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Old 07-20-2005, 04:26 AM   #41
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Well, I don't care for anime. (As a result, I am not too terribly popular with many of the students in my art classes). Mainly because it has never really evolved. The only anime that I have ever liked came out in the late 70's - early 80's. Titles like Battle of the Planets and, my all-time favorite, Starblazers. They are what I believe to be the best that anime has to offer. Everything that has come out from the Japanese animators since then has been nothing but rehash of the same drawing style. Sure, they spiced it up with computer graphics, but if you look at the characters themselves, they are virtually the same. Every time that I see a tall and slender female, I see Nova (from Starblazers). Whenever I see a heroic, but average sized male, I see Wildstar (also Starblazers). I just think they need to move on and come up with something more original in the art of character development.

Just my 2 cents.

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Old 07-20-2005, 08:40 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by Aash Li
Jedigoku, you could always stop posting on that other thread. I didnt even know it existed until you complained about this one, and it wasnt even at the top of the list time you or whoever posted on it again.

Yeah, what Prime said. Just check out any of the above anime (except for DBZ).
I didn't post in it someone else did and redhalke said it first



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Old 07-20-2005, 12:34 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by MdKnightR
Everything that has come out from the Japanese animators since then has been nothing but rehash of the same drawing style. Sure, they spiced it up with computer graphics, but if you look at the characters themselves, they are virtually the same. Every time that I see a tall and slender female, I see Nova (from Starblazers). Whenever I see a heroic, but average sized male, I see Wildstar (also Starblazers). I just think they need to move on and come up with something more original in the art of character development.

Just my 2 cents.

MdK [/B]
Thats like saying all Asians look the same. Theres several different drawing styles, and even the ones that are similar have great diferences. Korean art looks alot more realistic the Japanese, not sure what Chinese anime/manga looks like if they have any...

I curious to know what series you have looked at to have come to these conclusions. Sure there are some similarities, especially in how faces are drawn, big eyes, small faces, tiny mouths and the like.
American comics and their cartoon version do however look basically all the same in the character department... they all seem to take their cues from Stan Lee, which is no big suprise really since he was a huge influence on american comic makers. But if you look at Hannah Barbarian cartoons every single one of them looked the same in basic design. They never changed their clothes, never did anything with their hair... nothing.

So you should if anything, check out other anime, and give it an actual chance. ^_^
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Old 07-20-2005, 01:41 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by Aash Li
Thats like saying all Asians look the same. Theres several different drawing styles, and even the ones that are similar have great diferences. Korean art looks alot more realistic the Japanese, not sure what Chinese anime/manga looks like if they have any...

I curious to know what series you have looked at to have come to these conclusions. Sure there are some similarities, especially in how faces are drawn, big eyes, small faces, tiny mouths and the like.
American comics and their cartoon version do however look basically all the same in the character department... they all seem to take their cues from Stan Lee, which is no big suprise really since he was a huge influence on american comic makers. But if you look at Hannah Barbarian cartoons every single one of them looked the same in basic design. They never changed their clothes, never did anything with their hair... nothing.

So you should if anything, check out other anime, and give it an actual chance. ^_^
I resent the statement that my opinion on Anime is in any way reflective of the racist comment "all Asians look the same." I simply meant that most (probably not all) anime that I have been exposed to has a very obvious formula and pattern to the drawing technique. You said yourself, "Sure there are some similarities, especially in how faces are drawn, big eyes, small faces, tiny mouths and the like" which is what I was referring to in my previous post when I talked about artistic character development. I am sure there are plenty of Asian artists who know how to draw differently.

Let me tell you a brief story. One of my former students who has stayed in touch since graduation is a huge fan of Anime. She has a large collection of DVD's that, according to her, are very rarely found in the USA. Many of them don't even have English dubbed voiceovers. After having seen a few of them, I still think it is highly unoriginal.

Hanna-Barbara cartoons are the same way, except for the fact that most of their famous titles that are still run endlessly today are from the 60's. Scooby Doo looked the same from its premier in 69 all the way through the late 80s. But the most recent incarnations look quite a bit different.

