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Old 09-09-2005, 03:28 AM   #1
Char Ell
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Yoda's ability to handle force lightning attacks

I searched this forum but didn't find any previous posts about this topic so...

Does anyone know the specific force power Yoda used when Darth Sidious attacked him with force lightning? I know there is a force absorb power in games like Jedi Knight but is this the specific power that Yoda uses? In the movies, Yoda seems to be the only Jedi who can handle force lightning attacks with his bare hands. The other Jedi (Obi-wan and Mace) rely on their lightsabers.


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Old 09-09-2005, 04:31 AM   #2
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i think it is force absorb. why mace and obi-wan didn't use it, who knows? maybe it's a difficult thing to master, or maybe mace and obi just prefer using their lightsabers.
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Old 09-09-2005, 05:55 PM   #3
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I think it hurts if you use your hands, So that's probably why they prefer lightsabers. =/

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Old 09-10-2005, 10:01 AM   #4
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Anyway, I think Force Lightning "hurts" you whether you use Force Absorb or your light-saber... In both cases, employing one of these means must be tiring...
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Old 09-10-2005, 12:37 PM   #5
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Hmm, it didn't seem to bother Obi-Wan when he blocked it with his saber. He did it one handed with no major signs of exertion, seemed like a simple enough trick.

If Lightning is a "Sith Power" how did the Jedi know how to counter it? I guess they were just quick on their feet.


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Old 09-11-2005, 02:16 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leviathan
Anyway, I think Force Lightning "hurts" you whether you use Force Absorb or your light-saber... In both cases, employing one of these means must be tiring...
That is really what I was wondering about. In AotC, Yoda seems to deflect Dooku's force lightning attack at first, using his hands, and then switches to absorbing during Dooku's final attack. To me it appeared like he was using the attack's energy to supercharge his batteries. Dooku finally figures out his lightning isn't working and then Yoda goes all whirling dervish on Dooku. But in RotS, Yoda doesn't seem to handle Sidious' force lightning attack as well as Dooku's. Maybe it's just because Sidious is so much more powerful than Dooku was but it did seem like Yoda didn't have much in the tank after the force explosion between him and Sidious.


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Old 09-11-2005, 11:29 AM   #7
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A rumour specifies that Yoda was affected by the death of some many Jedi, following Order 66's broadcast. Consequently, he wasn't as effective against Sidious as in previous fights...
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Old 09-13-2005, 12:17 PM   #8
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Hey, how about that! A specific rumor

I can understand Yoda's being affected by the deaths of so many of his fellow Jedi. But weren't a lot of Jedi killed at the Battle of Geonosis? Why wasn't Yoda affected in the same manner then?


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Old 09-13-2005, 01:38 PM   #9
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I think you guessed all Jedi weren't killed on Geonosis... And you also must know that Yoda feels when a Jedi dies...
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Old 09-16-2005, 04:11 PM   #10
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I don't think there really was a precedent for Yoda's powers as seen in AOTC.

He does three things in that scene:

1) "absorbs" Dooku's lightning.

2) Throws lightning of his own.

3) "absorbs" the lightning again.

Notice the first instance many people interpreted it as he "caught" the thrown lightning and threw it back at Dooku, but notice what Dooku does.. he "blocks" it and sends it into the ceiling where it turns into flame! In the last instance he "absorbs" the energy and it doesn't go anywhere! As to the Force charging up his batteries, who knows, but I think that's forcing game mechanics on a movie made independantly.

At one point in the battle it also appears as if both Dooku and Yoda are firing bolts back and forth at each other (or the bolts are collecting in the center and glancing off each other).

This behavior doesn't jibe with anything in Jedi Outcast or Academy. It might be in some RPG someplace, but I figure they've modified it for game balance/challenge and it may not bear any relation to what we actually see onscreen. And why the different behavior with Palpatine/Yoda in the next movie? Who knows! Lucas has a habit of inventing new Jedi powers for each movie, as the plot or action dictates, so there you go. That some of the Prequel powers first appeared in games is fine, but that doesn't prove we can look to the games to explain how they all work.


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Old 09-17-2005, 11:34 AM   #11
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Yes, I agree that Yoda's displayed force abilities in AotC were unprecedented for the movies. And for the record I didn't intend to say that Yoda was using the same force absorb as found in JA or JO. It was just that how Yoda handled Dooku's force lightning attack seemed to be most like the Force Absorb power in those games. I guess this is just one of those things in the Star Wars movies that you have to figure out what it means on your own, or possibly look to the novelization of the movie to get more details than what the movie itself provides. But even with the novelizations you're only getting the author's spin on events as opposed to getting the info from the story's actual creator. Oh well, I thought it was a thought provoking question in any case


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Old 09-17-2005, 11:40 AM   #12
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Well sure, I guess if you had to pick a force power (or set of powers) that Yoda is using based on the games, then he's using Aborb, and then Lightning.

Dook is using Lightning, Push, and then some kind of blocking ability that doesn't exist in the games. And of course they both use Jump.

Dooku later uses grip in ROTS and maybe pull (to pull the stuff on top of Obi-Wan?). Though the ability to make stuff break and then fly towards your opponent is most akin to Force Throw in Jedi Knight (the first game; not to be confused with Saber Throw from JK2/JA).


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Old 10-14-2005, 03:56 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
2) Throws lightning of his own.
Although it would appear this way, Yoda does NOT throw lightning of his own making. He reverses the attack from Dooku which Dooku is forced to block. The attack then hits the ceiling and could have resulted in more injury to Anakin and Obi-Wan if debris had fallen on them. Yoda knows this and from that point on absorbs the attack but does not reverse it back on The Count. Please remember:

"A jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense. NEVER for attack." Master Yoda(Episode V)
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Old 10-14-2005, 04:30 PM   #14
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How do you KNOW though?

I always interpreted Yoda's ESB quote as his philosophy having changed after the fact (or possibly, that he was blatantly lying to Luke to achieve a certain result, as Obi-Wan did). Yoda also tells Luke that "wars make not one great." And yet this is the same Yoda who 24 odd years ago was an active participant in war. He was a general! And if you go by the Clone Wars series, he also fought on foot in the battles themselves on at least one occasion. Is he being hypocritical, or did the decades of hiding in exile on Dagobah give him a chance to reflect on and repent of his mistakes made during the prequel era?

The Jedi certainly DO use the force for attack in the prequels, and also in the Original Trilogy. And the ones that do are not limited to ones "skirting the Dark Side" like Anakin or Luke. Reference Force Pushes used on battle droids, Yoda force pushing Palpatine, etc.

Watch the scene with Yoda again carefully. There are shots were it certainly appears that he's throwing lightning of his own, not just in the famous "tossing it into the ceiling so it turns into fire" part.

Ways to interpret the contradictions without assuming that Yoda changed his philosophy or is lying to Luke could include:

1) Well the Jedi hold this ideal, but in practice it's pretty much never enforced. Ie: sort of like the US policy of not killing civilians in war. Or any religion that teaches its followers to avoid sinning.

2) Jedi are allowed to use the Force for attack, after your opponent throws the first punch (the most explicit example of this comes from the Jedi Knight game actually, but it seems somewhat logical with regards to Yoda's actions... as long as you attack second, you maintain the moral high ground, because it's "defense" even if it's still an attack. Of course this sounds like it's splitting hairs, but there you go. Yoda has had hundreds of years to cement his own understanding of the Force. Perhaps in his mind attacking second isn't really attacking, so it lets one off the hook.

Besides.. how is it more proper to use the Force to indirectly kill your opponent by guiding your saber to its target or blocking blaster bolts into his face, than to use a force choke, push, lightning, etc?

