-Level canon to screw things up in the EU. Then again, if the TV series is G-Level that could be a big deal.


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Old 04-11-2005, 05:12 PM   #36
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Quote:
Well then you get to the problem of what do you do when you have two equal footing sources that contradict each other? (Such as ANH and AOTC on the age of the Republic) The Holocron lays out ways to determine this, if nothing else, than an official committee decision and then pronouncement.
Simple.

You wait on being sure about it till an official answer has been made, preferably a G-level source.


When it comes to the canon sources, it's difficult to determine what is the right answer. In the sitution you are thinking of it could very well be no conflict at all. The Republic could very well be around a 1000 years old. Each year, a new generation starts their training. (not my idea by the way, so don't shoot me for it. ). Of course, this would throw off everything that has been established in the EU up till the that point of time (1000 years before the movies).

Then again, what exactly did he mean by the 1000 years comment?

Even before that comment came out, we knew there was a war going on that left the Republic in quite a mess, but it held together in relative peace for the next 1000 years. Could this be what he (Palpatine) ment?


Until we get an answer on what this all means, then the history of the Republic still fits in at an alright and acceptable level in accordance to the canon.




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Old 04-12-2005, 03:38 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jan Gaarni
Simple.

You wait on being sure about it till an official answer has been made, preferably a G-level source.
Which is what the Holocron is all about. The people who get to decide what the explanation is aren't the fans, in other words. That's all I'm saying. Some things really can't be resolved officially until that source comes out, I agree with you there. Until then it's just speculation.


Quote:
When it comes to the canon sources, it's difficult to determine what is the right answer. In the sitution you are thinking of it could very well be no conflict at all. The Republic could very well be around a 1000 years old. Each year, a new generation starts their training. (not my idea by the way, so don't shoot me for it. ). Of course, this would throw off everything that has been established in the EU up till the that point of time (1000 years before the movies).
Right, we have an "Old Republic" 4,000 years before the movies, according to the KOTOR comics (and now KOTOR games too). We could speculate that these are old legends and myths that get the history wrong (like the legends about King Arthur). Perfectly reasonable, but a fan explanation. Another would be to move them forward in time so they didn't take place so long ago (say, only 900 years ago or something). I think the official retcon is that there was a "re-founding" of the Republic or something like that, and somehow different people count it differently. This too might be retconned, I don't know. Some people were saying this was a "slip of the tongue" by Palpatine showing that he was reckonning things in Sith time, rather than Republic time and dropped a big clue that he's an evil plotter. I don't know.

The Holocron would give the definitive answer. If they're waiting for Lucas to finish ROTS I can understand that...

Quote:
Then again, what exactly did he mean by the 1000 years comment?
This Republic (as opposed to some other Republic), which has stood for 1,000 years (the government has lasted a millennia?), is about to be split in two (by the Sepratists action), and he's not going to allow that (by fighting to keep them from leaving or preventing others from leaving, like the American Civil War... fight to preserve the Union).

The "Generations of Jedi Students" explanation sounded plausible to me, but that's for Obi-Wan's comment ("for over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic").

But then in ANH they also talk about the Clone WarS, plural. Of course there might be another war in addition to the one seen in AOTC ("Begun the Clone War (singular) has")... though ROTS only takes place 2 or 3 years later, there's still time, and these wars might rage on for another decade or so before ANH. See speculation about the Galactic Civil War simply being an extension of the Clone War.


Quote:
Even before that comment came out, we knew there was a war going on that left the Republic in quite a mess, but it held together in relative peace for the next 1000 years. Could this be what he (Palpatine) ment?
If we take it that way, it sounds like the Republic fell, and then was re-established. But if that happened that would be a new date reckonning.

You wouldn't keep saying that the Old Republic lasted 25,000+ years, if it was demolished and refounded again and then start saying it's only lasted 1,000 years.

They could have easily fixed this by saying "The Second Republic" or something like that. For all we know the Republic has periodically fallen and been refounded after a major conflict hundreds, even thousands of times over the millennia. But it is odd how Obi-Wan would reckon it differently, unless he's some sagely historian who reckons time based on the Jedi Order rather than the Republic (which could be plausible).

But then why call everything "the Old Republic" if there were more than one?

Before AOTC everybody took the quote to mean there was one Republic, that lasted for 1,000+ generations of Jedi Knights. Now suddenly we have a thousand year old Republic.

It's like the Sith. They were around for over 5,000 years according to the KOTOR stories. Then the TPM novel says the Sith were founded only 2,000 years ago, and thought to be anhilated after a thousand year war. Again you could move the KOTOR stories up in time to resolve this, or as someone suggested, that the Sith Order was lost and refounded again by the Dark Jedi mentioned in the TPM novel.

Anyway, we have official retcons and attempts at fan explanations. The official retcons have canon standing going for them though, even if they might stink.

Quote:
Until we get an answer on what this all means, then the history of the Republic still fits in at an alright and acceptable level in accordance to the canon.
Does this go without saying? We just assume it all fits together somehow until they actually fix it? Sure thing.

Sure, we fans don't get paid to worry about this sort of thing, let those guys at the Holocron do that. But what are we fans supposed to argue about in the meantime?


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Old 04-21-2005, 12:50 AM   #38
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This is wierd.
The clones sound like Mexicans.
The stormtroopers sound like Americans.
But in Episode III, the clones look like stormtroopers and their assault ships looked like star destroyers.
Wierd.


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Old 04-21-2005, 04:53 AM   #39
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It's a conspiracy! Really...


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Old 04-21-2005, 02:37 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by scout_zero
This is wierd.
The clones sound like Mexicans.
.... That is weird. I never heard a mexican that sounded like a mauri...


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