Darth Plageus and Darth Sidious

Darth Smaug · 05-22-2005, 11:18 AM

Is darth Sidious/Palpatine/The Emperor

the apprentice of Darth Plageus ???

*Kurgan* · 05-22-2005, 11:53 AM

I think we can say with confidence that he is not.

This was a false rumor started by Super Shadow, who has consistently been a source of false information and known to steal real spoilers from other sites and claim them as his own discoveries.

Palpy refers to it as a "Sith Legend."

If this Plagueis character was his own master, that would be like Ex President George Bush Senior talking about "the story of Ronald Reagan" as "an old Republican legend."

Maybe he is "a legend" (in the "he's a hero") sense of the word, but not in the sense of a really old story passed on from generation to generation mixing fiction with fact. If he was alive a few decades ago, that wouldn't make it a legend.

Also, he talks about these "gifts" that Plagueis had, but he himself doesn't know those gifts, but the apprentice of Plagueis supposedly did. So (Palpatine) he can't be the apprentice.

That is, unless we just assume Palpatine is always lying, but then there's no conclusion we can draw from it all, period. There may not even BE such a person as "Darth Plagueis." The point is that it was a story told to Anakin in order to get him interested in the Sith and what they could do for him.

Like I've said elsewhere, we'll probably never really know who Palpatine's master was, just to keep a few mysteries around in the mythos. Then again, tomorrow Lucas might authorize some comic book to be made where it is revealed he was trained by "Darth Pumpernickle."

Kryllith · 05-22-2005, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kurgan
I think we can say with confidence that he is not.

This was a false rumor started by Super Shadow, who has consistently been a source of false information and known to steal real spoilers from other sites and claim them as his own discoveries.

How do we know the rumor is false? Frankly I've been avoiding all spoilers and rumors until I saw the movie, so I've no frame of mind for whomever Super Shadow is, but in watching Palpatine telling of the story I got the feeling that he was talking about his old master.

Quote:

Palpy refers to it as a "Sith Legend."

If this Plagueis character was his own master, that would be like Ex President George Bush Senior talking about "the story of Ronald Reagan" as "an old Republican legend."

Maybe he is "a legend" (in the "he's a hero") sense of the word, but not in the sense of a really old story passed on from generation to generation mixing fiction with fact. If he was alive a few decades ago, that wouldn't make it a legend.

At the time of his referencing him as a legend, Palpatine had not yet reveled that he himself was a sith lord. It could have been that he referred to Plagius as a legend to deceive Anakin into thinking it was something that happened a long time ago and thus not give away the truth about himself too soon since Anakin wasn't fully in sway at the time. Given that Sideous is known for being deceptive, I wouldn't put this past him...

Quote:

Also, he talks about these "gifts" that Plagueis had, but he himself doesn't know those gifts, but the apprentice of Plagueis supposedly did. So (Palpatine) he can't be the apprentice.

That is, unless we just assume Palpatine is always lying, but then there's no conclusion we can draw from it all, period. There may not even BE such a person as "Darth Plagueis." The point is that it was a story told to Anakin in order to get him interested in the Sith and what they could do for him.

In the movie, I read this to mean that Palpatine was instructed on how these "gifts" could be performed, but that Palpatine lacked the power to actually carry them out. He states that Plaguis is more powerful than both himself and Anakin. So while perhaps neither one of them could stop death individually, they might be able to combine their powers to achieve the same effect, provided they could discover how to do it.

Of course, it could have all been a lie told by Sideous to hit Anakin where it counted (saving Amidala's life).

Kryllith

**Prime** · 05-22-2005, 02:08 PM

As explained in Labyrinth of Evil, Darth Plagueis is indeed Palpatine's former master.

I'm starting to come to the conclusion that LOE is required reading for ROTS. It explains the above, all about Syfo-Dias, Grevious' entire history and origin, as well as the capture of Palpatine and how much his minions know about his grand scheme (hint: very little).

*Sivy* · 05-23-2005, 05:22 AM

you can tell by Palpatine's face when he talks about Plagueis' death that it was he who killed him. and therefore was his apprentice.

Astrotoy7 · 05-23-2005, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sivy
you can tell by Palpatine's face when he talks about Plagueis' death that it was he who killed him. and therefore was his apprentice.

trueism. that evil/smug look on his face wouldnt have been there if he was merely reciting a sith fairy tale...

@ Kurgan : EU will lead you to the truth !!

like Prime says, LoE also confirms that Plagueis is Sidious Master. The ROTS novelisation does so too, ive been told from those who have read it

Im looking forward to the planned books about the sith lords. The one about Darth Bane has been confirmed. Hopefully there will be a plagueis/sidious novel as well

mtfbwya

DemonKing · 05-23-2005, 06:33 AM

I have one of those "official Episode 3" picture books and on the pages about Sideous/Palpatine it states explicitly that he was taught by Darth Palgueis...plus it was pretty implicitly implied in the film.

I was interested that palpatine said that Plagueis could use midichlorians (spelling?) to create life, implying that perhaps Anakin of the immaculate conception had a source after all...now that would be long-term planning!