3) Yoda is just an imperfect guy. He tried not to attack, but his fury got the better of him. Think about it for a moment. Your former padawan, whom you trained, has now betrayed you, by turning to the Dark Side, and joining the Seperatists (betraying the Jedi's mandate to protect the Republic). He's overseen the massacre of Jedi Knights before your eyes. Not only that but he's shown extreme arrogance and disrespect to you by saying he's become more powerful, by using teachings the Jedi consider to be blasphemous (the Dark Side, though I'm not sure that Yoda realizes at this point that Dooku is a Sith) AND tried to kill him. So thus far he's given Yoda every reason to hate him, I can't blame the little guy if he got carried away. It may also be that the Lightning attack was so powerful, he feared he might be killed unless he responded in kind. The Jedi ideals may take a backseat to personal survival instinct.

Still, the teaching is what Jedi are supposed to do (see #1) even if sometimes they fail. This is a common religious parallel too. Just because people fail to live up to the higher teachings doesn't mean the teachings are false.

But still I say if you say that using the force to attack is impossible for a Jedi, then the Prequel films are one big staggering contradiction to that. It's not just the Yoda/Dooku battle, but virtually every scene with a Jedi in combat.


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Old 10-14-2005, 10:21 PM   #15
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Incapacitating an attacker is not attacking, it is defense.


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Old 10-15-2005, 12:09 AM   #16
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Fair enough, we've got examples of Jedi attacking people before they were attacked by them.

Or is "a percieved threat" enough? Sort of how modern police start shooting the instant they see a suspect with something that resembles a gun, because that's how they're trained?

Look, I'm not saying the Jedi aren't allowed to fight or kill, or that as police they aren't allowed to shoot first and ask questions later using their better judgement, etc. Rather I'm arguing about the reality of the pacifist ideals that Yoda spouts to Luke in ESB being read back into the Prequels. Prequel haters label these contradictions and proof that Lucas has forgotten what Star Wars is about, but I see it as quite a simple explanation.

Most likely there is a disconnect between Jedi idealism and actual practice. Notice how Mace Windu says "we're keepers of the peace, not soldiers" in AOTC. Qui Gon says in TPM "We can only protect you, we can't fight a war for you."

These statements seem to portray the Jedi as police or diplomats, not warriors. Combine these with Yoda's statements "Wars not make one great!" "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack" and "You will know, when you are calm.. at peace... passive"

Yet we see clearly in the prequels that they are fierce warriors, and participate (however unwillingly) in military action. We even have evidence of Jedi enjoying what they do (note Jedi like Obi-Wan and Kit Fisto smiling after they've pulled off some awesome move or about to kick somebody's a$$). Nothing wrong with that necessarily, but it goes to show that this rhetoric the Jedi spout does not jibe 100% with their actions.

That's okay. Honestly I think it makes them more "human" and more fallible to show that they, like may people throughout history, in fiction and in our modern reality, have on the one hand, what they believe to be better, truer, higher, and the ideal, and on the other hand what they actually do, for being expediency, monetary weakness, and not quite the heroes they dream of being. Makes for more interesting characters than if they were just two dimensional icons of perfection who lose only because the plot calls for it.

While we root for the Jedi, we can see how their downfall was played out. They had weaknesses, including apparently, a desire for combat ("damned fool idealistic crusade" anyone?) in a "just cause" and believing themselves to be the righteous defenders of liberty, despite corruption in their own ranks (Count Dooku, whom they couldn't believe would ever murder anyone; Anakin, despite not trusting him at various times they trained him as a Jedi and gave him a lot of freedom, which ended up putting him close to the Chanceller, they also let a hothead like Obi-Wan train him, the Padawan of the maverik Qui Gon Jinn, who also trained the traitor Dooku, incidentally!), etc.

It makes a lot of sense to divide the Force and all actions up into "dark" or "light" based on game balance, but I think in the movies its not that cut and dried. I think Lucas did this on purpose to show that the Jedi are not perfect or all knowing. They do what they think must be doing, by any means necessary. They believe they're right, but they are ultimately short-sighted. Their willingness to fight is actually what gets them all killed. That the movie portrays Yoda in a position of command rather than leading from the field is what gives him the edge to survive. If not for that, he would have been killed like the others. Obi-Wan simply got lucky (and in his elder years he says he doesn't believe in luck!)


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Old 10-15-2005, 07:04 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
....
While we root for the Jedi, we can see how their downfall was played out. They had weaknesses, including apparently, a desire for combat ("damned fool idealistic crusade" anyone?) in a "just cause" and believing themselves to be the righteous defenders of liberty, despite corruption in their own ranks (Count Dooku, whom they couldn't believe would ever murder anyone; Anakin, despite not trusting him at various times they trained him as a Jedi and gave him a lot of freedom, which ended up putting him close to the Chanceller, they also let a hothead like Obi-Wan train him, the Padawan of the maverik Qui Gon Jinn, who also trained the traitor Dooku, incidentally!), etc.
....
Actually Dooku trained Qui-Gon not other way around


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Old 10-15-2005, 12:56 PM   #18
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^^^
And you had to quote Kurgan's entire post to make that point? Would it not have been simpler and easier for those that read this thread to only quote the relevant part of Kurgan's post (the part you highlighted) and then made your statement about who trained who after that?


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Old 10-15-2005, 06:41 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryozan
Actually Dooku trained Qui-Gon not other way around

Whoops, my bad! I should have read over my post after writing!

And not to worry, I edited your post so quoted only the relevant part.


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Old 10-16-2005, 05:35 AM   #20
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Incapacitating an attacker is not attacking, it is defense.
Correct. A malicious attempt to MAIM or cause PHYSICAL HARM to another is considered an attack in this case. Yoda and the jedi use force push to stun or knock down their opponent. Not to maim or to cause actual death. Stopping your opponent from attacking you by using force push is NOT a malicious attack Kurgan. It is a self defense technique. Ask Lucas himself and I GUARANTEE you he would corroborate this. As for how do I know this Kurgan? I have books from many years ago before Lucas even started the prequels that asked if jedi were going to use dark powers in the prequel episodes. Lucas stated at that time that "jedi do not use the dark side for ANY reason." If Lucas says it, because he created this world, I accept it and do not question it.
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Old 10-17-2005, 11:28 AM   #21
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^^^
Umm, yeah. I'm sure Kurgan being who he is and all has George Lucas' personal phone number. He'll call George up and say somthing like, "Hey Georgy, what's up? Hey my man, I was wondering about the whole force push thing. Enquiring minds want to know, is a force push a malicious attack or a self-defense technique?"

IMHO, it all depends on how the force push is used. If one used force push to send one's opponent over the edge of a tall cliff, e.g. Darth Maul force pushing Obi-Wan into that exhaust tube in TPM, then I would consider that a malicious use of force power. But if one is in a situation where one would be killed unless killing one's opponent, then of course I would consider that self-defense, e.g. when Obi-Wan used force jump to escape the tube and force pull to get Qui Gonn's lightsaber and quickly eliminate Darth Maul.


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Old 10-17-2005, 04:30 PM   #22
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Force push on its own doesn't kill or injure Hai-Wan. Lightning on its' own injures at the very least. That is quite a difference.
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Old 10-18-2005, 02:03 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaze629
Correct. A malicious attempt to MAIM or cause PHYSICAL HARM to another is considered an attack in this case. Yoda and the jedi use force push to stun or knock down their opponent. Not to maim or to cause actual death. Stopping your opponent from attacking you by using force push is NOT a malicious attack Kurgan. It is a self defense technique. Ask Lucas himself and I GUARANTEE you he would corroborate this. As for how do I know this Kurgan? I have books from many years ago before Lucas even started the prequels that asked if jedi were going to use dark powers in the prequel episodes. Lucas stated at that time that "jedi do not use the dark side for ANY reason." If Lucas says it, because he created this world, I accept it and do not question it.
Blaze, I'd like to point out that killing your opponent is also self defense. The Jedi have no "Code Vs. Killing" (to put it in comic book terms) even if they claim to favor violence as a last resort.

