lfnetwork.com mark read register faq members calendar

Thread: Anakin's Birth / Prophecy (SPOILER)
Thread Tools Display Modes
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Old 05-22-2005, 02:36 PM   #1
Kryllith
Hideous Twit
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 1,150
Anakin's Birth / Prophecy (SPOILER)

Before I start this off, let me first say that I've not read any spoilers or any books, reference guides, or any info on Starwars.com relating to the story in Sith. I'm drawing my conclusions based on the movies (and to an extent, Lucas's commetary) and, as such, I'm suggesting my theory on them as well.

Anyway, in Sith Yoda indicates that the Prophecy might have been misread, a point I've brought up a few times over the past several years. The Jedi were always under the assumption that the Prophecy meant that Anakin would bring balance to the Force by eliminating the Sith presence in the galaxy. I've always argued that the Force favors a Yin/Yang style balance, and that what the Prophecy meant was that Anakin was destined to make the Light Side and Dark Side powers in the galaxy roughly equal.

Given that in Phantom Menace, the Jedi far outnumber the Sith, the shift is heavily on the Light side of the Force, meaning that many many Jedi need to die to make the Prophecy come true. Granted, Anakin did not kill all the Jedi himself, but he played a major role in ensure that the future generations of Jedi didn't reach their full potential. Ultimately at the end of Sith, the only Jedi that we KNOW survived are Yoda and Obiwan, which serve to balance the force against Palpatine and Anakin and pretty much fulfill the Prophecy.

Ok, yes, I know that Lucas himself stated that Anakin fulfilled the Prophecy when he killed Palpatine and passed on himself. I'm not disagreeing with him. When Luke faces off against Vader at the end of Jedi, Yoda and Obiwan have died. As such, the balance has shifted again, this time in favor of the Dark Side. Vader destroys Palpatine, and then dies himself, leaving only Luke. We can see from Luke's actions in Empire and Jedi that he's not a bastion of the Light side like the Jedi in the prequals. While Luke may not complete his journey to the Darkside, we do know that he WAS headed in that direction. He may have ultimately chosen against becoming one of the Sith, but he's hardly untainted. In effect, Luke represents a Balance between the two sides, and as such represents the Yin/Yang nature of the Force.

That being said, let me focus on something that I feel was unresolved in the movie: the origin of Anakin. Supposedly, Anakin was generated via the will of the midichlorians. The reason I bring this up, is because Palpatine states in the telling of the legend of Plagius that Plagius has so much influence over the midichlorians that he could actually convince them to create life. Could it be then, that Anakin's conception was the result of a Sith's attempt to fulfill the prophecy (the eradication of the Jedi to bring about the initial balance)? Could Plagius (or even Palpatine or some other Sith) be the cause of Anakin's conception? I know some people might have a problem with the rather short time constraints, but Palpatine is known to be a plotter, so who know what all he'd set into motion. To that extent, perhaps the midichlorians has been instructed sometime long before Anakin's birth to produce Anakin as some appointed time...

Opinions?
Kryllith is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-22-2005, 02:59 PM   #2
El Sitherino
The Original.
 
El Sitherino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Planet Funkālnite.
Posts: 14,509
Hot Topic Starter LFN Staff Member Forum Veteran LF Jester 
Balance of the force doesn't mean light side and dark side have equal number of practitioners. The jedi and the sith had to be wiped out. The jedi order had to be restarted, but the jedi were to be trained to follow the guide of the living force. The jedi excluded all emotion, the sith embraced it as their drive. The jedi used rationality to drive their decisions. Both sides had perversed the very nature of the force. The jedi are to accept their emotions, but not let them control their actions. Qui-Gon spoke of living by the will of the living force, that is what jedi are supposed to do, that's what Luke does when he sets up the academy. (or so it is implied)

And Plageius did not create Anakin, that was merely a false statement made by Palpatine to try and reach Anakin, he noticed it wasn't what Anakin was looking for. He then went on to say "he could even stop those he cared about from dying". That's when we saw the spark in Anakin. "He could actually save people from death?"


“This body is not me. I am not caught in this body.
I am life without limit.”
El Sitherino is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-23-2005, 06:52 AM   #3
DemonKing
 
DemonKing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: The very bottom of the infernal Pit
Posts: 118
Quote:
As for Palpy implying that Darth Plageius creating Anakin I think that Palpy was just fishing for something to strike a chord with Anakin. Since that failed he struck a chord with the stopping people from dying. [/B]
So where does "Anakin of the immaculate conception" come from then, if not through the influence of Palgueis/Sideous as inferred by Palpatine?


DemonKing

"At this stage I believe I now understand the truth, which is that Lucas has gone over to the dark side. He is a Darth Billionaire ruling an empire, and is no longer leading a rebellion. He was once a semi-independent force, overshadowed by a dark and powerful business, but still managed to beat the odds and on his own terms, but now he sits on a throne with lightning in his hands and a franchise in his clenched fist."
DemonKing is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-23-2005, 09:29 AM   #4
rut-wa jodar
 
rut-wa jodar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: a galaxy far,far away
Posts: 722
another point worth considering is that if the sith did have anything to do with Anakins birth, this could mean a possible conspiracy which Qui-gon Jinn was part of. Afterall he did make obi-wan promise to train the boy, against the will of the council in EP 1.


