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Old 09-23-2005, 05:33 PM   #41
RobQel-Droma
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Good point Vladimir-Vlada. I still think that that would be cool to be a new character (and not have to go through amnesia either if its there), but I do think that Revan and the Exile should be party members, although I would like it also if I was Revan. And yes, there are a lot of great ideas for why Revan or Exile is at level one. I think it was BOB LION54 who suggested that there would be kind of a force vaccuum in the Unknown Regions which would interfere with your connection to the force. There is a lot others, but I am not going to quote all of them.
Anyways, I agree mostly with you. I don't understand why people have all these problems with Revan or the Exile even just appearing again.

Last edited by RobQel-Droma; 09-23-2005 at 11:12 PM.
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Old 09-23-2005, 05:59 PM   #42
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And I don't really see what's the big deal with you suddenly having to start at level one again. To tell the truth, I could care LESS. I really dont give a sh*t if we have to start from negative 50 or something. Gimme a break.
My point exatcly. What's the fuss about either of them being level 1? That can even be a vital point of the story (in my version at least).

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I don't understand why people have all these problems with Revan or the Exile even just appearing again.
Well, it's mostly those who like old style RPG's.

Sorry people, your versions of new characters without the old ones, new story of the same theme may work with knights, princesses, kings, swords, axes, bows, wizards, dragons, demons and dark magic lords, but it doesn't with Star Wars.
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Old 09-23-2005, 08:57 PM   #43
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Well I havent read many of the posts, I'm short on time here so I don't know if any of this has come up before, but hers what I think:

1.) NEW PARTY MEMBERS!!!!!
2.) new character!!!!
3.) New Jedi Masters (maybe your exile as one?)
4.) I doubt they are going to do this: but Online Play!!!

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Old 09-23-2005, 09:24 PM   #44
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Anyways, what I was going to add to my earlier post before I had to get off for a while, was that I still am not quite sure how they're are going to work in being Revan if you've been exploring the unknown regions for 5+ years and having seen lots of stuff and maybe found what he was trying to find. Of course they could have him start right after Exile defeated Traya at Malachor, and so the time period would not be so long and therefore they wouldn't have to explain so much. I have gotten kind of tired of amnesia, so I just hope they will come up with something different. Of course, when I first found this site I wanted only to play as Revan, but then I decided it would be cool if we started as a new character because Revan was too powerful and all the other stuff people have suggested why we couldn't play as Revan, but after hearing some ideas to explain for this stuff I am unfortunately starting to waffle again.
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Old 09-23-2005, 09:35 PM   #45
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Instead of mindless bashing on the opposing argument, perhaps somebody could come up with something better then "the story will suck with a new PC".
What I don't understand is that strict very conservative mindset. If it's new, it's bad.
We don't need to play as the old characters. We can have a very interesting story with a whole new character. How many of you, complained about there being a new PC in TSL? How many whined about that? So many. What happens now? "We want the Exile back."

I already explained how you can make a new PC totally interesting, how the gameplay with Revan or the Exile again would simply be bad.

Devon once argued that we should litteraly have to choose our light or dark allegiance in the beginning. To that, the answer was in no way we should destroy one of the core gameplay mechanics and perhaps the most popular one, which is the ability to choose your alignment based on your actions.
You cannot have a neutral Revan at the beginning of K3 as you cannot have a neutral Exile either.
It makes no sense, worse then the whole starting at level 1. He went dark, went back to the light and then becomes neutral again? What the hell?
Another story of amnesia? Give me a break, we've been there, accusing us of being conservative, those who even consider that idea are even more conservative, trying to keep an old and already used formula.

Force vacuum? That sounds way too farfetched or something coming from some bad EU author who tried too hard to come up with a "cool" element.

Up to now, there has been no intelligent, well formulated argument on why the story would suck if we played with a new PC. All the partisans of that idea can come up with is:"But it wouldn't finish the storyline!"
Why would it not? What if you play Revan's son looking for his father or mother? Has anyone of you even considered any possibilities?
Or is the argument down to:"I like Revan/Exile. I want to play as Revan/Exile."

I won't point fingers at anyone, but a lot of "ideas" might sound "nice" on paper but put into a more physical form, it might not work at all. Hell, some of the ideas some people have would simply destroy the game, I'll say it clearly, that's what I think some of you want. For a "cool" factor, you're ready to sacrifice the gameplay.

I'll conclude with this matter. We all want a good story but this is a video game. If the gameplay is horrible, the game is horrible, the story then becomes just another thing on the side people forgot, however good it is, simply because playing the game became like working in an african diamond mine.

Second matter, FPS gameplay. This is also something about the "cool" factor that doesn't work in reality. It might look or sound nice on paper, but it's not going to work in an RPG. End of the line.

Finally, I'll have to say something about veterans. Veterans are not gods, they're not smarter or wiser then anyone. They only have more experience then most newbies about posting here at LFN.
Thus most of them also are quite knowledgeable about certain genres of video game. We have played them forever, we still play them, we know how it works inside and out.
But you don't have to be a veteran to be knowledgeable about anything. You don't need 2000+ posts to be able to handle an intelligent conversation.
If a newbie, acts mature, discuss with good arguments, he will be respected as much as any veteran.
Look at Hai Wan. He doesn't have that many posts yet I have a lot of respect for him.
Commas also. He was the only defensor of the "Exile for K3" philosophy that came up with good solid arguments.
If you can come up with good solid arguments, ways to truly convince the most "conservative" veteran, then your voice will be heard.
If the only thing you can come up with is:"But that would be so cool!" then no, nobody will listen to you.

LIYAD out.


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Old 09-23-2005, 10:05 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
It makes no sense, worse Force vacuum? That sounds way too farfetched or something coming from some bad EU author who tried too hard to come up with a "cool" element.
hehehe......that it does. Like I said, it was just a possible way to see Revan/Exile in K3.


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Old 09-23-2005, 10:11 PM   #47
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Devon once argued that we should litteraly have to choose our light or dark allegiance in the beginning. To that, the answer was in no way we should destroy one of the core gameplay mechanics and perhaps the most popular one, which is the ability to choose your alignment based on your actions.
You cannot have a neutral Revan at the beginning of K3 as you cannot have a neutral Exile either.
It makes no sense, worse then the whole starting at level 1. He went dark, went back to the light and then becomes neutral again? What the hell?