Igor_Cavkov · 05-23-2005, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sivy
you can tell by Palpatine's face when he talks about Plagueis' death that it was he who killed him. and therefore was his apprentice.

Sivy you are a wise master!

im totaly with you on this one!

JediKiller23 · 05-24-2005, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sivy
you can tell by Palpatine's face when he talks about Plagueis' death that it was he who killed him. and therefore was his apprentice.

I could tell by his face also that he killed him.

DarthTDe · 08-06-2005, 10:27 PM

Why else would he know so much,to the point where he could Describe everything in detail.And if he killed him with a lightsaber,he could easily have gotten away with it.Because the authorities at the time couldn't have even told the color of the saber!

lil_dude · 08-07-2005, 01:39 AM

I believe that Palpetine has had this plan going for many years, and that Plageus was his master. Palpetine used the powers Plageus taught him to make Anakin in his mom, in a world where he would not be discovered for many years, and would already be driven by emotion so that it would be easier to turn him. I also think by balance, it means that there is no jedi/sith, but they use both sides of the force equaly, more like Luke i guess. Maybe it was Qui-Gon's destiny to start the chain reaction, by finding Anakin, that lead to this balance because he did seem very in touch with the living force. But we will probly never know, these are just some of my theories on the parts which are meant to be guessed about.

Leviathan · 08-07-2005, 12:27 PM

Quote:

I have one of those "official Episode 3" picture books and on the pages about Sideous/Palpatine it states explicitly that he was taught by Darth Palgueis...plus it was pretty implicitly implied in the film.

I have equally this book... But I think the power Plagueis developped to create or restore life has never existed ; It was just a manner to tempt Skywalker better...

Darth Smaug · 08-07-2005, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leviathan

I have equally this book... But I think the power Plagueis developped to create or restore life has never existed ; It was just a manner to tempt Skywalker better...

Well,you're wrong.Everything in the legend of the sith master Darth Pagueis is true,even his powers.Otherwise it wouldn't be a legend and he would be just another sith lord en then the jedi would tell the members of the order that he existed.But they don't tell because he had such great powers that many jedi would go to the darkside to have those powers also..

Doomie · 08-07-2005, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Smaug

Well,you're wrong.Everything in the legend of the sith master Darth Pagueis is true,even his powers.Otherwise it wouldn't be a legend and he would be just another sith lord en then the jedi would tell the members of the order that he existed.But they don't tell because he had such great powers that many jedi would go to the darkside to have those powers also..

It's true because It's a legend? I don't think we have the same definition of the word 'legend' here...

I think Palpy made it up to appeal to Anakin.

Leviathan · 08-07-2005, 01:37 PM

I think too...

DarthTDe · 08-07-2005, 04:13 PM

Maybe...I think it was true.It would take a Pure Genious to conjure up that whole story on the spur of the moment.

Darth Smaug · 08-07-2005, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarthTDe

Maybe...I think it was true.It would take a Pure Genious to conjure up that whole story on the spur of the moment.

Yup,you're right..Palpy wouldn't made such a story up.It's a sith legend and even the jedi now about this legend so why would he made it up?

DarthTDe · 08-07-2005, 04:17 PM

Exactly.

TK-8252 · 08-07-2005, 06:31 PM

Wow, you all are quite gullible aren't you?

First of all, sorry, but Sidious is the biggest liar in Star Wars - he's the devil, as George has said. Would you believe satan when he told you about the apple? I guess you would.

The only part that we know is for real true in the legend of Darth Plagueis is that he was indeed Sidious's master, and Sidious indeed killed him in his sleep (the sound of the lightsaber igniting would wake him up, so no he wouldn't have used his lightsaber to kill him).

Anything else is either exaggerated or just a flat out lie.

We know that Sidious lied about how he could save people from death because, at one point he's saying "I have the power to save the ones you love" and then when Anakin takes up the offer he changes his story to "if we work together we can discover the secret." Lies, all lies.

We do know for fact that Anakin was NOT a demon spawn of the Sith. How do we know? Because he IS the Chosen One - he destroys the Sith just as the prophecy said. And the prophecy also says that the Chosen One is birthed by the will of the Force, and the will of the Force is not the will of the Sith.

So tada.

lil_dude · 08-07-2005, 11:01 PM

how do we know the will of the force is the will of the light side? Was that ever stated either, no. The prophecy was to bring balance to the force, he did so by eliminating most Jedi, it ended when he killed Obi-Wan and Palpetine, then he died. Which left the old ways of the Jedi/Sith completely wiped out. He brought balance to the force by killing everybody, because that would be the only senceble way. Luke was a new breed of Jedi which was much more balanced then the onld way.

TK-8252 · 08-07-2005, 11:11 PM

Right, it's not the will of the Jedi either. It's the will of the Force, which would be that the Sith all be gone period (as the Jedi believed the prophecy was), and Jedi who have become corrupt and arrogant be removed as well (which must have been the misreading). Therefore Anakin is the Chosen One, and not a creation of the Sith.

