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Old 11-05-2005, 02:28 PM   #1
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Death Star?

I'm deeply confused. At the end of RotS, we see the Death Star about half finished constuction. How then, did it take 20 years to complete?

Sorry if this has been answered already. I didn't see an answer anywhere.
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Old 11-05-2005, 02:35 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Doctor
I'm deeply confused. At the end of RotS, we see the Death Star about half finished constuction. How then, did it take 20 years to complete?

Sorry if this has been answered already. I didn't see an answer anywhere.
Hehehe... There are two Death Stars. Episode IV's Death Star was destroyed by Luke. Episode VI's Death Star was destroyed by the Rebels. In Episode IV, that version was complete. In Episode VI, that Death Star was new and underconstruction!

To make you more confused: Episode III's Death Star is Episode IV's... Hehehe...


Also, it was about 16 to 18 years in timeline between Episode III and Episode IV...
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Old 11-05-2005, 02:42 PM   #3
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I know. I was asking how the death star at the end of Ep III was almost complete 20 years before ANH if they are the same one.
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Old 11-05-2005, 02:45 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Doctor
I know. I was asking how the death star at the end of Ep III was almost complete 20 years before ANH if they are the same one.
??? In Episode II, the Death Star was in blue print form... Therefore, one could conclude they started construction in between Episode II and III.

It didn't take 20 years to complete. If there is four years in between Episode II and III, and they are 50% done, then it took eight years to build...Aproximate guess...
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Old 11-05-2005, 02:49 PM   #5
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At the end of RotS, we see the Death Star almost finished. If it's the same one as in ANH, how can it take 20 years to finish. It only became fully operational in ANH.
Read my posts more carefully, please.
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Old 11-05-2005, 02:51 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Doctor
At the end of RotS, we see the Death Star almost finished. If it's the same one as in ANH, how can it take 20 years to finish. It only became fully operational in ANH.
Read my posts more carefully, please.
Actually, you crossed Episode IV with Episode VI... In Episode VI, there were comments made about Death Star II.

Last edited by MacLeodCorp; 11-05-2005 at 03:19 PM.
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Old 11-05-2005, 02:59 PM   #7
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Have you seen RotS? I will try to type in simple words:
At the end of the THIRD movie (in chronological order, not order of production), we see the Death Star almost fully built. It is the same on as in the FOURTH movie.
In the FOURTH movie, we are told that the Death Star has just reached completion.
How did it take 20 years (the gap between the THIRD and FOURTH movies) to finish construction.
The Death Star was built to be a weapon. The laser wasn't a "refit".
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Old 11-05-2005, 03:29 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Doctor
How did it take 20 years (the gap between the THIRD and FOURTH movies) to finish construction.
It's really big?


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Old 11-05-2005, 03:32 PM   #9
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It was 3/4 of the way finished in RotS. It couldn't have been hidden for 60 years to get to that point. It shouldn't have taken 20 years.
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Old 11-05-2005, 03:34 PM   #10
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I don't think it was 75% done in RotS. Maybe 50%...


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Old 11-05-2005, 03:37 PM   #11
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Still, it shouldn't have taken that long to finish. If you're right and it was 50% done, then did it take 20 years to get it half way finished? It doesn't make sense.
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Old 11-05-2005, 04:06 PM   #12
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Well I'm sure the frame was the easiest part to get built. It probably got more complicated after that.


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Old 11-05-2005, 04:11 PM   #13
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It's far from being completed in RotS...

So it's very plausible it would have taken 10, 15 or even 20 more years to finish.
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Old 11-05-2005, 04:27 PM   #14
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If you include the EU, perhaps it's the prototype mentioned in the "Jedi Academy" trilogy? If I remember correctly, it was only the "skeleton" with the laser.
Or they encountered some unexpected difficulties (sabotage?) during the construction ...

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Old 11-06-2005, 05:22 AM   #15
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It's fine and dandy if it took 20 years to build. Hey, the thing's huge!

But then how do they explain why they can build a much BIGGER deathstar in a much shorter period (less than a year, between ESB and ROTJ)??


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Old 11-06-2005, 05:30 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
But then how do they explain why they can build a much BIGGER deathstar in a much shorter period (less than a year, between ESB and ROTJ)??
And that's why I think it could be a prototype (for testing the laser or something like that). Hey, there's almost always a prototype before you build the final product.

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Old 11-06-2005, 07:47 AM   #17
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I have this theory, but whoever forwards it to Lucas will get eternally flamed and scarred.

There might have been another trilogy between Ep3 and 4, where someone destroyed the DS. Another one was built and that too was boomed. Then the third was made and to cover up the whole issue, the Empire pretended that it's the first one.

Possible...