I`ve bent my
rut-wa jodar is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-23-2005, 09:33 AM   #5
Kryllith
Hideous Twit
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 1,150
Quote:
Originally posted by InsaneSith
Balance of the force doesn't mean light side and dark side have equal number of practitioners. The jedi and the sith had to be wiped out. The jedi order had to be restarted, but the jedi were to be trained to follow the guide of the living force. The jedi excluded all emotion, the sith embraced it as their drive. The jedi used rationality to drive their decisions. Both sides had perversed the very nature of the force. The jedi are to accept their emotions, but not let them control their actions. Qui-Gon spoke of living by the will of the living force, that is what jedi are supposed to do, that's what Luke does when he sets up the academy. (or so it is implied)

And Plageius did not create Anakin, that was merely a false statement made by Palpatine to try and reach Anakin, he noticed it wasn't what Anakin was looking for. He then went on to say "he could even stop those he cared about from dying". That's when we saw the spark in Anakin. "He could actually save people from death?"
I'll agree with the idea that balancing has to do with following the will of the force rather than the dogma of either the Sith or the Jedi. Personally I'm a big supporter of Quigon, since he seemed to be more in tune with what the Force wanted rather than what the Force could be used to achieve. I still believe that the Force follows the Yin/Yang style of balance, though. If the Force is natural (and in saying so, neutral) then it's neither good nor evil and would be better balanced if those applying to their will are ultimately retaining that neutrality.

Of course, we agree that whatever the interpretation, the prophecy called for the elimination of the Jedi, which is in the Sith's favor. Perhaps they knew they were also at risk, but given their arrogance felt that they could avoid their own demise. Regardless, I fall back to my original question. It seems rather curious to me that Palpatine would bring up the point of someone being able to use the midichlorians to create life when supposedly Anakin WAS created this way. Perhaps it was a false statement. But then, as you said, it wasn't what Anakin was looking for, so perhaps the statement was true and simply the statement about being able to use the Force to stop someone from dying was false.
Kryllith is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-23-2005, 03:48 PM   #6
El Sitherino
The Original.
 
El Sitherino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Planet Funkālnite.
Posts: 14,509
Hot Topic Starter LFN Staff Member Forum Veteran LF Jester 
Quote:
Originally posted by DemonKing
So where does "Anakin of the immaculate conception" come from then, if not through the influence of Palgueis/Sideous as inferred by Palpatine?
Anakin was birthed by the force itself. Not that hard a concept.


“This body is not me. I am not caught in this body.
I am life without limit.”
El Sitherino is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-23-2005, 10:43 PM   #7
Prime
Am I a truck or robot?
 
Prime's Avatar
 
Status: Super Moderator
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Cybertron
Posts: 12,345
Current Game: Skyrim, Macross PS2
10 year veteran! LF Jester Veteran Modder Helpful! 
Quote:
Originally posted by DemonKing
So where does "Anakin of the immaculate conception" come from then, if not through the influence of Palgueis/Sideous as inferred by Palpatine?
Watch The Phatom Menace for the answer.

Prime is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-24-2005, 08:18 AM   #8
DemonKing
 
DemonKing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: The very bottom of the infernal Pit
Posts: 118
Quote:
Originally posted by Prime
Watch The Phatom Menace for the answer.
It doesn't say anything...just that there was no father.

Why tell us that the Sith can create life unless for a reason?


DemonKing

"At this stage I believe I now understand the truth, which is that Lucas has gone over to the dark side. He is a Darth Billionaire ruling an empire, and is no longer leading a rebellion. He was once a semi-independent force, overshadowed by a dark and powerful business, but still managed to beat the odds and on his own terms, but now he sits on a throne with lightning in his hands and a franchise in his clenched fist."
DemonKing is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-24-2005, 01:31 PM   #9
Prime
Am I a truck or robot?
 
Prime's Avatar
 
Status: Super Moderator
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Cybertron
Posts: 12,345
Current Game: Skyrim, Macross PS2
10 year veteran! LF Jester Veteran Modder Helpful! 
Quote:
Originally posted by DemonKing
It doesn't say anything...just that there was no father.
No, it also says that Anakin was likely conceived by the Midichlorians.

Quote:
Originally posted by DemonKing
Why tell us that the Sith can create life unless for a reason?
The whole point was the Emperor manipulating Anakin into thinking that he could learn how to control life, which was his top priority. Whether what the Emperor said about that ability and his master was true or not really doesn't matter. He was using that story for his own ends, i.e. convert Anakin.

Having the Sith create Anakin in the context of TPM doesn't work. Why would they create a superbeing using a slave girl on a remote planet and then completely leave her alone and do nothing with the child? Surely they would do so under infinitely more controlled circumstances. There was nothing special about Shmi (she wasn't even force sensative), so why choose her? There is a galaxy full of better candidates.

