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Old 01-11-2006, 05:27 PM   #81
PoiuyWired
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I wish they make a canon EU of "Death of Jar Jar"

Make it long, bloody and slow... I would totally buy that :3
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Old 01-13-2006, 01:52 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PoiuyWired
I wish they make a canon EU of "Death of Jar Jar"

Make it long, bloody and slow... I would totally buy that :3

Amen to that!

('can't belive I used to like that retarded thing)
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Old 01-13-2006, 02:40 PM   #83
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Perverts.

Oh yeah, O/T, The clones rock. I suppose it's because they actually act like soldiers and are a lot more "realistic" compared to our attitudes on war. For example, a Swat Team would own Tantive 4 better than Stormies. Why? Shotguns and flash/frag grenades.

The way I see it, Episode 4+ was created when Buck Rogers was cool, but Episodes 1-3 were created when the War on Terror is a common source of entertainment, and it leaks into the way millitary units are designed, even into concept art and the way people "do" things.


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Old 01-13-2006, 04:23 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Redtech
For example, a Swat Team would own Tantive 4 better than Stormies. Why? Shotguns and flash/frag grenades.
The Stormtroopers were ordered to do the least amount of damage to the ship possible, considering that the DS plans could be anywhere. So that'd be a no to shotguns or grenades.
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Old 01-17-2006, 06:24 AM   #85
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Right, so when has shooting with BLASTERS meant minimal damage? There's some nasty property damage with burnmarks and a decent explosion when the door blows up, if I recall.

Anyway, Flash grenades aren't destructive. In-out, BAM! They can't hear or see. And shotguns are efficient when the target is gawping at you with a stupid helmet on.

Guess I should design a Star Wars "gore" mod then. :P


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Old 01-18-2006, 01:03 AM   #86
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Do they HAVE shotguns?
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Old 01-18-2006, 09:15 PM   #87
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The EP3 Clone Troopers were awesome and I must say that they are badass.
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Old 01-19-2006, 12:58 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by St. Jimmy
Do they HAVE shotguns?
Well, in Star Wars EU, shotguns exist, mainly to fill the sterotype that every FPS must have a pistol, machine gun, heavy machine gun, sniper rifle and shotgun. *yawn*

As for Swat Teams:
http://www.specialoperations.com/Dom...atweapons.html

I will quote selectively.Shotguns are employed for numerous different uses in SWAT. Shotguns are very versatile weapons and for that reason are favored by entry teams. Buckshot rounds may be used for several different purposes. Shotgun uses include using special breaching rounds to breach door hinges and locks, using gas rounds to launch tear gas into structures, and even using flares in nighttime operations. The most common breaching technique is to use a pistol-gripped shotgun with special magnesium "TKO" round that will disentegrate on impact.


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Old 01-20-2006, 12:00 AM   #89
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[QUOTE=Redtech]Well, in Star Wars EU, shotguns exist, mainly to fill the sterotype that every FPS must have a pistol, machine gun, heavy machine gun, sniper rifle and shotgun. *yawn*

What would be cool is if they fired laser shots rather than bullets
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Old 01-20-2006, 07:13 AM   #90
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I do agree. I'm thinking more "chunky" shots, rather than stacco 'blips' of machine gun fire.


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Old 01-22-2006, 01:58 AM   #91
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I like the clone troopers better. I think they are better developed than the storm troopers of the original series. They have way more variations in color, uniforms etc. and just the whole idea of a complete army of clones kind of fascinates me.
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Old 01-22-2006, 10:24 AM   #92
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1 thing that is funny in BF2 is that 1 stormtrooper was saying that darth vader bought all of us better armor and weapons. And when i played as a stormtrooper the weapons weren't as good as the clone troopers. (I know SWB2 isn't suppose to be mentioned in here but I just wanted to bring it up).


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Old 01-23-2006, 11:21 AM   #93
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Yeah, interesting no? Actually could argue that technology advances slowly, but backwards??


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Old 02-03-2006, 04:23 PM   #94
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The 501st Leigon troopers from EPIII are better than in the original trilogy, the look WAY cooler, and they absolutely own. The troopers on Kashyyk in EPIII look so cool!
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Old 02-05-2006, 07:59 AM   #95
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Yeah, fighting a war does mean fighting like solders (with cammo, decent aim etc) is REALLY useful.