Insightful commentary from stardestroyer.net's canon database(the part in quotation marks is G-level canon, referring to Luke's actions on Tatooine)
Quote:
Source: ROTJ novelization p.46

"It was a Jedi rule-of-thumb, but it took the soldiers in the second skiff by surprise: when outnumbered, attack. This drives the force of the enemy in toward himself."

The Force: Jedi knights are trained to be highly aggressive, despite Yoda's implication to the contrary. This is consistent with TPM, where Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon responded to the Viceroy's attempt upon their lives by immediately charging directly toward his control room in an attempt to kill him.
As for Lucas's comments on the Force from interviews from the past, that's all well and good, but how do you square that with what he has shown us ON SCREEN? According to him, this represents his "definitive vision" not some interview he gave in the past, insightful as it may have been otherwise.

And what is "maliciousness" anyway? Are all soldiers "malicious" towards their enemies? I think most of them are just trying to accomplish their mission while staying alive. They need not personally hate or seek to humiliate each and every opponent they come across. You're reading malicious intent into a certain Force Power. The notion that certain powers are automatically evil is primarily from the games, not the movies (though there is some support for it in the novels, I will admit, they're still trumped by the movies). Assuming that is an exact quote from Lucas, notice how he says "the dark side" not "won't be aggressive" or "won't use the Force for attack" etc. There's a huge difference! And when I'm watching the movies, there's no subtitle that pops up everytime somebody uses "the dark side" so there is certainly room to question. Has Lucas listed all the Jedi powers, telling us which ones are good and which ones are evil? Apparently only the games tell us this, and even then they're not always consistent (Mysteries of the Sith for example, has no Light or Dark Side, you can freely mix and match powers; Jedi Outcast splits it into light/dark in multiplayer except in regards to certain game modes like Holocron and Jedi Master, but mixes them in single player with no consequences; Jedi Academy has Kyle spewing the idea that each power is based on intent and no penalty is incurred for mixing supposedly "dark" and "light" powers together, only in multiplayer are you restricted to one side or the other).

And if Yoda can use lightning without malice, then it just goes to show that the power is not inherently evil. Otherwise it shows Yoda skirting the dark side (something, that in the EU novels btw, is apparently super common, but nevermind!).

Using Lucas as an appeal to authority is valid yes, but you have to show where he agrees with your interpretation, not simply say "well if I could talk to Lucas he'd agree with me!" The Flanneled One has not returned my calls, so I can only guess what he thinks of your ideas.


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Old 10-18-2005, 02:12 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaze629
Force push on its own doesn't kill or injure Hai-Wan. Lightning on its' own injures at the very least. That is quite a difference.
Say's you! Look at what Force Push does to Battle Droids (reference TPM). They not only fall over, they often break apart, and they don't get back up! Surely Battle Droids (made of metal) are not more fragile than soft flesh and blood...

Consider Yoda pushing Palpatine over his chair. Just because it didn't kill him doesn't mean it didn't hurt! Reference Dooku tossing Obi-Wan's body into a wall. Reference him tossing Anakin into a wall, etc. Even after Dooku cuts off Anakin's arm, his Push apparently leaves the youth unconscious. Now perhaps he simply passed out from the pain of the wound (despite other characters remaining conscious, despite pain, after lightsaber amputations), but nevermind.

Force push definatly hurts. That it doesn't hurt the hardy Jedi as much as it hurts a non-Jedi is besides the point. The same is true of Lightning or any other Force attack.

I can see it now, people are going to argue that since a "dark force user" uses the powers, they're not good examples. Likewise they'll say if Anakin, Luke or Mace Windu did something aggressive, it was because they were "skirting the dark side" (the idea of Windu skirting the dark side comes from the EU... apparently his lightsaber style "skirts the dark side" in fact!).

Cop-out?! I mean, is there any supposedly "pure" Jedi in the movies that you can point to who fights without engaging in aggressive action? The only Jedi I can think of who don't fight are the little kids, or the Librarian, etc. Everybody else who goes into battle commits aggression or is about to before they are struck down by somebody else first. So either the Jedi are all hypocrites, and there is no "pristine Jedi example" or perhaps this popular interpretation of Jedi is inaccurate, via the movies.

I will ask you though, is it only aggressive "use of the Force" that you're concerned about, or all aggression in general? Because if it's the latter it becomes even more problematic. Look at how the Jedi seek out battles, brandish their weapons in a threatening manner, take the first swing, etc.

Do the Jedi follow Just War Doctrine? How do we judge "maliciousness" with regards to combat? I could easily argue that Darth Maul, despite seeking confrontation with the Jedi, nevertheless was pursued and outnumbered, he had little choice but to fight once the sabers came on. Dooku as well wanted to leave, but the Jedi chased him and cornered him, again outnumbering him. What were his options, other than surrender or be killed?

Vader was in a position of power over Luke, but remember that Luke attacked his (unarmed) master, and then tried to harm him (Vader). Vader was seemingly overmatched most of the fight as well. Was he supposed to run for the elevator? Beg Palpatine for help against Luke?

Does a Jedi even have time to analyze the bigger picture while in a death struggle? That's why I question this "well his intention was ___." He may not have that luxury fighting for his life. When fighting inferiors (like Stormtroopers, Geonosians, Battle droids) the Jedi seem to have no qualms about using their abilities for mass slaughter.

Still, that's part of the philosophy of being a soldier. When you've got the opportunity, in a time of war, and you kill a bunch of enemy soldiers, that's regarded by most as "bravery" and "courage" etc. We're not talking about wandering around and randomly torturing civilians or executing unarmed prisoners here, just their conduct on the battlefield.


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Old 10-18-2005, 12:15 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
The Force: Jedi knights are trained to be highly aggressive, despite Yoda's implication to the contrary. This is consistent with TPM, where Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon responded to the Viceroy's attempt upon their lives by immediately charging directly toward his control room in an attempt to kill him.
Was their intent to kill the Viceroy, or mearly capture him?


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Originally Posted by Kurgan
And what is "maliciousness" anyway? Are all soldiers "malicious" towards their enemies? I think most of them are just trying to accomplish their mission while staying alive. They need not personally hate or seek to humiliate each and every opponent they come across. You're reading malicious intent into a certain Force Power. The notion that certain powers are automatically evil is primarily from the games, not the movies (though there is some support for it in the novels, I will admit, they're still trumped by the movies).
Well, several recent sources regarding the films have indicated that Force Lightning is actually the exclusive domain of the Sith, and is in fact called Sith Lightning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Assuming that is an exact quote from Lucas, notice how he says "the dark side" not "won't be aggressive" or "won't use the Force for attack" etc.
I think the whole "knowledge and defense and never to attack" line is taken too literally. I think what is being imparted on Luke is a philosphy that helps prevent a fall to the dark side. The use of the Force should not be used to attack/invade/destroy others in the general sense. All the instances of Force push and the like that I can think of were used when the Jedi was coming under attack from something. Since they are protecting themselves this would fall under using the the Force for defense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
There's a huge difference! And when I'm watching the movies, there's no subtitle that pops up everytime somebody uses "the dark side" so there is certainly room to question. Has Lucas listed all the Jedi powers, telling us which ones are good and which ones are evil?
I believe Force Lightning has been listed as a corruption of the Force and listed as a exclusive Sith/Dark Side power, in terms of the films anyway. The NJO of course allows everyone to use it in the name of justice and peace!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Apparently only the games tell us this, and even then they're not always consistent (Mysteries of the Sith for example, has no Light or Dark Side, you can freely mix and match powers; Jedi Outcast splits it into light/dark in multiplayer except in regards to certain game modes like Holocron and Jedi Master, but mixes them in single player with no consequences; Jedi Academy has Kyle spewing the idea that each power is based on intent and no penalty is incurred for mixing supposedly "dark" and "light" powers together, only in multiplayer are you restricted to one side or the other).
Of course, there are some sacrifices for gameplay, which needs to be kept in mind when including them in the analysis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
And if Yoda can use lightning without malice, then it just goes to show that the power is not inherently evil.
But it appears that Yoda doesn't use (i.e. create) Force Lightning at any point, he mearly deflects it. Both the Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith scripts state that Yoda deflected lightning used by the Sith:

AOTC:
YODA deflects Force lightning thrown at him by the enraged COUNT DOOKU.