As for Stan Lee, I think it is a broadly inaccurate assumption that American cartoonists all take their cues from him. Stan Lee's original style of drawing is quite static. A far cry from the art of Todd McFarlane, Frank Miller, and Bill Sienkiewicz (another link for Bill).

All of these comparisons bring me back to what I think we are missing. Anime is a word that is derived from 2 words - Japanese and Animation. Dictionary.com defines it as "A style of animation developed in Japan, characterized by stylized colorful art, futuristic settings, violence, and sex" and "a style of cartoon or animation made in Japan that focuses on futuristic themes and robotlike characters; also called anime." For a while it was called Japanimation. Therefore it has become known as inherently Japanese. It is what the world thinks of when "Japan" and "cartoons" are mentioned in the same sentence. But if you mention American cartoons, there is such a variety that there is no one American way to cartoon. Sure, one could say that most Marvel Comics look alike, or most Hanna-Barbara cartoons look alike, or most episodes of the Simpsons look alike, but the fact of the matter is that when you compare them to each other, there is quite a difference. I can't say the same thing about Japanese cartoons. If there is a style of Japanese cartooning other than Anime, I don't know about it. And the reason that I don't know about it probably has something to do with the fact that Anime has become a monopoly and drowned out the more serious Asian cartoonists.

Another 2 cents. So 2 + 2 = 4 cents I guess.

MdK
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Old 07-20-2005, 02:04 PM   #45
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^^^^^
I hate racist comments

second yes most anime is similar in appearance but to generalize all anime in to one group is IMPOSSIBLE since the variety of the actual TV rateings they range from G rated to X rated so NOT all anime is the same and if there wasn't some violence or some other thing it would be like watching an animated soap opera *shutters*ack and granted most are set in a futuristic time frames but keep in mind that most of the disigns from the matrix came from anime and manga there are anime that is set in modern time IE yu yu hakusho, or ancient times IE rurouni kenshin or samuri X. so you can't judge all anime by the ones you have already seen



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Old 07-20-2005, 02:05 PM   #46
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And I wasnt saying that what you said was reflectiive of that, but it amounts to the same thing (and Im *not* implying you are racist!!). You said so yourself that you havent been exposed to much anime, so youre lumping all anime into the same category of it all looks the same because of what you have seen (or atleast thats how it sounds to me). Its not any different than the opinion I had of anime in general when i was a teenager due to my cousin's obsession with Ranma 1/2 (ugh). At the time I thought all anime sucked because I was sick of watching the junk he liked. But then I got into it because of Cartoon Network and was like, ok not all anime sucks, and now I think only certain anime sucks. ^_^

I apologize for the misunderstanding though, it wasnt intentional.

Not all comic artists have the same style as Stan Lee, but they are similar. If you compare the faces and body styles (objectively), you will note that they are all very detailed and go for an almost realistic, but still cartoony (I dont mean that derogatorily), all the guys are usually drawn with muscular bodies, and all the women are drawn with largeish breasts and curvey bodies - and by all I mean all the main characters, especially in super-hero type comics.

Anime is anime. If you go to Japan they will call anything animated anime, because that is their word for it. Just like alot of people here in the west call anything animated a cartoon no matter what country it comes from.
Not every series is set in the future, not every series has loads of violence, or revolves around robots or sex either. I can name several anime and manga that have none of those qualities but are just as good, well except for violence, though the type of violence in those shows are more akin to stuff like Buggs Bunny - comical violence, not warfare and atomic blasts and blood and guts type violence.

Again, if you take offence to anything I said, I mostly likely didnt mean it that, way, sorry. ^_^;
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Old 07-20-2005, 02:12 PM   #47
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The drawing technique is similar BUT you are missing the whole point of Anime which purely focuses on storytelling rather then artistic development.

In Japan, anime is the same as live action shows or movies here.

I don't see nobody whining that the same actor plays 20 different roles in various movies and TV shows.


I find quite odd that dictionary.com would put such an innaccurate definition of what anime is.