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Old 02-23-2006, 04:09 PM   #96
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ok. Stormtroopers are clones troopers. the weapons have upgraded with the armour so armour looks weak. but hey if the clones fought the stormies the stormies would have won. i have played game simulaters and stormies kick ass on land. the air well ties where meants to swarm you and take you out in numbers. clones where transports and had jedi on thier side. and well jangos dna did not get destroyed. their was boba fett the same genetic code. he also did not die on tatooine as lots of people believe. read the star wars dictionary. its explains a lot to you guys

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Old 02-24-2006, 12:35 PM   #97
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*Yawn*

Well I've clocked up 20,000 hours in combat simulation and I can beat a Stormtrooper in Arm Wrestling, spot the sarcasm.

The Clones were based on Jango, in film, they were played by millitary personal, hence their excellant and realistic combat skills. In the other films, the stormies were played by people off the street, for all intents and purposes, and they couldn't aim for crap.


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Old 03-02-2006, 12:33 PM   #98
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ok. every time you see a stormie shoot thier was a jedi around right? yes old ben he could have fogged thier vesion sence they where weak minded and could be swayed in the ways of the force. when thier wasnt jedi around they had good shots and kicked ass.

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Old 03-02-2006, 12:40 PM   #99
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Explain Episode 3 then. Heck, in Geonosis, many Jedi were owned by droids!


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Old 03-02-2006, 10:24 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthzeta
ok. every time you see a stormie shoot thier was a jedi around right? yes old ben he could have fogged thier vesion sence they where weak minded and could be swayed in the ways of the force. when thier wasnt jedi around they had good shots and kicked ass.
That still can't explain the overall lack of quality shown by stormtroopers on Endor, Cloud City, or other parts of the Death Star. It's probable that, in the 18 years between Episode III and IV, the army was weakened to some extent, allowing typical flesh-and blood recruits and conscripts with less training than the old clones. If the first Death Star had not been destroyed, Palpatine probably could have stayed in control with merely that weapon. The fact that the army was not brought up to step between IV and VI, to me, seems to indicate that Palpatine basically underestimated the Rebellion and refused to see it as the threat it truly was.
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Old 03-03-2006, 12:32 PM   #101
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well droids are not humans and there for are a program. the stormies where caught off guard on endor cloud city actually went well for the stormies and well you have to remember. is han a bad shot? no he is a discharfed imperal officer. and well lucas coudnt have his main characters die so he had to make them miss and hell the droids did not own the jedi at all. 200 verses 10000 was a bad start to begin with

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Old 03-03-2006, 03:33 PM   #102
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I love the clone troopers...I mainly like the clone commandos...from republic commando. Arcs are cool too...um...probably the reason we like clones more is because...depending on our ages...we have been watching Stormtroopers since 1977...but clone troopers were a change of style...if episode 4 and 2 came out at the same time, i'm sure people would have said the stormies...but they didn't so people are going with what is new...they are both equally cool but we get bored of watching the same white suits dying all the time...this dude is particularly cool...


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Old 03-03-2006, 07:51 PM   #103
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Via the EU, the storming of the Tantive IV was completely unnecessary, 'nuff said. Heck, even using the tools of the movies they could probably have done it better (are we to assume that such "breachs" occured all over the ship?).

The scene was done like this because it "looked cool" and perhaps to show that the Stormtroopers are just that suicidally loyal and the Empire doesn't care about losing individual troops, so long as they get the job done. When Darth Vader orders you in there, you obey (since he's scarier than even the Rebels you're fighting!).

The problem with the EU regarding the number of troops in the "Grand Army" is that they are too minimalist. Some crazy writers asserted recently that there were less than 4 million clones fighting the war (which is insane) vs. billions of battle droids. If you take the statements in AOTC at face value, they only had 1.2 million clones, and if you extrapolate the number of battle droids based on that one factory you see, then the Republic should have lost the war, if the Clones were the entire army. The logistics are just impossible. So you either have to assume they supplement their army extensively, or the clone production has been greatly expanded after the movies, not simply tripled (to come up with the 3+ million EU numbers). The EU writers responsible for the minimalist figures tried to dodge criticisms by saying that each trooper was worth 200 (or even 2,000) battle droids, which of course is completely at odds with what we see in the movies. The CIS would win the war simply by virtue of the fact that they can out produce. Yes, we know the war was "fixed" from the start, but still. So we have to assume they had lots of cloning facilities all over the place and learned how to speed up the production and supplemented the army with other forces beyond just the boys in white.

Beyond character shields, we'll just have to assume that the Troopers have just gone down in quality lately (training, funding, not necessarily claiming that they're cloned off some guy who isn't very good or that they have to be conscripts, even though that's valid too), OR we simply are only shown the worst troops, not the best.

Then again it's always fun to assume the ones in the classic trilogy are 60 year old (physically) clones, and that explains how they have trouble against the youthful rebels and fuzzy ewoks.