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Old 11-06-2005, 08:07 AM   #18
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Only question is, why did they need to build the prototype so huge?

Continually blowing up the thing sounds corny, like just the sort of thing you'd see in some cheesy EU storyline.


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Old 11-06-2005, 04:07 PM   #19
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I'd say it's pretty safe to assume that politics got in the way during construction. The "Rebel" Senators put up a fight in the Senate, petition to stop construction, do whatever they can to delay progress, you get the idea.

Then with the second Death Star, there's no one to slow them down anymore, with the Senate dissolved and all. So it only takes a few years.
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Old 11-06-2005, 04:43 PM   #20
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There was 25% of Death Star in ROTS at most, you don't remember it very well Doctor.



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Old 11-06-2005, 05:19 PM   #21
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I'm sorry, but that pic above is not the one I'm thinking of. I'm thinking of the one where Vader and Sidious are looking out through the bridge window at the Death Star. In that scene, the Death Star was at least 50% complete.
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Old 11-06-2005, 05:26 PM   #22
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Nope, the Death Star looks even less complete in ROTS than the above picture. It was in the earliest stages of construction, it was merely a frame.

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/dvd/rots~/GW3.jpg



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Old 11-06-2005, 06:40 PM   #23
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Taking the EU into account, there are 3 Death Stars. The prototype frame with a crappy laser, it was made in a secret base by slave wookies and was smaller (I suppose that's the Ep. III one), the Ep. IV one, and finally the Ep. VI one, that was faster to build cause they already knew how and made it once.

Even if it is only the prototype at the end of RotS, or the frame of the final one, I'd say it's 15% done, maximum. It's only the frame, and I could bet the laser isn't operational.
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Old 11-06-2005, 06:47 PM   #24
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has anyone watched the dvd commentary yet? lucas says in it that it is kinda odd that it takes so long, but there are supply problems and union strikes and stuff like that. He was probably just joking, but it take straight from the mouth of george lucas himself.

also, i think that after you build one you know how its done, so it is plausable that the DS2 could have been built in only a few years. But i do like the idea of the prototype.

Hmmm, one last theory is that if anyone's played KOTOR2, then they will know that
spoiler:
the citadel station nearly falls out of orbit because of a lack of fuel.
perhaps if the rebels made the fuel shortages, then the DS could have the same problem and they need to rebuild.

It's kinda unlikly, but its a possibility. I bet there will be EU all over the place about why it took so long.


IM NOT GOING TO BE ON THE FORUMS VERY OFTEN NOW! I MIGHT BE ON TIME TO TIME, BUT IVE BASICLY GIVEN UP THE FORUMS NOW!!!!

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Old 11-06-2005, 09:15 PM   #25
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This definately changes the old EU explanation that it was built with slave labor (if not Wookiee slaves, then slaves from that prison planet that was destroyed as a "test" of the weapon's power after it was built). It's not like slave workers have much collective bargaining power, after all!

Personally I think Lucas just really wanted to put the Death Star into the prequels (he couldn't help himself in AOTC) but didn't really think the implications for the rest of the saga through. Oh well. We're stuck with it now.


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Old 11-07-2005, 12:57 AM   #26
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Look, its really easy

1: Death Star planned out. Frame built. Rooms and walls constructed. Armor plated. Calibrated all devices(EVERY.SINGLE.COMPUTER on board had to be calibrated). Raising money to do all of that. A shield generator strong enough to encapsulate a small moon. It makes sense that it could take 20 years. Maybe more.

2: Death Star destroyed. That damn Skywalker boy ****ed the empire out of trillions of dollars. What are they left with? Scrapes and a broken frame. Damn it, Vader: Your boy is a pain in the Emporer's ass!

3: Death Star 2 construction begins. They've already done this before, so they know exactly how much its going to take in terms of manpower, money, and technical calibration. It's entirely feasable that it could be rebuilt in 10 years or less - if it was completely finished. But as we all know, huge sections were missing from DS2. It was basically just the laser and the required mechanisms. Nothing special. Which is why it only took 4 years the second time around.
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Old 11-07-2005, 01:38 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Doctor
I'm deeply confused. At the end of RotS, we see the Death Star about half finished constuction.
Uh, no we don't, we see the skeletal structure half finished.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
It's fine and dandy if it took 20 years to build. Hey, the thing's huge!

But then how do they explain why they can build a much BIGGER deathstar in a much shorter period (less than a year, between ESB and ROTJ)??
Ever build the lego Star Destroyer? It takes about 10+ hours to build the first time, second time it takes about an hour or two tops.


Plus as Prime said last time this was brought up, "Perhaps they had to jump through the political hoops since the senate had yet to be disbanded."
So yeah...


