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View Poll Results: Who is a better swordsman, Yoda or Mace Windu?
Yoda 29 42.65%
Mace Windu 39 57.35%
Voters: 68. You may not vote on this poll


Thread: Best Swordsman?
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Old 10-31-2005, 04:04 PM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Star Wars Databank
It was said only two opponents ever bested him [Mace] -- Yoda, and Dooku.
I don't see how this isn't enough to convince you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaze629
Lucas does not recognize the EU as Star Wars history and that information comes from the EU Kain.
Uhh... Yes he does. For example when writers write SW novels they have to be Lucas-approved. And the EU in the databank is canon because it is SW facts that just aren't mentioned in the movie.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Qel-Droma
If you were the most powerful force-user ever you could kill Mace; Just Force Crush him. It wouldn't matter ONE SINGLE BIT if Mace was the absolute best at saberfighting, because he would be dead. But still, that doesn't say that Mace was not the best saber fighter. He just wasn't the most skilled in using the force. This is not about who is the most powerful, it is about the best at lightsaber fighting.
Why did you just say (post) this? It has nothing to do with the topic. Nobody was talking about force using.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Qel-Droma
I think Prime said that in the Ultimate Visual Guide that Yoda was the best. Best at what?
Umm, well the topic is best swordsman, so it's pretty obvious he's talking about best swordsman.


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Old 10-31-2005, 05:13 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
...he[Mace] was the one who created form Vaapad, and was the only one who knew it. He also synthesized that form with Juyo.
He didn't create Vaapad, he combined it with Juyo and finished it. Before Mace mastered it, it was considered an incomplete fighting form.
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Old 10-31-2005, 05:59 PM   #123
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Man, DarthMoeller, trying to get you to understand something is the hardest thing I have ever done. The fact is yes, this is not about force using. It is about lightsaber fighting, which is what I have been trying to tell you. If you look at the databank entry, it says:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Star Wars Databank
In his day, Mace was one of the best lightsaber fighters of the Jedi order.
Did you just completely blow past that or what? It says that he was the best, and even though he was bested by Yoda and Dooku, it does not say how he was bested.

Look at it this way; if you were the best swordfighter in the whole world, you could be beaten by someone else- say an archer, if it was the middle ages. It would not matter if you were the best at swordfighting, because you would have an arrow through the chest. Same for Force Power versus Saber Skills. Palpatine could fry Mace ordinarily, and Mace wouldn't be able to use that absorb thing like Yoda; however, he could bring down Palps with his blade.

And here you are asking me why I am not convinced by the fact that he was bested by two opponents? Because that doesn't mean he wasn't the best at saberfighting, it does not say how he was beaten at all. And here is my question:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Star Wars Visual Guide
...Mace was the best living lightsaber fighter...
Why do you just keep ignoring that? Or all the other quotes that are from Lucas that were suggested by Blaze.

And if you ask me, even just combining it and using it with Juyo shows superior master of the Lightsaber.
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Old 10-31-2005, 07:55 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Star Wars Databank
In his day, Mace was one of the best lightsaber fighters of the Jedi order.
ONE OF THE BEST!!! Emphasis on ONE OF THE, not number one, ONE OF THE BEST. Top 3, apparently.
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Old 10-31-2005, 08:13 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain
ONE OF THE BEST!!! Emphasis on ONE OF THE, not number one, ONE OF THE BEST. Top 3, apparently.
Quoted for emphasis.


Ok, I have a question for you. How can you measure who is the best saber fighter without having the 2 fight each other? Because this is the only way I can see that fairly measures who is better, and Yoda won when they did ever fight.


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Old 10-31-2005, 08:20 PM   #126
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Look, Darth Moeller, I keep trying to say this, and you keep blowing me off. Look, if Yoda and Mace fought, Yoda would win. But that doesn't say anything about his skills with a lightsaber. If you would actually read my posts instead of just asking me questions... Look, I am asking you, answer my earlier questions and look at what I am saying about the difference in power and saber skills. In a fight between the two, Yoda could beat Mace because of his tremendous force powers. But what about saber skills? If the two would fight without force skills, who would win? I am asking you to please go back and look at what I am saying, and answer my statements about this, instead of harping on the one single quote on the Star Wars Databank.
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Old 10-31-2005, 08:40 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Qel-Droma
If you would actually read my posts instead of just asking me questions...
Don't pretend like you know what I'm doing. I definitely read your posts, but they have little actual relevance to this discussion. You keep saying that yes, Yoda would win because of his Force power, but when the statement is made that "Mace was bested by 2 people," that phrase is preceded by saying how Mace is one of the best with a lightsaber. Therefore, the statement "...bested by 2 people" is about a lightsaber fight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Qel-Droma
If the two would fight without force skills, who would win?
Non-force users (that are not robots that is) cannot effectively use a lightsaber. So your question is not valid, because you need the Force to fight in a lightsaber fight. Yes, Yoda uses the force more than Mace in his fighting technique, but that doesn't mean that he is not as good as Mace. I think you're looking too far into this. When I asked the original question, I didn't mean all of this extra stuff like without the Force. You need the Force to effectively fight with a lightsaber.


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Old 10-31-2005, 10:40 PM   #128
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Look, the Star Wars RPG by West End Games put it plain and simple:

There was a Force power called Lightsaber Combat. The higher your Force abilities, the easier it was to use the Lightsaber. Thats not saying non-Force users can use Lightsabers - just not as well. Now, what does that mean? Its simple: Lightsaber combat isn't just physical prowess - if it was just that, then the measurements would be unfair(Mace is a healthy human in his physical prime at the peak of agility and strength; Yoda is a 32" green thing). So if its a combination of physical prowess AND Force power, like it is, then Yoda has EVERYONE beat.

So I say this so that it gets the point across

Kain, Moeller, and Yoda FTW
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Old 10-31-2005, 11:38 PM   #129
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Well, seeing as how it doesn't look like we are going to convince anything different, I am going to stop. Not anything personal, just a little bit of futility. I think it is possible to fight with a lightsaber not using the force, I was going on that "best swordsmen" meant natural abilities. But, as I said before, this is just getting repetitive. I guess it all is about how you look at the question and the information.
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Old 11-01-2005, 02:36 AM   #130
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But the Force is a natural part of Lightsaber combat. The weapon itself is far to unwieldy to be used successfully by someone without the Force. Not saying it can't be done, but without proper training in the Force, its a near impossibility to not end up injuring yourself.

And if you're thinking "It only weights a kilogram, how could it possibly be unwieldy?". Therein is the problem. The blade creates no resistance, and it isn't really balanced. So you really need to be Force-Sensitive to keep tabs on your saber and their saber for you to stand a chance in a lightsaber fight. Lightsaber combat also uses to Force as a combat precognition power - the ability to see your opponents moves before they know they're making them. So the more powerful you are in the Force, the farther you can see into your opponent's moves, and the easier you can parry and riposte them.

What does all that mean? The natural ability arguement is null - because the person naturally stronger in the Force has the obvious advantage over the person not quite so strong in the Force.

God I feel like SUCH a dork.
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Old 11-01-2005, 03:10 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain
God I feel like SUCH a dork
That's because you are

I feel this was a good debate and I'm glad there are no hard feelings. Or so I hope...


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Old 11-01-2005, 03:30 PM   #132
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I don't have any. A little bit of fustration... But then again, I usually feel like this when I can't convince somebody to agree with me .
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