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Old 03-05-2006, 10:21 AM   #104
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Well, they do fight a lot like someone's grandpa, come to think of it!


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Old 03-06-2006, 12:45 PM   #105
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lol. wow what a point. well also the only reason han solo escaped tatooine was because they placed a tracker on his ship to find out the rebel hide-out

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Old 03-06-2006, 02:37 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
The EU writers responsible for the minimalist figures tried to dodge criticisms by saying that each trooper was worth 200 (or even 2,000) battle droids, which of course is completely at odds with what we see in the movies.
Ridiculous, indeed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
So we have to assume they had lots of cloning facilities all over the place and learned how to speed up the production
Wasn't the speeding up of cloning what lead to clone madness in the Thrawn trilogy? I know that was a different cloning system, but still...

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Originally Posted by Kurgan
and supplemented the army with other forces beyond just the boys in white.
This did occur many times in the EU...

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Old 03-06-2006, 06:55 PM   #107
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Prime to your last point, I'm just saying that the "Grand Army of the Republic" wasn't just the Stormtroopers. It was also fleets, armies, etc, as part of a larger military expansion "package." It's been assumed by many fans that the Republic would HAVE to have some kind of armies to police the galaxy before AOTC, as 10,000 Jedi (?knights?) wouldn't be able to do it. So each planet would have their own police forces and "national guard" type forces, and perhaps contribute forces to the Republic like how the United Nations works today. Others have said that the Republic had its own Navy, but that it was small and not really up to the task of fighting a full scale war should one break out (this is probably used to explain how they mention Republic uniforms or "old veterans" in the EU, but I could be wrong). This "they had a small navy" might explain how they were able to get all those vehicles and things for the Clones so quickly in AOTC (we're never told the Kaminoeans built them all). The prequel movies don't tell us one way or the other. They imply there is no Republic military, only the Jedi Knights, and some small security forces on Coruscant (the Senate Guard, and the chancellor creates his own personal body guard), plus a few local security forces like the Naboo (they don't claim to have an army, just some stunt fighters more suited to air shows and traffic reports than fighting a planetary defence, police force and a body guard for the Royalty). That the Republic has no army is also supported by the fact that the Trade Federation has their own droid army (they didn't just build it to invade Naboo, they had some already, presumably for defense, which they wouldn't need if the Republic army was already protecting them, unless they were super paranoid).


But anyway, having the ENTIRE manpower force of the Grand Army of the Republic being clones really stretches credibility, if we're forced to assume there are only 1.2 million (or even the "expanded" figure of 3.5 or whatever million) men. Staffing Cruisers and Star Destroyers alone would quickly use up that figure, and you're supposed to police a galaxy and fight an army of billions of droids with that? Yeah right! The Republic would LOSE in a hurry.

Not saying you're wrong, just clarifying my point, I hope.

The "expansion" of the Stormtrooper ranks with a small percentage of non-clone conscripts (not recruites) would come much later, according to Lucas. The ROTS Visual Dictionary claims that they had "multiple planets and multiple clone templates" for the Clones already by ROTS, but that doesn't really leave much time to create those clones in time for the Clone Wars, and it still posits a mostly clone force for the Stormtroopers. The official EU figure was less than 4 million men in the white armor doing all fighting plus a few thousand Jedi, which is patently ridiculous ridiculous. Anyway...

....

Well, it was all one big retcon.

Fact: The EU writers by and large had no idea that Lucas "always intended" for the Stormtroopers to be clones of Jango Fett (they hadn't even heard of such a character, nor did they know that Boba Fett was "always intended" to be a clone).

The one source (from 1980 or '81 that interpreted Stormtroopers are being "cloned men" was ignored by EVERYONE until 2002).

Fact: When Timothy Zahn wrote his three book cycle (referred to by fans as "The Thrawn Trilogy" or "Heir to the Empire Trilogy" take your pick), which was the first set of liscensed novels released since the movies ended (and jump started the whole "Expanded Universe" which then was alternatively called the "Extended Universe" or EU for short) nobody had any details really of what the "clone wars" really were.

All we knew was that sometime in the past, during the period of the "Old Republic" in which the Jedi Knights were "guardians of peace and justice" (per Ben Kenobi's "before the Dark times" speech to Luke in ANH). It was thought that this occured a long long time ago. After all, Anakin is an old man, as is Ben. Owen and Beru are old. The Empire seems to have been in power a long time. The Jedi are thought to be extinct and little is known about them except by select individuals. Han Solo and Admiral Motti heap scorn on the legendary figures of Jedi, considering them "sorcerors" and labelling their powers "simple tricks and nonesense." Even Owen Lars refers to Kenobi scornfully as "that wizard's just a crazy old man."