There has been a lot of ideas on how they would be chosen either too be light or dark. What about in KOTOR II? Depending on what you said about him/her, Revan would be set too dark or light side. Have you ever thought about having a prologue playing as a different character and talking to somebody about Revan, therefore setting Revan to either light or dark?

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Second matter, FPS gameplay. This is also something about the "cool" factor that doesn't work in reality. It might look or sound nice on paper, but it's not going to work in an RPG. End of the line.
Now that I do agree with. KOTOR started out as an RPG, it should stay that way, especially with something that big.

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Force vacuum? That sounds way too farfetched or something coming from some bad EU author who tried too hard to come up with a "cool" element.
Whats wrong with that? As whoever pointed it out, the force is stronger in some areas than others, and so the force is weaker in areas than others. It just means your connection to the force is a lot weaker. What about those cages that prevented force users from using the force that palpatine and others used to imprison jedi? Besides, thats not the only idea.

All that said, I am not saying that it would be bad to have an new pc, in fact that is my original story idea for KOTOR III. It is just that I am still not sure now what the story will be, especially since there is a lot of ways it could work either as Revan/New PC.
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Old 09-23-2005, 10:19 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
There has been a lot of ideas on how they would be chosen either too be light or dark. What about in KOTOR II? Depending on what you said about him/her, Revan would be set too dark or light side. Have you ever thought about having a prologue playing as a different character and talking to somebody about Revan, therefore setting Revan to either light or dark?
It is entirely different. When you play an RPG such as KotoR, you have the chance to choose your alignment by the actions you do. If it's choosing before or at the end (like in K1 which is something I always frowned upon), it simply removes one of the core mechanics of the game.
In K2, you didn't play with Revan, that's why it simply didn't matter.




Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
Whats wrong with that? As whoever pointed it out, the force is stronger in some areas than others, and so the force is weaker in areas than others. It just means your connection to the force is a lot weaker. What about those cages that prevented force users from using the force that palpatine and others used to imprison jedi? Besides, thats not the only idea.
To me, it simply sounds stupid. It would not make sense to go fight these big bad strong in the Force Sith Lords when the area around is "force weak".


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Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
All that said, I am not saying that it would be bad to have an new pc, in fact that is my original story idea for KOTOR III. It is just that I am still not sure now what the story will be, especially since there is a lot of ways it could work either as Revan/New PC.
I don't know what the story could be either. I'm just saying pro-Revan people haven't come up with any solid argument other then "it could suck". Hell, it's not even like that, it's:"It will suck".


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Old 09-23-2005, 10:44 PM   #49
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You have a lot of good points there LIYAD.

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To me, it simply sounds stupid. It would not make sense to go fight these big bad strong in the Force Sith Lords when the area around is "force weak".
True, but there are areas where the dark side of the force is so strong that light side users can not regain or even in extreme cases use the force. Of course, I am not sure how this would work for dark siders unless you went up against some kind of Jedi and Sith enemies like the "true sith". But that might have to create an actual "grey" side of the force, which might be a bit corny. So, this is probably in favor of making a new PC.

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It is entirely different. When you play an RPG such as KotoR, you have the chance to choose your alignment by the actions you do. If it's choosing before or at the end (like in K1 which is something I always frowned upon), it simply removes one of the core mechanics of the game.
In K2, you didn't play with Revan, that's why it simply didn't matter.
But you don't have to make him a light/dark side mastery character, you could just imply which side he was just oriented toward, therefore making he slightly light, giving him full choice which side he wants to go to. Or, you could start out as Revan in a prologue making big choices therefore automatically sending to which side he was heading toward. Besides, just because he ended KotOR as either dark or light side doesn't mean he stayed that way. If he was light side he could have become a bit darker after being in the unknown regions.

However, I might be a bit hard to try and wrap up three characters in one game. I mean, unless we were playing a guy with "no name and no past" who just got created out of the blue. Revan and the Exile still have to be wrapped up, so I don't think that it would be good if we were playing somebody who would have to have a good story and be all completed and everything done with him and two others at the end.
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Old 09-23-2005, 10:51 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
But you don't have to make him a light/dark side mastery character, you could just imply which side he was just oriented toward, therefore making he slightly light, giving him full choice which side he wants to go to. Or, you could start out as Revan in a prologue making big choices therefore automatically sending to which side he was heading toward. Besides, just because he ended KotOR as either dark or light side doesn't mean he stayed that way. If he was light side he could have become a bit darker after being in the unknown regions.
Of course not, but you've played a previous game which made Revan either a mighty Sith Lord or a great Light Side Jedi. Why would he change alignment again? It simply limits the logical things you can do. He becomes the Dark Lord and then decides to become light again? Just like that? Doesn't make much sense. Of course, you could say that it's already something you can do in the game, but from a story perspective it makes little sense.
Besides, not many toyed with that.

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Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
However, I might be a bit hard to try and wrap up three characters in one game. I mean, unless we were playing a guy with "no name and no past" who just got created out of the blue. Revan and the Exile still have to be wrapped up, so I don't think that it would be good if we were playing somebody who would have to have a good story and be all completed and everything done with him and two others at the end.
The game could be longer and the new PC could be less grand character like Revan or the Exile. Besides, the only true way to wrap things up is to kill them all off. Then there's no way for a sequel.
So in a way, the wrapping things up is only relative. Their stories will end in some way or another, but it might never be wrapped up enough for some people.