ROTS:
The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA. YODA is deflecting the Sith Lord's lightning bolts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Otherwise it shows Yoda skirting the dark side (something, that in the EU novels btw, is apparently super common, but nevermind!).
Entirely too common, IMO.

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Old 10-18-2005, 12:58 PM   #26
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Some good stuff there for sure Kurgan. You asked: "What is maliciousness anyway?" That is a VERY good question actually. Let me go ahead and give examples of what most of us, I would think, consider to be "malicious" intent using the lightning and push powers as examples. Some of this ties into what Hai-Wan pointed out before and what you were saying about war and "rules of engagement" if you want to call it that.

If lightning is used to attack an opponent regardless of circumstance, I would think this falls into the "malicious" category as was the case with Dooku in Episode II and Sidious in Episode III(a few times lol). At the same time though, if someone uses force push on someone who is non-threatening, to knock them over a cliff to their death, this I would think is also considered to be a "malicious" act of course. If someone were to use force push to toss an object and impale someone else with it just because they felt like it, then chalk up another "malicious" act. In both of the push examples, the push did not actually do the killing. The fall did in the first example and the impaling object did in the second. But the force was used to assist in the killing so both are still "malicious" of course. Using the force as Yoda did in ROTS to knock Sidious back or to knock out the royal guards even, does not fall into the "malicious" category to me. The intent was to stun or incapacitate the opponent not to necessarily kill or injure. Did it hurt? It better have or Yoda would have been in BIG trouble LOL!!!!!

Kurgan you asked if it was "aggression in general" or "aggressive use of the force" that I was concerned about. My answer to that would be I am more concerned with aggressive use of the force more than anything else. To inflict death, permanent injury, or cruelty on someone is my main concern. I think that Yoda was telling Luke that to inflict these things through direct use of the force was what he had to train himself to not do under ANY circumstances. Take from this what you will.
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Old 10-18-2005, 07:04 PM   #27
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Question Question for you then... Blaze

So it would be okay for Yoda to just strangle Palpatine to death with his bare hands, but not okay for him to use force choke to accomplish the same goal?

(And if you want to go with intent, let's say in BOTH cases Yoda takes no pleasure in the act of killing, and thinks he's doing the galaxy "a favor" by removing this tyrant from existence.)

Just an example for clarification here.


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Old 10-18-2005, 07:18 PM   #28
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If it had come to that Kurgan, Yoda probably would have strangled him with his hands. Call "The Flanneled One" again LOL. Maybe he can answer that better than me.
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Old 10-18-2005, 07:29 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
Was their intent to kill the Viceroy, or mearly capture him?
Your guess is as good as mine. The author of the commentary above feels they were going to kill him. Would they be justified in doing so? After all, he was the one giving the orders to have them killed. Then again, they may have been able to just "arrest" him and commandeer the ship somehow. I can see them dismembering him if he for instance, drew a blaster as on them when they finally came into the control room.

Quote:
Well, several recent sources regarding the films have indicated that Force Lightning is actually the exclusive domain of the Sith, and is in fact called Sith Lightning.
Which would mean we have to throw out vast chunks of previously written sources which indicate that Lightning is a neutral power, that can be used by "Light" Jedi and Dark Jedi, not just Sith. If it was exclusively Sith, and no Sith have been seen for 1,000 years, then how did the Jedi know how to counter it so easily? (Other than Anakin the hothead of course!).

Quote:
I think the whole "knowledge and defense and never to attack" line is taken too literally. I think what is being imparted on Luke is a philosphy that helps prevent a fall to the dark side.
Fair enough. Most people are taking it to mean that to use the force in battle is the dark side, therefore whenever they see a Jedi using a Force power in battle they suddenly get this double standard, that it's not really aggressive or violent, but when the same thing is done by a Sith they call it the Dark Side (but they are unwilling to say that the Jedi doing the power is "skirting the darkside" unless it's Anakin).

Quote:
The use of the Force should not be used to attack/invade/destroy others in the general sense.
And yet all that the Jedi are is about using the Force to augment, enhance and facilitate their role as fighters. The fact is that the Jedi use violence to achieve their goals, and this necessarily means that the Force is used in the cause of violence. Is this right or wrong? You decide, but I think regardless people have this notion that "a Jedi would never do such a thing" when we have mountains of evidence to the contrary. Either the Jedi we're given are supposed to be "bad Jedi" or else their theory is inaccurate or incomplete.

Quote:
All the instances of Force push and the like that I can think of were used when the Jedi was coming under attack from something.
So you need to define "coming under attack." Does this mean "enemy rushing towards you about to strike?" "Somebody with a weapon in the room?" "Somebody who is a threat to the peace?" "Somebody who's an enemy of the state?" "somebody who's a member of the Sith cult?" Etc.

What constitutes a threat? Is pre-emptive action okay? Vader is standing there with his saber ignited, but he's just standing there. Obi-Wan opens up and attacks him FIRST.

Jabba is talking tough to Luke, but Luke uses the Force to draw a blaster and attempt to shoot Jabba IN THE HEAD, FIRST. A guard stops him and this gives Jabba the opportunity to toss him into the rancor pit, but the point is, Luke made the first move.

Likewise Luke choked the two Gammoreans. Sure they put up their spears, but they didn't attack him, they just said "you can't pass here" (which is what crossing the spears means... it's like a police line). He didn't wait until they were taking actual swings at him.

Yoda pushes Palpatine's guards. Sure they look at him, but they may simply have been going to escort him out of the room or arrest him, not kill him. Clearly they were no match. So why didn't Yoda just use mind trick to wave them away? Etc.

Dooku's actions could be deemed "self defense" in his combat with Obi-Wan, Anakin and Yoda.

Obi-Wan actually smiles at various points during combat in TPM and ROTS. Does that mean he's enjoying the combat and thus skirting the Dark Side? When he knows his opponents are outmatched doesn't that mean the combat was unnecessary?

I just get the idea people are painting the Jedi as pacifists, code vs. killing or code vs. violence. Their actions speak louder than their words.

Quote:
Since they are protecting themselves this would fall under using the the Force for defense.
So everyone who uses the Force in combat is not attacking, but only defending, since in combat by definition you are trying to protect yourself (even, at least at the start of, Anakin's massacre of the Sandpeople, he is defending himself... since those guards come at him with spears, though one would be very hard pressed to argue that fleeing children would be a credible threat, as described in the non-film canon sources for AOTC).

So is it even possible to use the Dark Side in combat? If a Jedi can use the force against his opponent "for defense" they why can't a Jedi like Yoda use lightning? People have been saying "oh lightning is an attack, and Jedi can't attack, so it can't be used." Why can't you use lightning defensively?

Think about a police Taser or stun gun. They use electricity to cause PAIN to the target. Why? To incapacitate them without having to resort to using bullets, which are much more likely to cause permanent damage or death (non-lethal means are not 100% non-lethal after all, but still, the goal is to be less lethal). Why are the Jedi allowed to kill, but not cause pain? And why can't they cause pain in order to avoid killing? I don't get this logic. I'm not talking about torture, I'm talking about attacks that hurt their enemy, like say, cutting off a limb, or force pushing them into a wall.

