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Old 08-05-2005, 10:05 PM   #1
Amidala from Chop Shop
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What might have been

I have come to the conclusion that all of the turmoil over "laming" and "admin abuse" and all of the arguments that happened are the result of
  1. Raven creating in JK2 a Duel gametype that most duelers don't like and don't use
  2. To solve that "problem" the modders in JK2, instead of fixing the Duel gametype that was the problem, instead simply removed the one-duel-at-a-time restriction in the Free For All gametype to produce what duelers wanted (multiple simultaneous duels and duel challenges). Unfortunately, it was in the FFA gametype instead of the Duel gametype.
  3. This led to the mass migration of duelers from Duel servers where they were supposed to be to the FFA servers, causing all of the conflicts with the players who wanted to play traditional FFA\deathmatch, and we all know what happened after that

Raven repeated their mistake with the Duel gametype in JA, and the deterioration happened even faster in JA than in JK2 because the pattern was already established.

So my question to the modders out there is: what would it take to fix the Duel gametype in JK2 and JA to make it similar to modded "FFA Dueling" servers (multiple simultaneous duels and duel challenges)? Could it be done as a server-side mod or would it have to be client-server? Assuming things like incorrect ui strings describing the rules of the gametype didn't matter (since the "Rules: Defeat your enemies to score points!" FFA string is ignored anyway) what would it have taken to fix the problem with the Duel gametype the right way instead of the quick and easy way?

Not only that, how about adding that in the "new" Duel gametype only those engaged in a duel could ignite their lightsabers or use Force (if enabled)? Along with automatically disabling guns and explosives in the "new" Duel gametype, that would completely eliminate "laming" and the need for admin mods and admins.

Imagine if the JK2 modders had fixed the Duel gametype that way instead of messing with the FFA gametype the way they did. I believe there would be many more people still playing JK2 and JA. I just don't know how hard it would have been to do that.

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Old 08-05-2005, 11:08 PM   #2
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Old 08-05-2005, 11:26 PM   #3
ensiform
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amidala from Chop Shop
I have come to the conclusion that all of the turmoil over "laming" and "admin abuse" and all of the arguments that happened are the result of
  1. Raven creating in JK2 a Duel gametype that most duelers don't like and don't use
  2. To solve that "problem" the modders in JK2, instead of fixing the Duel gametype that was the problem, instead simply removed the one-duel-at-a-time restriction in the Free For All gametype to produce what duelers wanted (multiple simultaneous duels and duel challenges). Unfortunately, it was in the FFA gametype instead of the Duel gametype.
  3. This led to the mass migration of duelers from Duel servers where they were supposed to be to the FFA servers, causing all of the conflicts with the players who wanted to play traditional FFA\deathmatch, and we all know what happened after that

Raven repeated their mistake with the Duel gametype in JA, and the deterioration happened even faster in JA than in JK2 because the pattern was already established.

So my question to the modders out there is: what would it take to fix the Duel gametype in JK2 and JA to make it similar to modded "FFA Dueling" servers (multiple simultaneous duels and duel challenges)? Could it be done as a server-side mod or would it have to be client-server? Assuming things like incorrect ui strings describing the rules of the gametype didn't matter (since the "Rules: Defeat your enemies to score points!" FFA string is ignored anyway) what would it have taken to fix the problem with the Duel gametype the right way instead of the quick and easy way?

Not only that, how about adding that in the "new" Duel gametype only those engaged in a duel could ignite their lightsabers or use Force (if enabled)? Along with automatically disabling guns and explosives in the "new" Duel gametype, that would completely eliminate "laming" and the need for admin mods and admins.

Imagine if the JK2 modders had fixed the Duel gametype that way instead of messing with the FFA gametype the way they did. I believe there would be many more people still playing JK2 and JA. I just don't know how hard it would have been to do that.
changing the "Rules:" part would require client-side for sure. although, adding extra gametypes also would.


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Old 08-06-2005, 12:44 AM   #4
Amidala from Chop Shop
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It wouldn't be adding extra gametypes, it would be replacing the code for the Duel gametype with the code for the FFA gametype + the changes to enable multiple simultaneous duels.

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Old 08-06-2005, 01:21 AM   #5
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mm well then that would be possible for someone maybe.


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Old 08-06-2005, 01:31 AM   #6
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But Slider would have to code it in JA+, otherwise nothing will change. Convincing him to add such changes would not be easy...
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Old 08-06-2005, 01:45 AM   #7
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why would the spiteful newbie want to do that? im now hearing that he and #include especially are bashing rs and saying its a bad mod.


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Last edited by ensiform; 08-06-2005 at 02:31 AM.
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Old 08-06-2005, 05:27 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ensiform
why would the spiteful newbie want to do that? im now hearing that he and #include especially are bashing rs and saying its a bad mod.
i never said that ensiform and i don't think this is the mentality of Include to do it...