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Old 09-23-2005, 11:12 PM   #51
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All right, I'll concede about the difficulties with the alignment shifts. (of course, didn't somebody or something talk about have Revan became evil and defeated the republic in order to make it stronger and in so doing save it from the "real" threat, which threatened both the sith and jedi? If so, then couldn't he become more of a grey character through his travels in the unknown regions because of his situation and his enemy? Just a thought)

I would like it if they continued as Revan to "wrap" his character up, but there is problems with playing as him. And anyways, I have some pretty cool ideas for being a new PC and looking for Revan. The way I see it, there is some problems on both sides.
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Old 09-24-2005, 02:03 AM   #52
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Besides, the only true way to wrap things up is to kill them all off. Then there's no way for a sequel.
I agree with Lukeiamyourdad on this one. If in TSL they never mention Revan or if they said Sion killed him then no one would be compaining about about to wrap up his story. Even if they wraped up the story line for Revan and exile, if in a 4th KOTOR they mentioned them going some where to fight some evil, galaxy threatening, thing, you guys would want them to make 5th game so you would know what happened to them. Maybe they should change the name from knights of the old republic to Star Wars the adventures of Revan and exile.

Revan and Exiles story doesn't need a whole game to conclude. I 'd be happy reading items or holocrons in my inventory to find out what happened to them.

Someone stated earlier they would sacrafice gameplay for story. all i have to say to that( quoted from Gene Wilder from the original Willy Wonka movie) is "You lose. Good Day Sir!" Its the gameplay which makes this game good. Most RPG's have a good story but very few are fun to play.

Another thing is I dont think they can make a story fo a 20 plus hr game for characters we already know about.

Maybe the game should take place 300 years after TSL. You could start off a a jedi historian whose curiosity of Revan and exile leads him/her into the ruins of the true sith empire. The new PC looking for what really happened to Revan and Exile runs into two familiar droids and a bunch of new characters who run into powerful creatures who still inhabit the empire.
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Old 09-24-2005, 02:59 AM   #53
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I agree with everything LIAYD said... now on to Vlad! He's so funny!

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Originally Posted by Vladimir-Vlada
So you are willing to sacrifice a great story for the sake of the gameplay? You know most people would play KOTOR 3 because of the story.
Vlad, seriously from all your posts lately, you wouldn't know a good story if it bit you on the behind!

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Originally Posted by Vladimir-Vlada
Let me explain:
Here it comes... let's hear the words of Vlad, the learned genius who has tons of expirience in the RPG area...

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Originally Posted by Vladimir-Vlada
I buyed KOTOR 1 because I like RPG's and Star Wars as a whole and I thoguht maybe this game will be great. It turned out to be the best. I buyed KOTOR 2 to see what kind of a story it has. To my surprise it continued the story from KOTOR 1 (with a new character). Even though the KOTOR 2 story wasn't the best, but it made an ending that can lead the story into something MUCH bigger than I hopped to be. The game's story has potential to become the greatest game EPIC of all times, as well the BEST GAME OF ALL TIMES. Under the condition that one or both of them be as PC's, as party member's or game characters (vital ones).

And here you are, complaining that by continuing their story, it would be stupid because: Revan can't have amnesia again and Ry'ghol (Exile) can't be Level 6?
Care to list your point yet Vlad? See... you can't because you don't have one... and I prove it below!

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Originally Posted by Vladimir-Vlada
If they start the next game with another PC, that would be like a completely new story. So they mean what?
I'll quote you this time, from this very post;

"I buyed KOTOR 2 to see what kind of a story it has. To my surprise it continued the story from KOTOR 1 (with a new character)." - Vlad the Drama Queen (Blame Aash Li for this title!)

You admit right here that having a new character works for continuing the story for you, so what is your whole argument against having a new PC about in KOTOR III again?

See you have no point with all this!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir-Vlada
Sorry, but you'll have to come up with a MUCH better argument than that. Revan's amnesia can be a vital asspect of the story.
So will you, please make a better argument for whatever point you are attempting to make, contradicting yourself does not help your position either.

Revan had amnesia in the first game, yes but that does not extend to the later games, having us play Revan or an Exile with amnesia again would be utterly lame... and you are just attempting to argue with us here because you are in a minority...

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Originally Posted by Vladimir-Vlada
Some guy/girl from a desert far far away goes on into life and does a lot of things in the galaxy. And all the enemies are some monsters???

Imagine it to be like this below. This is what the players might think while playing and tell to their friends about this game:

Some guy: "Hey I'm just some guy from some back of the bone village and I became some guy who can do ANYTHING he likes. I can marry someone, I can buy houses, I can buy Force Powers and I can even go to the BATHROOM! You can buy weed also. I'm high on crack now if you haven't noticed by the way. *Smirk* So anyway, the game is easy, just go to some dungeon, they mention some Sith guy, you go and you kill them. You also get some doo-doo brainiac bratty, drunk teen-agers that s**t to you about how you can play poker with them or have a cat-fight. There are some cool shotguns and some weid flash-lights. Maybe the story sucks but the gameplay ROCKS!"

Some other guy: "What do you mean it rocks? You can't marry anyone, you can't buy houses and the fighting system animations remind me of children bashing swords at each other. Also, when you shoot, the comp aims for you. How cool is that?"

Some guy: "But it has some cool RPG elements. Not so many classes, but who the F**K cares? So, you can't complain."

Some other guy: "Yes, I have also noticed that the story sucks? Why didn't they make it better? The story really was good in the past two and in this one the story could have rocked if it continued on the past two with either of the characters."

Some guy: "It's because amnesia would be over-used, it would suck with Revan. It wouldn't make sence and how could you explain by starting Level 1 with the Exile? So it's better that it is a new character."

Some other guy: "But couldn't they at least insert some hack-and-slash? So that we could enjoy cutting our enemies into pieces?"

Some guy: "No, because it is NOT an FPS, it is based on D20 rules and I think that that's the best."

Some other guy: "Well, I must be really dumb to want those things I mentioned. I should agrre with you."

Some guy: "You did a good thing."
Random ravings from LF's very own Vladimir-Vlada the Drama Queen!

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Originally Posted by Vladimir-Vlada
^^^ Yes! Enjoy your conservative ways, while the others start throwing rocks at the developers, burning their offices and robbing distribution houses. The game without a great story is the new trend isn't it? Maybe we shouldn't get exited when a potential EPIC story-based game triology starts and ends with just "GREAT" gameplay. Thanks a lot!
You really live in your own little world don't you?

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Originally Posted by Vladimir-Vlada
Ha Ha! I hope you get thee point from the above.
The point I get is Aash Li was right you are a Drama Queen, this latest rant from you proves it.