Prime is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-24-2005, 04:02 PM   #10
El Sitherino
The Original.
 
El Sitherino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Planet Funkālnite.
Posts: 14,509
Hot Topic Starter LFN Staff Member Forum Veteran LF Jester 
Quote:
Originally posted by DemonKing
It doesn't say anything...just that there was no father.

Why tell us that the Sith can create life unless for a reason?
Ever hear the line "lies and deceit are their ways". Yeah, it's about the sith.


“This body is not me. I am not caught in this body.
I am life without limit.”
El Sitherino is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-25-2005, 11:28 AM   #11
Kryllith
Hideous Twit
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 1,150
Anyone else getting sick of database errors? Seems to me whenever I try to respond to something Lucasforums decides it that it would be a good time for it to crash. Maybe, it's just me though.

Anyway...

Quote:
Originally posted by Prime
[B]No, it also says that Anakin was likely conceived by the Midichlorians.[B]
Sure, but I'd support that argument anyway. Question is, did the Midichlorians conceive him on their own or did someone direct them to conceive him? We can argue one way or the other, but I've yet to see proof of a clear conclusion.

Quote:
The whole point was the Emperor manipulating Anakin into thinking that he could learn how to control life, which was his top priority. Whether what the Emperor said about that ability and his master was true or not really doesn't matter. He was using that story for his own ends, i.e. convert Anakin.
Again, I agree that Palpatine's discussion was used to covert Anakin. And while the truth about Plageius power may not really matter at this stage, it still plausible that the Sith had a hand in Anakin's creation.

Quote:

Having the Sith create Anakin in the context of TPM doesn't work. Why would they create a superbeing using a slave girl on a remote planet and then completely leave her alone and do nothing with the child? Surely they would do so under infinitely more controlled circumstances. There was nothing special about Shmi (she wasn't even force sensative), so why choose her? There is a galaxy full of better candidates.
Whether or not it works depends on how far back you want to go. I agree that impregnating some random slave girl on a remote planet could be counterproductive, although there are elements of control even in that scenario. 1) Shmi's a slave, and thus is more or less bound to her master, so she's not liable to just up and disappear, 2) as a slave, Shmi and Anakin would be afford a bit of protection since slaveowners view them as property and are liable to take steps to protect their property (it may not seem like much, but they were probably better protected than the average lowerclass non-slave) and 3) they were on a remote planet which meant the chances of Jedi involvement were small.

So, why not simply place them under direct Sith control? Raise him straight as a Sith? Who's to say that the Sith didn't already try this? Assuming Anakin was created by the Sith, ever consider the idea that Anakin might not have been the first attempt? For all we know there might have been countless attempts to accomplish with another was was accomplished with Anakin. Perhaps someone tried to raise a chosen one as a Sith, and it invariably resulted in someone who had to be "put down" at an early age. We've seen how reckless and power hungry Anakin was as a Padawan. Now imagine the same Anakin only corrupted since birth. Anakin as a Jedi lashed out quite a bit verbally against his Master. Anakin as a Sith Apprentice would probably have taken it further and gotten himself wiped out.

Perhaps the "infinitely more controlled circumstances" resulted in failure. Considering that many of the biggest discoveries in history often resulted from an accident, it could be that the Sith tried to produce numerous other "chosen one"s while controlling all the factors and failed miserably because they didn't leave anything to chance. So over time they might have lessened the overall control, in hopes that their doing so would produce the desired results. They'd still want some control, naturally, but they backed off to let nature (or perhaps, the Force) take its course.

With that in mind, we can take a look as Shmi. She was a slave on a remote planet, limiting her control over her location and opportunities in life. She isn't Force Sensitive, but is that necessarily a bad thing? It certainly didn't seem to lessen Anakin's power any. Besides, had she been Force Sensitive, the already close bond between her and her son would have been that much closer, and could have produced potential problems in Anakin's conversions. After all, Luke was Anakin's son and he was able to draw Anakin back from Palpatine's control. Perhaps in their earlier failures the Sith found the "chosen" children of Force Sensitives more difficult to control and opted for a mother who wasn't.

Despite being on an remote planet, the Jedi did get involved (there's your accident) and Anakin was brought into the Jedi order. However, because he started off as a slave in the outer reaches of space, he had different life experiences than your typical Padawan. He didn't start out at a very young age like most Padawans did. He already had developed very strong ties to his mother, and as such was more suspectible to developing similar ties to other people other than his master. Thus the remote planet served its purpose since it kept the Jedi away long enough to allow Anakin to grow enough emotionally that he couldn't just let go like other Jedi can.

