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Old 09-11-2005, 09:23 AM   #41
DarthMuffin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
No, it seems you're talking about the fight between a number of Jedi and droids. That is not the Battle of Geonosis... it is the conflict that sparked the massive battle we know as the Battle of Geonosis. But I fail to see why you would be talking about it, because that's not even where the battle in the game takes place.
We're not talking about where battles take place. You do realize that there is a "conflict" between Jedi and droids in the arena. This conflick happens to be a battle. A small battle indeed, but a battle nonetheless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
Work FOR the army is right. The Jedi are not IN the army, they work FOR it.



Pledge their help to the Republic is one thing. The Separatist factions actually agreed to compile all their forces into one big Confederacy of Independent Systems. The Jedi never pledged such a thing.
From Star Wars Revenge of the Sith
Chapter I : Anakin and Obi-Wan
Bottom of p.18 in the hardcover edition

"This is Obi-Wan Kenobi:
[...]
Jedi Master. General in the Grand Army of the Republic. Member of the Jedi Council. "

That says it all.


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Old 09-11-2005, 11:32 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth54
We're not talking about where battles take place. You do realize that there is a "conflict" between Jedi and droids in the arena. This conflick happens to be a battle. A small battle indeed, but a battle nonetheless.
Not part of the Battle of Geonosis though.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth54
From Star Wars Revenge of the Sith
Chapter I : Anakin and Obi-Wan
Bottom of p.18 in the hardcover edition

"This is Obi-Wan Kenobi:
[...]
Jedi Master. General in the Grand Army of the Republic. Member of the Jedi Council. "

That says it all.
Here's what the official site has to say:

"The Clone Wars were a trying time for the Jedi. They transformed from an order of peacekeepers to military commanders, serving as battlefield generals for the Republic's new clone army."

So no, my definition they are NOT actually IN the Grand Army.
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Old 09-11-2005, 12:16 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252

"The Clone Wars were a trying time for the Jedi. They transformed from an order of peacekeepers to military commanders, serving as battlefield generals for the Republic's new clone army."
You sayed it yourself: servings as generals FOR the Republic's new clone army, so, the actually mean they are part of the army.

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Old 09-11-2005, 12:24 PM   #44
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I agree with you, TK'... Of General, Kenobi only had the titer... He didn't have the abilities of an Army's officer...
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Old 09-11-2005, 12:26 PM   #45
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Both the jedi and the clones served the Republic. Ultimately, however, the Jedi were loyal to the Force itself, and not answerable to the Supreme Chancellor. Furthermore, if the Jedi were formally in the army, it seems to me that it would have been difficult to order clone troopers to execute someone who was technically in the army with them. Officially, Order 66 identified the Jedi as traitors, and frankly, identifying a hundreds of generals as traitors would be problematic in any real-life army. On the other hand, identifying hundreds of military advisors, outside the military, would possibly be less problematic. Just my two cents.
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Old 09-11-2005, 12:28 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
"The Clone Wars were a trying time for the Jedi. They transformed from an order of peacekeepers to military commanders, serving as battlefield generals for the Republic's new clone army."

So no, my definition they are NOT actually IN the Grand Army.
I'm sorry, but I can't follow you here. The website says that they serve the army, as battlefield generals and you still think they're not in the army???

Quote:
Originally Posted by master_skywalke
You sayed it yourself: servings as generals FOR the Republic's new clone army, so, the actually mean they are part of the army.
Exactly.

The official novel says they're in the army. The official website says they are the generals of the army.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
Not part of the Battle of Geonosis though.
Very well. Lets call it the Battle of the Geonosis Arena.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leviathan
I agree with you, TK'... Of General, Kenobi only had the titer... He didn't have the abilities of an Army's officer...
So everyone calls him general, he fights in the front lines with clones and has a full battalion under his command, but no, he's not a general. [/sarcasm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by boinga 1
Officially, Order 66 identified the Jedi as traitors, and frankly, identifying a hundreds of generals as traitors would be problematic in any real-life army. On the other hand, identifying hundreds of military advisors, outside the military, would possibly be less problematic.
This is not real life. This is Star Wars. And it goes perfectly well with palpatine's plot to "purify" the galaxie of all the Jedi. He used them as battlefield generals (to use what TK got from an official source) so that many of them would die. He killed the rest of them.