The Jedi Lore is thought to be lost. The Clone Wars are a mystery. We only know that Luke's father (who isn't named until ROTJ as Anakin) and Ben Kenobi, and Darth Vader (whom we later learn is one and the same with Anakin of course) took part in it. The Clone Wars are never directly linked to the fall of the Republic.

When Tim Zahn's novels came out the general feeling among fans was that the Clone Wars involved the Republic, lead or assisted by the Jedi (as the Republic's military leaders) fighting AGAINST clones. Lucas himself makes references to "Mandalorian Supercommandos" in early interviews and it's assumed that this consisted of the enemy forces, who used clones against the Republic.

The clones in the Zahn trilogy are portrayed as part of a "lost technology" that is "banned." Luke & co. are "shocked" to see Clones being used by Grand Admiral Thrawn and others. This would be odd if they had ever taken off a stormtrooper helmet before this time in all their days of fighting the Empire, or if people like Mon Mothma knew that the Republic used Clones as did the Empire from the very beginning.

It's now a bit incongruous, so the retcon is that they switched cloning methods (the Spaarti cylinders that grow an adult in a month to 3 years with a "Flash brain implant" that goes crazy unless you have a ysalamiri present and gives off a "weird vibe" in the Force are totally different than the kaminoean method we see in AOTC) and that this was secret and such, etc. It still doesn't explain details like why the Rebels should be surprised to see clones as if they were seeing them for the first time (since Lucas himself explains that only a few conscripts were used to supplement the Stormtrooper corps by the time of the classic trilogy, they were still mostly clones, and Jango clones were still in use, as Lucas specifically identifies the "head banging" stormtrooper in ANH as one of them).

In the EU prior to AOTC, it was assumed that Stormtroopers were just regular recruites who were brainwashed. One story had them all being shaved bald. They were male, caucasian human beings, who were born the old fashioned way and not clones grown in a tank and trained for 10 years. They weren't Spaarti clones either (now portrayed as either a failed experiment or a secret nobody but a few higher ups in the Empire ever knew), until years after the Empire had fallen, with Grand Admiral Thrawn in charge of a remnant force trying to re-establish themselves.

Sources like the Thrawn Trilogy and Dark Empire I & II have to be extensively retconned or else they really don't make a whole lot of sense now, reading them with the Prequels in mind. That's why they've been writing sources like "Outbound Flight" (why bother taking a mysterious trip outside the galaxy if they had already explored this territory as early as AOTC? The Thrawn Trilogy assumed vast areas of the galaxy remained unexplored, even after the Empire fell, and "nobody" had been outside the main galaxy and come back to tell about it, hence leaving open the whole "Vong invasion" in the NJO), and the upcoming (?) Death Star novel. Sources like Dark Lord were written to explain away all the inconsistencies and questions raised about Anakin in the Prequels and his presentation as Vader in the Classic trilogy.

And need I bring up Palpatine (Dark Empire I & II). It was assumed that he wasn't a very old man (though everyone else from the Republic in the Imperial age being old would have explained that well enough, but oh well), but he only looked so old because the Dark Side of the Force he wielded (he wasn't portrayed as a Force user until ESB) was so powerful that it "wore out" his body. In Dark Empire we're told that he regularly has to "transfer his soul" into a new clone body (of himself) for fear of dying out. This is is a convoluted plot device to justify resurrecting him from the dead a few times. This may now be retconned as that it was merely a mad clone who thought he was Palpatine, but I don't know for sure. This also assumes that the Spaarti cloning method existed prior to ESB, since Palpatine would need it in order to clone himself. He supposedly was already cloned by the time of the classic trilogy, but this too may be retconned now, I don't know.

Point is, the prequels really made a mess of the logistics and continuity of the EU, which was based on an interpretation of the Classic Trilogy and various new ideas thrown in later, some of which supposedly came from Lucas originally (and he changed his mind), hence the need for rewrites and explanations. Otherwise it's just incomprehensible.


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Old 03-06-2006, 09:50 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Prime to your last point, I'm just saying that the "Grand Army of the Republic" wasn't just the Stormtroopers. It was also fleets, armies, etc, as part of a larger military expansion "package."
Sorry. I know what you were saying. I was refering to the fact that the clone troopers were actively recruiting native populations as militia soldiers against the CIS.

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Old 03-06-2006, 11:26 PM   #109
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Wow. Firstly,I have to say that THIS has been a great thread (though I only read the last quarter of it), and it's been a treat riding away into your words, Kurgan.