I personnally love anime, but that doesn't mean I hate western animation.
Look, in all my life, I haven't heard a single anime fan saying that western animation sucks or that he hates western animation. But when it comes to western cartoon fans, its always:" Anime sucks because of "insert reason A" and ...."

It gets annoying.


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Old 07-20-2005, 02:22 PM   #48
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you yup I get annoyed by that too but what there is something that almost made me cry when someones used the power puff girl and dragonballz in the same sentence I've found that most people who say anime sux have NEVER seen it i mean WFT they are judging something they have never seen



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Old 07-20-2005, 02:27 PM   #49
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I like American cartoons, and I would like Anime if I knew when it was on, what channel, etc. I can never find it on my tv, so I have never really gotten into it.


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Old 07-20-2005, 02:30 PM   #50
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Old 07-20-2005, 02:46 PM   #51
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to lukeiamyourdad: I never said it sucked either. I just said that I don't care for it. And, of course no one complains about a real person playing numerous roles in the movies. What are we going to do, change our faces? I know that Anime is more about the storyline than the art, but that is one of the points where I take exception to the genre. I think that if you want to tell a story and not care about visual art, write a book or make an audio recording. That is what I like about Bill Sienkiewicz. When he was working on The New Mutants for Marvel Comics back in the 80s, it was more about the art than the storyline. Well, that's not entirely true, the story was told through the pictures. Frank Miller did that a lot as well. Check out Bill's links in my previous post.

to Aash Li: No offense was taken, I just wanted to make myself clear. I have seen lots of anime. On occasion, I have watched Cowboy Bebop on Adult Swim when nothing else was on. I know that there is a difference between adult anime and kids stuff like Dragonball Z, but the main difference is in the content, not the art. I just don't care for the visuals of the characters because the style hasn't evolved.

Just 2 more cents. At this rate, I'll be rich by the time the Argo takes off for Iscandar!

MdK
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Old 07-21-2005, 01:12 PM   #52
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@ AAsh Li on the dbz topic lets agree to disagree and not bring it up

@Those of you who are thinking about checking anime` out you should not get discouraged because you are lost because most anime is in a series and each episode builds on the last and once you've seen a few episodes you will begin to understand the story more



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Old 07-21-2005, 01:30 PM   #53
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A warning though, there are SOME anime that no matter how many episodes you watch, or how many times you have watched an episode, or even how closely you paid attention, they STILL wont make any sense.

Paranoia Agent being the one that I think of most readily.

Well ok Jedigoku, even though its cute to watch you get flustered.

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Old 07-21-2005, 02:14 PM   #54
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sometimes u think that an anime is kiddish but most people fail to relize the deeper plot of the matter like fooly cooly people think it is just a bunch of random crap but in actuality it is about growing up if u get past all the chaos


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Old 07-21-2005, 09:05 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cyborgninja
sometimes u think that an anime is kiddish but most people fail to relize the deeper plot of the matter like fooly cooly people think it is just a bunch of random crap but in actuality it is about growing up if u get past all the chaos
And sometimes an anime is just random crap.

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Old 07-21-2005, 09:08 PM   #56
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Ok, ya'll inspired me

right after work, I sat down to watch some telly and cool off, I was watching one of those Sinbad movies (never really saw much of them either, huh)
And at the bottom of the screen it said that there was one of those Anime movies coming on, I figured, well I might as well watch it while I'm sitting in a shady basement
It was called Black Magic 66 or something like that, the title kind of made me think twice, but I figured I'd give it a shot, it was kind of interesting, but there was a lot of stuff that didn't make sense, like military robots having opportunities to kill their targets, and just doing something stupid instead,
Has anybody seen that one, and can they tell me if it's a quality example of the genre,
if that's supposed to be a good one, then maybe I won't watch anymore, cuz it was pretty corny

I'm guessing it wasn't one of the kiddish ones becaue the main character was buck naked in the opening scene


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Old 07-21-2005, 09:24 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by MdKnightR
to lukeiamyourdad: I never said it sucked either. I just said that I don't care for it. And, of course no one complains about a real person playing numerous roles in the movies. What are we going to do, change our faces?
It's like re-using a winning formula. You know Samuel L. Jackson is a star and he's going to help sell your movie. That's why people hire him back.
That's why people who like anime don't mind the similarities. It's a winning formula, it's not broken, let's re-use it.