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Originally Posted by Vladimir-Vlada
And yes! I am pretty sure that a lot of people have an idea for the story that would fit with you starting as Revan or the Ry'ghol at Level 1.
See, us mature people like to play a game and discover the story, and building a character as we go, not having a super hero handed to us complete with known history, to start a game with. That game would last all of 15 minutes! Having to play the Exile or Revan again with amnesia or other mental illnesses to reduce their level to 1 would be, well... I have one word for that game... you know that word too!

Having the Exile or Revan as an NPC would be a really bad idea too, if they do fight by our new characters side or against us, it would only be in a possible ending battle, this situation quite possibly could even require our new PC to have to kill Revan, or the Exile, or both, pending Revan's and the Exile's alignments and the new characters choices/alignment through the third installment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir-Vlada
And just because someone who doesn't agree with the youth that Revan or Ry'ghol (Exile) should be a party member or PC, is a honorary member with 2000+ posts doesn't mean that we should call that one a genius and that we should agree with that one. LOL HA HA HA HA
Now I see we can apparently add post-count envy to your list of foibles?

Seriously Vlad, if you want to properly discuss these issues with us, please try sticking to a logical point, try not to contradict yourself, and lay off the sauce!

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
I don't understand why people have all these problems with Revan or the Exile even just appearing again.
I have no problems with them appearing, and an appearance will likely be mandintory for Revan in KOTOR III, but not as a recruited NPC or player character, whatever Revan's or the Exile's roles they will likely be in cutscenes, or a possible final battle. Though scripting the Exile's appearance would be a pain in the arse!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Young Outlaw
Revan and Exiles story doesn't need a whole game to conclude. I 'd be happy reading items or holocrons in my inventory to find out what happened to them.

Another thing is I dont think they can make a story fo a 20 plus hr game for characters we already know about.
Exactly! Some people are clueless to these tidbits of logic!


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Old 09-24-2005, 04:48 AM   #54
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Who do you think will be in KOTOR 3, who the playable character, who the party member, anyone else. {snip}
I disagree. Most of my party members are dead. Sion is definitely dead, and it would kind of ruin the confrontations with him if he lived. Vandar, Zhar and Dorak were all killed by Nihilus. There can't be an old Jedi, because everyone seems to be forgetting...

The Jedi are dead and gone.

I do not believe the Exile will be a party member. I think both Revan and the Exile will be playable characters, and you will alternate between the two of them.

Here's a list of basic things that should happen: Revan and the Exile meet up. There should be a big war, and a huge battle over Coruscant between what's left of the Republic, The False Sith and the True Sith. You should alternate between Revan and the Exile. They should talk a great deal about Revan's past. There should be some plot twists, a force ghost Kreia, and a really epic final battle.

In my opinion, a new character would be awful. There's no need for a new one, and I would love to see more of Revan and the Exile. They are not obsolete.


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Old 09-24-2005, 08:01 AM   #55
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Surely, a NJO would have been made, where Revan, Bastila and Exile were the three main protagonists, then from there you could play a new recruit, yes it's exactly what happens in JK:JA but it would be a bit of a let down to use the Exile and Revan as playable characters. Saying that, I'd prefer no sequal :S
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Old 09-24-2005, 09:17 AM   #56
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Instead of mindless bashing on the opposing argument, perhaps somebody could come up with something better then "the story will suck with a new PC".
Well, you could also other than "It wouldn't make sense".

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We don't need to play as the old characters. We can have a very interesting story with a whole new character. How many of you, complained about there being a new PC in TSL? How many whined about that? So many. What happens now? "We want the Exile back."
I didn't complain. I was expecting that there would be a new character, because I didn't know how to continue the story. But they made it that it leads to a KICK A$$ story if continued.

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I already explained how you can make a new PC totally interesting, how the gameplay with Revan or the Exile again would simply be bad.
Post your idea, instead of just quoting others.

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Another story of amnesia? Give me a break, we've been there, accusing us of being conservative, those who even consider that idea are even more conservative, trying to keep an old and already used formula.
I think that you should give US a break. Leave us with our fantasies.

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Force vacuum? That sounds way too farfetched or something coming from some bad EU author who tried too hard to come up with a "cool" element.
That sounds good. There are places dead to the Force, which syphon it to feed it's hungry wound.

Quote:
Up to now, there has been no intelligent, well formulated argument on why the story would suck if we played with a new PC. All the partisans of that idea can come up with is:"But it wouldn't finish the storyline!"
If you are refering to me, then I agree. But leave the other alone. ForceFightWMe, Hai Wan and Rob-Qel Droma have excellent ideas and arguments.

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Why would it not? What if you play Revan's son looking for his father or mother? Has anyone of you even considered any possibilities?
Aha. 14 years have past, the Republic and the Jedi are still weak but holding. The Sith are at the front door and they didn't bother doing anything.

HELLO!

Something must have happened during those 14 years! You don't sacrifice half of your followers just so that you could stop after everything.

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Or is the argument down to:"I like Revan/Exile. I want to play as Revan/Exile."
What's the difference between our arguments? You say "I want a new character." We say "I want Revan and the Exile back."

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I won't point fingers at anyone, but a lot of "ideas" might sound "nice" on paper but put into a more physical form, it might not work at all. Hell, some of the ideas some people have would simply destroy the game, I'll say it clearly, that's what I think some of you want. For a "cool" factor, you're ready to sacrifice the gameplay.
Got any better ideas? Post them in other threads.

If you are saying that we are ready to sacrifice the gameplay, for the sake of the story, which (accidentally ) in fact marks the facts of the core of every RPG in existence and non-existence. Then YES. I am ready to sacrifice the gameplay for the sake of the story. Because I like stories.

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Second matter, FPS gameplay. This is also something about the "cool" factor that doesn't work in reality. It might look or sound nice on paper, but it's not going to work in an RPG. End of the line.
You are the first person to mention the FPS in this entire thread.

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Finally, I'll have to say something about veterans. Veterans are not gods, they're not smarter or wiser then anyone. They only have more experience then most newbies about posting here at LFN.
So we have to agree with you? All right. I bow down to you, experienced individual, I will forsake my own opinion for the sake of your own. Let's agree with them. They are always right.