I'm not ashamed to say it...

I absolutely love Stormtroopers. Clonetroopers.

Since I was a lad in 1977, I have been happily honked-up over Stormtroopers, and it only deepened when I first saw Clonetroopers from AOTC, and I do not believe that anything in the world is cooler than the troopers in ROTS.

Needless to say, reading a discussion on them has blindsided itself into my night (as I would otherwise be PLAYING as one on BF1 online) in an unexpectedly juicy way, and reading a well constructed piece on it-- educational, informative, and intelligently written-- is something I'd never have thought possible.

I've been a loyal and neurotic fan of the movies since I was 6... It has become a Way of Life for me. I say this with pride, and in Truth. I don't speak Huttese (often)... I just KNOW. I Understand.

It's archetypally... mythologically brilliant. To have been released at the time that it did...

Star Wars is WHY I am proud and grateful for the blessing of having been born into the era that I was, that Star Wars has been a part of my Growth Cycle throughout Life.

And...

Stormtroopers/Clonetroopers rock.

Quote:
The one source (from 1980 or '81 that interpreted Stormtroopers are being "cloned men" was ignored by EVERYONE until 2002).
Ahhhhh... I still have my copy. Granted, it's tucked safely away, and it's ripped at the seams in spots, but yes... I know of which you speak. From the days before "plasteel"... back when the Stormtroopers were wearing "Super Lightweight Imprevium"... it was that big, fold-out magazine-like book...

The World Of Star Wars, A Compendium Of Fact And Fantasy From Star Wars And The Empire Strikes Back, Issue 2; 1981, Paradise Press.

Quote:
Fact: When Timothy Zahn wrote his three book cycle... nobody had any details really of what the "clone wars" really were.
Ahhhh... the chronology put to word has been such a treat to ingest. You speak of my own learnings through time, as you speak of the ACTUAL history of Star Wars as seen through the eyes of a generation who was part of the MYSTERY of it all... before all the answers were revealed. I'm so thrilled-- truly, I am-- when I see or hear the excitement for Star Wars in today's youth, though a part of me feels treasured to be amongst those who still FEEEEEL the PROCESS of the mystery that took decades to reveal iteself like a flower unfolding petal-by-petal.

I really enjoyed the quickie tutorial on (and definition of the term) "EU". I never got heavily into it... except perhaps "Shadows Of The Empire"... maybe "Splinter OF The Mind's Eye" (now THERE's Ol' School!). Everything you said regarding the history of what was revealed and when is dead-on-balls, as I see it.

So I can totally understand how and why I rewrite/update may be in order of EU... I'm not sure how that'd be, though. All the points you pose, Kurgan, are totally valid. There ARE inconsistencies. Another option, too, would be to alter our OWN perceptions, and entertain the notion that EU is in fact what has happened ALSO... but in something of ANOTHER seedling of Possibility within the eye of Lucas (and whoever else)... an "alternate reality", if you'll pardon the cliche.

MY ofering to this incredible thread will be quotes that will absolutely astound you as they did me, a few minutes ago, when I just read them for the first time in many years from the aforementioned official Lucasfilm LTD release.

It defines a clone as identicle, solitary in purpose, property of the Emperor, typical clone info, and THEN says that "soldiers fully formed in growth tanks quickly proved impractical. Scientists found themselves the befuddled fathers of 160 pound blubbering idiots. A fetus is now removed from the hatchery after a gestation period of sixty weeks and is delivered immediately into the hands of it's trainers."

It goes on to speak of a childhood akin to "hardened cell block inmates only barely under control. Hundrets of nasty little orphans with only one thing on thier minds: the sheer unparalleled joy of a good raid". They "strut with the proud arrogance of a samurai", and "thier military education is picked up as naturally as an infant learns to talk, and any purpose other than thier preordained future as commandos is inconcievable".

The article, titled "Soldiers Of The Empire!", goes on to mention that "by the time they are actually contracted into service, each trooper is anxious to fulfil his common lifelong ambition: to wear the imperial armor, and to be carried away with the star fleet into incredible adventure and battle." It mentions the "second-skin" attachment to armor that the clone has, several individuals even fearing to remove them.

Now dig THIS, in regards to the stormtrooper's uniform... "Impervium resists decay so effectively that early models of the spacesuit can still be found near century-old battle sites. They bring high prices as souvenirs and privateers rebuild them for another fifty years of good use".

It THEN gets kind of heavy into the dynamics of promotion, into the echelon of Imperial Guard, of which Tarkin had "fourty men... Lord Darth Vader... twelve men"... dressed up and spiffed out, living and working in plush enviornments, and kniving EACH OTHER as the enemy "worthy of effort". Sort of an Ozzell type-of attitude. The book makes further note that "Imperial Guards are allowed liquor and women."