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Last edited by Darth54; 09-11-2005 at 12:43 PM.
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Old 09-11-2005, 10:35 PM   #47
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I fail to see why just because someone is serving as a general it makes them automatically an official member of the army. That's not how it works. I mean, that would be like saying that the Wookiees are also part of the Grand Army because they served the Republic in the Clone Wars. After all, they were barking out orders to the clones on the beach, so they clearly had command over them. And if they are in a position like that they must be in the army... right? Wrong.

And like boinga said, you can't just completely remove the chain of command of an army and then have everything proceed on as normal as it did. This is because the Jedi are just advisors, and when it comes down to it, who's really in charge is Palpatine and the Clone Commanders.

Also, go to the official site and check out the entries for the Jedi. It says their affiliation is the Jedi Order, not the Galactic Republic, which is what it says for the Clone Troopers.

So I return to my original point, which is that having Jedi playable in the Grand Army is incorrect.
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Old 09-12-2005, 08:12 AM   #48
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yes the Jedi Order is a separate group from the Republic itself. They work independently from each other - the Jedi don't become involved in politics and the Republic only uses Jedi as diplomats and peacemakers.

on the topic of not having Jedi playable, i disagree. Wasting droids with a rifle is cool, but i feel that i just carry the team by taking out hundreds of rebels and taking cp's. Being rewarded by being able to step into the boots of a hero like Darth or Luke is great. - a good incentive.

but i can see where u are coming from with the idea that they should be AI controlled.


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Qui-Gon Jinn (gesturing to nudge Watto's mind): "I don't have anything else, but credits will do fine."
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Qui-Gon Jinn (nudging harder): "Credits will do fine."
Watto: "No, they won't! What, you think you're some kind of Jedi, waving your hand around like that? I'm a Toydarian! Mind tricks don't work on me, only money!"

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Old 09-12-2005, 04:22 PM   #49
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There's better ways or rewarding players than having them compete with their own team to get the Jedi. Really, that's not encouraging teamwork at all - it's encouraging players to whore the tanks to get more kills than everyone else, or even playing as crappy as possible (the server owner can even set it so the worst player gets the Jedi, like a handicap).

Look at BF2 for example: you can advance through ranks, unlock weapons, earn awards and medals, etc. and gain command over lower-ranking players through combat and teamwork. And this stuff is permanent; it doesn't just go away when the life bar is drained.

And personally, I think that in a military game, you should be rewarded like you would in the military. I mean, when was the last time a Clone Trooper was promoted by making him a Jedi?
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Old 09-12-2005, 04:45 PM   #50
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When was the last time you saw a normal clone soldier just hopping into a Gunship or a tank? In reality only pilots would be able to use them. The clone trooper doesn't become a Jedi, the Jedi just enters the battlefield.
I think the heroes are really more a reward for singleplayer not multiplayer, from what you said Jedi seem to go better in the singleplayer mode.



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Old 09-12-2005, 07:57 PM   #51
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Clones are not one with the force.



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Old 09-12-2005, 08:04 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
There's better ways or rewarding players than having them compete with their own team to get the Jedi. Really, that's not encouraging teamwork at all - it's encouraging players to whore the tanks to get more kills than everyone else, or even playing as crappy as possible (the server owner can even set it so the worst player gets the Jedi, like a handicap).

Look at BF2 for example: you can advance through ranks, unlock weapons, earn awards and medals, etc. and gain command over lower-ranking players through combat and teamwork. And this stuff is permanent; it doesn't just go away when the life bar is drained.
I have to agree with you here. I think the system in Bfield 2 is quite simply awesome. It would surely improve Bfront if we could have something similar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
And personally, I think that in a military game, you should be rewarded like you would in the military. I mean, when was the last time a Clone Trooper was promoted by making him a Jedi?
Like MachineCult said.

About the general debate we had :

For our own sanity, I'll leave it there. This is due to 2 things :

1. We could likely persue this arguments-throwing contest for days, because both you and I have deeply entrenched viewpoints and we stick to our ideas (which is good).
2. You have to admit that the quality of the debate deteriorated over the last posts. You stick to the website, I stick to the book; that's it.

That surely doesn't mean I accept your opinions as true, however. I just think we're going nowhere, and it's pointless to continue. Whatever I quote from the book, you'll just stick to your organizations thing from website.

To the thread starter : sorry for hijaking the topic I just couldn't stand by and watch TK whine again without doing anything


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Old 09-12-2005, 08:08 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MachineCult
When was the last time you saw a normal clone soldier just hopping into a Gunship or a tank? In reality only pilots would be able to use them.
I fail to see how that relates at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MachineCult
The clone trooper doesn't become a Jedi, the Jedi just enters the battlefield.
As you can see in those videos someone posted in another thread, once a clone player hits a certain goal, a question pops up if they want to play as a Jedi, and the player answers yes or no. If yes, the player goes from clone to Jedi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MachineCult
I think the heroes are really more a reward for singleplayer not multiplayer, from what you said Jedi seem to go better in the singleplayer mode.
It would be fine if they were only playable in SP, but no, they're also going to be just as big in MP.