Quote:
I believe Force Lightning has been listed as a corruption of the Force and listed as a exclusive Sith/Dark Side power, in terms of the films anyway. The NJO of course allows everyone to use it in the name of justice and peace!
Can you cite the source? If the films, the highest source, say it's a corruption then we are still faced with the question of Yoda using lightning. Was he being corrupt in that moment? Is Yoda infallible?

Quote:
Of course, there are some sacrifices for gameplay, which needs to be kept in mind when including them in the analysis.
Certainly, but it's not just the games that say you can use Lightning and not be a Sith.

Quote:
But it appears that Yoda doesn't use (i.e. create) Force Lightning at any point, he mearly deflects it.
In Rots he clearly absorbs it (or tries to, before it blows up in his face). But in AOTC it appears instead that he throws lightning of his own during the battle. Even if you insist that he "absorbs and then redirects" he's still using lightning. And if that lightning hit Dooku without him blocking it, he'd have been hurt, or possibly even killed. So what do you call that?

It's like if your enemy throws a knife at you, and you catch the knife, and then throw it back. Could you logically say "I didn't use a knife"? That would be silly. I think the same applies here. And I don't think it could be argued that Yoda HAD to release the energy in the form of lightning directed back at Dooku, because notice that last barrage (where he says "Much to learn you still have) he simply absorbs the last part, and doesn't toss anything back.

I think we have an example of Yoda using Force Lightning and nobody wants to admit it, because they have preconcieved notion that using lightning = Sith Dark Side corruption, and Yoda, being infallible as a Jedi, would never do such a thing! Argggh.

Quote:
Both the Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith scripts state that Yoda deflected lightning used by the Sith:
Which doesn't matter, because the films are higher level than the scripts. Numerous discrepencies exist between the scripts and each of the Star Wars films. Yet we don't say the Script is correct while the film is not, if they contradict.

Quote:
AOTC:
YODA deflects Force lightning thrown at him by the enraged COUNT DOOKU.
Dooku looked pretty calm in that scene, and Yoda was grimacing like he was upset. If anything it's Dooku who deflects the lightning. Yoda grabs it and tosses it back at him. Then they both start tossing lightning AT EACH OTHER at the same time!

Quote:
ROTS:
The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA. YODA is deflecting the Sith Lord's lightning bolts.
Clearly this did not happen. Yoda took the first barrage full in the chest and was knocked down. Later he absorbs the lightning in real time. He never deflects it. It stops on the palms of his hands, rather than "surrounding" him. He doesn't reflect or deflect anything. It finally blows up in both their faces.

The lightning hitting Yoda's palms wasn't bouncing off and flying away in some other direction, it was like his hands were vacuum cleaners sucking up dust. In fact he had little energy balls (or flat spheres) projected from his palms that the lightning was seemingly "going into."

Quote:
Entirely too common, IMO.
Agreed. If we ignore the EU it can become a little less complicated, but I think it still points strongly against the notion that Yoda never used Force Lightning or that Jedi aren't allowed to attack using the Force (or that they don't do such a thing, even if there is a rule against it that few or no Jedi follow).

I'm not saying Yoda is evil, or that he's a secret Sith, only that he somehow uses Force Lightning. So this means either it's not forbidden for a Jedi, he's not a perfect Jedi, or Force Lightning is not always a Dark Side or "Sith Only" power.


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Old 10-18-2005, 07:41 PM   #30
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well you should know yoda is not the best fighter but he is one of the wisest. the force is used with wisdom. when dooku fired the first attack yado reflected it back . when he did is again yoda didnt asorbe it he cancled it. that why they said the fight had to come down to fight of lightsaber duel.
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Old 10-18-2005, 07:45 PM   #31
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Some have wondered why it had to be decided with a saber duel. Clearly the contest between Palpatine and Yoda was decided by their use of the Force, NOT their skills with sabers.

Perhaps Dooku meant that they both seemed to be equally good with Force attacks. But then the Jedi's use of a lightsaber is part and parcel of his use of the Force. Without the Force Yoda would not have been able to fight Dooku at all, since he's this totering old thing that needs a cane. The Force gives him Muppet Power.

Dooku as well is an old man in his character and in real life the actor portraying him. Christopher Lee didn't do any mid-air somersaults, believe it or not. So they're still using the Force, just in a different way!


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Old 10-18-2005, 07:50 PM   #32
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Jedi use their power for defence, not offence, which means attacking someone during a duel or someone firing a blaster at them.

Force lightning is purely an offensive attack and thus is not taught or practiced by the Jedi. The Sith however love all that stuff, and use offensive force powers, i.e. grip and lightning.

Yoda is obviously has a great knowledge of the force, perhaps the best, and he is the only one seen to absorb force lightning attacks wheras other jedi dealt with it by merely deflecting it with their lightsabers.

Yoda, seeking a deeper attunement to the force and the powers of the force, has studied Sith powers and learnt how to deal with them, something other Jedi have not.



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Old 10-18-2005, 07:50 PM   #33
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everyone uses the force . everytime. its those tiny cells that are every where. some people are strong in the force and master it. the dark side is stronger than the light so palpatine threw the stands while it took a lot for yoda. also as someone else mentioned yoda had major heart ache cause of order 66, so yoda was tired. yoda lost when he dropped his saber.
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Old 10-18-2005, 07:54 PM   #34
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How old are you darthzeta? Your post didn't make much sense.