However the topics of your friends and even studbert on chopshop forum are full of bashing comments towards JA+....

i have always respected you...
But you not...

i hope you will release your error saying that...
It seems like i said that some people at chopShop forum are trying to wildespread bad and wrong rumors against me and JA+....
Moreover it seems that among those people , there are people from the coding team of RS.
I hope your behaviour will change because if not, you are really becoming to give a very bad opinion of yourself and by extension a very bad opinion of your mod to all people.


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Old 08-06-2005, 05:29 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
But Slider would have to code it in JA+, otherwise nothing will change. Convincing him to add such changes would not be easy...

i hope you will release that this is exactly what i already coded in my Alternate Dimension feature...
IT enable to have 2 gametype in one which is FFA....

people first connect to the real ffa dimension and they can switch to the honor-RPG-MultiDuel dimension whenever they want


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Old 08-06-2005, 05:29 AM   #10
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Can the server admin turn it on/off?
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Old 08-06-2005, 06:02 AM   #11
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yes it can be turned off but as Amidala often say, most people let the default configuration in the server.cfg...

now the other people that absolutly know what they are doing begins to see how this alternate dimension is powerfull almost for popular and populated server where all kind of player can have their own fun...

now if you fall on a server that is not allowing alternate dimension simply go in another because you now immedialtly that is not a only honor server...
SO if you are a ffa player, play in another server...

Before thigns where ambiguous, people join a ffa server and somtiles they begin to ffaing while they are on a honor server without knowing it...
Now when you can't switch to the alternate dimension, you directly know the intention of the main server owners who want to create a pure multiduel honor rpg server...
SO leave it..

you can easily know if the server is allowing the alternate dimension without going in the server by using the JA+ server tracker that remotly analyse the server

i will put in the next plugin a built in server list that also says it


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Old 08-06-2005, 06:08 AM   #12
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Now, I haven't played JA MP since SWBF came out, but do people honestly make good use of the feature?

Are people hating it thinking it advocates "laming" or something, and refuse to update? Again, I don't know what's going on since I haven't touched JA MP in quite a while.
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Old 08-06-2005, 06:11 AM   #13
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yes some people don't update

so don't go on old server
there are enough last version server to have fun
forget the other...

i know that a lot of server that were refuseing to update finally updated because all the members were asking to in order to take adventage of the last feature...


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Old 08-06-2005, 06:48 AM   #14
Amidala from Chop Shop
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slider744
i hope you will release that this is exactly what i already coded in my Alternate Dimension feature...
IT enable to have 2 gametype in one which is FFA....

people first connect to the real ffa dimension and they can switch to the honor-RPG-MultiDuel dimension whenever they want
slider, as you know, I understand the intention of the Alternate Dimension.

But if you read the post I started this thread with, I was talking about fixing the fundamental problem: most duelers don't like the basejk2 and basejka Duel gametype.

They don't like waiting to duel, they prefer to have multiple duels taking place. They want to be able to choose who they duel with. And they don't like being attacked ("lamed") while waiting to duel.

Fine, I can see their point of view. The problem is with the solution that the JK2 modders used: instead of fixing the Duel gametype, they removed the maximum-of-one-duel-at-a-time limit in the FFA gametype that Raven implemented for a reason. That moved dueling from the Duel gametype where it belongs to the FFA gametype where it immediately caused the confusion and conflicts that you know so well. Confusion meaning players going to a server classified as "Free For All" and finding only dueling was allowed, and "Free For All" was considered "laming". Conflict meaning players who want to play Free For All going to "FFA" servers and "laming" other players, and "honor" players who follow the "no laming" philosophy going to a "real FFA" server, being attacked as part of the normal game, and then whining and complaining about being "lamed".

Raven didn't change the Duel gametype in JA, most duelers still didn't like it, and the JA modders just repeated the JK2 approach: remove the limit on the number of duels in FFA, instead of fixing the Duel gametype.

Yes, the Alternate Dimension in JA+ 2.3 is an improvement over the previous version, but it still maintained the fundamentally flawed paradigm: turning "Free For All" servers into multiple Duel servers. The alternate dimension is an improvement of a flawed concept. And it still has to be used by the server operator (many disable it) and it still lacks guns, etc. if they are disabled on the server.

Let's go back in time and imagine a different scenario. JK2 comes out with the unpopular basejk2 Duel gametype. Instead of changing the FFA gametype, the modders radically changed the Duel gametype to make it like the current modded "FFA Dueling" servers, with multiple duels and duel challenges, and without changing the FFA gametype at all since there was nothing "wrong" with the FFA gametype that needed "fixing". Imagine too that the modders had made it that in the "new Duel" gametype only players who were in a duel could ignite their sabers or use Force, and that guns were disabled by default. That would have made "laming" impossible since the only person that a player could attack is the one they were dueling.