Anyway, I'm sure this may sound like some vast conspiracy theory, but then, we are talking about the Sith, aren't we? I don't have a problem with Anakin being conceived simply by the Midichlorians without Sith involvement, but the fact that Lucas went out of his way to suggest that some Sith could indeed have the ability to coerce the Midichlorians into creating life just stinks of such a conspiracy.
Kryllith is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-25-2005, 03:20 PM   #12
Sithxace
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Posts: 226
welll theories are stupit, u talk as if there is a TRUTH, there is none, its not written nobody knows wha happens until george lucas decides to


Sithxace--
http://www.nelproductions.com
Your source to the funniest/craziest videos
EAW.net Moderator
Sithxace is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-26-2005, 08:38 PM   #13
Jeff
Rating: Awesome
 
Jeff's Avatar
 
Status: Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Posts: 8,431
Current Game: SWTOR
Imperialist Meatbags Guild Officer The Walking Carpets Guild Officer Notable contributor LFN Staff Member 
I do not think that Sidious and Plageius had anything to do with Anakin's conception. I think that it was truly the Force that concieved him. I mean, he is the chosen one. But the prophecy was wrong.


Follow me on Twitter
Follow StarWarsMMO.net on Twitter | Like us on Facebook
Jeff is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 06-03-2005, 08:17 PM   #14
OmegaNothing
 
OmegaNothing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 180
There is no right or wrong answer, its one of those things where Lucas has just left it open for the audience to believe what they want.
OmegaNothing is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 07-13-2005, 04:02 AM   #15
Caraffa
Lurker
 
Caraffa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: sallonica greece
Posts: 2
well sayin that the chosen one-the one who finally brought balance to the force was a "lab" experiment of plagueis and sidious is just ludicrous..If the reason behind his conception was malevolent then i dont think he would bring the balance...Beisdes it was a parthenogenesis sththat only happened in the christian religion and it was a sign that the child who was born was the Chosen One..Now we dont even know if Plagueis was Sidious master...if thats so sidious must have been more than 100 years old for he mentions that the jedi know this legend...I think that the whole Anakin was brought to life by plagueis and sidious issue is not worth discussing for its obvious that anakin was a child of the force who was used to bring it to balance...


"As an adolescent, I aspired to lasting fame, I craved factual certainty and I thirsted for a meaningful vision of human life; so, I became a scientist. This is like becoming an archbishop so you can meet girls"
Matt Cartmill
Caraffa is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 07-13-2005, 04:19 AM   #16
TK-8252
Get Cloned.
 
TK-8252's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 5,850
Plagueis was Sidious's master, and Sidious did kill him, but anything further known about Plagueis cannot be known.

Sidious just says that the tale isn't a story the Jedi would tell you, not that the Jedi know it. Sidious is an old guy indeed, but as far as I know he's not ancient.

But yeah, Anakin was the Chosen One. If he was really a demon spawn then he wouldn't have killed Sidious.
TK-8252 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 07-15-2005, 01:43 PM   #17
Doomie
Do the Black Mage!
 
Doomie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: The black void...
Posts: 2,445
The prophecy about the Chosen One was a Jedi prophecy, right? And the Jedi wanted it to happen. So it must've meant something good to the Jedi.

Yoda seemed pretty sure that he knew what 'Balance of the Force' meant, because when everything was going to hell, and the Sith were taking control, he said that the prophecy might've been misinterpreted, implying that the more power the dark side has, the less balance there is in the Force.

So in conclusion, I'd say Balance in the Force means that the dark side has lost it's power.

Afterall, if the Force was Yin/Yang, it would be hard for the Jedi to achieve balance, and they probably wouldn't exist at all.
Doomie is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 07-15-2005, 04:26 PM   #18
Jeff
Rating: Awesome
 
Jeff's Avatar
 
Status: Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Posts: 8,431
Current Game: SWTOR
Imperialist Meatbags Guild Officer The Walking Carpets Guild Officer Notable contributor LFN Staff Member 
Quote:
Originally posted by Doomie
So in conclusion, I'd say Balance in the Force means that the dark side has lost it's power.

Afterall, if the Force was Yin/Yang, it would be hard for the Jedi to achieve balance, and they probably wouldn't exist at all.
I think you are mostly right. To bring balance to the Force, the Jedi must destroy the Sith so there are no more Dark Side Force users. Then there will no longer be a gap between the Light and Dark sides of the Force.


Follow me on Twitter
Follow StarWarsMMO.net on Twitter | Like us on Facebook
Jeff is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 07-16-2005, 02:03 AM   #19
Kryllith
Hideous Twit
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 1,150
Quote:
Originally posted by Caraffa
well sayin that the chosen one-the one who finally brought balance to the force was a "lab" experiment of plagueis and sidious is just ludicrous..If the reason behind his conception was malevolent then i dont think he would bring the balance...Beisdes it was a parthenogenesis sththat only happened in the christian religion and it was a sign that the child who was born was the Chosen One..Now we dont even know if Plagueis was Sidious master...if thats so sidious must have been more than 100 years old for he mentions that the jedi know this legend...I think that the whole Anakin was brought to life by plagueis and sidious issue is not worth discussing for its obvious that anakin was a child of the force who was used to bring it to balance...
Whether or not his conception was malelovent is a matter of opinion. Assuming that Anakin's conception was the will of the Force, and not some diabolical plan of the Sith, suggests that the prophecy serves the natural order. If that's the case, then Anakin's may very well have been destined to slaughter younglings and betray the Jedi order if it was the will of the Force. Sure, the Jedi might deem such actions as malelovent, but if such actions are what's ordained by nature (or the Force) then perhaps the views of the Jedi are wrong.