Quote:
Originally posted by MdKnightR
I know that Anime is more about the storyline than the art, but that is one of the points where I take exception to the genre. I think that if you want to tell a story and not care about visual art, write a book or make an audio recording.
Then why have TV shows? Why have music videos when it's all about the song? Why have movies based on books?
Simple, people want to see it with their eyes. They want to see the action unfolding in front of their eyes.
You have to know that this is something done on the other side of the planet. Their way of thinking is very different then ours. If you've ever watched some live-action japanese or korean shows, you'll actually see things that are supposed to be in anime.
What we consider as cartoons is the equivalent of live-action shows for them.
Which is why the focus is entirely on story-telling. It's live action. It's like a Star Trek serie. It's any TV serie. Just without actors and using animation.
Also, it has no borders. Western animation is plagued by this "kid friendly" mindset. It means that a cartoon has to be either kid friendly or a comedy.
The only western cartoon that dared go past that border (in my knowledge, I'd be very happy if you could tell me about others who did the same) is the Spawn animated serie.
Anime has been doing psycho-analysis of their characters for over twenty-years. They've explored mature subjects for that long. Anime is getting more popular because of that simple fact. It feels more mature. It simply doesn't feel kiddy.

There is a style in which anime is done. You'll notice that there's a lot of images that are nothing more then a painting of a setting, creating a certain nostalgia.
There's a lot of cases of a scene consisting of nothing more then a bucket of water with water dripping into it.

Quote:
Originally posted by MdKnightR
That is what I like about Bill Sienkiewicz. When he was working on The New Mutants for Marvel Comics back in the 80s, it was more about the art than the storyline. Well, that's not entirely true, the story was told through the pictures. Frank Miller did that a lot as well. Check out Bill's links in my previous post.
Those are comic books and we're talking about animation.
However, I fully agree with you that western comic book artists surpass the japanese and by far.
Not only artistically, but also in terms of story-telling and plot development. They're at least equally good. Again, it's mainly because western comic books haven't been plagued by this wish to make it kid friendly.
I've read a bunch of comic books and frankly, they're not kid friendly anymore.


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Old 07-21-2005, 09:29 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by REDJOHNNYMIKE

It was called Black Magic 66 or something like that, the title kind of made me think twice, but I figured I'd give it a shot, it was kind of interesting, but there was a lot of stuff that didn't make sense, like military robots having opportunities to kill their targets, and just doing something stupid instead,
Has anybody seen that one, and can they tell me if it's a quality example of the genre,
if that's supposed to be a good one, then maybe I won't watch anymore, cuz it was pretty corny
Most probably a bad one. Never heard of it.

I'd suggest watching well known series first.
Cowboy Bebop is an excellent serie to start with. Not kiddie at all since there's quite a bit of blood and well, Faye Valentine

Ghost in The Shell is a good movie to start with but I would go for one of the Hayao Miyazaki directed movies. They might seem more kiddie but they certainly have a good charm. Try to rent Princess Momonoke or Spirited Away.


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Old 07-21-2005, 09:52 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by Prime
And sometimes an anime is just random crap.
yes there is also random crap anime to but not fooly cooly


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Old 07-21-2005, 10:25 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally posted by Aash Li

Well ok Jedigoku, even though its cute to watch you get flustered.

*Looks around the room* ok where are the cameras



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Old 07-21-2005, 10:45 PM   #61
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LIAYD, I couldnt have said that better myself (and I tried too!). lol

I think Japanese do better at animation, simply because of what was said, they dont have to make it kid-friendly. But their manga isnt that bad either. They dont tend to do the whole manga in colour like the majority of western comics, which is sad, because Ive always loved western comics because of that (Im an artist, I love colour).