Imagine how different the world would have been: the duelers would have been happy on their Duel servers, they could have had multiple simultaneous duels, they could challenge others to a duel, and if they weren't dueling they couldn't attack anyone and no one could attack them. There would have been no "laming" and no need for "no laming" rules and the need to enforce them. They could chat or emote or RPG or duel or whatever on their "new Duel" servers, and no one would have cared or bothered them. And most importantly, instead of going to a Free For All server to duel, everyone would have gone to a *gasp* Duel server to duel! How logical and sensible.

Meanwhile, the Free For All servers would have been used for *gasp* Free For All! There would have been no confusion about what to do on a Free For All Server. People on FFA servers would have been happy in their little world, and the duelers would have been happy in their little world. Of course, if a dueler wanted to Free For All, they could have gone to a Free For All server and known what to expect. And if a FFA player wanted to duel, they would have gone to a Duel server knowing that there would be no guns and they couldn't fight unless they were challenged to a duel or someone else challenged them.

Everyone would have been happy. No laming. No admin abuse. No tiresome arguments over and over again in hundreds of threads about "laming" and admin abuse. Things would have been orderly and logical: if you want to duel, go to a "new Duel" server. If you want to deathmatch, go to a Free For All server. Simple.

And if that had been the successful model for JK2, it would have been copied and been just as successful in JA. We could have avoided so many arguments, animosity, and bad feelings.

Instead, the JK2 modders came up with the flawed solution of changing the FFA gametype to fix a problem with a different gametype (Duel), which caused a lot of confusion, conflict, abuse, and contributed to the decline of the game. And then that same flawed approach was used for Jedi Academy, with the same results.


Last edited by Amidala from Chop Shop; 08-06-2005 at 07:03 AM.
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Old 08-06-2005, 08:12 AM   #15
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i really well understood what you frist said in the topics

what i said was not refering to what you said but what TK-8252 said...

other than that, i definely think the alternate dimension concept is really prodiding what you would want...

the duel and power duel gametype is definetly used by low slots server like 8 or 6....
this is more a challenge gametype where specator are studying the technics of the player beeing dueling....

i don't think this is good to make multiduel in those gametype...

Whereas since JK2 and even JK1 frow what i heard from JK1 players, FFA began to be used by the RPG community because we are not forced to follow the rules of capturing a flag, or completing an objective in siege, or defeating other team in team gametype...

that is why i think FFA is definetly the best gametype to alter in order to meet honour-RPG-multiduel and real ffa player community...

of course we could create another gametype like you said that allow only rpg-chat-multiduel at once...

but people prefer to be able to swtich between 2 gametypes whenever they want and without changing the gametype of the server..
the alternate dimension provide this feature ; 2 gametypes at the same time and on the same server and on the same level


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Old 08-06-2005, 11:27 AM   #16
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okay im sry about you slider but still read this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedi Acrobat
Well I was in the newbie ja+ server last night and the guy who made the mod and runs the server was playing. And I started bitching at him about how bad his mod was. Examples, wookie model scaling and yoda, auto balance. There can be a 15 on 15 game going on and its really close and some ppl will get switched. And then it will be a stack like 20 drs vs 7 newbies and it doesnt switch anyone. He tried to back up its ****tyness with the old excuse "Ja+ is acually a ffa mod don't hurt me you ubber 1337 h4x0rs11!11LOl11!"
Anyway I started testing him but spamming. Since he was speachless after I told him all of the faults in his mod. I kept spamming 8===================D. But it didnt work, I only got silenced. And 84gt almosttt got kicked. Oh well, oh yea and I told him he sould switch to Red Slushie because its a far superior mod. And he started explaining how bad of a mod it is. So if ensi or stu see him post of in game you know you can bitch at him. Becuase hes talking smack about your mod.
later on he was asked if it was you or include and he said specifically it was include.


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Old 08-06-2005, 11:43 AM   #17
Amidala from Chop Shop
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Again, I think the Alternate Dimension is a great idea, but it still isn't as good as correctly fixing the problem. Duel was\is the gametype that has the problem, not FFA. Rather than changing a gametype that doesn't have a problem (FFA), the gametype that is disliked by most of the players it was designed for (Duel) is the one that should have been changed.

It's like duelers were people living in a house with a leaky roof, and next door to them their neighbors (FFA) were in a house with a good roof. Instead of fixing the dueler's roof, the modders gave the duelers a key to the FFA house, and the duelers moved into the FFA house because that was the only option given to them. That solved the problem for the duelers, but it wasn't such a great solution for the people living in the FFA house. My analogy isn't perfect, but I hope you understand my point.

Sure, there are some smaller servers using the Duel gametype as designed, but while lightsaber dueling is popular in JK2 and JA, less than 15% of servers are Duel servers, and most of those are empty most of the time. Most duelers prefer multiple duels and challenges. The Duel gametype should have been improved to give them what they want, rather than changing a different gametype (FFA) with all of the conflicts and problems that caused.