It closes with words on retirement, even mentioning tales that speak of clones living as individuals, with names, outside the Empire's influence. "For the most part, however, Imperial Stormtroopers remain loyal 'lifers' dedicated to the preposition that the only good alien is a dead one".

Great thread!
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Old 03-07-2006, 08:33 AM   #110
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It seems pretty "Roman" in attitude when one thinks about it, maybe even Spartan, in the way that their soldiers had a lot of benefits..if they survived the combat anyway!

Still, I think the EU has the blessing that they have talented writers going for it.

Kurgan, you definately have the attitude of a pro-debater, that's for sure. Ever thought of going into politics?


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Old 03-07-2006, 05:01 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flowing Force
snip
You're right, I hadn't thought about that, but reading your post did recapture for me the "exciting mystery" of not knowing all this "huge Star Wars backstory" that was merely hinted at in the classic trilogy. The disappointment for me was that there was a time when I really thought that Lucas had it "all planned out in his head" about the Clone Wars and everything. Then it turns out he only had bits and pieces and we basically saw all those bits and pieces in the classic trilogy, with what little scraps were left, in the scripts and novelisations. Read the prologue to "Star Wars: From the Adventures of Luke Skywalker." That's basically it! What a tease.

Lucas's method was essentially to make it up as he went along. Beyond the huge, crammed together plot of the first movie, he had only a basic outline of the other two movies, which were originally part of the first one, which is why ROTJ felt so rushed and we got recycled padding like a second Death Star.

The Prequels did end up containing some unused concepts from earlier times, like Mace Windu (Mace Windy, from Windy, one of Starkiller's sons), Utapau (Tatooine), and some of the vehicles (the Republic Turbo Tank was a smaller Rebel vehicle meant for Hoth), etc. But a lot was changed and essentially the whole thing re-imagined.

That article you cited (the one I was talking about, thanks!) sounds like the author was given total freedom to write it up, since they figured this info would never be covered in the movies, and it really wasn't, until AOTC. Lucas always talked about making "three trilogies" then changed his mind and said that he really only meant two (and I suppose you could say that the first trilogy was really two trilogies, but he badly articulated it, because in interview after interview he made it sound like 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 films, not 6). When he was making ESB he had no assurance that the series would be as big as it was. Sure, Star Wars was a runaway success despite going over budget and giving him a heart attack, but sequels always did poorly compared to the original after the opening weekend, so it was a gamble.

Anyway, from the article it really sounds like they were aiming for some kind of Sardukar type lifestyle for these guys. They were supposed to be hard trained for ultimate loyalty and brutality. The EU picked this up and gave us the Star Wars equivalent of Dune's "Prison Planet" (Selusa Secundus where the Sardukar were trained), "Carida." The stormtroopers may have been clones (or clones in the metaphorical sense) but they were brainwashed and tried like steel to be killers, etc.

Anyway, that was my impression, not raised on milk and honey in a clean white world of a high tech school by soft spoken tai chi gray aliens.

The trouble with the EU is that the position of LucasFilm is that it IS canon. It's part of the overall continuity of Star Wars. They want us to buy every novel, comic, game, and watch every cartoon, as well as the movies. It's in their best interest if they say it's part of the "real story" of Star Wars. But what are they going to do with Lucas when he creates a story that conflicts with 75%-90% of what's already been established "no George, no, you cannot make another million! You can't control your own franchise anymore with your crazy ideas!" So we have it like this. And Lucas talks about how the stories are seperate, but then he also says they "intrude on my stories" so he's really having it both ways. He gets the freedom to do whatever he wants, and his stories are the real deal, and everybody else just plays along. It's not George's job to make sure that X and Y source flow together in harmony, so somebody else tries to do it.

Many fans have tried, many fans love to work at it, that's cool. I'm just saying if you go back to the older sources, you're bound to come up with questions that just can't be answered by the films. That's why we have retcons. Anymore I just don't even bother with the other stories, but I'm still left with contradictions between the movies. So one can try to use their imagination to figure it out, or read some hired writer's interpretation of how it should all fit together.

The trouble is, does the EU actually have any good stories that seem true to the spirit of Star Wars? Or are they all just trying to make a fast buck spending their time one-upping the movies, mary sueing and fixing all of George's plot holes in a haphazard fashion?

As for my debater skillz, I never did debate in school. I've found that I'm just not very good with improv. I get flustered in public or can't find the right words. It's far easier to write. I did speech and I do fine with prepared material. If I were president I'd fit right in with the speech writers and teleprompters, heh, yeah right.