Oh and Darth54, there's an unwritten rule that the OS overrides anything any book says. Sorry if you didn't know until now...
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Old 09-12-2005, 08:23 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
I fail to see how that relates at all.
He probably means that a rookie foot soldier wouldn't be allowed to play with a B52, and that we shouldn't really consider Bfront's gameplay as "militarily correct".

Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
As you can see in those videos someone posted in another thread, once a clone player hits a certain goal, a question pops up if they want to play as a Jedi, and the player answers yes or no. If yes, the player goes from clone to Jedi.
He meant that the clone himself doesn't become the Jedi. The player does. He said that because you used the word "promoted". Of course that changes absolutely nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
Oh and Darth54, there's an unwritten rule that the OS overrides anything any book says. Sorry if you didn't know until now...
Unwritten? So you can't say it's true, and I can't accept it


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Old 09-13-2005, 05:09 PM   #55
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Thankyou Darth54, i'm not always very good at getting my point across...



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Old 09-13-2005, 05:16 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Darth54
He probably means that a rookie foot soldier wouldn't be allowed to play with a B52, and that we shouldn't really consider Bfront's gameplay as "militarily correct".
Absolute correctness in a game isn't possible. I mean, even BF2 isn't entirely correct, because being hit by a single bullet, even if it just grazes you, would knock you to the ground. However, just because you can't get absolute perfection is no excuse not to try to get it as correct as possible.

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Unwritten? So you can't say it's true, and I can't accept it
Well, it is true, no matter if you accept it or not.
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Old 09-13-2005, 05:51 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
Absolute correctness in a game isn't possible. I mean, even BF2 isn't entirely correct, because being hit by a single bullet, even if it just grazes you, would knock you to the ground.
...and you can revive anyone with a defibrillator

That being said, I really miss a "real" medic class in Bfront (not some pilot bull****). I like playing as a medic in BField because it's really a different gameplay. In Bfront, all the classes exist to deal damage (except, of course, the pilot who is some sort of jack-of-all trade monster).

Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
Well, it is true, no matter if you accept it or not.
Prove it


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Old 09-13-2005, 07:00 PM   #58
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...and you can revive anyone with a defibrillator
Ahaha, yeah.

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Originally Posted by Darth54
That being said, I really miss a "real" medic class in Bfront (not some pilot bull****). I like playing as a medic in BField because it's really a different gameplay. In Bfront, all the classes exist to deal damage (except, of course, the pilot who is some sort of jack-of-all trade monster).
That's another thing BF2 misses... a medic class (or I guess a repairman for CIS). It would be nice if it was like in BF2, where you can sometimes be revived when you go down. Of course, it would be better to use something more like the bacta healer in Republic Commando...

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Prove it
Because the books often differ from the movies, but the OS is very reliable in that it's true to the movies.
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Old 09-13-2005, 11:22 PM   #59
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Barbossa: So what now, Jack Sparrow ? Will it be it two immortals locked in an epic battle until Judgment Day and trumpets sound? Hmm?

Jack : Or you could surrender.
This really reminds me of this debate. Carry on!
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Old 09-14-2005, 11:46 AM   #60
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Come on, stop this useless argument and use your time on something more productiv, like finding out what a Detpack is and why these to both have it.



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Han Solo
PA1=DL44 blaster
PA2=Fusion cutter
SA1=Detpack
SA2=Rally (Defense buff)
M= Utapau, Polis Massa

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PA1=E-3 Blaster Rifle
PA2=Flamethrower
SA1=Wrist Rocket
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M= Kashyyyk, Utapau, Mygeeto, Felucia, Yavin, Jabb'a Palace
Any one know what a Detpack is?


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Old 09-14-2005, 04:15 PM   #61
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Detpack I'm assuming is a time bomb like the Wookiee Smuggler's.
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Old 09-14-2005, 05:27 PM   #62
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Or maybe you can remotly detonate it instead of waiting for a countdown. But either way it's probably going to be some sort of explosive.


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Old 09-14-2005, 06:00 PM   #63
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With a name like "detpack", it has better be an explosive.

I guess it's remotly detonated, since it would have been called time bomb otherwise (and we already have mines).