The problems with making FFA servers into Duel servers, even with the alternate dimension, are:
  • They are still listed in the server browser under Free For All, which doesn't really accurately describe what kind of server it is. A player who has played "Free For All" in Quake III, UT2004, Halo, Republic Commando, Far Cry, RTCW:ET, Call of Duty, Counter-Strike, SOF2, etc. etc. etc. is going to have certain expectations if they go to a JK2 or JA "FFA" server. Turning those servers into something else still creates the possibility of confusion, conflicts, and unpleasant suprises.
  • Even if they have JA+ 2.3, many servers have disabled the alternate dimension or made the "honor" dimension the entering dimension.
  • Even if a server is using JA+ 2.3, is using the alternate dimension, and has it as the entering dimension, if the server has guns and Force powers disabled, the alternate dimension also has guns and Force powers disabled. It is basically the same as the Primary Dimension, minus the grapple and some of the admin commands. That isn't what a player coming from the other games I listed above expects or wants.

Again, the alternate dimension is a great idea, and if it had come out in JK2 or even JA+ 1.1 instead of JA+ 2.3 things would have been better than they are now. But even better would have been if the JK2 modders had changed the Duel gametype into what most duelers and RPGers wanted, rather than changing the FFA gametype with all of the bad things that followed ("laming", admin abuse, countless arguments about "rights" and the "true nature of FFA", players being driven from the game).

And this is not a criticism of slider or even the JK2 modders (MarS, cHoSeN oNe, et al) who altered the FFA gametype. I don't think the JK2 modders could have predicted in their worst nightmares all of the bad things that happened when they changed the FFA gametype to give duelers what they wanted, instead of fixing the duel gametype.

My question is basically a theoretical and technical one, as I am not a coder: what would it have taken and how hard would it have been to transform the Duel gametype into what most duelers want, i.e. multiple duels, duel challenges, and perhaps auto-no laming?


Last edited by Amidala from Chop Shop; 08-06-2005 at 12:00 PM.
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Old 08-06-2005, 02:57 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ensiform

later on he was asked if it was you or include and he said specifically it was include.
ensiform, with all the wrong things i read in chopshop forum about me, i doubt that this thing about include is true...

Include is a very fair and mature personn and also he is a moderator here in this forum


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Old 08-06-2005, 03:01 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amidala from Chop Shop
Even if a server is using JA+ 2.3, is using the alternate dimension, and has it as the entering dimension, if the server has guns and Force powers disabled, the alternate dimension also has guns and Force powers disabled. It is basically the same as the Primary Dimension, minus the grapple and some of the admin commands. That isn't what a player coming from the other games I listed above expects or wants.
hehe
do you read in my head amidala?
you just highlight one of my new improvement for the next version of JA+ whereas i spoke about that to only 1 or 2 person....

hehe happy to see that you see what i am doing


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Old 08-06-2005, 04:34 PM   #20
Amidala from Chop Shop
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That's great slider, that would make the Alternate Dimension even better. If possible, it would be good if the Alternate Dimension had a separate setting for forceregentime as well as weapondisable and forcepowerdisable. And it would be great if the default values for the Alternate Dimension were

jp_altdim_weapondisable "0"
jp_altdim_forcepowerdisable "0"
jp_altdim_forceregentime "200" (or least no less than 100).

In fact, it would be great if you could restrict the values of jp_altdim_forceregentime or whatever you end up calling it to values between 20 and 200. A 10:1 range of adjustment should more than enough for anyone. The unfortunately common setting of g_forceregentime 0 has just led to a lot of gripkick spamming and saber special spamming. Many people complain that they are really annoyed by the spamming but they don't seem to realize it's the result of the extreme server setting (g_forceregentime 0, the most extreme setting possible).

But unfortunately, I predict many people will either disable the improved Alternate Dimension or disable the Force powers and guns anyway, and set forceregentime to 0 in the Alternate Dimension. Totally new players or new players from other games will contine to go to JK2 and JA "Free For All" servers expecting to find one thing, but finding something else entirely.

Also, as I suggested in my earlier post, it would be great if in the Primary Dimension only players engaged in a duel could ignite their lightsabers or use Force (if Force isn't disabled). If that was possible, and if there were no guns, then "laming" would be impossible. There would be no need to amsleep people and "explain the rules" to them. No one who wasn't in a duel could attack anyone else. They could chat or emote or "RP" or whatever without fear of being "lamed". They wouldn't have to use God chat or beg to be amprotected. They could move around freely and there would be little or no need for "admins" policing the server.


Last edited by Amidala from Chop Shop; 08-06-2005 at 05:50 PM.
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Old 08-06-2005, 04:36 PM   #21
ensiform
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slider744
ensiform, with all the wrong things i read in chopshop forum about me, i doubt that this thing about include is true...

Include is a very fair and mature personn and also he is a moderator here in this forum
who said anything about chop shop forums? also ive known him for quite some time i dont think he would just up and lie to me.