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Old 11-07-2005, 02:49 AM   #28
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1. What we see at the end of ROTS is far from finished. It's the frame, basically. Maybe 20% of the Death Star itself.

2. The first part (the frame) is the easy part. Which job would you rather have?
Build a big ball with a dent in it
or
Fill a big ball with it's own functioning power source, shielding, propulsion, defenses, life support, crew, and furniture, droids, ships, machines, and computers.
Which do you think would take longer?

3. The second time around, the DS was way easier to make. For the first one, not only was it the first one ever, nothing like it had ever been built before. The Senate was in existance, and the empire was on the rise, not already totally dominant. Plus, it had to be kept a secret (moreso than the second). For the second one, it only took a few Bothans to figure it out. For the first one, no one knew anything about it until "OH S**T they blew up Alderaan!"
The second time around, they'd already built one so they knew how to do it, they'd encountered the problems in construction, they know just how to get what they need, there is no possible senate interferance, and hiding it isn't as hard. The biggest concern of the Empire was the Rebellion, who at that time were on the run.


Basically, it all works out.


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Old 11-07-2005, 06:06 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JawaJoey
For the first one, no one knew anything about it until "OH S**T they blew up Alderaan!"
Actually, it seems most people DID know about the first Death Star. Probably didn't know that the thing could blow up entire planets, though.
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Old 11-08-2005, 07:01 AM   #30
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Really? Where do you have that from?


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Old 11-08-2005, 10:31 AM   #31
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Because it seems the Rebels all know it, and considering that the Death Star was built by slave labor (Geonosians, Mustafarians, Utapauns, and of course WOOKIEES!) So it seems to me that it was no secret.
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Old 11-08-2005, 11:17 AM   #32
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Um, the Death Star was NOT close to being finished. Actually, the first time I saw ROTS, I thought that they had the Death Star black; I didn't realize that the black spots were places I was looking through the station. It was very far away from being done.

And I think most, especially the rebels, knew about the Death Star. The rebels sent spies out to get the readouts of the battle station, so they knew it was there. I think the destruction of Alderaan just kind of "woke up" the rest of the galaxy, and caused everyone to realize what the DT could actually do.
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Old 11-08-2005, 12:04 PM   #33
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The first one was built when Palpatine still didn't not have complete control. The Senate still existed and we know there was some resistance. Politicians were still greedy and the beauracracy was still slow. So it is very likely that there were delays from supply and labor problems, protests, and the like. By ROTJ the Senate had been abolished and the Emperor had absolute control over everything. The "wheels" as it were would have been much greasier for him at that time...

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Old 11-08-2005, 01:57 PM   #34
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Lucas knows us SW fans LOVE to resolve inconsistencies and plot holes through arguing. This was just his final gift to us...


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Old 11-08-2005, 02:04 PM   #35
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Quote:
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Uh, no we don't, we see the skeletal structure half finished.

Ever build the lego Star Destroyer? It takes about 10+ hours to build the first time, second time it takes about an hour or two tops.

Plus as Prime said last time this was brought up, "Perhaps they had to jump through the political hoops since the senate had yet to be disbanded."
So yeah...
There are some problems with the lego analogy (you're saying it's easier the second time because you know how): first off, the massive difference in scale (not quite so bad if you accept the less accurate official figure of a 160 km station instead of "500 miles" as intended by the original model designers). So from 120 km to 160 km (or 160 km to about 900 km).

Then there's the problem of having to build larger and more powerful technologies to power it (shields, propulsion, power generation, defenses, superlaser). Scaling up the tech isn't just a matter of more metal, you also have to deal with larger scale power or more generators (however it happens to work), more defenses and life support, structural integrity, more computer systems, more trained personel/droids, etc.

Plus, unless all that junk was salvagable from the first explosion, you're still going to have to harvest and process all those materials required. It isn't simply a matter of (as in your lego analogy) taking it appart and building it a second time in the exact same manner from the same parts.

So the analogy would only work if they were disassembling the first death start and building an identical station from its parts.

The political angle makes a bit more sense as an excuse...

Though both stations were supposedly built in secret... even though in the case of the second the Emperor deliberately leaked the information to spies so as to use it as bait for his elaborate trap for the Alliance.

As far as the technology is concerned, remember those beam weapons on the LAAT's in AOTC? They act like mini-death stars! A bunch of green beams form into one larger beam and spews out destruction. Just scale that up many many times, with the power generation and waste heat regulation to back it up... build a mobile starbase around it and you have the Death Star! So I'd say it's not really a new technology, just a new application of an existing one, on a much larger scale...


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Old 11-08-2005, 02:15 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Lucas knows us SW fans LOVE to resolve inconsistencies and plot holes through arguing. This was just his final gift to us...
If I was a filmmaker, I know I'd do it to us all the time.