Besides, what's to say that the whole prophecy of the Chosen One wasn't instigated by the Sith. We already know that the Sith have the means and the methods of manipulating numerous factors behind the scenes. For all we know they Sith could have presented the prophecy into Jedi lore eons ago as an attempt to destroy the Jedi order from the inside. It could simply be that until Anakin, everything required for the fall of the Jedi never quite fell into place.

Quote:
Originally posted by Caraffa
Yoda seemed pretty sure that he knew what 'Balance of the Force' meant, because when everything was going to hell, and the Sith were taking control, he said that the prophecy might've been misinterpreted, implying that the more power the dark side has, the less balance there is in the Force.

So in conclusion, I'd say Balance in the Force means that the dark side has lost it's power.

Afterall, if the Force was Yin/Yang, it would be hard for the Jedi to achieve balance, and they probably wouldn't exist at all.
That's the point though. The Jedi wouldn't be able to achieve balance because they're placing their own strictures on what they believe is good and proper use of the Force. Quigon spoke of the Living Force as an entity which guides all life provided that life is willing to listen. While he was a Jedi, he had problems with the code, as indicated in The Phantom Menace when Obiwan tells him, "If you would just follow the code you would be on the council." It appears to me that one of the reasons Quigon was so strident in getting Anakin trained is because he was actively following the Living Force rather than the code, and apparentely the Force wanted Anakin to be trained. It just turns out that perhaps it wanted him trained so he could eliminate the legions of Jedi whose very adherence to the code may have been detrimental to the entrophic laws of nature. Heck, even the name of the Jedi has the word "order" in it.

As for Yoda misinterpreting the prophecy, well the Jedi apparently interpreted the balance as eliminating the Sith and their dark influence. As such, Yoda's indication that there might be a misinterpretation of the prophecy suggests that he was beginning to believe that bringing balance to the Force meant destroying the Jedi Order.
Kryllith is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 07-16-2005, 09:48 PM   #20
Kurgan
Headhunter
 
Kurgan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1997
Location: The Dawn of Time
Posts: 18,319
LFN Staff Member 10 year veteran! 
According to Lucas on the Star Wars DVD commentaries, the Force is out of balance because of the Sith.

HOWEVER, Lucas could always back down and change his mind, claiming he was only "interpreting the Prophecy from the Jedi's point of view for the audience."

The whole "yin/yang" thing is a common interpretation, but apparently not what Lucas had in mind.

In TPM the Jedi Council talks about the prophecy before they learn of Darth Maul's identity (Ki Adi Mundi scoffs at the idea of the Sith returning after a thousand years). So did they notice the Force was "out of balance" before that? Or were they just spouting the prophecy line and grasping at straws? If everything was just fine, why bother trying to follow this crazy old prophecy? Don't the Jedi have the ability to see the future anyway? ChefElf says on his site "If broken it is not, fix it do you not"

If Sideous was dampening out their powers and screwing with the Force all his life, then the Force must have been out of balance for a long time. Heck, it may have been out of balance for thousands of years if the Sith were always this powerful in hiding. Who knows!

The whole "The Jedi were too complacent and had to be wiped out to break the galaxy out of its lethargy" is very Dune-esque and could be cool, but so far that hasn't been confirmed or denied.

We'll see what Lucas says about it on the ROTS DVD in November...


As to Plagueis, he's "officially" (C-Level canon) Palpatine's Master per the novelisation and Visual Dictionary. As to his creating Anakin, that's pure conjecture. In early Script Drafts though apparently it was in fact true (or at least was what Palpatine SAID really happened.. in the movie he just kind of hints at it, in either case he could still be lying, as he was lying about the "apprentice" knowing everything.. since if he himself was the apprentice, he later admitted not having "achieved" that power).


Download JK2 maps for JA Server|BOOT CAMP!|Strategic Academy|
(JA Server: 108.178.55.189:29070)


"The Concussion Rifle is the weapon of a Jedi Knight Player, an elegant weapon, from a more civilized community." - Kyle Katarn
Kurgan is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 07-17-2005, 01:51 AM   #21
Astrotoy7
A Face from The Past
 
Astrotoy7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 10,284
Notable contributor Helpful! Folder extraordinaire LFN Staff Member 
Interesting that a character mentioned in the movies gets C level canon But of course, sidious never fully clarifies it does he...

There is a recent Rolling Stone interview where the interviewer directly asks GL something along the lines of "Did the Sith create anakin"

His response was that he kept is ambigious quite deliberately. As it heightened the mystery around anakins creation. Whether it was actually true or not did not matter as a result, as it became a tidbit palaptine threw to anakin to lure him towards the dark side...

