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Old 10-31-2005, 10:45 PM   #1
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Obi-Wan Close to the Dark Side?

Did you ever notice that when Darth Maul kills Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan attacks him, he looks as if he's allowed his anger to control him? Could he have fallen to the Dark Side if Qui-Gon had been dead by the time Maul was, meaning Qui-Gon wouldn't be able to console Obi-Wan before his death?
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Old 11-01-2005, 01:46 AM   #2
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I think Obi-Wan was tempted by the dark side, he certaintly sometimes has trouble controlling himself. I think that in the EU material he almost falls to the dark side following Siri Tachi's death, or something like that.
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Old 11-04-2005, 07:53 PM   #3
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He was still only a Padawan, not fully in control of his emotions. His anger over the defeat of his Master made it possible to use the force and his Masters lightsaber to defeat Maul.



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Old 11-04-2005, 08:16 PM   #4
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I think it says in the Databank that because he allowed his anger to take him and the Dark Side to fuel him, even the slightest, is what allowed him to defeat Maul.
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Old 11-04-2005, 08:16 PM   #5
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^

That's a good explanation. He wasn't fully trained to let go of his emotions, so probably when he saw Qui-Gon die, he let his anger take over. But I don't think he was close to falling to the Dark side. He still hated it.

Actually, it seems Obi-Wan never fully seemed to lose his emotions as is the Jedi way, as you can see in RotS, he cares so much for Anakin, calling him a brother, and saying that he can't go and fight him because he cares too much for him. But that's just how I see it. Obi-Wan still pwns all.


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Old 11-04-2005, 11:41 PM   #6
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^ He better not have hated the Dark Side. The hate of the Dark Side leads to it.
I guess Kain's explanation does make sense.
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Old 11-08-2005, 03:56 AM   #7
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C'mon. Obi's master, his greatest friend was slashed and murdered before his eyes. Even the greatest of master would get DS feelings from that and Obi was just an apprentice back then. Some things of the dark side and the Force are involuntary and irresistible. Like attachments to people and things. Even a Jedi loves his master, the Force and his lightsaber.


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Old 11-17-2005, 07:40 PM   #8
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I remeber reading that Obi-Wan tapped into the dark side to defeat Maul, using an overly aggressive saber style.


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Old 12-12-2005, 05:13 PM   #9
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one can be aggressive without anger. obi wan used an aggressive tactic to lul maul into a sense of complacency. in fact, maul looked damned surprised to see obi wan fly over his head. I dont even think he saw him swipe up the saber. true, he may have tapped into the Dark Side to give him strength, but the Dark Side, in a whole, is what the avoidance was and not its understanding and use.

giving yourself fully to the dark side is what they sought against. personally, I think they all stood in the middle ground but more over to the light side. Fully belonging to the Light Side could make one just as dangerous as someone belonging to the dark side. in fact, throughout history, more people have been killed in the name of goodness than have ever been due to evil. I had even read someplace that the style of saber practice windu used tapped into the dark side...maybe thats why he was so melodramatic...har.


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Old 12-13-2005, 09:15 AM   #10
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perhaps obi-wans anger rubbed off on anikin a little


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Old 12-13-2005, 09:48 AM   #11
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It's a common thread through the movies. Luke's flirtation with anger is what lets him defeat Vader in ROTJ.

The difference is that they (Luke and Obi-Wan) pull away from it, while Anakin totally immersed himself in it and let it consume him.

An interesting thing in the ROTS book was the descriptions of Mace Windu's fighting style being very tapped into the dark side, which is what let him hold his own against Palpatine. Maybe that's why his sword is purple: half red/ half blue crystals (I mean, other than Sam Jackson's just wanting to look cool, that is.)


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Old 12-13-2005, 06:01 PM   #12
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It's Samuels wanting to look cool really, but the SW explanation is that whole edge of the darkside thing. He didn't just hold his own against Palpatine he defeated him.



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Old 12-14-2005, 08:49 AM   #13
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kinda off topic but if you wath rotj you will see luke uses a type of force choke on the 2 gammorean guards and also threatens to kill jabba, thats quite dark, oh and he wears black robes like anikin,


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Old 12-14-2005, 09:42 AM   #14
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Just because he has black robes doesn't mean he uses the dark side, the only Jedi he saw was Yoda and Obi-Wan, he wouldn't have known anything about Jedi robes.