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Old 11-08-2005, 02:59 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
There are some problems with the lego analogy (you're saying it's easier the second time because you know how): first off, the massive difference in scale (not quite so bad if you accept the less accurate official figure of a 160 km station instead of "500 miles" as intended by the original model designers). So from 120 km to 160 km (or 160 km to about 900 km).
The difference in scale is of no matter, just change hours to years or so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Then there's the problem of having to build larger and more powerful technologies to power it (shields, propulsion, power generation, defenses, superlaser). Scaling up the tech isn't just a matter of more metal, you also have to deal with larger scale power or more generators (however it happens to work), more defenses and life support, structural integrity, more computer systems, more trained personel/droids, etc.
Which still doesn't do anything, they can develop all the tech at the same time as when they're building, as you said in an advanced universe such as the one in Star Wars, surely it'd be possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Plus, unless all that junk was salvagable from the first explosion, you're still going to have to harvest and process all those materials required. It isn't simply a matter of (as in your lego analogy) taking it appart and building it a second time in the exact same manner from the same parts.
My analogy works well with brand new parts. *has a blue Star Destroyer made from the aqua lego sets from the mid 90's*
You don't have to disassemble, hell you can scale it up, it's just a matter of figuring out measurements, which takes about 5 minutes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
So the analogy would only work if they were disassembling the first death start and building an identical station from its parts.
Not exactly.

But anyway, if I recall the Death Star's structure was finished quite a bit before ANH, it was just they hadn't got the weapons systems up until the beginning of the movie. So perhaps they finished it rather fast but due to senate intervention they were delayed on the weapons system.


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Old 11-08-2005, 06:15 PM   #38
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Ok, so I was wrong.
I guess I need to see RotS again already if I forget a detail like that
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Old 11-08-2005, 07:54 PM   #39
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Don't feel too bad Doctor, it's a very short scene right near the end with no dialouge or action. Easily forgettable...

Well the trouble again with the Lego analogy is that a Lego toy is just a mass of plastic. It's not (at least not at the scale we're talking) subject to the vast structural stresses that a 160 or 900 km space station is subject to.

Even if you were to build your Lego ship, and then turn around and build another Lego ship that was six times larger, in 1/20th the time... it's still not the same. It doesn't have any active systems (correct me if I'm wrong) such as hyperdrives, shields, turbo lasers, engines, life support, etc, that need to ALSO be scaled up with the station. That's a massive technological hurdle, not just in building them but also in designing them. It's like the difference between building a one story brick house and building a skyscraper. Sure you have similar principles but many other factors relating to sheer size. It's not just a matter of more materials.

We're still left with the fact that it took 20+ years to build the first death star, and less than one to build the second, larger "more powerful" death star.

So it's not like building the same thing a second time. It's more like building a whole different 'nothing animal entirely (even if some of the basic technology is the same, you have to introduce new knowledge in order to manage the vast difference in size). Of course it's much easier if you go with the "official" numbers of the second DS "only" being 1.4 times bigger...

Some have argued that they were both started at the same time. We have no evidence in the films they did that, but then we don't have any real evidence in the film for any of the explanations offered so far. Lucas's off hand comment is thus as good an explanation as any. Don't mind us who might find it somewhat unsatisfying, of course.

My comments about SW being a technological advanced universe still stand. My contention is that it's odd that it takes this technologically advanced universe 20 years to build the first deathstar, but suddenly they jump to only one year to build a larger more powerful one. That implies either a huge leap in technology or something else we're not being told. Had Lucas simply left out the scene we wouldn't have this problem. Or if he'd put the words "18 years later" in the frame or something, that would have done fine too (the only problem then being Tarkin's lack of gray, but I'm sure Lowry Digital could do that in their spare time if asked, lol).


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Old 11-08-2005, 08:45 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Kurgan
As far as the technology is concerned, remember those beam weapons on the LAAT's in AOTC? They act like mini-death stars! A bunch of green beams form into one larger beam and spews out destruction. Just scale that up many many times, with the power generation and waste heat regulation to back it up... build a mobile starbase around it and you have the Death Star! So I'd say it's not really a new technology, just a new application of an existing one, on a much larger scale...

You just argued that making a bigger Death Star is a huge increase in difficulty and effort over a normal Death Star. You can't turn around and say that Death Star tehcnology was known and simple because the weapon firing system has been seen before.

I think that the difference between the weaponry of a gunship or artillery and a space station capable of destroying a planet is a bigger gap than the difference between a space station and a bigger one.

New application of an existing one is exaclty what making a bigger Death Star is, but you're aruging that the undertaking of a bigger Death Star is vastly more significant.


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