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Old 08-06-2005, 06:00 PM   #22
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ok ebsiform you force me to make a research through the chopshop forum with all the bashing comments toward me and JA+ made by your friends

Quote:
Originally Posted by stubert a moder/coder that help you in your mod ensiform if i am well informed
all ja+ consits of is some script tweaking of the existing game without using anything new
it's not modding, it's script tweaking
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyKell who also like to say wrong thing about me prenting i try to smap his mailbox ==> quit stupid
Wow. I guess Slider is not liked much around here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vico speaking of bashing topics he and his friends posted in my JA+ forum.
They were harassing my forum to spam bashing comments
This forum is littered with links to topics that dont exist on his boards because they were deleted. You cannot say that he has never done it. Anything bashing him or JA+ is usually gone after a day or so.
so yes he just admited, that they were spaming bashing comments...
and they are your friend i beleive that support you?
woa what a nice team that almost pretend to be THE COMPETITIVE PART OF THE COMMUNITY!!!!! what a good image you are showing!!!!!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by stubert speaking about alternate dimension
someone tell me
1) how is this original
if it is not a bashing comment tell me what it is..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight
NEVER NOT THE EVIL JA+ MOD, DIE JA+, DIE!

Quote:
Originally Posted by amidala woa even amidal liked to harass me with bashing comments that are wrong
So slider's actual contribution to the new moves: amkiss.
amidala you have read the readme, the move i used from OJP are not a lot compaired to what i made

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight speaking about JA+
No wonder this mod is for the 12 year olds
hum what a clever comment
Anyting better to say knight?

Quote:
Originally Posted by REDFIVE adding a comment when all the shopchop member wanted me to chut down my CTF server
I think slider is right... we are all just geolus of his ctf server
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaX
nice
I think we should find a way to create a script to crash all the JA+ servers
Yeah good behaviour from the competive community!!!!
You are definetly some nice people that all player would have as a friend !!!!!


i will not post all the bashing and wrong statements and comments a lot of those chopshop members spamed in all my mod suggestions at pcgamemods, JK3files....

Ensiform, your mod seems to be supported by chopshop members...
Look and count the number of bashing comments i posted in your mod submitions just to promote another mod like mine???
you will found 0 comment

count the number of bashing comments toward your mod i posted in my own JA+ forum!!!
you will also find 0 comments

It seems that chopShop members are trying to start a mod war...

Ensiform do you want to find against me?
Me i don't want and i never showed through my comments that i were not respectuous toward you...

But perhaps you didn't chose correctly your friends?
I can assure that they will only lead your mod to mod war between you and me....

Shochop forum contains now too many immature members like stubert, vico, knight ...Etc... that like to bash me in all forums whenever they can and spam bashing comments toward me in my forum, my mod submition....

pathetic behaviour for player that prentend to be the elite and the competitive community


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Old 08-06-2005, 06:18 PM   #23
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yes well whatever thats not where i got my quote from but sure.

and so you know, they do it because they are fed up with your mod sometimes ie: the 12 year old admins who kick or abuse you for 'laming'.

now, enough is enough.

RS is not only supported by CS its supported by Refresh More.

who is editing that line out?


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Last edited by ensiform; 08-06-2005 at 06:43 PM.
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Old 08-06-2005, 06:23 PM   #24
Amidala from Chop Shop
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Aww slider, and we were getting along so well here

Quote:
Originally Posted by amidala woa even amidal liked to harass me with bashing comments that are wrong
So slider's actual contribution to the new moves: amkiss.

amidala you have read the readme, the move i used from OJP are not a lot compaired to what i made
I made that post on February 13, 2005, almost six months ago, when JA+ 2.3 beta was first announced and when who did what with the new moves wasn't well-documented. And I notice that, probably in part because of my comments, when 2.3 final came out who coded the new moves and animations was well-documented. So if you are still upset about one comment I made six months ago based on the information I had at the time, then I apologize.

I don't want this to turn into an argument or a bash slider or JA+ thread. I thought we were doing pretty well up to this point.

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Old 08-06-2005, 06:32 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amidala from Chop Shop
So if you are still upset about one comment I made six months ago based on the information I had at the time, then I apologize.
excuse accepted

as i said i didn't post all your bashing comments, but admit you spent for several month a lot of bashing comments toward JA+ in a lot of forums just to proove i am the evil....

i am happy that you are changing your mind about me...
But realize the energy you could have spend to provide nice things to the community instead of tracking all my mod submitions to bash me and saying also wrong statements sometimes about me....

i don't say you didn't provide nice things to the community....
i am just saying, that not spend time and energy to harass me would have saved you a good amount of time....

Moreover you appear to be the leader of the players that pretend to be the competitive comminity...
And you are not showing the good exemple....

the player now prentending to be the elite are full of bad and immature people....