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Old 09-15-2005, 04:16 AM   #64
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The Detpack will definatly be an remote explosive, just remember the Explosives Experts in JA Siege, they even had DETPACKS, so i dunno why SWBF2 and JAS Detpacks should be different to each other cause its both Star Wars
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Old 09-15-2005, 06:37 AM   #65
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Maybe he spelt 'jetpack' wrong.. lol


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Old 09-15-2005, 07:15 AM   #66
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That would only be possible if Boba was the only Hero with the "D"etpack, but i never saw Harrison Ford in the Movies with a Jetpack so i dont think theres anything spelled wrong :-P
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Old 09-15-2005, 07:38 AM   #67
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Someone will mod it. Anyway, heros should be amusing, but yeah, doesn't quite encourage teamwork. Although higher ranks getting to use them ain't a problem IMHO, as mentioned, it'd be like getting l33t weapons in Battlefireld 2.


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Old 09-15-2005, 07:59 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HordaK
The Detpack will definatly be an remote explosive, just remember the Explosives Experts in JA Siege, they even had DETPACKS, so i dunno why SWBF2 and JAS Detpacks should be different to each other cause its both Star Wars
Uh... when was the last time we knew LucasArts to copy stuff from one of their games to the next, just because they're both Star Wars?
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Old 09-15-2005, 09:27 AM   #69
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well watch at SWBF 2 and answer the question urself, LA is even copiing enough stuff from SWBF1, like the crappy engine etc. u might say now "yes because its a sequel". Then i would answer "A Sequel is not a reason to copy Stuff from the prequel" except the story and characters of course like in other Game Series..And u can just look a JK2 and JA.. even there they copied stuff like the weapons, cause they are Star Wars Weapons. And a Detpack is a Detpack i think it doesnt matter if its in SWBF or JA. Im Pretty sure its nearly the same like in JA, but lets see what the Release Version will show us
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Old 09-15-2005, 12:07 PM   #70
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Since the people are rushed it's probably just going to be a Wookiee timebomb thats remotely activated instead of having a countdown timer


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Old 09-15-2005, 03:53 PM   #71
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Quote:
Maybe he spelt 'jetpack' wrong.. lol
No I didn't spell it wrong, it's Detpack.
Probably a explosive. Det=Detonation / Pack=well..um..a pack.


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Old 09-15-2005, 06:23 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HordaK
And u can just look a JK2 and JA.. even there they copied stuff like the weapons, cause they are Star Wars Weapons.
They didn't copy the weapons because they're SW weapons. JA is like... one year after JO? It's only normal for the galaxy's inhabitants to use similar weaponry after just one year or so. TSL didn't copy JO/JA weaps.


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Old 09-15-2005, 07:09 PM   #73
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Maybe the developers improved the fire detection. Shoot a jetpack and watch the fuel explode.



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Old 09-16-2005, 03:37 AM   #74
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then it would be an "explosive Jetpack" and not a "Detpack, if i missunderstood u im Sorry :-)
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Old 09-16-2005, 07:08 PM   #75
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I know, its a sucide bomber . The Detpack unit. Run into a group of units and explode. As long as you kill another unit, its even, if you kill 2 or more, its worth it.

I could be wrong about the new unit, but then it would have to be short for: Detergent Pack. How else would the Imperials keep their armor shiny white ? Maybe it has added bleach.



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Old 09-17-2005, 03:07 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zerted
I know, its a sucide bomber . The Detpack unit. Run into a group of units and explode. As long as you kill another unit, its even, if you kill 2 or more, its worth it.

I could be wrong about the new unit, but then it would have to be short for: Detergent Pack. How else would the Imperials keep their armor shiny white ? Maybe it has added bleach.
Remember thats its Boba and Han that have it. I dont see them as sucide bomber.


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Old 09-17-2005, 06:55 AM   #77
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It's a Detpack, Detonation pack they were on Return of the Jedi, it's a remotely detonated explosive device. End topic.



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Old 09-17-2005, 10:18 PM   #78
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Nothing wrong with a few jokes, which all my posts in this topic have been.



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Old 09-18-2005, 03:33 AM   #79
HordaK
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Yes it would have saved us from many romantic **** in the orig, Triology if Harrison Ford had played a Suicide Bomber instead of Han Solo the way he did
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Old 09-18-2005, 08:01 AM   #80
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So what's saved us from romatic crap in the prequel trilogy which was, on a rough guess, 10 000% worse?

Anyone got a suicide gunship?? "For the GLA!!!"


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