Their story telling I think they are trying to do still image anime - hence all the dynamic actions shots and whatnot in the manga, instead of trying to convey the storyline. But not all manga suffers from kid-friendliness, theres bunches of them that are jsut as "bad" as some of their anime, when it comes to certain things.
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Old 07-21-2005, 11:02 PM   #62
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Like I said, I only watched it because it was on at the time, the stuff everybody recommended, Aash Li said was on at saturday night, and now isn't then
And renting around here, requires you to donate organs, and give up rights to first, second, and third born children

I'll catch them whenever I can though


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Old 07-22-2005, 12:03 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad
However, I fully agree with you that western comic book artists surpass the japanese and by far.
Not only artistically, but also in terms of story-telling and plot development. They're at least equally good. Again, it's mainly because western comic books haven't been plagued by this wish to make it kid friendly.
I've read a bunch of comic books and frankly, they're not kid friendly anymore.
Thank you for observing this! Not only that, but thanks for admitting it. Comics haven't been "kid friendly" for years. Even back when I was a kid, there were some themes that I am amazed made it past the Comics Code Authority in those days. Comics have been tackling tough issues for a very long time.

Quote:
Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad
Those are comic books and we're talking about animation.
Comic books or animation and their differences are not the issue that I brought up. I am talking about the style of drawing, not whether the pictures move.

Let me tell you, not only from the standpoint of an artist, but also from being an art teacher, that Anime is sometimes what keeps kids out of art colleges. I am not exaggerating here. Many a college rep. has come to my class over the years and the resounding advice that they have for high school students serious about pursuing an art career is "don't put Anime in your portfolio." The reason? The same thing that I have said from the beginning...lack of originality.

Now, before someone blows up and starts a new rant, let me clarify something. It is not that they see Anime as non-art...quite the contrary. But what the professors and admission counselors know is that the people who have been doing Anime professionally had to know how to draw traditionally in the first place. The caricatures that now have become a formula were originally drawn by artists that were familiar with human anatomy and movement. Only after having gained that knowledge can someone effectively exaggerate. I tell my kids to "learn the rules, then learn how to break them" all the time when it comes to such things. It is quite irritating when I get students who know how to whip out an Anime caricature in a few minutes but can't pick up a pencil and draw a vase sitting on the table in front of them. Or can't describe the correct proportions of the human face or body. Not only that (because that alone would be fairly easy to correct), many of them don't have a desire to truly learn how to draw! They are content in themselves to just doodle around and fantasize of cartooning for Disney instead of working toward those dreams! And, let me tell ya, if you can't draw that vase on the table, you can't work for Disney's animation department.

Many years ago, when Disney was working on The Hunchback of Notre Dame, they flew their artists to Paris so that they could spend weeks drawing the cathedral in every angle and detail. That takes skill! Skill that many of my Anime fans will never attain because they are stuck in their perceptions.

Anyway, that is about enough for my soapbox for now. I am sure I will have ample opportunity to get back on it tomorrow.

MdK
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Old 07-22-2005, 04:48 AM   #64
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Not to interrupted the discussion or anything... but the anime I like:

Current favorite:
Gundam SEED Destiny. Heck, that's where my avatar comes from.

Other anime I like:
Gundam SEED
Trigun
Cowboy Bebop (even got the movie)
Detective Conan ( I wish they bring it back to Adult Swin soon )

...and really that's all I've liked, out of the few anime series that I've actually watched.
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Old 07-22-2005, 06:47 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally posted by MdKnightR
I tell my kids to "learn the rules, then learn how to break them" all the time when it comes to such things. It is quite irritating when I get students who know how to whip out an Anime caricature in a few minutes but can't pick up a pencil and draw a vase sitting on the table in front of them.
My Art teacher did the exact same thing and it was probably the best advice I was ever given when it came to Art. Be it my sketches, cells, or animation. I'm glad to see she wasn't "unique"...

That's fantastic advice MdKnightR

Just thought you should know from a student that's heard that before. To the students you have that listens, they'll either appreciate the advice, or will in the future (even if they don't tell you )...


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Old 07-22-2005, 08:19 AM   #66
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My cousin is like that. He can draw anime fairly well, but cant draw other types of art worth crap. I on the other hand have a hell of a time drawing a figure that looks anime, let alone asian. lol.