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Old 12-14-2005, 07:50 PM   #15
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over 50% of the the ways to defeat a dark jedi is by partially comming to the darkside(Obi-Won vs. Maul)(Anakin vs. Dooku Part 2)(Windu vs. Sidious)(Luke vs. Anakin/Vader). With these facts from the movies it is very true that most of the Dark Jedi defeated by the Light Jedi are killed through a slight passage to the dark-side. To note as well that Obi-Won supposedly jumped out of a bottomless pit in order to defeat Maul. Robes are meaningless as well in terms of light/dark sides because they are just material objects verses the emotional play in order to defeat one an other(Jedi vs. Sith).



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Old 12-15-2005, 03:04 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MachineCult
Just because he has black robes doesn't mean he uses the dark side, the only Jedi he saw was Yoda and Obi-Wan, he wouldn't have known anything about Jedi robes.
Luke wears a "Jedi robe" (or maybe more properly a desert robe, but it's brown) in ROTJ when he arrives at Jabba's. Of course it makes sense to wear a robe for protection from the weather in such an environment. It wasn't until the prequels that we learned that most of the Jedi dress like Tatooine natives (well that started to change in Episode II and III, but still). Luke just had his own style. The black clothing was supposed to be a hint by Lucas that Luke was becoming more and more like Vader, whether he realized it or not (robot hand, fighting power, dark clothes, etc). Of course he loses the rob at the palace and we never see him with it onscreen again...

Mace's purple lightsaber has nothing to do with the darkside whatsoever. Why would a "dark side" tinged person have a purple lightsaber? Because red + blue make purple? Why not green + red to make brown?


And yes, in Episode II and III we start to have Jedi who wear black and yet with no hint that they're evil (so we won't think Luke wore black and unwittingly wore Sith colors). Plus Lucas broke his own rule with Episode III by giving Grievious green and blue lightsabers, and Anakin a blue saber even after he'd joined the Sith. Not that I'm saying that's a bad thing, just pointing it out!


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Old 12-15-2005, 06:17 AM   #17
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lol, well i don't think Anakin really had enough time to make a red Lightsaber, and anyway he was probably happy with the one he had at the time.



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Old 12-15-2005, 03:52 PM   #18
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True, but Lucas could always have found an excuse to give him a red one. For example, we know Palpatine had at least two lightsabers in his possession, so he could have given one to Anakin.

It may be that the Jedi just naturally associated red with Sith (we have no indication in the films that this is so however), and so to help hide the fact that Anakin had become a Sith he didn't bother during the Purge... maybe.

Frankly I'm glad he didn't instantly have red when he faced Obi-Wan and killed the other Jedi, it would have been too convenient, but then again, it doesn't seem like there was any reason not to in-universe wise other than he forgot or didn't have time (Palpatine hadn't fought Yoda yet, so he could have given his spare to Anakin, unless he foresaw that he needed it... but remember he seemed surprised that Yoda was still alive later).


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Old 12-15-2005, 03:58 PM   #19
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Anakin had to fight Obi-Wan with the blue saber for the simple, yet somewhat inconvenient fact that Ben Kenobi later had that saber in his possession to give to Luke.


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Old 12-16-2005, 03:44 PM   #20
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Ah yes, both following and breaking continuity in the same stroke! I guess he had no choice...


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Old 12-16-2005, 03:52 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Plus Lucas broke his own rule with Episode III by giving Grievious green and blue lightsabers, and Anakin a blue saber even after he'd joined the Sith.
I dont understand how he broke the rule with grievous? we know his sabers were taken from jedi he had killed.

And well i guess with Anakin he really didnt have time to construct a new saber and his last task before becoming a full dark lord was disposing of the seperatists so it was probably on his return from mustafar palpatine would've given him a new saber but obi wan got to him first.


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Old 12-16-2005, 06:52 PM   #22
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He used his saber....it just so happen to be blue. why would he even have to deviate from that color if i wasnt inclined too.