Infern0 · 08-08-2005, 04:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lil_dude

how do we know the will of the force is the will of the light side? Was that ever stated either, no. The prophecy was to bring balance to the force, he did so by eliminating most Jedi, it ended when he killed Obi-Wan and Palpetine, then he died. Which left the old ways of the Jedi/Sith completely wiped out. He brought balance to the force by killing everybody, because that would be the only senceble way. Luke was a new breed of Jedi which was much more balanced then the onld way.

Good point. Giving the force a clean slate after so many years of either light and dark influence over the rest of the galaxy seems rational.

Btw, the abilty to use the force to create/retain life was used by Sidious to hide his age for many years was it not? We only see his true figure when he uses lightning on Windu, and can no longer retain his youth. I thought that was the case... meh.

TK-8252 · 08-08-2005, 04:55 AM

I don't think Sidious is any older than a regular human. Some recent sources say that it's not Sidious's "true form" but just damage done by Sith lightning.

Infern0 · 08-08-2005, 04:59 AM

I think in ROTJ he was about 115... which would make him in his high 90's in ROTS. That's if thats true ofcourse. I don't remember where I heard it.

TK-8252 · 08-08-2005, 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infern0

I think in ROTJ he was about 115... which would make him in his high 90's in ROTS. That's if thats true ofcourse. I don't remember where I heard it.

Palpatine surely wasn't that old in RotS. That would make him around 85 in TPM and he didn't look that old.

Infern0 · 08-08-2005, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TK-8252

That would make him around 85 in TPM and he didn't look that old.

I know, but if he was using the force to alter his appearance and age as I was saying, his physical appearance in Menace really wouldn't matter.

Leviathan · 08-08-2005, 10:35 AM

But if he had used the Force to hide his true age, the risk to be discovered would have been greater... (I think...)

TK-8252 · 08-08-2005, 03:49 PM

Anyway, even if he did know how to save life, it only makes him a bigger liar, because he told Anakin at first that he HAD the power, then later tells him they must work together to discover it. He's a liar!

Darkest Wolf · 08-08-2005, 04:24 PM

If it's true then couldn't Anakin have used it at the end of return of the Jedi to keep himself alive?

I know that Palpatine says that Plagus couldn't use it to save himself but I think that's because he was dead before he had a chance to use it.

Darkest Wolf · 08-08-2005, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TK-8252

Palpatine surely wasn't that old in RotS. That would make him around 85 in TPM and he didn't look that old.

I read in a book about the phantom menace that Darth Sidious was over 1000 years old, so maby he had used the force to hide hide his his age and when Windu deflected the force lightning back in to him he was so badly hurt that he could no longer keep using the force to look young.

TK-8252 · 08-08-2005, 04:54 PM

Like I said...

Quote:

Originally Posted by TK-8252

Some recent sources say that it's not Sidious's "true form" but just damage done by Sith lightning.

The official site being one of them. The other is Star Wars Insider.

Darkest Wolf · 08-08-2005, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TK-8252

The only part that we know is for real true in the legend of Darth Plagueis is that he was indeed Sidious's master, and Sidious indeed killed him in his sleep (the sound of the lightsaber igniting would wake him up, so no he wouldn't have used his lightsaber to kill him).

I don't think that the noise made by the lightsaber would have been loud enough to wake him up after all in episode 2 Anakin uses his saber to cut in to the back of the building where his mother is and the sand people do not seem to hear.

TK-8252 · 08-08-2005, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkest Wolf

I don't think that the noise made by the lightsaber would have been loud enough to wake him up after all in episode 2 Anakin uses his saber to cut in to the back of the building where his mother is and the sand people do not seem to hear.

That's because the Massifs were fighting, which distracted the Tusken Raiders.

Darkest Wolf · 08-08-2005, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TK-8252

Anyway, even if he did know how to save life, it only makes him a bigger liar, because he told Anakin at first that he HAD the power, then later tells him they must work together to discover it. He's a liar!

Maby he had the power but didn't want to tell Anakin how to do it, in case Anakin did to him what he did to Plageus

TK-8252 · 08-08-2005, 05:03 PM

Like I said...

Quote:

Originally Posted by TK-8252

Anyway, even if he did know how to save life, it only makes him a bigger liar, because he told Anakin at first that he HAD the power, then later tells him they must work together to discover it. He's a liar!

Pho3nix · 08-08-2005, 07:17 PM

I think so. But this is just my insight.

DarthTDe · 08-08-2005, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TK-8252

(the sound of the lightsaber igniting would wake him up, so no he wouldn't have used his lightsaber to kill him).

He could have ignited it outside of the room,and came in.

TK-8252 · 08-09-2005, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarthTDe

He could have ignited it outside of the room,and came in.

The lightsaber makes a hum when ignited. Even when asleep, such a powerful Sith Lord like Darth Plagueis should be able to sense an active lightsaber in the room.

DarthTDe · 08-09-2005, 12:09 PM

It wouldn't be that loud.

Leviathan · 08-09-2005, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Anyway, even if he did know how to save life, it only makes him a bigger liar, because he told Anakin at first that he HAD the power, then later tells him they must work together to discover it. He's a liar!

You have noticed that, but not Skywalker !...

This is a detail I consider almost un-realistic...