And me also i don't want this topics to be turned into a war topics...

so i stop


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Old 08-06-2005, 06:55 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slider744
Moreover you appear to be the leader of the players that pretend to be the competitive comminity...
LOL, no, the competitive community disdains me almost as much as they disdain you (the ones that are aware of you, that is. They live in their own little world and rarely go outside of passworded pug servers).

My forum is hardly the center of the competitve CTF world. That would be http://www.firetrill.com/forums/ They have lost some threads from forum crashes, but there are plenty of "Chop Sh*t sucks" threads there too. It's just the culture of the community you became part of when you started hosting a CTF server. They are some of the very best players playing the game, and they know it.


Last edited by Amidala from Chop Shop; 08-06-2005 at 09:10 PM.
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Old 08-06-2005, 10:28 PM   #27
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i am the center of the competitive community thanks
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Old 08-09-2005, 12:36 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slider744
so yes he just admited, that they were spaming bashing comments...
and they are your friend i beleive that support you?
woa what a nice team that almost pretend to be THE COMPETITIVE PART OF THE COMMUNITY!!!!! what a good image you are showing!!!!!!
And your honor kiddie supporters are an upstanding batch of responsible admins and players? Intelligent and thoughtful debaters perhaps?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slider744
i will not post all the bashing and wrong statements and comments
You could use a year and a day and you would still not be able to gather the arguements and opinions levied against your mod. If you release modifications to the public, you do so knowing that it will be subject to criticism. As you have learned, not everyone will love it. Just deal with it already.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slider744
But perhaps you didn't chose correctly your friends?
Did you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slider744
I can assure that they will only lead your mod to mod war between you and me....
How arrogant. A 'war' you know you won a long time ago. Way to go out on a limb there, big guy. Ensiform has given no indication of an open challenge.
It deeply disturbs you to have Ensiform's and Stu's Red Slushie mod feature twice the ingenuity of yours with 1/25th of the player/ server following. They mod for that old thorn in your side and in your own words: the competitve community. Also known as the 'real Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy player'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slider744
Shochop forum contains now too many immature members like stubert, vico, knight ...Etc... that like to bash me in all forums whenever they can and spam bashing comments toward me in my forum, my mod submition....

pathetic behaviour for player that prentend to be the elite and the competitive community
So any anti JA+ sentiment is a sign of immaturity? Somehow, from my end of the fence, I fail to see that. And what are you comparing it too? Your forums? Somewhere, in between the requests for new abuse options and the pleas to return the old ones, there is nazi thread deletion of any bad press towards yourself, your CTF server and JA+. If the two boards were compared side by side, chopshopservers forums would read like a senior citizen bulletin board.

The truth of the matter is, as you try to falsely label the competitve community, you just dislike them because they have been, in general, as the only real opposition to JA+ (for extremely valid reasons). You have overused the term 'pathetic'. JKA is the only FIRST PERSON SHOOTER whose server base has 90.7%(actual figure @ the time of this post) of its servers with GUNS DISABLED. I find that pathetic. JKA, the unique and fun Star Wars inspired shooter has been reduced to some poor mans MMORPG and is embarassingly regarded in other frag circles as a complete joke. I find that patheric, too. Your version and my version dont add up.

We are elite because in a base setting gun environment, encompassing every force power and weapon in an even playing field, the 'worst' of the competitve players would absolutely destroy the best of the JA+ honor saberist with disgusting ease. Call it arrogance. Call it whatever you want but its nothing other than the truth. Stripped of JA+ settings and features the honor player is nothing more than a low grade bot to a CTF trained, strafing gunner.

Somehow, you think you deserve a pat on the back for that. Its not coming from all sectors, which you dont like. After JA+ became the most widely used (by a longshot) admin mod for FFA servers the only opposition you faced, the only gametype you didnt 'own' was CTF. At the time Amidala's Chop Shop CTF was the most popular server and she was also your most vocal advesary. Presto! JA+ Official Beta Test server is converted to CTF although it was one sidedly developed for the FFA honor saberist. You took full advantage of your mods popularity and knew your brainwashed cronies would follow.

Still, even with Chop Shop nothing more than a distant memory, you still face negative criticism from legit gunners. Why you even trouble yourself with us few wayward souls is beyond me. I think your mod sucks and I think honor players suck. I wouldnt give a squirt of piss for either one. Thats my opinion. Grow up, deal with it and save your biased insults.
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Old 08-09-2005, 01:55 AM   #29
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well said DruggedSith. i should also point out, we are giving full credit to all authors of 3rd party stuff in the upcoming release. and you guys already knew the only stuff we used in previous was jk2++ and is given credit already.


now this is finally over.


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Old 08-09-2005, 05:36 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ensiform
why would the spiteful newbie want to do that? im now hearing that he and #include especially are bashing rs and saying its a bad mod.