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Old 12-16-2005, 09:09 PM   #23
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SPeaking of which, isn't Obi kinda try to date this femme Jedi or something, whats her name again?>

Well, Don't know bout yoda but DS does work well in combat better than LS. Though a well trained jedi seem to be able to control the anger (whatever that means).

As for the Sith = Red Saber thingy, I don't think its a tradition of sith or something, don't think there is a Sith Tradition of saber dress code (hack, bladeborns don't even use sabers).

That having said I do think Jedis seem to shy away from the red crystals, for reason unknown.
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Old 12-16-2005, 09:11 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Terros
I dont understand how he broke the rule with grievous? we know his sabers were taken from jedi he had killed.
The "rule" according to Lucas is "Good guys use blue or green sabers, and bad guys use red sabers." He makes one exception for Mace Windu because Sam Jackson requested a purple saber for his character. So Grievious is either a good guy, or Lucas has clearly broken his rule here!

Quote:
And well i guess with Anakin he really didnt have time to construct a new saber and his last task before becoming a full dark lord was disposing of the seperatists so it was probably on his return from mustafar palpatine would've given him a new saber but obi wan got to him first.
He didn't have to construct one, Palpatine could have given him a red one after he named him Darth Vader. Does a Sith need to construct a lightsaber of his own or does his master need to give him one? I'm saying if they wanted Anakin to use a red lightsaber in ROTS Lucas could have easily done so without violating continuity or believability, he just chose not to.

Inserting a scene of Palpatine handing a new red lightsaber to Anakin wouldn't have intruded or hurt anything. We know he has spare sabers. We know the Jedi stock spare sabers too (which is why they could toss Obi-Wan and Anakin new sabers on Geonosis). Acquiring a new lightsaber isn't a life-changing event in the Prequels. They could even have just had Anakin with a red lightsaber in the fight and never explained it, and we still could have surmised that he had gotten it from Palpatine. Likewise the scene in ANH with Obi-Wan giving Luke "your father's lightsaber" is full of half truths anyway (Anakin never wanted his son to have it when he was older with Owen objecting). The red lightsaber could have been lost on Mustafar. Obi-Wan could have just kept one of Anakin's spares and given it to Luke with the made up story. It's really no more of a stretch.

Anakin himself says that Palpatine is now his "master" and he will "do whatever you ask." So if Palpatine asked him to use a red lightsaber, I think he'd obey. He's already agreed to murder dozens or hundreds of people for him, what's to stop him from using a cosmetically different weapon?

I'm fine with the scene as it is now, I'm just saying there's no reason to assume it HAD to be the way we saw it. Just like they could have given Grievous four red lightsabers. The movies say nothing about him killing Jedi (the one scene that shows him killing a Jedi is a simple execution, and non-canonical anyway). How did Grievious start out? How did he kill Jedi with no lightsabers? He obviously had to start with some, so he could have built them himself, stolen them, gotten them from Dooku, etc. Again, this could easily have been done and not created any problems whatsoever.

Lucas just decided for whatever reason to go against his own rule. So now we have bad guys who use blue and green sabers.


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Old 12-16-2005, 09:13 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PoiuyWired
SPeaking of which, isn't Obi kinda try to date this femme Jedi or something, whats her name again?>

Well, Don't know bout yoda but DS does work well in combat better than LS. Though a well trained jedi seem to be able to control the anger (whatever that means).

As for the Sith = Red Saber thingy, I don't think its a tradition of sith or something, don't think there is a Sith Tradition of saber dress code (hack, bladeborns don't even use sabers).

That having said I do think Jedis seem to shy away from the red crystals, for reason unknown.
The color thing is all Lucas. The Expanded Universe has no consistency with regards to colors or traditions. It's never really explained why they have different colors in the movies. Lucas just says good guys use blue and green (with the exception of Mace Windu who gets to use purple) and bad guys use red.


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Old 12-16-2005, 10:32 PM   #26
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Well, blue (or green) vs. red was a simple choice in the earlier films: it was easier to tell the good and bad guys apart. Like white hats and black hats in the old-timey westerns.