***

Prime, I'm just curious, but I've never seen anything about Stormtroopers being recruited in the EU, at least nothing that was written since the time of the prequels. Can you point me to any sources post 2002 that indicate as much? I'm not calling you a liar, just curious. Lucas made it sound like they forced some guys into service later on, but nothing about voluntary enlistment. Where I think the voluntary part comes in is with the OFFICERS. In Sci Fi it's often forgotten (thanks in large part to Star Trek), that people who go to "academies" are officers. People always act like Luke was going to become a Stormtrooper, as was Biggs and Han Solo. That they were going to "the academy" sounds like either the Imperial Officer school or some kind of Merchant Marine (the Empire was nationalizing commerce, so they need not have been true military). And they use this to "prove" that Stormtroopers are not clones in the Imperial era.

You could have your all cloned corps of Stormtroopers and still have recruited officers. The sticky part comes in with the idea that anybody can wear the armor. That the armor is just a "uniform." But I think it's clear from the material we have now that the Stormtroopers are mostly clones from different templates but also from Jango Fett, in the time of the Classic Trilogy, with a few conscripts mixed in. The officers we don't know about, but we assume they're just guys who've been trained and joined voluntarily, not slaves, prisoners or shanghaied men. All those "Join the Empire!" posters from the later 80's, early 90's aren't canon, after all, are they? But if you've got a recent source that says otherwise I'd love to see it.

Each planet I would think, would have their own defenses, that includes a "planetary guard" (like a national guard, writ large), a kind of "coast guard" (some ships to patrol their orbit), a police force, guards for their dignitaries, etc. Each planet probably has their own laws. I wouldn't be surprised if some had a draft at times, while others it might be completely voluntary. Others might be planets of soldiers (everyone serves their time). Or it might be a mixture like on our planet. Others (like Naboo) might be so-called "peaceful worlds" that despise the idea of a military (of course even on Naboo you had the "warrior" Gungans... though I don't know if they even had representation in the Senate before Jar Jar joined up, which means they were very strongly isolationist before that!). What would a local militia be like? I can see them defending their own planet. Contributing troops to help protect the Republic is one thing, but would these guys get handed Clonetrooper armor and sent in behind the nearest Jedi? Interesting idea, but how would it work with Order 66?


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Old 03-08-2006, 11:31 AM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Prime, I'm just curious, but I've never seen anything about Stormtroopers being recruited in the EU, at least nothing that was written since the time of the prequels. Can you point me to any sources post 2002 that indicate as much?
Sorry, I wasn't refering adding to the stormtroopers ranks. There are stories in the EU where clone troopers trained local populations to fight (guerilla tactics, weapons training, whatever) against the CIS. They weren't training them to be clone troopers (obviously), just regular soldiers. The Cestus Deception is one example where this happens.

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Old 03-08-2006, 12:19 PM   #113
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Ummmmmm...

Not quite sure why I read only the word "snip" in the quoted-text box that begins your post, Kurgan, but I'm glad to know I inspired new thought, none-the-less!

Thanks again for adding such nuggets of detail, making the post informative and yet concise... I really know little about EU, and even some of the history you offer is new to me.

Quote:
Anyway, that was my impression, not raised on milk and honey in a clean white world of a high tech school by soft spoken tai chi gray aliens.
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!! I laughed my a5s off when I read that! So true, so true! Though I DO actually LOVE all of the Kamino Cloning Facility scenes. I never thought of the methods as Pollitically Correct, though I can see how sterile it all seems-- especially after rereading the rough-and-tough you-better-fr!gg!n-be-scared descriptions from the magazine that I quoted from, in the above post. Like Han no longer shooting Greedo "in cold blood", or how certain scenes have been edited to show less laser-to-body impact on those unfortunate Imperial officers in the Death Star.

Quote:
Anymore I just don't even bother with the other stories, but I'm still left with contradictions between the movies.
Yeah... there came to be quite a few contradictions between the films and the Expanded Universe. I consider myself to have gone quite deeply in thought and spirit into the films, and I'd love to hear of any contradictions or questions you may have regarding them exclusively. I actually have a great track-record for explaining the seemingly unexplainable within the Star Wars films.