Your accusation has been noted. Please stop trying to start rumors and trouble in our forums. I have not once bashed the RS mod. Heck, I don't bash any mods. I'm just working on ja+ because it's clearly "the" mod in JKA. Yes, mistakes were originally made, but I'd like to help get JA+ back on the right track.


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Old 08-09-2005, 05:46 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ensiform
okay im sry about you slider but still read this:

Originally Posted by Jedi Acrobat
Well I was in the newbie ja+ server last night and the guy who made the mod and runs the server was playing. And I started bitching at him about how bad his mod was. Examples, wookie model scaling and yoda, auto balance. There can be a 15 on 15 game going on and its really close and some ppl will get switched. And then it will be a stack like 20 drs vs 7 newbies and it doesnt switch anyone. He tried to back up its ****tyness with the old excuse "Ja+ is acually a ffa mod don't hurt me you ubber 1337 h4x0rs11!11LOl11!"
Anyway I started testing him but spamming. Since he was speachless after I told him all of the faults in his mod. I kept spamming 8===================D. But it didnt work, I only got silenced. And 84gt almosttt got kicked. Oh well, oh yea and I told him he sould switch to Red Slushie because its a far superior mod. And he started explaining how bad of a mod it is. So if ensi or stu see him post of in game you know you can bitch at him. Becuase hes talking smack about your mod.

later on he was asked if it was you or include and he said specifically it was include.

Just to clear this up, JA+ was not designed for CTF. The CTF server is a TEST server to see the flaws for CTF. Over time, JA+ will correct the problems in the mod. Currently, auto-balance isn't that great, so we are making changes. Currently, we have disabled auto-balance for midgames, but once a map ends, the next map start will auto-balance everyone on their starting teams. This is to prevent the same group of people of being on the same team and just slaughtering an inexperienced team map after map after map. I've said it so many times, I'm just tired of explaining it to everyone who claims that the JA+ CTF server sucks. Speechless? No, it's just not worth my time explaining all of that while I'm trying to cap a flag.

The person then starts to spam over and over and over. It's ticking people off...and it's just flat out spam. I warn that person, and they continue. I then silence them. The game then plays through just like normal. That is how it started, and that is how it ended. It would be difficult for you to "suggest" red slushie if you were silenced from all the spam.



Get your facts straight, next time.


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Old 08-09-2005, 07:03 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ensiform
well said DruggedSith.
Ensiform, i am always respectfull with you and your mod..
I never spam bashing, uncontructuctive comments in your forums, and your mod submitions and any other forums...
But your modding team members do it.

DruggedSith you said that releasing to the public automatically open to critisicmm...
OF course, but all you and the Red Slushie MOd team, and the all the Choshop members that suport Red Slushie is not critiscim but unconstructiven bashing spamming comments in every forum i go...


i hope you and your modding team members like stubert will now show a better behaviour toward me.....
Because if not, i can certify to you that your moddin team behaviour look like for all the other people as jealous coder that just want to bash JA+ in order to better highlight their mod...

As i said i don't search to enter a mod war with you the modding team of red slushie mod and you will never find a commentss that show i am hostile toward you....
But as your behaviour is showing the opposite of mine, i am just pointing you your error....
And i Hope you will learn to code without behaving as a jerk toward other coder like me.


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Old 08-09-2005, 08:58 AM   #33
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I can be hostile in my deliberations but dont mistake me. I have nothing against you on a personal level. I do however, have issues with your mod and the honor community. Most notably the features and settings of the JA+ mod and the multitude of rule based servers that run it. Together, they have brought JKA to within a hairs width of unplayability.

With the games target audience all but eliminated there is no future for JKA or a another title bearing the once esteemed JK brand. This has not been lost on the competitive player and they will not thank you or the honor player for bringing about the early demise of one of the PC's most fun FPS franchises.
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Old 08-09-2005, 09:23 AM   #34
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JKA is already a dying game. You can't blame others for trying to keep it alive...even if it is "less quality" in your eyes than it used to be. A lesser game > a dead game. Do you really think JKA would still be famous and active...and will continue to do so? They don't even sell it at stores anymore unless it's the half-price books type stores.

Many people have left JKA...including those who "religiously" played it. It's a great game...but there are far too many other things getting many people's attention.

Instead of having the same ole FFA day in and day out until your eyes rot out of your skull, some people developed mods to try to continue to add new content and give it a new "taste and feel". Yes, some mods made mistakes, but the fact is, it still brought something new to the table...and it keeps the game more interesting than just a mindless fragfest.

At least with the new mods, you know you will see stuff added that was never in the game before. ForceMod has some interesting "class" type gameplay. It totally goes against the original game design, but makes it interesting. Movie Battles is sort of a poor man's battlefront....still decent. JA+ tries to give a fresh look to the original gameplay design, while adding bug fixes, new content, hack prevention, exploit prevention, and server stability.

With mods, the "team" who designs it has less to get through to make something happen. Naturally, a mod team may make some poor decisions. It takes a long time as it is for a fully funded gaming company to balance a game...and that's with a ton of team members.