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If a newbie, acts mature, discuss with good arguments, he will be respected as much as any veteran.
Look at Hai Wan. He doesn't have that many posts yet I have a lot of respect for him.
Commas also. He was the only defensor of the "Exile for K3" philosophy that came up with good solid arguments.
Finally! Someone's idea and imagination is respected here.

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If you can come up with good solid arguments, ways to truly convince the most "conservative" veteran, then your voice will be heard.
You are not a developer and neither are we. And we DON'T need to argument someone so that we could fantasise about things we want. You can't take away that right from others.

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If the only thing you can come up with is:"But that would be so cool!" then no, nobody will listen to you.
Do I have to post the enitre story I imagined? To have a premission to imagine those things in my little brain?! If so then OK. But don't blame ME if that is the story! I hate spoliers.

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LIYAD out.
Vlada sigining off.

* He gets up from his chair and unplugs the radio on which lukeiamyourdad transmited... *
Good! Now we can talk about how we IMAGINE things would be like. Instead of just justifing our imagination.

Now to RedHawke, someone who doesn't take these things THAT seriously.

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Vlad, seriously from all your posts lately, you wouldn't know a good story if it bit you on the behind!
Wait until you read my version.

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Here it comes... let's hear the words of Vlad, the learned genius who has tons of expirience in the RPG area...
Very funny.

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Care to list your point yet Vlad? See... you can't because you don't have one... and I prove it below!
Ooops! Forgot to mention it. Here it goes: The point is that the story has been built already and that just leaving them like that would prove that what BioWare, Obsidian worked on and the characters that were created were for NOTHING.

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You admit right here that having a new character works for continuing the story for you, so what is your whole argument against having a new PC about in KOTOR III again?
Because I didn't know how will the story continue with KOTOR 2.

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Vlad the Drama Queen (Blame Aash Li for this title!)
Yeah, I know.

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So will you, please make a better argument for whatever point you are attempting to make, contradicting yourself does not help your position either.
I just have an imagination.

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and you are just attempting to argue with us here because you are in a minority...
You have no idea what goes on in my head.

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The point I get is Aash Li was right you are a Drama Queen, this latest rant from you proves it.
I went to acting class for 8 years.

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Seriously Vlad, if you want to properly discuss these issues with us, please try sticking to a logical point, try not to contradict yourself, and lay off the sauce!
You do know that you don't have a point at all, do you?

Seesh! We just have an imagination. And we don't need to justify our imaginative fantasies, everyone has their own.

Plus: You are not developers!
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Old 09-24-2005, 10:03 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Vladimir-Vlada
Well, you could also other than "It wouldn't make sense".
Actually, I did provide arguments coming with the "it wouldn't make sense".


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Originally Posted by Vladimir-Vlada
I didn't complain. I was expecting that there would be a new character, because I didn't know how to continue the story. But they made it that it leads to a KICK A$$ story if continued.
How do you even know that Obsidian wanted to continues with the Exile in a third installment?


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Originally Posted by Vladimir-Vlada
Post your idea, instead of just quoting others.
I try to refrain from posting ideas until I can come up with something.
As a matter of fact, I did come up with ideas to rebalance ranged/melee and dual/single a few months ago until the thread was destroyed by the LF server.



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Originally Posted by Vladimir-Vlada
I think that you should give US a break. Leave us with our fantasies.
Actually, fantasies are supposed to stay in your heads. I'll explain below.


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Originally Posted by Vladimir-Vlada
That sounds good. There are places dead to the Force, which syphon it to feed it's hungry wound.
Like I said, he would face Sith Lords who are weak in the Force because of this Force vacuum? Or like Rob said, a place extremely strong in the dark side so that a Light Sider would be "blind", however, what if Revan was a Dark Sider? It poses quite a problem.



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Originally Posted by Vladimir-Vlada
If you are refering to me, then I agree. But leave the other alone. ForceFightWMe, Hai Wan and Rob-Qel Droma have excellent ideas and arguments.
They have ideas and arguments. Solid arguments beyond the same old "suckyness" argument? I don't think so.


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Originally Posted by Vladimir-Vlada
Aha. 14 years have past, the Republic and the Jedi are still weak but holding. The Sith are at the front door and they didn't bother doing anything.

HELLO!

Something must have happened during those 14 years! You don't sacrifice half of your followers just so that you could stop after everything.
I don't know what the hell this is all about.


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Originally Posted by Vladimir-Vlada
What's the difference between our arguments? You say "I want a new character." We say "I want Revan and the Exile back."
I try to come up with good arguments beyond those words.


Got any better ideas? Post them in other threads.


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Originally Posted by Vladimir-Vlada
If you are saying that we are ready to sacrifice the gameplay, for the sake of the story, which (accidentally ) in fact marks the facts of the core of every RPG in existence and non-existence. Then YES. I am ready to sacrifice the gameplay for the sake of the story. Because I like stories.
There's something called watching a movie or reading a book. Try that, there's no GAMEPLAY involved.


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Originally Posted by Vladimir-Vlada
You are the first person to mention the FPS in this entire thread.
Quote:
Some other guy: "But couldn't they at least insert some hack-and-slash? So that we could enjoy cutting our enemies into pieces?"

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Originally Posted by Vladimir-Vlada
So we have to agree with you? All right. I bow down to you, experienced individual, I will forsake my own opinion for the sake of your own. Let's agree with them. They are always right.
No. This is just you taking a part of a post, removing it out of context and trying to counter it.

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Originally Posted by Vladimir-Vlada
Finally! Someone's idea and imagination is respected here.
I always respect the arguments of those who can post intelligent arguments based on facts, logic, etc.


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Originally Posted by Vladimir-Vlada
You are not a developer and neither are we. And we DON'T need to argument someone so that we could fantasise about things we want. You can't take away that right from others.


