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Old 10-21-2005, 09:35 PM   #1
Vladimir-Vlada
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Lightbulb Flaws of KOTOR 1 and 2 gameplay, and Possible improvments for gameplay

The explanation of the title of this thread is:

If KOTOR 3 is going to be made, and completed to the end; plus: if Bioware or Obsidian look through these forums at all; the developers will first have to know what were the flaws on which most peope complain concerning gameplay, to make it better and enjoyable. Also, some ideas for the improvements of the gameplay, thought of by fans.

But before we begin, there are a few rules, that must be followed:
  • First of all, this thread is about the flaws and possible improvements for gameplay, not the storyline. So NO mention, NO ideas or ANYTHING concerning the Storyline.
  • No discussion of possible PC's, that is a STORYLINE subject, same rules as the above
  • Same goes for NPC's returning from KOTOR 1 and 2
  • Please, no improvements, major changes like mixing genres and so

Oh, and just to point out in any case: NO STORYLINE DISCUSSIONS!
Got it?! Okay...

I'll first begin with the flaws that I'mpretty sure, most people had problem with:

Flaws :

The Length of the game : One of the most daunting flaws is the short gameplay, which can be completed within a matter of days. While other RPG's need to be played for months, even YEARS to be completed, KOTOR tooks only a week. So it can be really painful to see such a masterpiece end so quickly. The first recomendation would be set the length of the game to a reasonable ammount of time to play.

Number of Enemies : Even though the battles can be quite fun (sometimes), the number of enemies to fight is dangerously low. Encountering small three-men parties every hour can be boring sometimes. Even though this is an RPG where most things are solved through dialogs, rather than combat, combat still exists, and should be paid more attention to, which leads me to my next point...

Combat Systems : Likewise, RPG's aren't about combat, they are about the freedom of choice, story and dialogs there is still the option to solve problems the hard way. So I will present the Combat Systems of KOTOR...

Melee Combat System : Before someone takes this wrong, melee combat isn't a flaw, nor is it badly put. The Melee system is pretty good for most RPG's and could easily be loved by anyone. The Melee system only lacks variety and excitment: Same animations, fighting one by one enemy at a time isn't really fun to watch. So the only two things that have to be improved about it (in my opinion at least) are: To insert new animations and Include the possibility to attack multiple enemies at one time.

Ranged Combat System : Unlike the Melee combat, which was pretty good, ranged combat has a different story... The Ranged combat system is not just a badly put way to satisfy someone, but also a very, very, very serious flaw; which hurts both the gameplay and the game itself. To simplify things, the fact is that the Ranged Combat is neither natrual, nor fun, nor enjoying. So I would recomend that the first thing to do about combat is to rework, reconfigure and construct the Ranged Combat system. For variety, try inserting hiding behing walls or better avoiding, it won't be that bad.

Small number of Attributes, Skills, Feats and Force Powers : To watch the characters work the same feats over and over again and to cast the same spells which are very weak and don't work, just for amusement, is indeed boring to watch and also to use the same skills just to improve the items you have, is not just worth doing. The improvement on this would be to have more Attributes, Skills, Feats and Force Powers to make the character development deeper.

Small number of worlds and small size of maps and planets : Definaetly the most annoying thing ever. To 'explore' children parks in order to find artifacts that even dogs could dig up and sell to a Mandalorian Trader, is seriously bad. The maps don't have that feeling of nice landscapes to explore and worlds to find out about. So it really is required to insert more worlds and maps... A LOT of them.

Low Interactivity with the Enviorment : In my opinion, one of the biggest flaws of KOTOR 1 and 2. The interactivity is one of the most poorly done and disappointing asspects of all times. The only degree of interactivity is working on benches, talking to people, using terminals and looting containers, and that's it. With only that little interactivity, the maps in which the characters walk thorugh are more of a decoration than a place to explore and experiment with. In a lot of games, the intreactivity was one of the best asspects of those games, like using physics, examaing objects, finding and opening ancient temples and tombs and so on and on. However in KOTOR that was one of the worst flaws in the entire game. So my advie on this is: As soon as they start on the gameplay, the first thing they must work on is: Interactivity with the Enviorment, later things will just add up.

Poor Party Member and NPC character development : This is more of a flaw of KOTOR 2, rather than KOTOR 1, so it doesn't refer to KOTOR 1.
I have to say that in KOTOR 1 I was very impressed how the characters were made and how deep their charaters ran, so I aplaud the conviction of Bioware. But in KOTOR 2, that was a disaster... The characters were hardly even worked on in KOTOR 2, the NPC's were pawns or hopless evil visionaries to kill you, BUT THE PARTY MEMBERS, now DON'T make me start saying... In KOTOR 1, the party members had a sort of realationship with you, and that had a somewhat effect on the storyline. In KOTOR 2 however, the party members had a 'secret' realationship with each other which you didn't know about. And inserting and the configration of the influence system, drove the party members even further down into the mud. I am interested in having party members that have their own opinions, arguments and discussions about your actions and behaviour, not into training some second-hand a bit developed soldiers that do what I say only if I do the right thing at the right time (according to them) in front of them??? So my advice is: WORK ON THE PARTY MEMBERS.