Yes, JA+ made some bad decisions. That is why I joined the JA+ team. It clearly is "JKA" now...and I'd at least like to be there to try to at least help steer it in the right direction. JA+ has already gone through some changes that never hit public release that would have been terrible. Why? Someone stopped just saying "I wish it wasn't that way" and did something about it. JA+ still has a ways to go to truly be "perfect"...but at least JA+ is starting to get on the right track. Slider really can make or break the game in his mod. This is why I joined him. I do a lot of stuff, but I also offer a lot of suggestions...and also give him advice on his "ideas". He's a great coder, but someone needs to be there with experience to let him know exactly what his new code will do to the community as a whole.

Think of it this way, remove all these mods. Join only basejka servers. Imagine having to run off to find health and shields just so a duel can be fair (basejka doesnt reset health at start of a duel). On top of that, imagine having to wait in line just to duel someone. Imagine all the people getting in the way since they wouldn't vanish when you initiate a duel. Imagine having to log into rcon just to get rid of someone that's using the basejka exploit that allows you to crash a server.

The mods arn't really that bad of a thing. They've done a lot of good to the game. Not ALL good...but good...regardless. JKA was already dying. That's just natural. The mod community was an attempt to keep it alive once it was on life support.


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Last edited by RpTheHotrod; 08-09-2005 at 09:38 AM.
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Old 08-09-2005, 05:28 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slider744
Ensiform, i am always respectfull with you and your mod..
I never spam bashing, uncontructuctive comments in your forums, and your mod submitions and any other forums...
But your modding team members do it.

DruggedSith you said that releasing to the public automatically open to critisicmm...
OF course, but all you and the Red Slushie MOd team, and the all the Choshop members that suport Red Slushie is not critiscim but unconstructiven bashing spamming comments in every forum i go...


i hope you and your modding team members like stubert will now show a better behaviour toward me.....
Because if not, i can certify to you that your moddin team behaviour look like for all the other people as jealous coder that just want to bash JA+ in order to better highlight their mod...

As i said i don't search to enter a mod war with you the modding team of red slushie mod and you will never find a commentss that show i am hostile toward you....
But as your behaviour is showing the opposite of mine, i am just pointing you your error....
And i Hope you will learn to code without behaving as a jerk toward other coder like me.
im not the jerk here i only pointed out such things from others, and btw the red slushie team is me and stubert only.

whatever was said i dont mean anything to you as a person either.

somebody please close this.


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Old 08-09-2005, 06:49 PM   #36
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okay, can we please delete the garbage above and get back onto the topic of what amidala was saying. dave has a good point where its different than ja+'s 'alt dim'

- Make Duel Gametype like FFA
- Make it so you can only attack in a duel
- As with that then it would only allow teh honor players to use chat, and challenge etc.
- Allow more than 1 duel at a time.


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Old 08-10-2005, 02:22 AM   #37
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by the request of include:

i posted this over at refresh in the thread where nub was talking about the bashing of rs:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ensiform
nub, include has told me that he did no such thing and he silenced u only cause of ur 8============D spamming.
ive gotten to know include more and he isnt a bad guy


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Old 08-10-2005, 09:17 AM   #38
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well this is not really so different from the JA+ alt dim (not the one in 2.3 but the future one i am doing) execpt ja+ atl dim is more complete as you can play 2 gametype in 1 without needing to go on another server or vote a gametype change


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Old 08-10-2005, 11:53 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slider744
well this is not really so different from the JA+ alt dim (not the one in 2.3 but the future one i am doing) execpt ja+ atl dim is more complete as you can play 2 gametype in 1 without needing to go on another server or vote a gametype change
1. Only if the server operator is using 2.3 and has enabled the Alternate Dimension. Many have disabled it.

2. It still has the problem of listing servers that aren't really "Free For All" under "FFA" in server browsers, causing confusion to new players and players who have played other FPS\action games.

If a server is being used primarily for dueling, it should be listed in the server browser as a "Duel" server, even if it is different from a basejka Duel server. I mean, if a server is being used primarily for dueling, it shouldn't be in the FFA category any more than it should be in the CTF or Siege category.

If a new player goes to a JA+ Duel server, they find players dueling.

If a new player goes to a JA+ Siege server, they find players playing Siege.

If a new player goes to a JA+ Team Free For All server, they find players playing TFFA.

If a new player goes to a JA+ Capture the Flag server, they find players playing Capture the Flag.

If a new player goes to a JA+ Free For All server, they find players.....dueling????? It doesn't make sense.

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Old 08-10-2005, 11:56 AM   #40
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I think the point is that most people will not want to play both, and will not switch between dimensions except honor players entering the alt dim once upon logon. They both seem like good modes, but they are radically different modes, attracting radically different players. Would you lump FFA and siege together like this? No, because they are different gametypes.
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