Ashley's Art

And theres my art gallery to prove it! hehe. I took two years of art at the community college as well, and in school I took as many art classes as I could.
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Old 07-22-2005, 10:38 AM   #67
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@MdKnightR-

So you're an art teacher eh?

*puts his K98 at MdKnightR's feet as a sign of defeat*

Well, since you're an art teacher, it is more then natural that for you, that would be the most important aspect of anime.
To me, it isn't, but it's a question of preferences.


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Old 07-22-2005, 04:05 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChAiNz.2da
My Art teacher did the exact same thing and it was probably the best advice I was ever given when it came to Art. Be it my sketches, cells, or animation. I'm glad to see she wasn't "unique"...

That's fantastic advice MdKnightR

Just thought you should know from a student that's heard that before. To the students you have that listens, they'll either appreciate the advice, or will in the future (even if they don't tell you )...
Thanks so much for that bit of encouragement. I am glad to hear that I am not the only one who gives that kind of advice as well!

To Aash Li - Is there any more drawings that you have posted other than those 2? I am interested in seeing more.

To lukeiamyourdad - No need to be so dramatic. I just wanted people to know where I'm coming from.

MdK
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Old 07-22-2005, 04:15 PM   #69
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Click on the gallery link, theres loads there.
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Old 07-22-2005, 07:22 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally posted by MdKnightR

To lukeiamyourdad - No need to be so dramatic. I just wanted people to know where I'm coming from.
I was just kidding around


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Old 07-22-2005, 11:44 PM   #71
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I do like anime, but I don't know specificaly what I like.


LOTR and SW fan.

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Old 07-23-2005, 12:51 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally posted by StoneDragon
I do like anime, but I don't know specificaly what I like.
err that sounds impossible you like it but don't know what you like



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Old 07-23-2005, 01:45 AM   #73
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^^^

It's not impossible. He might like the style of drawing anime uses, but not some (rather stupid) show like Pokemon or Dragon Ball Z.


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Old 07-23-2005, 01:53 AM   #74
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errrrrr ya make fun of DBZ again and I'll.... note you have been warned



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Old 07-23-2005, 02:30 AM   #75
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Just poking at DBZ (is it real Anime?)

Seriously though, even my students who are hardcore about their Anime equate DBZ with Powerpuff Girls.

MdK
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Old 07-23-2005, 02:39 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally posted by Aash Li
Click on the gallery link, theres loads there.
I like quite a bit of your work. In particular the drawings that at first glance appear to be Anime, but have much different facial features. Shows originality.

MdK

P.S. If anyone is curious to see some of my work, go to ArtCrusade.com . I will have to warn ya that it has been quite a while since I updated the site.
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Old 07-23-2005, 09:46 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally posted by MdKnightR
Seriously though, even my students who are hardcore about their Anime equate DBZ with Powerpuff Girls.
It is probably safe to say that DBZ isn't really considered a serious work (i.e. adult themes) and tends to be aimed at the younger set.

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Old 07-23-2005, 11:14 AM   #78
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Quote:
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It is probably safe to say that DBZ isn't really considered a serious work (i.e. adult themes) and tends to be aimed at the younger set.
ie it's crap

To be honest, DBZ was among the first anime I liked but when I started watching "real" anime, DBZ turned out to be pretty abysmal.


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Old 07-23-2005, 11:50 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally posted by MdKnightR
Just poking at DBZ (is it real Anime?)

Seriously though, even my students who are hardcore about their Anime equate DBZ with Powerpuff Girls.

NEVER USE THOSE IN THE SAME SENTANCE AGAIN



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Old 07-23-2005, 12:18 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally posted by jedigoku

NEVER USE THOSE IN THE SAME SENTANCE AGAIN
What do you mean? Never use DBZ and Powerpuff Girls in the same sentence again? Uh-oh, looks like I just used DBZ and Powerpuff Girls in the same sentence again! Oh my! I did it again. I just can't help myself when it comes to using DBZ and Powerpuff Girls in the same sentence.

Still not sure that DBZ and Powerpuff Girls are real anime. Oops, I did it again!

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