It will be cool to hear the DVD commentary in November. That conversation is a long scene so GL can lay it out straight ( I hope they dont spend that whole time talking about the MonCal water ballet damnit)

mtfbwya


Asinus asinum fricat
Astrotoy7 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 07-18-2005, 04:37 AM   #22
Doomie
Do the Black Mage!
 
Doomie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: The black void...
Posts: 2,445
Quote:
In TPM the Jedi Council talks about the prophecy before they learn of Darth Maul's identity (Ki Adi Mundi scoffs at the idea of the Sith returning after a thousand years). So did they notice the Force was "out of balance" before that? Or were they just spouting the prophecy line and grasping at straws? If everything was just fine, why bother trying to follow this crazy old prophecy? Don't the Jedi have the ability to see the future anyway? ChefElf says on his site "If broken it is not, fix it do you not"
You raise an interesting point. I think that Unbalance can probably be sensed, since you can sense distrubances in the Force. Perhaps Unbalance in the Force isn't necissarily caused by the Sith, which is why they would know about it, but not about the Sith.
Doomie is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 07-20-2005, 08:50 AM   #23
Kurgan
Headhunter
 
Kurgan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1997
Location: The Dawn of Time
Posts: 18,319
LFN Staff Member 10 year veteran! 
Quote:
Originally posted by Astrotoy7
Interesting that a character mentioned in the movies gets C level canon But of course, sidious never fully clarifies it does he...
Not the character of Darth Plagueis (though Palpy is extremely vague... I guess all that's G-Level canon is that Palpy tells a story about a character by that name, claiming it as a Sith Legend, which it may or may not really be) is C-Level... only that Plagueis really is Palpatine's master, and the same character being referred to in his "story."

It's like the Outrider appearing in ANH:SE. Just because we see the ship flying by in the background doesn't make everything in the Shadows of the Empire game/comic/novel all G-Level, just that one detail, that a ship of the same make & model exists at that time. It all "Fits together" but it's categorized that way.

Quote:
There is a recent Rolling Stone interview where the interviewer directly asks GL something along the lines of "Did the Sith create anakin"

His response was that he kept is ambigious quite deliberately. As it heightened the mystery around anakins creation. Whether it was actually true or not did not matter as a result, as it became a tidbit palaptine threw to anakin to lure him towards the dark side...
Well that's certainly a far cry from all the fans who on their first viewing said it was "obvious."

I mean using your imagination, best case scenario, assuming any possibility is true, boom, you've got it. But without the supporting official statements there's plenty of room for doubting such a claim, especially given Palpy's tendancy to spout lies or half truths for his own benefit. Very interesting though.

Quote:
It will be cool to hear the DVD commentary in November. That conversation is a long scene so GL can lay it out straight ( I hope they dont spend that whole time talking about the MonCal water ballet damnit)
Or have Ben Burt (?) talking about how he made all the sound effects in that scene. Arrggh, you did a great job Mr. Sound Effects Man, but can't we get some story commentary during the important scenes? It's like he bribed the Lowry Digital guys to give him more air time for the OT DVD's... heh

Anyway, yeah.. something like that.


Download JK2 maps for JA Server|BOOT CAMP!|Strategic Academy|
(JA Server: 108.178.55.189:29070)


"The Concussion Rifle is the weapon of a Jedi Knight Player, an elegant weapon, from a more civilized community." - Kyle Katarn
Kurgan is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 07-20-2005, 08:53 AM   #24
Kurgan
Headhunter
 
Kurgan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1997
Location: The Dawn of Time
Posts: 18,319
LFN Staff Member 10 year veteran! 
Quote:
Originally posted by Doomie
You raise an interesting point. I think that Unbalance can probably be sensed, since you can sense distrubances in the Force. Perhaps Unbalance in the Force isn't necissarily caused by the Sith, which is why they would know about it, but not about the Sith.
Also, if the Force was (for the sake of argument) "out of balance" for 1,000 years (while the Sith were hiding) and maybe even 2,000 years if we go from the time of the Sith emergance (according to the TPM novelisation, forgetting any ancient Sith Empires from the TOTJ comics for example)... wouldn't the Jedi be "used" to the Force feeling like this? Wouldn't they be used to it since this is all they've ever known?

However, the ROTS novel disagrees with this idea since it gives the impression (from Obi-Wan's point of view) that Kenobi remembers a time from his youth when the the Force felt more real and didn't have this "shrouded" sense to it. So apparently it's only been like this for less than 35 years (if Obi-Wan is in his late 30's by the time of ROTS). So how did Palpatine hide from everyone all this time? Then again we can ask how the Sith hid all this time... but most of the Sith I bet weren't Senators...