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Old 10-18-2005, 07:56 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Some have wondered why it had to be decided with a saber duel. Clearly the contest between Palpatine and Yoda was decided by their use of the Force, NOT their skills with sabers.
And man would I have liked about 30 seconds more of them locking sabres too!!!!! This is one fight scene I intend to wear out come November 1st.
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Old 10-18-2005, 07:57 PM   #36
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sorry my english is not very good. im 16
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Old 10-19-2005, 01:34 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Which would mean we have to throw out vast chunks of previously written sources which indicate that Lightning is a neutral power, that can be used by "Light" Jedi and Dark Jedi, not just Sith.
What, EU sources? I thought they were overwritten by G-canon. But in any event, lightning is a dark side ability only at least.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
If it was exclusively Sith, and no Sith have been seen for 1,000 years, then how did the Jedi know how to counter it so easily? (Other than Anakin the hothead of course!).
Because the Jedi have been around for 25,000 years. Being such slaves to tradition they likely were still prepared for such things. Hell, lightsaber-wielding foes were almost just as unheard of over the same 1000 years, and yet the Jedi still train in lightsaber dueling. There were likely lots of things the Jedi were trained in that were not always useful in the present day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Fair enough. Most people are taking it to mean that to use the force in battle is the dark side, therefore whenever they see a Jedi using a Force power in battle they suddenly get this double standard, that it's not really aggressive or violent, but when the same thing is done by a Sith they call it the Dark Side (but they are unwilling to say that the Jedi doing the power is "skirting the darkside" unless it's Anakin).
Personally I don't think that using the Force in certain ways in battle is "dark".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
And yet all that the Jedi are is about using the Force to augment, enhance and facilitate their role as fighters. The fact is that the Jedi use violence to achieve their goals, and this necessarily means that the Force is used in the cause of violence. Is this right or wrong? You decide, but I think regardless people have this notion that "a Jedi would never do such a thing" when we have mountains of evidence to the contrary. Either the Jedi we're given are supposed to be "bad Jedi" or else their theory is inaccurate or incomplete.
Indeed. The view of Jedi a pacifists is clearly incorrect. Just as viewing police as pacifists is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
So you need to define "coming under attack." Does this mean "enemy rushing towards you about to strike?" "Somebody with a weapon in the room?" "Somebody who is a threat to the peace?" "Somebody who's an enemy of the state?" "somebody who's a member of the Sith cult?" Etc.
Fair enough. But has any Jedi in the films used the force to directly (i.e. Force inflicted damage) attack an opponent?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Jabba is talking tough to Luke, but Luke uses the Force to draw a blaster and attempt to shoot Jabba IN THE HEAD, FIRST. A guard stops him and this gives Jabba the opportunity to toss him into the rancor pit, but the point is, Luke made the first move.
I know it is a sutle difference, but Luke is using the Force to grab a blaster, not attack Jabba directly (with a choke, lightning, push, etc.). I agree that in the real world this is a pretty fine seperation, but I chalk it up to the movie kung fu style of philosphy: only study kung fu to defend yourself. But cinematically use it to wipe the floor with everyone. But this is the sort of seperation I've kind of applied for years. YMMV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Likewise Luke choked the two Gammoreans. Sure they put up their spears, but they didn't attack him, they just said "you can't pass here" (which is what crossing the spears means... it's like a police line). He didn't wait until they were taking actual swings at him.
I believe this was in fact a dark side act. I can't remember for sure, but I believe the RPG also states as much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Yoda pushes Palpatine's guards. Sure they look at him, but they may simply have been going to escort him out of the room or arrest him, not kill him. Clearly they were no match.
Well, they move towards him presumably to prevent him from getting Palpatine. So for cinematic purposes I think this falls under defending himself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
So why didn't Yoda just use mind trick to wave them away? Etc.
They weren't weak-minded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Dooku's actions could be deemed "self defense" in his combat with Obi-Wan, Anakin and Yoda.
But he used the Force to directly attack those dudes. The dudes did not counter similarly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Obi-Wan actually smiles at various points during combat in TPM and ROTS. Does that mean he's enjoying the combat and thus skirting the Dark Side? When he knows his opponents are outmatched doesn't that mean the combat was unnecessary?
Was Kenobi using the Force directly to attack in that situation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
I just get the idea people are painting the Jedi as pacifists, code vs. killing or code vs. violence. Their actions speak louder than their words.
True. The Jedi are not pacifists, and I don't think they've ever claimed they were.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
So everyone who uses the Force in combat is not attacking, but only defending, since in combat by definition you are trying to protect yourself (even, at least at the start of, Anakin's massacre of the Sandpeople, he is defending himself... since those guards come at him with spears, though one would be very hard pressed to argue that fleeing children would be a credible threat, as described in the non-film canon sources for AOTC).
I still think how what aspects and in what way the force is used is relavent. And did Anakin use the force on them (chokes and lightning) or chop them up? I can't remember what the novel says.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
So is it even possible to use the Dark Side in combat? If a Jedi can use the force against his opponent "for defense" they why can't a Jedi like Yoda use lightning? People have been saying "oh lightning is an attack, and Jedi can't attack, so it can't be used." Why can't you use lightning defensively?
Because force lightning is a corruption of the Force and requires the dark side to use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
If the films, the highest source, say it's a corruption then we are still faced with the question of Yoda using lightning. Was he being corrupt in that moment? Is Yoda infallible?
Again, I don't think Yoda was generating the lightning. He as directing and repulsing it back at Dooku as also stated on starwars.com. And as such he was not being corrupt. He was directing Dooku's attack back at him, as Windu did to Palpatine. Also similar to the Jedi redirecting blaster fire back at their attacker.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
I think we have an example of Yoda using Force Lightning and nobody wants to admit it, because they have preconcieved notion that using lightning = Sith Dark Side corruption, and Yoda, being infallible as a Jedi, would never do such a thing! Argggh.
starwars.com uses the terms "Sith Lightning" and "Dark Side Lightning" in reference to Palpatine's attack on Windu as well as Palpatine's listed weapon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Which doesn't matter, because the films are higher level than the scripts. Numerous discrepencies exist between the scripts and each of the Star Wars films. Yet we don't say the Script is correct while the film is not, if they contradict.
Starwars.com also calls it Sith and dark side lightning, in all cases in the "movie" section.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Dooku looked pretty calm in that scene, and Yoda was grimacing like he was upset.
Perhaps grimacing in effort?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Clearly this did not happen. Yoda took the first barrage full in the chest and was knocked down. Later he absorbs the lightning in real time. He never deflects it. It stops on the palms of his hands, rather than "surrounding" him. He doesn't reflect or deflect anything. It finally blows up in both their faces.

The lightning hitting Yoda's palms wasn't bouncing off and flying away in some other direction, it was like his hands were vacuum cleaners sucking up dust. In fact he had little energy balls (or flat spheres) projected from his palms that the lightning was seemingly "going into."
Then are you happy with the term "repulsed"? In any event, pretected himself from the lightning. Again my point is, he did not generate the lightning, and so not corrupting the Force.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Agreed. If we ignore the EU it can become a little less complicated, but I think it still points strongly against the notion that Yoda never used Force Lightning or that Jedi aren't allowed to attack using the Force (or that they don't do such a thing, even if there is a rule against it that few or no Jedi follow).
Again, I think that it is clear that Yoda was not generating the Sith Lightning and was in fact deflecting it back at his attacker.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darthzeta
well you should know yoda is not the best fighter but he is one of the wisest.
Actually, it is indicated in several sources that he is in fact the greatest fighter of all the Jedi.

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Old 10-19-2005, 07:06 PM   #38
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Post this is it for now...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
What, EU sources? I thought they were overwritten by G-canon (and certainly not fully consistent or free from error!). But in any event, lightning is a dark side ability only at least.
Whoa, dude, major reply. Sure they're overwritten if they contradict! If you don't mind that, no biggie.

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Because the Jedi have been around for 25,000 years. Being such slaves to tradition they likely were still prepared for such things.
According to the ROTS novelisation they were completely unprepared for the Sith's latest plans. Why would they be training for 1,000 years to be ready to counter Sith lightning in case their extinct enemies rose from the dead, but be completely unprepared for a force user hiding in their upper government for the last decade?

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Hell, lightsaber-wielding foes were almost just as unheard of over the same 1000 years, and yet the Jedi still train in lightsaber dueling. There were likely lots of things the Jedi were trained in that were not always useful in the present day.
Another excellent point. How do they know how to "duel"? They must duel with each other to practice. But at least there you have them training. Do you also have them training with lightning against each other behind the scenes though?

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Personally I don't think that using the Force in certain ways in battle is "dark".

Indeed. The view of Jedi a pacifists is clearly incorrect. Just as viewing police as pacifists is.
Excellent, then we're not that far off, you and I. I'm mainly arguing with those who insist that Yoda couldn't have used the force offensively, much less used lightning, ever.

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Fair enough. But has any Jedi in the films used the force to directly (i.e. Force inflicted damage) attack an opponent?
Yes. Force Push used by Qui Gon, Obi-Wan, Yoda, Kit Fisto, and Anakin (and not just against droids in most cases, if that's an issue). Luke used Grip. Yoda used Lightning. All the Jedi use the Force to aid their lightsaber/martial arts attacks in killing or taking the first swing notably Obi-Wan in his later years and Mace Windu (some call this indirect so feel free to ignore this last part if you wish).

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I know it is a sutle difference, but Luke is using the Force to grab a blaster, not attack Jabba directly (with a choke, lightning, push, etc.).
So if you setup a Guilotine with somebody's head on the chopping block, then used the force to "drop the blade" you wouldn't actually be using the Force to kill them, so this would be alright. But if you used the Force itself to rip their head from their body, this would be "wrong" (darkside)? Or if you used the Force to guide your lightsaber to their throat, to cut off their head, this would also not be "darkside"?