Do I have to post the enitre story I imagined? To have a premission to imagine those things in my little brain?! If so then OK. But don't blame ME if that is the story! I hate spoliers.
This is where I'm going to explain why this is so important. See, I'll tell you the tale of a game called Star Wars Battlefront 2.
We know now they included Jedi, which weren't playable in the first game.
At the forums, prior to the announcement of SWBF2, two groups came out. The Battlefield games veterans and the Battlefront newbies, who have less experience then the veterans.
We veterans had been through many team based FPS and know what is good, what's bad, what can unbalance the whole thing. However, we were outnumbered.
Even if we came up with past examples or rock-solid argument, on why the Jedi shouldn't be playable, the newbies would just say:"J3D1 R0XX0RS 1NCLUD3 T3H J3D1!!!!exclamation points111!!!"

The fact remained that we were slightly outnumbered and that our arguments came on deaf ears or childish counter-arguments. Only one person, which I have great respect of and still do, came up with arguments and possibilities on how the Jedi could be balanced.

However, victory and the last word was on our side. Yet, LucasArts and Pandemic decided to include the Jedi. I believe in two months, the SWBF forums will be swarmed with either:"Jedi are too strong! Nerf them!" or "Jedi are too weak! Make them stronger!"

So see, that's what is the result of posting crap on a forum. Some people actually do listen.


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Old 09-24-2005, 10:17 AM   #58
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So see, that's what is the result of posting crap on a forum. Some people actually do listen.
I hope that dosen't mean I'll get blamed if they use a "Force Vacuum" in K3!

OHH NOES!!! WHAT HAVE I DONE! THE HUMANITY!!


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Old 09-24-2005, 10:20 AM   #59
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It's all your fault! I demand you be banned and arrested right away! You should be thrown on a desert island as far from any internet connection as possible!


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Old 09-24-2005, 10:54 AM   #60
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Well, here I sit this morning, reading and catching up on this thread. And I have only one thing to say...

Holy Crap, you guys. Lighten up. All this back and forth with "You don't know what you're talking about." - "No, you don't know what you're talking about." - "No, you're a moron and you still don't know what you're talking about." All this BS over a game, and a game we only assume is being made.

Hey, I posted my opinion some time ago. So what? It's only an opinion. They sure as heck aren't going to listen to me. I don't think they're going to listen to any of us. So why get so up in arms about other people's opinions? The developers are going to come out with the game they're going to come out with. IF they come out with K3 at all (it is very possible that these forums are as close to K3 as we're going to get - I hope not, but it is possible). So until they come out with the release date or an announcement that they are, indeed, working on the game, then it's all just smoke up your skirt.
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Old 09-24-2005, 11:13 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by fresnosmokey02
Hey, I posted my opinion some time ago. So what? It's only an opinion. They sure as heck aren't going to listen to me. I don't think they're going to listen to any of us. So why get so up in arms about other people's opinions? The developers are going to come out with the game they're going to come out with. So until they come out with the release date or an announcement that they are, indeed, working on the game, then it's all just smoke up your skirt.
Now this is where you need to know what marketing is all about.

If the general opinion is x, then company will do x, even if the best solution is y.

Even if the developers say no, it's a bad idea, we don't want that, big LA marketing executive on top of their shoulder says:"Do it!"


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Old 09-24-2005, 11:30 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Now this is where you need to know what marketing is all about.

If the general opinion is x, then company will do x, even if the best solution is y.

Even if the developers say no, it's a bad idea, we don't want that, big LA marketing executive on top of their shoulder says:"Do it!"
I know what marketing is all about. Mostly it's about finding a need and filling it or creating something and telling people why they need it.

When it comes to this game, though, if they are looking for input, I'd put my money on surveys and focus groups. Maybe a forum, but I wouldn't put my money on it. Especially one with a bunch of yahoos telling each other why their ideas stink.

But I'll tell you what...even if some smelly ideas do creep into K3 (providing of course that they actually do come out with the game) and the game is of the same class as K1 and K2, I am still going to buy the game. Also providing, of course, that that they don't take so long that I am no longer interested. Five years ago I wasn't playing any video games, so who knows if five years from now I will be interested in playing video games.
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Old 09-24-2005, 12:58 PM   #63
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Holy Crap, you guys. Lighten up. All this back and forth with "You don't know what you're talking about." - "No, you don't know what you're talking about." - "No, you're a moron and you still don't know what you're talking about." All this BS over a game, and a game we only assume is being made.
Seriously guys, you don't need to flip out. This is a forum, not a battle ground.


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Old 09-24-2005, 02:40 PM   #64
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Like I said, he would face Sith Lords who are weak in the Force because of this Force vacuum? Or like Rob said, a place extremely strong in the dark side so that a Light Sider would be "blind", however, what if Revan was a Dark Sider? It poses quite a problem.
Yeah, I know, that does pose a problem. I don't think that there are any places where a dark sider would be "blind" because of the super strong light side maybe. Besides, even if it did it would invovle almost switching the storyline from fighting dark to fighting light. But anyways, how about this--> When Revan finally found the <insert enemy> in the unknown regions, the enemy realized that he was too dangerous of a threat. Collected the most powerful force users they pooled their strength and severed his connection to the force, causing him to lose all his force. After a while, he tried to reconnect with the force and was succesful because of his super strong connection to the force, therefore starting him at level one. Near the end, he finally regains all of his former force and becomes like he was before. However, by this time he is fighting some of the most powerful Sith in the galaxy, so he is just a match for them. Although, I am realizing that it would a lot easier with a new character if they are going to keep the style and gameplay of the other games.

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Originally Posted by Vladimir-Vlada
Sorry, but you'll have to come up with a MUCH better argument than that. Revan's amnesia can be a vital asspect of the story.
IF they are going to make Revan the main character, I hope not. I mean come on, they could think up something different than that. What, he so powerful in fighting and in other areas he is very weak in stuff like memory? If you want a story filled with short term memory loss, then go watch "finding nemo". Otherwise, I would rather have a new character than Revan or Exile if they are going to forget everything again.
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Old 09-24-2005, 08:57 PM   #65
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When Revan finally found the <insert enemy> in the unknown regions, the enemy realized that he was too dangerous of a threat. Collected the most powerful force users they pooled their strength and severed his connection to the force, causing him to lose all his force. After a while, he tried to reconnect with the force and was succesful because of his super strong connection to the force, therefore starting him at level one. Near the end, he finally regains all of his former force and becomes like he was before. However, by this time he is fighting some of the most powerful Sith in the galaxy, so he is just a match for them.
This does make a lot of sense. It is a viable possibility I think.