Download JK2 maps for JA Server|BOOT CAMP!|Strategic Academy|
(JA Server: 108.178.55.189:29070)


"The Concussion Rifle is the weapon of a Jedi Knight Player, an elegant weapon, from a more civilized community." - Kyle Katarn
Kurgan is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 07-21-2005, 07:04 AM   #25
Boxah
Rookie
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 49
There is no answer, it's been left to the audience. It's interesting to read the theories but battling it out is never going to provide proof enough to have a definitive answer.
Boxah is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 07-21-2005, 12:26 PM   #26
lil_dude
Forumite
 
lil_dude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 543
Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
So how did Palpatine hide from everyone all this time? Then again we can ask how the Sith hid all this time... but most of the Sith I bet weren't Senators...
How did Yoda and Obi Wan hide from Palpetine and Vader? Vader didn't even know Obi Wan was still alive untill he arived on the Death Star. Yoda, Obi Wan, Palpetine and even Qui-Gon were all very intune with the force and would be able to hide themselves from weaker minds or even cloud evenly matched minds from sencing them.

At the end of ROTS Yoda tells Obi Wan that Qui-Gon will seek him out on Tatooine and train him, I assume this means complete his understanding of the force thus making him as intune with the force as Yoda and Qui-Gon, which is why Obi Wan can sence the distruction of Alderan. Then on the Death Star in ANH Obi Wan tells Vader that he has become much more powerful since the last time they met and thate he has far exceeded his powers, but Obi Wan knew it wasn't his destiny to defeat Vader and that he couldn't guide Luke as well if he was not one with the force, so he allows Vader to strike him down infront of Luke to help feed some of Luke's rage and make him more of a balanced Jedi then what they once were. Luke never becomes as strong as other Jedi by ROTJ but that's because his training was never fully completed, but Obi Wan and Yoda would always be there to guide him.

As for Anakin being created by the Sith I think it is a reasonable assumtion to make but there is no real proof of it, either way it's interesting to read and theorize about this kind of stuff.
lil_dude is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-15-2005, 05:08 PM   #27
Lord Bane
Lurker
 
Lord Bane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Byss
Posts: 5
I believe that.... George Lucas is a Movie Director even if he did create Star Wars, at that time he was just a early to mid-20's dude trying to make films. I believe that the Force itself is of a basic origin, no dark or light sides. It is referred to the Force-users as Jedi but those who use the force for evil ways would be called the Sith. Depending of the corruption of the person, many may believe that in general the peraon may be Jedi or Sith. But say the person may have mixed thoughts on the sitiation will mostly likely accept the decision of acting what he is considered to do. But back to Anakins birth. Anakin was said to have been born of the Force. Some say Plagius commanded the Force to create him and others say it was the will of the Force. I believe in ages long ago, when the first Jedi and Sith appeared in the galaxy, that a pact was made. Seeing that all of the current Force Users were already influenced by the Jedi or Sith, bot laid a hand in the creation of Anakin to balance the Force because both knew the undyeing conflict would result in the utter destruction of the Force itself. What if the JEdi and Sith commanded the Force to create a super-being capable of bring the Force into balance, this I believe. The Force would be considered a God if it was a being but then again, it is considered to have a Dark and light side. I leave it for debate....


Lord Bane is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-20-2005, 08:12 PM   #28
Kurgan
Headhunter
 
Kurgan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1997
Location: The Dawn of Time
Posts: 18,319
LFN Staff Member 10 year veteran! 
Well I guess we're left to believe that "masking your presence from other Force users" is a simple trick that any half-way decent Jedi can learn. Luke learned it, Yoda learned it, Obi-Wan learned it, etc.

I was meaning if in order to hide you had to "dampen out the powers of those around you" which is how I interpret the "shroud of the Dark Side" thing going from AOTC-ROTS, then it wouldn't quite make sense. Yoda and Obi-Wan would have had to be using the Force to cloud Vader/Palpatine's force abilities, and wouldn't they notice? After all Palpy is the one who's been pulling this trick on everybody for a decade or two, so he'd be one to know! And Luke, was he dampening out Vader or Palpy's powers when he hid from them? In fact, he hid from Vader, but not Palpatine ("I have felt him Master." "Strange that I have not." etc).

So I'm guessing whatever power lets you hide from other Force users is seperate from whatever power lets you "shroud" (or even drain) the Force abilities of those around you (something apparently only Palpatine has achieved). Then again I also wonder if the "shroud of the Dark Side" thing continued to work during the classic trilogy according to Lucas's idea. Sure perhaps it was a massive strain on Palpatine's power, and he figured he wouldn't need it anymore if he was firmly on the throne and all the Jedi were thought to be wiped out... Does the shroud only limit the power of "lightside" users? Or did it also limit the power of other Sith? So many questions... I wonder if Lucas will even attempt to answer any of them come November. But I'll be curious to find out!