If that's true, using the Force to push somebody out a window or using the Force to drop a rock on somebody to kill them would both also be "not darkside." Would you agree with that?


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I agree that in the real world this is a pretty fine seperation, but I chalk it up to the movie kung fu style of philosphy: only study kung fu to defend yourself. But cinematically use it to wipe the floor with everyone. But this is the sort of seperation I've kind of applied for years. YMMV.
Fair enough. In all sorts of movies, we "let the heroes off the hook" for any violence they commit, excessive or not. But I'm just saying in this case, if we were somehow in the Star Wars universe, and it was all real, how would we judge it? Would we just say killing and aggressive use of the Force is only wrong when done by Sith or turncoat Jedi?

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I believe this was in fact a dark side act. I can't remember for sure, but I believe the RPG also states as much.
Ah yes, game mechanics. See my comments about them earlier.

I will admit that the RPGs have long influenced lazy EU writers, leading to some of the brain bugs we have today, but still. I'd say we can basically ignore a lot of it based on ideas of game balance/challenge and they're superceded by the movies.

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Well, they move towards him presumably to prevent him from getting Palpatine. So for cinematic purposes I think this falls under defending himself.
That's pretty iffy. That would mean interfering with one's political goals gives one carte blanche in the use of force (here I mean physical force, so no pun intended!). This I think is sort of how the Jedi view themselves. They are a police force, and thus have been given vast police powers and oversight. While they are sworn to protect and serve, they can do things the ordinary citizen wouldn't be allowed to do.

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They weren't weak-minded.
How do we know that? Most guards in movies are stupid. In real life I'm sure you'd pick somebody who isn't an idiot, but ceremonial guards... aren't they usually chosen because of loyalty and because they look good in a uniform more than anything? You want a guy who can muscle out some would-be assassin, not somebody who's smarter than you are. In any case, he could have used the Force to disarm them, etc. There were an infinite number of things he could have done. He chose to slam them against the wall into unconsciousness (? they never get back up again, they might as well have been dead for all we know).

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But he used the Force to directly attack those dudes. The dudes did not counter similarly.
Yoda used lightning against him (and Yoda later Force Pushes Palpatine). I think that qualifies. Is a Jedi allowed to use the Force to attack Sith? Perhaps one could argue that the Jedi hate the Sith so much and consider them so dangerous, that they throw out their ethical combat rules when it comes to facing them. Perhaps... but then the fact that they seem to have no qualms about using the Force against common foes doesn't support that conclusion. Obi-Wan force pushes Grevious.

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Was Kenobi using the Force directly to attack in that situation?
No, not that I can see. To me it was an example of a Jedi seeming to enjoy combat (more against the "pacificist" and "abhor violence" type of arguments). Compare this with Mace Windu's demeaner in AOTC and ROTS. It's just a counter to the non-warrior mentality some have with the Jedi.

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True. The Jedi are not pacifists, and I don't think they've ever claimed they were.
Right, exactly! I just think much of the "Jedi would never do that" rhetoric comes from an interpretation of Yoda's lines in ESB. He says "wars not make one great" (implying war is wrong, so a Jedi would not participate in war). And he says "the Jedi use the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack" (implying a Jedi would never attack someone, using the Force). Both appear to be utter nonesense when we see the prequels. Some call this a blatant contradiction and that Lucas has betrayed the logic of his own story. Others see this simply as Yoda's changing philosophy over time (I think that's perfectly reasonable), OR revisionist history on his part in order to try to take no chances with Luke, whom he has little time to train so in-depth, and whose great power means they can't afford to lose him to the Dark Side.

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I still think how what aspects and in what way the force is used is relavent. And did Anakin use the force on them (chokes and lightning) or chop them up? I can't remember what the novel says.
One could argue that Yoda is simply more knowledgable about the Force than these other guys. Apparently (at least in the films) lightning is pretty rare. One person speculated that Yoda had spent his life studying the Dark Side teachings, in addition to his normal Jedi stuff. So he not only learned how to counter lightning, he most assuredly learned how to use it.

Anakin's sudden use of Force Grip is a bit interesting as well. Did Palpatine teach it to him after he "converted"? Or did he just use his imagination to apply the use of telekinesis (a basic power most Jedi seem to have mastered) to something a little more aggressive that he probably wouldn't have been allowed to use before? But lightning feels different because it's an energy attack we can see, all flashy and such. Telekinesis is a force, granted, it feels like gravity or wind or something. Lightning is more dramatic.

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Because force lightning is a corruption of the Force and requires the dark side to use.
But SAYS WHO... and where? That's the key. If this info is never stated in the movies, where are we getting it from? And even if it were, why can't Yoda use this corruption of the Force?

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Again, I don't think Yoda was generating the lightning. He as directing and repulsing it back at Dooku as also stated on starwars.com.
So you're basing this entire argument on what Starwars.com says, that Lightning can only be used by tapping into the Dark Side? (and it being assumed that Yoda could never do this, despite what we see onscreen!)

StarWars.com is not canon (not that I've ever heard anyway! unless they're quoting Lucas himself). But anyway, the instance that everyone agrees is Yoda "absorbing" the lightning is completely different in mechanism from what happens later. So even if he was somehow "not using lightning" by "repulsing it" in one shot, he apparently is doing something else later.

It's like this (again to use the knife in place of lightning to get a better picture of what's going on):

First Dooku throws a knife at Yoda, who catches it and throws it back at him. Dooku blocks the knife with his hand so it falls away to the ground. Then Dooku starts throwing knife after knife at Yoda. Yoda also throws knife after knife, and each time, two knives meet in mid air and fall to the ground. Finally at the end, Yoda catches the last knife, and puts it away in his belt.

The way you're describing it, rather Dooku just continually throws knives at Yoda, who catches them and drops them on the floor.

Now using the knife analogy with Palpatine, it's like Palpy is throwing knife after knife at Yoda, who's catching all of them. But eventually his arms are overburdened full of a huge pile of knives, and the heavy "stack" falls over, knocking them both down.


Quote:
And as such he was not being corrupt.
How do we know though? We're assuming Yoda can't make mistakes or be tempted by the Dark Side. And yet we have people like Anakin and Mace Windu who can apparently skirt the Dark Side (the latter is an EU interpretation, granted, but still, he supposedly uses the Dark Side everytime he goes into saber combat, and yet he never "falls" as we know it).

Quote:
He was directing Dooku's attack back at him, as Windu did to Palpatine. Also similar to the Jedi redirecting blaster fire back at their attacker.
Ah but you're still ignoring the case of Yoda throwing lightning of his own. I wish I could grab a movie of it. Watch carefully.. lightning comes from the hands of both characters!

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starwars.com uses the terms "Sith Lightning" and "Dark Side Lightning" in reference to Palpatine's attack on Windu as well as Palpatine's listed weapon.

Starwars.com also calls it Sith and dark side lightning, in all cases in the "movie" section.
And such terms are never used in the movies. In fact nothing at all is said about lightning in the movies! I've also heard people use the term "evil lightning." But we don't make the same kinds of sayings for Grip. We don't call it "Sith Grip" or "Dark Side Grip" or "Evil Choke." Or Push, we don't call it different things based on who uses it. I don't think this really makes a difference unless Lucas somewhere says that Lightning is a Dark Side only power. I just wonder why he had Yoda throwing lightning! Nobody seems to be able to answer this, they can only continually deny that he does it.

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Perhaps grimacing in effort?
Perhaps. And perhaps Dooku was not really "enraged" either, but was just straining to overcome these Jedi attacking him.

Now when Palpy is pummelling Luke with lightning in ROTJ he looks like he's really mad, but in all the other cases you could equally argue that the user of the Force is simply "concentrating" or whatever (like a Tennis player grunting with exertion on a hard shot). But I think many people would give the Jedi the benefit of the doubt, and assuming the same is a sign of dark side malice with a sith character.