Oh and if someone looks for a well formulated idea that isn't farfetched and is solid enough to hold, take this one as an example.


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Old 09-24-2005, 10:17 PM   #66
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This does make a lot of sense. It is a viable possibility I think.

Oh and if someone looks for a well formulated idea that isn't farfetched and is solid enough to hold, take this one as an example.
And jumping 100ft and shooting lightning out of your fingers and using swords and something as impracticle as a lightsaber when you have blasters and lasers makes sense?<grin>
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Old 09-24-2005, 10:20 PM   #67
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And jumping 100ft and shooting lightning out of your fingers and using swords and something as impracticle as a lightsaber when you have blasters and lasers makes sense?<grin>

What is this exactly about? Do I detect sarcasm or something?


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Old 09-24-2005, 10:44 PM   #68
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What is this exactly about? Do I detect sarcasm or something?
Yup, that's me.
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Old 09-25-2005, 01:28 AM   #69
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@ Vladimir-Vlada, regurgitating my statements back to me is a really weak stance... Seriously, doing so without supporting anything you stated earlier means you have allready lost.

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Old 09-26-2005, 08:26 AM   #70
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Holy Crap, you guys. Lighten up. All this back and forth with "You don't know what you're talking about." - "No, you don't know what you're talking about." - "No, you're a moron and you still don't know what you're talking about." All this BS over a game, and a game we only assume is being made.
All right, I am sorry for the outburst.

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Seriously guys, you don't need to flip out. This is a forum, not a battle ground.
Um, what?!

* Holds his shotgun and starts reloading it... * just kidding

I apologise for my unapproapriate behaviour. I just sometimes get angry when someone over-reacts and accuses another person for hypocrisy because that person said how he imagines KOTOR 3.

I mean who is going to listen? I don't see anyone listening.

I mean I am sorry. I am sorry lukeiamyourdad, for not behaving properly...
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Old 09-27-2005, 07:12 AM   #71
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Well, in regards to all the talk of Revan and Exile's fates being fully revealed:

Open endings sure do keep people actively interested in a story, especially when it's over. That's the main basis of Role-Playing, especially in this storyline. People tend to like to think of their own endings or sidestories in regards to all of the characters, that's why everyone has conflicting ideas. Nobody posting in this thread can be right or wrong, so arguing is kind of pointless. I do have to say, though, that It would be difficult to include too many of the old characters into a new sequel.

After playing KotORII, I was very satisfied. Revan wasn't playable at all, but was still a major influence in the storyline. They made it so that whether or not you were dark or light, the sequel was cohesive. Some characters did make appearances, but for the most part the player was left to decide the fates of many of the characters they had played or interacted with in KotOR 1, through their imagination. I think they can still implement that successfull aspect of the game to a potential KotORIII, without reintroducing Revan or the Exile as playable characters.

What I also observed was that, one of the main reasons the story was so good was because you were always reading about people or civilizations of the past, and thinking about a potential future outside of your main character's paths. In the KotOR series, there seems to be many many stories within a story to keep you entertained throughout the entire game. From the epic overall picture, to the individual character's past lives, to the individual side-quests, and right down to the individual items, everything had it's own unique description, purpose, or direction.

It would be interesting to find out more information in regards to what had awaited our hero's/villains, but not to the extent where it reveals a straight answer as to whether the "dark" or "light" prevailed. It's impossible, since this isn't a straight story with one script. In this game series, there are potentially many stories that could be told deriving from the original outline.

I agree it would be nearly impossible to include Revan or the Exile in this potential KotORIII. It wouldn't be difficult to include the other party members as main characters, though. They did give you a choice in KotORII to decide whether or not Revan was good or evil, male or female. I can see NPCs asking you questions similar to the early KotORII conversation with Atton, to set similar values of how you percieved your past party members, if they were to become possible main PC's. That wouldn't really be too difficult. The "impossible" part, as others are trying to point out here, would just be finding a starting point (Stats and Abilities), for a main repeat character like Revan/Exile who we already know to be extremely powerful. Starting a game like this in regards to our main story is kind of silly. How many more powerful beings or creatures can there really be out in the galaxy, that are on par with seemingly all-powerful beings like Revan and the Exile, in this story. Revan, as we know, was the brilliant and revered war leader who could basically kill anyone or anything in the Galaxy at the end of KotOR1. The Exile became the fate or blight of the Galaxy also. There can't be much more than a small handful of Sith or evil beings that are more powerful than Revan/Exile, since they were basically god-like beings and saviors revered or feared by everyone. There would be a severe lack of "realistic" game development and content, as a lot of people are trying to state here in the thread. By realistic, I am referring to how it fits within our story's own "little" Star Wars universe.

So...

With all that said... if I had to choose who I'd like to see return as the main characters... Well, I can't. However, I will admit that I'd love to see a KotORIII that gives you the choice of playing as the Handmaiden, the Deciple, Bao-Dur, Visas, Mira, or Atton. As far as KotORII goes, these characters weren't as powerful or important to the end of the game as the Exile was, obviously. Their "destinies" weren't that clearly defined at the end of the game either. They are Jedi's though, still have a lot to learn, and room to expand. That's why I think they'd make for a good return to KotORIII as the main characters over Revan or Exile, if any. It would also be cool to either be able to interact with, or find pieces of information about the other KotOR 1 characters. Some of them were killed if you played darkside, this is true, but there could always be a twist in the story, such as... they didn't actually die, but you thought they died. Just a thought. It would work. My imagination shall continue to create its own stories for those characters when I'm bored or trying to go to sleep, though.