Download JK2 maps for JA Server|BOOT CAMP!|Strategic Academy|
(JA Server: 108.178.55.189:29070)


"The Concussion Rifle is the weapon of a Jedi Knight Player, an elegant weapon, from a more civilized community." - Kyle Katarn
Kurgan is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-20-2005, 08:26 PM   #29
Kurgan
Headhunter
 
Kurgan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1997
Location: The Dawn of Time
Posts: 18,319
LFN Staff Member 10 year veteran! 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Bane
I believe that.... George Lucas is a Movie Director even if he did create Star Wars, at that time he was just a early to mid-20's dude trying to make films. I believe that the Force itself is of a basic origin, no dark or light sides. It is referred to the Force-users as Jedi but those who use the force for evil ways would be called the Sith. Depending of the corruption of the person, many may believe that in general the peraon may be Jedi or Sith. But say the person may have mixed thoughts on the sitiation will mostly likely accept the decision of acting what he is considered to do. But back to Anakins birth. Anakin was said to have been born of the Force. Some say Plagius commanded the Force to create him and others say it was the will of the Force. I believe in ages long ago, when the first Jedi and Sith appeared in the galaxy, that a pact was made. Seeing that all of the current Force Users were already influenced by the Jedi or Sith, bot laid a hand in the creation of Anakin to balance the Force because both knew the undyeing conflict would result in the utter destruction of the Force itself. What if the JEdi and Sith commanded the Force to create a super-being capable of bring the Force into balance, this I believe. The Force would be considered a God if it was a being but then again, it is considered to have a Dark and light side. I leave it for debate....
In the original script drafts they talked about "The Force" and then what the Black Knights (Or Dark Knights) of the Sith used was called "para-Force". It was some kind of corruption. In the movies the word "Sith" is never mentioned (until TPM; though the term is applied to Darth Vader in the original SW novel from 1976). It's just "Jedi" and then "not Jedi." Vader is a former Jedi. We have no background for the Emperor, and until ESB we don't have any idea he had force powers (the novel makes no reference to that, in fact it makes it sound like he was just a corrupt politician, who may not even control the whole Empire anymore, due to manipulation by bureacrats and interests... though people explain this away by saying that particular passage was from the point of view of somebody who didn't witness the events of ROTJ). In the movies there is "the Force" and then "the Dark Side of the Force." Again, as if the Dark Side is an abberation, a corruption. In the movies there are no "force users" who are not either a Jedi or a Sith (well except Leia I guess, but we're given the impression that Luke will train her as a Jedi and in time she'll learn to "use it has [Luke] has").

The EU novels, starting with Heir to the Empire in the early 1990's coined the term "Dark Jedi" to refer to any Dark Side user pretty much. Authors weren't allowed to mess with the history of the Sith to a point, though they did eventually by making them red skinned aliens conquered by Dark Jedi thousands of years ago, etc. etc. Clearly the history of the Sith wasn't fleshed out at that time and it was changed when TPM came down the wire (the novel goes into great detail, setting new precedents for things about them). So then we got the rule of two, the Darth being a title thing, etc (up to that point we all thought it was a personal name.. notice how Ben refers to Vader as "Darth" multiple times in ANH).

In the movies there is no mention of a "Light Side" (which comes from the EU's dualism motiph of the Force and especially the video games in order to give a name to what you are as a non-Dark Sider). In ROTJ Luke says he hopes he can bring Vader back "to the good side." That's it! Even in the prequels we get no mention of the Light Side.

So interesting as it may be, the ideas that have started to creep in to fans or even EU writers' thinking like that the Force is the Yin/Yang and balancing means an equal number of Light Side & Dark Side users (or "uninhibited Jedi" who use both sides of the Force equally) and the idea that.

According to OT, the Force is something natural, a "life force" or whatnot. But then in the prequels it is given attributes that suggest a deity of sorts. Lucas intended the Force as a metaphor for faith, spirituality, etc. so the genericness makes a bit of sense that way. In-universe terms though I don't know. If the Force really has a plan, it's not fully known to those who practice the Force, I guess much as in theism the Will of God is not fully known to even the most ardhent believers. Even Prophets, favored with special revelation only get a glimpse of the Divine Plan.

Then again the Sith claim that their view of the Force is actually the correct one ("He will show you the true nature of the Force") but from an out-of-universe point of view, the Dark Side is a corruption, not the thing itself. I'm going out on a limb here, but the way I see it, Life sustains the Force (which came first? who knows. perhaps "God" created the Force in the beginning or they were created simultaneously) but doing evil creates the Dark Side. By "evil" we're talking passions lead to the inflicting harm such as hatred, etc. you've heard the list before. Of course this raises the question of how the Jedi can be just fierce warriors, killing with seeming impunity, without falling to the Darkside, but oh well, it's not a perfect theory.


Download JK2 maps for JA Server|BOOT CAMP!|Strategic Academy|
(JA Server: 108.178.55.189:29070)


"The Concussion Rifle is the weapon of a Jedi Knight Player, an elegant weapon, from a more civilized community." - Kyle Katarn
Kurgan is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Go Back   LucasForums > Network > Star Wars > Prequel Trilogy > Anakin's Birth / Prophecy (SPOILER)

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:10 AM.

LFNetwork, LLC ©2002-2011 - All rights reserved.
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.