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Then are you happy with the term "repulsed"? In any event, pretected himself from the lightning. Again my point is, he did not generate the lightning, and so not corrupting the Force.
I think the scene shows Yoda absorbing, redirecting, and then using lightning of his own. Saying he "blocked it all" Or "absorbed it all" or "repulsed it all" implies that it was all the same. It's clearly not, by what we're shown.

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Again, I think that it is clear that Yoda was not generating the Sith Lightning and was in fact deflecting it back at his attacker.
I think it's not at all clear. I think people are forcing an interpretation on the onscreen evidence based on a priori assumption that Lightning is a darkside power and Yoda would never use a darkside power, so he could never have down what we see him doing! If you want to call it "Sith Lightning" (rather than just saying it's something neutral like all the other powers that Jedi and Sith share) then it may be distasteful for you to accept that Yoda generates "Sith" Lightning but there you go. Why couldn't Yoda have done this? Is he unable to make mistakes? We have a person saying he studied the Dark Side for years in order to counter it. Would he not then KNOW how to use it, perhaps?

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Actually, it is indicated in several sources that he is in fact the greatest fighter of all the Jedi.
I'd be curious also which one says he's the greatest fighter of all time (saberist?). Then again I don't put much stock in such things, since it rarely plays out the way its supposed to onscreen. I mean if Anakin is so great, why does Luke beat him? If Obi-Wan is so awesome, why does he continually get beaten? Obviously mastery of saber fighting is not the only factor in combat. I keep hearing that Yoda is not the best saberist, but he's the most powerful force using Jedi. Considering we only see him ever fight one Jedi (whom he was unable to beat), I guess we'll just never know for sure (in G-level canon anyway!).


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Old 10-19-2005, 11:09 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
According to the ROTS novelisation they were completely unprepared for the Sith's latest plans. Why would they be training for 1,000 years to be ready to counter Sith lightning in case their extinct enemies rose from the dead, but be completely unprepared for a force user hiding in their upper government for the last decade?
Because the Jedi presumably had prepared for the Sith as they new them from a thousand years previously. Before the Battle of Ruusan the Sith were to a large extent a military force, and then went to the Rule of Two. The Sith essentially transformed into a new entity (using sabatage and other non-confrontational methods), against which the Jedi were not prepared. Although presumably they should have been more prepared having know of the Rule of Two.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Another excellent point. How do they know how to "duel"? They must duel with each other to practice. But at least there you have them training. Do you also have them training with lightning against each other behind the scenes though?
There are lots of references outside the films that talk about the Jedi dueling each other. As for Lightning, if the Sith had used it on the battlefield in the previous millenia I don't think it is unfeasible that the Jedi would know how to defend themselves against it. But that being said, the only Jedi we see defending themselves with success are Kenobi, Windu, and Yoda. These were all master and council level Jedi, so whether the knowledge was know to the rank and file is not clear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Excellent, then we're not that far off, you and I. I'm mainly arguing with those who insist that Yoda couldn't have used the force offensively, much less used lightning, ever.
I think lightning is out of the question, but certainly there is some use of the force in combat situations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Fair enough. In all sorts of movies, we "let the heroes off the hook" for any violence they commit, excessive or not. But I'm just saying in this case, if we were somehow in the Star Wars universe, and it was all real, how would we judge it? Would we just say killing and aggressive use of the Force is only wrong when done by Sith or turncoat Jedi?
I think how the force is used plays a large part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
That's pretty iffy. That would mean interfering with one's political goals gives one carte blanche in the use of force (here I mean physical force, so no pun intended!). This I think is sort of how the Jedi view themselves. They are a police force, and thus have been given vast police powers and oversight. While they are sworn to protect and serve, they can do things the ordinary citizen wouldn't be allowed to do.
Since they are under the judicial department of the Republic government, no doubt they could.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
How do we know that? Most guards in movies are stupid.
I know you don't like starwars.com, but in the movie section it claims "Only the most promising of the Imperial ranks were selected for Royal Guard duty, based on stringent requirements of size, strength, intelligence, and loyalty." So considering the Emperor likely did the selecting and knew that at some point he would need to protect himself against the Jedi it is reasonable to assume that they were at least in part trained to resist the mind trick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Right, exactly! I just think much of the "Jedi would never do that" rhetoric comes from an interpretation of Yoda's lines in ESB. He says "wars not make one great" (implying war is wrong, so a Jedi would not participate in war). And he says "the Jedi use the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack" (implying a Jedi would never attack someone, using the Force). Both appear to be utter nonesense when we see the prequels. Some call this a blatant contradiction and that Lucas has betrayed the logic of his own story. Others see this simply as Yoda's changing philosophy over time (I think that's perfectly reasonable)
I just think the ESB quote is over applied.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
So you're basing this entire argument on what Starwars.com says, that Lightning can only be used by tapping into the Dark Side? (and it being assumed that Yoda could never do this, despite what we see onscreen!)
I'm basing it on official sources, as well as what Lucas states (see below).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
StarWars.com is not canon (not that I've ever heard anyway! unless they're quoting Lucas himself).
I thought I remembered one of those Jedi Council things saying that it was, but alas those are no longer around. But certainly they are not posting false information, especially when it comes to sections related to the films. If you choose to disregard what is stated on starwars.com, that is your perogative.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Ah but you're still ignoring the case of Yoda throwing lightning of his own. I wish I could grab a movie of it. Watch carefully.. lightning comes from the hands of both characters!
I'm not ignoring it. I don't believe he is generating the lightning. And watching it again now does not change that view.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
And such terms are never used in the movies. In fact nothing at all is said about lightning in the movies! I've also heard people use the term "evil lightning." But we don't make the same kinds of sayings for Grip. We don't call it "Sith Grip" or "Dark Side Grip" or "Evil Choke." Or Push, we don't call it different things based on who uses it. I don't think this really makes a difference unless Lucas somewhere says that Lightning is a Dark Side only power. I just wonder why he had Yoda throwing lightning! Nobody seems to be able to answer this, they can only continually deny that he does it.
Again, I don't think he does have Yoda using Force Lightning, and I think this is supported my Lucas' comments. On the AOTC commentary he does state the following when talking about the Skywalker/Kenobi/Dooku fight:

"...I had to begin to show that Dooku had these powers similar to what the Emperor had. Sith powers. Dark Side powers...so we do a little bit of the Sith thing in the beginning to get rid of Anakin and let Obi-Wan have his fight."

Obviously he is refering to lightning since that is specifically what takes Anakin out of the fight, and pre-ROTS it is the only power we see the Emperor use. Do you not agree that Lucas is straight up calling Force Lightning and Sith and Dark Side power?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
I'd be curious also which one says he's the greatest fighter of all time (saberist?). Then again I don't put much stock in such things, since it rarely plays out the way its supposed to onscreen.
So no point mentioning it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
I mean if Anakin is so great, why does Luke beat him?
Because Anakin was damaged goods, which is why the Emperor saught to replace him with Luke in the first place. Lucas has stated that Vader ended up being 80% the power of the Emperor, whereas he was originally destined to be twice as powerful.

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Old 10-19-2005, 11:11 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Ah but you're still ignoring the case of Yoda throwing lightning of his own. I wish I could grab a movie of it. Watch carefully.. lightning comes from the hands of both characters!
I have watched it carefully MANY times. If we're all so wrong then how come Yoda does not initiate an attack of his own with lightning? We see Dooku initiate an attack with lightning but NOT Yoda. Can Yoda do it? There is no question in my mind that he CAN, but he WON'T.

Last edited by Blaze629; 10-19-2005 at 11:29 PM.
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