Quote:
What would a local militia be like? I can see them defending their own planet. Contributing troops to help protect the Republic is one thing, but would these guys get handed Clonetrooper armor and sent in behind the nearest Jedi? Interesting idea, but how would it work with Order 66?
I agree that there probably is (or was) a local militia for each star system. There's probably a way "into" a stormtrooper uniform after so-many years of service in the local force, or something like that... assuming they DO take recruits, that is. I'm figuring that the Empire may have used recruitment, though perhaps the Republic would not... I don't really know. The comparison in numbers between clones availible and droids availible is staggering... I've not read any such stastics, myself, except for here on the thead, but the question of how the Republic supplimented it's army IS a good one, for the few million troops mentioned in the films doesn't seem to be adequate. My theroy, I guess, is that the potential story lines of Star Wars are SO-O-O-O-O very many in number that the films can only follow a very few threads. One of those threads was that of Obi Wan, who personally discovered the order for a clone army, and who then brought this pivitol plot-element to the attention of the Jedi Council, and so-forth. But there may well have been OTHER cloning facilities, and OTHER sources of aquiring galactic grunt-power... we just don't know of them because they're too irrelivant from the threads of the films. So there may very well be much MORE than just a couple of million Republic Troopers to fight the clone wars... AS WELL as there being other potential ways for the Empire to get Stormtroopers.

Quote:
Lucas always talked about making "three trilogies" then changed his mind and said that he really only meant two...
Ahhhh... the days when there was to be nine films... how sweetly I savor the memories... I remember the shock and disbelief when I first read the interview from a reliable magazine that he was axeing the last trilogy from the roster... It's like the "Where were you when Kennedy was shot?" Question for ME, I guess. However, I still harbor the embers of hope that the genius himself has schemed this belief amongst us that there will be no more films. George Lucas has amazed me throughout time in literally countless ways... BEGINING a story in it's middle, resulting in SUCH a burning interest to delve into the history of that story some 20 years later... Or how he prepared his OWN film-making team AS WELL as the public at large for the new trilogy by creating the "Special Edition", or holding back from releasing the original trilogy on DVD all these years so as to resurge public interest in Star Wars just before the theatrical release of the "final" film... the list is actually endless, in my mind.

My point?

That I have no douts in my mind of the secretive, scheming nature of George Lucas. Many of the Star Wars youth may not know of this side to George Lucas, as there are now, like, 6 or 7 times as many magazines on the market, a slew of entertainment-related shows on TV, and a zillion websites on an internet that-- for the first half of the story's production-- hardly even existed at all. But I remember...

I remember the level of secrecy... the smokescreens, and the misleading nature of some "official" reports or interveiws...

One day, years from now, when film-making is ready to make it's next big breakthrough, and making a phenominal new trilogy is not going to wear-out the aging man, George Lucas may yet again surprise us, with a last laugh, and one big final hoo-hah for us all.
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Old 03-27-2006, 07:03 PM   #114
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I would vote stormtrooper


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Old 03-29-2006, 09:09 AM   #115
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WHICH brings us back to the original topic of the thread... though I must admit I love what this thread has become.

Stormtroopers were a FANTASY to me, I'm telling you. As a kid, I mean... but really. I absolutely loved them.

As an adult, I was stoked to see the Boba/Jango Style of the clone helmets, combined with the Ol' Tyme Stormtrooper Style.

But when Episode III came out, I was completely hammered by the new Trooper designs. They are-- to me-- the greatest of an already great thing. They embody the Ol' Tyme feel even MORESO than the original clones... plus the coloring... I just love them.

Though I admit...

I have absolutely no clue what to call them... Republic Clone Troopers, or Imperial Stormtroopers... OR, perhaps, something else I haven't thought of, too, I suppose. (Only a Sith deals in absolutes)
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Old 04-19-2006, 05:34 PM   #116
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EPISODE 3 CLONES!!!

sorry. I like the clones better. They look cooler, and they sound cooler.


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Old 04-21-2006, 12:17 PM   #117
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I am going to have to side with Stormtroopers... they are classic!!
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Old 04-21-2006, 09:51 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
The best Stormtroopers we've seen in the classic trilogy are the ones that go to Tatooine to look for the droids. We don't see a single one of them killed, but granted, we don't see most of their "battles." They were the best equipped and seemed the most elite.
Maybe their the hasbin remnenets of the Clone wars arc troopers.
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Old 04-23-2006, 06:29 PM   #119
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They'd be the physical equivalent of 60 year old men by this time, though. Why would they be more elite than "fresh" clones or conscripts in their 20's?


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Old 04-23-2006, 07:59 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
They'd be the physical equivalent of 60 year old men by this time, though. Why would they be more elite than "fresh" clones or conscripts in their 20's?
Plus most of those Sandtroopers weren't clones; that unit was made up of mostly recruits. And none of them sounded like Jango on top of it.

It's safe to say that none of the Imperial troops seen in the OT were part of the first batches of clones.
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