I also cannot forget HK-47 and T3-M4. They should be required to play some pivital role in the game as well. Clearly they were the real stars in these games. I'd like to see G0-T0 again also, I enjoyed the humor and mystery in that character droid just as much as the other two. Droid immortality is pretty huge in Star Wars I guess. If they died it would probably be more tragic than actual living beings.
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Old 09-27-2005, 10:15 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by theeautomator
I agree it would be nearly impossible to include Revan or the Exile in this potential KotORIII.
Why do you say that? Are you talking about Revan and Exile being party members, or are you talking about them just appearing. Because, if it is the latter, then I disagree with you. There really isn't any problem in the game itself with them showing up, I can't think of anything that would prevent it. If you can choose what Revan's alignment was and gender, like you talked about after, then you could choose what they looked like. Same goes for the Exile. As for Stats and Abilities, have a conversation where you choose their classes. Then, go with the recommended stats and skills for those classes, and then you decide a level. The max level is 20 in KotOR, and so Revan would be level 20 at the beginning of KotOR II, then a prestiege class, also decided by you, and then go on the usual amount of levels gained by the Exile and add it to his current total. Besides, you would find them near the end (if you weren't playing as one of them).


Quote:
With all that said... if I had to choose who I'd like to see return as the main characters... Well, I can't. However, I will admit that I'd love to see a KotORIII that gives you the choice of playing as the Handmaiden, the Deciple, Bao-Dur, Visas, Mira, or Atton. As far as KotORII goes, these characters weren't as powerful or important to the end of the game as the Exile was, obviously. Their "destinies" weren't that clearly defined at the end of the game either. They are Jedi's though, still have a lot to learn, and room to expand. That's why I think they'd make for a good return to KotORIII as the main characters over Revan or Exile, if any. It would also be cool to either be able to interact with, or find pieces of information about the other KotOR 1 characters. Some of them were killed if you played darkside, this is true, but there could always be a twist in the story, such as...
Why does everyone want to see the people from KotOR II, or KotOR I? I think that you should have completely new characters, since most of the characters backstorys in both games were completed. I don't see that it would make a good game, if you had people you knew pretty much all that mattered about them, it would not be very interesting. Besides, as for the plot twist you suggested, I'm sorry, but I think that that would just be a bit stupid. I would be ok with just seeing an appearance and seeing what happened to them, but not them being characters again.

Quote:
I also cannot forget HK-47 and T3-M4. They should be required to play some pivital role in the game as well. Clearly they were the real stars in these games. I'd like to see G0-T0 again also, I enjoyed the humor and mystery in that character droid just as much as the other two. Droid immortality is pretty huge in Star Wars I guess. If they died it would probably be more tragic than actual living beings.
Yes, they should bring back HK and T3. Quoting somebody else, "they are the C-3PO and R2-D2 of KotOR." However, with what you said about G0-T0, I think you are the only person I ever heard say that.
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Old 09-27-2005, 04:14 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
Why does everyone want to see the people from KotOR II, or KotOR I? I think that you should have completely new characters, since most of the characters backstorys in both games were completed.
I'd like to see a mix of old and new. There are lots of KotOR (i and ii) characters that could be developped more. I am sure we will see Bao Dur back, just because of Kreia's comments about him at the end, and I am in no way sorry about that. But new characters are essential also, to make for a different party dynamic.
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Old 09-27-2005, 04:37 PM   #74
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Yeah, I do want to see some people from the earlier ones back, and some of the others making appearances, but I just don't want to see a party made up entirely KotOR I and II characters, as people have suggested. I hope they don't reuse more than four or so, including T3-M3 and HK-47 of course, and then another one or two, kind of like Mandoloure K2.
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Old 09-27-2005, 09:49 PM   #75
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Someone said that carth could be dead depending of how you played K1, but when and where I dont remember this option and i played the game 3 times ?
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Old 09-27-2005, 11:21 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by AnarKy
Someone said that carth could be dead depending of how you played K1, but when and where I dont remember this option and i played the game 3 times ?
Here's what I did:
spoiler:
Play female Revan. Go LS all the way to the end, then on the Unknown planet, switch to the dark side. Carth will run away, and then come to the star forge to try and convert you one last time. You can't accept the offer, and he ends up dead.


That's how it worked for me, anyway. Though really, the ending I always WANTED was:
spoiler:
Play female Revan. Go grey all the way. At the end, make the DS choice, and be a bad-ass. Then at the last possible moment (when Carth comes to the star forge and tells you to reconsider), do it. Sadly, you don't get the option to take him up on the offer. All the dialog options lead to his death.
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Old 09-27-2005, 11:23 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
Yeah, I do want to see some people from the earlier ones back, and some of the others making appearances, but I just don't want to see a party made up entirely KotOR I and II characters, as people have suggested.
Just out of curiousity, which ones would you like to see: (a) as possible party members, and (b) making appearances?
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Old 09-28-2005, 10:26 AM   #78
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possible party members-
(a) T3-M3
HK-47
after that, I am not really sure, maybe one of these-
Atton
Bao-Dur
Bastila(if she is still alive)

As I said, I don't want all of those, just one or two of them. For making reappearances, I would like to see-
(b)Mission Vao
Carth Onasi
Bastila (I know I already mentioned her but I would like her to reappear if she doesn't become a party member)
Jolee(maybe as a force ghost)
Visas Marr

That is what I might like for party members and reappearances.
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Old 09-28-2005, 10:42 AM   #79
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Another point of view

Hi to all. I am of the opinion that the story in KOTOR III can be as exciting -if not more- as the prequels with a completely new PC. It will have to be a slightly bigger story though. Let's assume that there are troubled times -as always in Star Wars universe- and you start with a new character. This character will be no Jedi with the choice, as in KOTOR I, to be soldier, scout or scoundrel and the player will face tough challenges as an entry point (much like Taris or Peragus), where there will be encounters who will give information on the story about what happened to Revan and the exile, but not before asking the player some info about their genre and alignment. It could also be that, in connection to the player's alignment and the responses given earlier, an encounter with Revan or the exile can be arranged so that one of them becomes the player's tutor (maybe in a quest to stop the other one?), like Kreia's role in II. The possibilities are limitless.
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Old 09-30-2005, 10:48 AM   #80
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Another idea I had is... how would you like it if you could save your character at the end of the game and be able to insert it as a starting point in KOTOR 4 say? Could it be done? I guess it could and, if it did, would you people like it to start KOTOR 4 from where you left KOTOR 3 off?
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