Oh, man I have to stop about flaws now, I can't think of anyting else. But here are some possible minor improvements:

Possible Improvements :

Flyable Ebon Hawk : Why did Han Solo have the Millenium Falcon? To just live in it and travel from a planet to planet with a press of a button? I don't think so... From my point of view Han Solo, Luke Skywalker and Luke Saben/Ryan Pano don't have their vehicles as rollercoaster rides. So it would be nice to see the Ebon Hawk flyable a bit (at least through space, fighting in a battle or flying across a planets surface ).

Add Vehicles : Not really neceseary, just a thought if there are going to be huge terrains.

Wielding both Melee and Ranged weapon at the same time : Just a thought you know.

Combo Moves : I think that this is self-explanatory.

Main Character Voice Acting : A feature I would really love to see, but if it's a problem to insert or stupid to add at all, then I'm fine with it. But it would still be nice if it would be in. (add the option to enable or disable the voice-acting for the main character).

That's all for now. Please don't get me wrong with this, I didn't mean to say that they are bad, I am just rying to help out and make sugestions.
Your turn people.

P.S. Remember: NO STORYLINE CONCERNING THINGS.
P.P.S. No storyline dicussions
P.P.P.S. Storyline concerning sugestions are not allowed
P.P.P.P.S. Discuss the storyline somewhere else.
P.P...........
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Old 10-22-2005, 12:25 AM   #2
RobQel-Droma
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I think that I want the story to be.... Just kidding

I agree with everything mentioned . I would like some Main Character Voice Acting, just some of the "Got it", ''didn't work", and little interjections like that. I don't want to have every sentence spoken, but it would be nice if you character was a little bit more like an actual person.

And I also really want a flyable Ebon Hawk, I like the turret minigame, but I would like to fly it too. And what about space battles like Battlefront II? I don't want them to be random, but what if you didn't have the Ebon Hawk (As the Exile has it) and were flying in a Republic Fighter, and got attacked in a main story battle?

More Interactivity With the Enviroment, ABSOLUTELY. What if you could do things with rocks, the ground, trees, metal debris, take chemicals, just be able to do whatever. Maybe construct things from the components, or just mess around with it. Skip stones across a stream (well not really, I hope they don't spend time on that, but I hope you get my point).

As for attacking, I would like it if their were a lot of more moves, more of combinations of attacks. What I mean is if you are carrying a saber, you aren't just restricted to saber attacks, perhaps you could punch or kick on your own. If you learned the equivalent of Teras Kasi, then why don't you use it in fight? Just choose a regular or special attack that you make a small attack and puch/kick, perhaps knocking somebody down if it is a kick.

And more on fighting, if I am using speed, I want the attacks to be different. I run faster, but the attacks look the same even though I am getting two hits! There should be a seperate animation for Force Speed combined with attack, a faster moving blade, not just two different red numbers. Same goes for Saber styles, if I switch to Form VII from Form I, I want the stance to be different, and also the attacks to a certain degree.

Rideable animals and vehicles is another yes. Get on a tauntaun, or a bantha, or a speeder bike and be able to zoom off across the surface of whatever planet/

And I really want longer gameplay, bigger planets, bigger battles. As far as gameplay, I want to have KotOR III last a LONG time, and then last again the second time. Maybe they could work in some randomness as far as enemys and puzzles and such; If you ever played the game Riven: The Sequel to Myst, then you know what I mean. Granted, KotOR III isn't a puzzle game, but still it would be cool. In Riven there are several codes and things like that, that are always different every time you play, so you can't just type in the same code and have it work.

Bigger planets, yes yes yes yes yes.... I want to explore them, not go back and forth between town 1 and town 2. I would like to just walk around in them, find things, and fight creatures. Perhaps finding other settlements/towns/citys that may not have anything to do with the story, but just a few little easter eggs.

Big battles I will say the same for. I would love it if I get the feeling I am playing the Uruk-Hai vs. The Fellowship in Lord of the Rings, when they are in Amon Hen; Except, instead of the lone Aragorn going up against hundreds of these huge monsters that are the elite of the orcs, it would be you, the Jedi, going up against hundreds of Sith, whether troopers, masters, apprentices, monsters, whatever.

Tremendous characters with tremendous backstorys would be a major plus two. This is why I don't want the same characters from the other games as there isn't much to tell about them, nothing to find out, nothing to customize or train or whatever. I think that they should make appearances, and maybe some as temporary party members (like Bastila), but you said no storylines, so I won't go there. I want new characters that you don't know, except for HK, T3, and Mandalore/Canderous.

And, I am not sure how they would do this, but I would like if the light/dark choices are not so black and white. I think Bastila said in K1 that the dark side creeps up on you and you don't even know it. So say for instance, you are thrown into a situation that you have to make a desicion, but whatever decision you make, somebody might die, or you might make a terrible mistake- except you don't really know, it is not obvious what the right answer is. And maybe, there isn't any right answer.