It might also been easier from a technical standpoint as well: before advanced CGI getting other colors to work might have been far more difficult. Before CGI, everything had to be rotoscoped and hand animated. Perhaps there was some reason why those colors worked better or were easier to work with than others. (But this is all merely speculation on my part...)

Notice before Ep.II there are no guns that shoot blue or purple lasers, only red or green. (Also, Ep.II is the first instance of fighters shooting missiles at each other: something very difficult to pull off convincingly without CGI.)

Perhaps if Lucas had had the CGI tools at his disposal now back in '77, the rules towards saber colors might have been a bit different.


As far as the in universe reason goes: I always assumed that the Sith didn't have the same access to the saber crystals that the Jedi had for whatever reason,.. or that the red ones simply had properties that appealed more to dark-side users for some other unknown reason.


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Old 12-17-2005, 01:06 PM   #27
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Ah but he had blue lightsabers back in 1977, so he could have had blue blaster bolts back then too if he'd chosen to. Likewise missiles have been in films for a long time, they aren't something that just cropped up with CG. Maybe "real world" stuff is harder to do convincingly because people know what it's "supposed" to look like. But how many people have seen a real missile in flight? Just base it off of what the majority of other movies use for missiles, and you're golden.

The Superman movies had missiles!

Also, Luke's saber in ROTJ was originally blue. Check out the trailers and even the original movie poster! It was changed to green at the last minute. Lucas did say green showed up better in front of the desert colors or something, but whatever. He could have made Luke's green back in 1977 instead of blue.
Of course before they started painting in the sabers, they were originally white, but that technique just didn't please Lucas, and the rods tended to break too often, making the sequences a lot more expensive and tedius to do.


We've all speculated about the saber colors, but like I said, no convincing theory really accounts for it all. The best one we came up with was "personal preference/tradition."

Considering the base of the Sith, they'd have access to all the "crystals" they could possibly want. If nothing else, they could raid the factory/warehouse that produces all the "spares" that the Jedi Order has.


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Old 12-17-2005, 02:04 PM   #28
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If I remember correctly: Many of the blaster effects in the early movies were made by making scratches in dark film stock, and then back-lighting it with colored gel to get the color. Perhaps using blue didn't work so good in that application. I don't know...
From my experience in working with concert lighting I can tell you this: Blue gel that looks really blue tends to block a lot of the light, so appears very dim, and you need twice as many lights to get the same coverage, or is so light that it doesn't show much of a color, and appears as an off-white.

The "Stun" bolt used to take out Leia in the beginning of the first film was somewhat bluish though, so I guess they could have done it in other places had they wished, although that was most likely an animated effect, and probably done in a different manner than the other bolt FX.

Most movies that had missiles in them back then also didn't have the sheer amount of model work, film composting, pyro, etc. that the SW movies had. I imagine that ILM could have pulled it off with model work and hand animation had they really wanted to, but it would have been just too time consuming and expensive to pull off on top of everything else that was appearing on screen.

Despite everything, budgets and deadlines still play an important part in the making of all of these films.


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Old 12-19-2005, 03:30 PM   #29
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Quote:
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if you wath rotj you will see luke uses a type of force choke on the 2 gammorean guards
thats force grasp if you play revange of the sith the game you'll see its like force choke but it doesn't do any damge unless you throw them
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Old 12-19-2005, 04:03 PM   #30
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its force grasp because good guys dont choke. whap.


as for the sabers:
im sure if vader/anakin wanted a new saber he would ahve asked for one. however, it appeared he liked his blue one and kept that one as Im sure the Emperor had more things on his mind at the time than ensuring his new apprentice was asthetically pleasing to some code of good vs bad guy motiff.

had someone asked me, had I been lucas, such a question I would have given the same or similar answer. as for Grevious:

he made comment that the sabers were part of his collection. from this we could surmise that he got them by killing Jedi or that just took them from the corpses. regardless...he had them and it had nothing to do with his alignment. Later in the film he remarks that he was trained by dooku, but that doesnt say that he had to have the red sword.


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Old 12-19-2005, 05:09 PM   #31
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What? You don't ask for a lightsaber you build them yourself! Sith Lords/Jedi Masters don't just keep them in a drawer.



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