That is all I have for now, I agree with you on everything, and I hope they listen to us or do some more things like this .
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Old 10-24-2005, 12:41 AM   #3
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I'm not sure about the game being longer. It depends how long. KotOR is a sotry-based RPG, if it takes too long to finish it, the story might feel like it's dragging a bit.

I do like the idea of a flyable Ebon Hawk as part of the mini-game. The Turret mini-game was also a lot of fun (though please, make it better then just sitting there waiting for the Sith Fighters to fly in front of your turbo-lasers).


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Old 10-24-2005, 05:26 AM   #4
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I definately think the combat system needs a rehaul. click click click is kinda boring, and it feels like there's little control over the battle, its all in the stats and it doesnt really matter what you do. I think possibly a real time combat system like jade empire could work, certainly it would allow for more intense, interesting fights.

Secondly, i feel that there should definately be an expansion of space flight. Perhaps making it sort of a strategy thing where you assign party members to different stations depending on their varying skills.

Thirdly i think that korriban and dantooine are getting old, i think all the planets should be new, or at least if we do have recurring ones, make them breif visits, not a large chunk of the game.

and fourthly, im with lukeiamyourdad about length, both kotor games are a good length i think. As much as id like a kotor game to go on for ever and ever, expecting much longer is a bit of a daunting task on the developers and content would probably grow thin for a game any longer than 40 or so hours first play
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Old 10-24-2005, 06:37 AM   #5
Zerathustra
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Dark/Light Side

I agree with RobQel-Droma here. There were few moments (too few) in KotOR where I really thought I made the right thing but ended up with dark side points. Those are the moments when you stop and think about your choices and I want more of those moments. According to Star Wars philosophy dark side is the fast and easy way and even the noblest Jedi must always fight against it. It would be difficult but worthwhile to make it so in KotOR III. Always doing the right thing should be difficult and would not give much immediate benefits. The trick is to do this while keeping the game balanced and fun to play on both sides.

The transition could also be a bit more insidious. Leading righteous but lazy Jedi down the dark path without them always knowing it. I like the light/dark meter on KotORs though. Maybe you could achieve this by making some dark side choices have a drastic effect on your alignment.

The choice of alignment should also have more effect on your dialogue options and quests. Perhaps making it very hard to redeem yourself when you're "bad enough" and having the dark side make the choice for you in the earlier part of the game. Although not everyone would like this one.

I would also enable Jedi to unlearn force powers. For example Jedi could fall to the dark side and switch Master Valour to Dark Rage or become unable to use certain light side techniques and free up the points to select dark side powers.


As for the other suggestions I pretty much agree with everyone although I don't think completing the main quest of the game should take more than, maybe 40 hours, and that's pretty long already. Instead I would include more significant and compelling side quests which could make the game MUCH longer for people like us.
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Old 10-24-2005, 08:56 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
I'm not sure about the game being longer. It depends how long. KotOR is a sotry-based RPG, if it takes too long to finish it, the story might feel like it's dragging a bit.
Plus, most of us don't play the game without sleep for 50+ hours straight. Thus the game takes a lot longer to complete. It took me over a month to finish TSL. Frankly I don't want to have to take a year to finish a game...

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Old 10-24-2005, 09:19 AM   #7
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After playing K1 and K2 for most of a year, I finally got into a couple of other games (ya, they had me addicted). One thing I have noticed is that the KOTOR series is actually a bit limited per world, chapter, section, area. In the other RPG's I have been playing there is actually quite a bit more to do per chapter...more sidequests and places to explore. That's the one major thing I would like to see in K3...more. More and different items, more places to explore, and more sidequests. I would also like to see LS/DS and the influence system mean something. Perhaps different paths for LS and DS to reach the same goal and your NPC's reacting differently to your alignment based on your influence on them.
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Old 10-24-2005, 10:18 AM   #8
Vladimir-Vlada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob-Qel Droma
Big battles I will say the same for. I would love it if I get the feeling I am playing the Uruk-Hai vs. The Fellowship in Lord of the Rings, when they are in Amon Hen; Except, instead of the lone Aragorn going up against hundreds of these huge monsters that are the elite of the orcs, it would be you, the Jedi, going up against hundreds of Sith, whether troopers, masters, apprentices, monsters, whatever.
I second tha thought, the lack of battles really makes it boring to watch.

NOTE: I believe that this is a type of thread that sould be packed up and sent to Bioware or Obisidan, because:

1. These are not ideas, these are sugestions
2. These point out flaws to help develop the game
3. They will be very valuable information on how to make the game
4. The fans will be happy if some of these sugestions are listened
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Old 10-24-2005, 10:34 AM   #9
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As you said we need a longer game. When I was playing the game I often found that the game became to short as it progressed. I feel that if there is going to be a Kotor III they should add more planets. Also NPC storyline development. They should go into more detail about who the NPCs are and where they come from.


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